Face to Face

[Paige]

Without getting into the full story of why I'm asking; what is everyone's take on what a face to face relationship with God looks like? Does anybody believe that we are face to face with God today?

I'm finding some resistance as to what I envision that to mean by others, and I wonder if there is validity in that resistance??

Thanks,
Paige

[ozark]

Paige,

The “face to face” scriptures can probably give us a clue on what Paul meant by being face to face with the Lord. I Cor. 13 says in Paul’s day they saw dimly, but when the perfect came, they would see face to face. Likewise, Paul speaks of this matter in II Cor. 3:

3unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

I think it is obvious that face to face with the Lord is not a literal seeing with the eyes. How could it be? Paul said that they were seeing the Lord dimly or as in a mirror in his day. Was this a literal mirror? Where they literally seeing God’s face with their eyes only dimly? No, these things are framed covenantally by Paul in II Cor 3 and dealing with maturity in I Cor. 13.

Also, in Hebrews four the writer says that they were entering into the Holiest of Holies or approaching the Mercy Seat. Was this literal? Of course not.

Therefore, I would say that face to face is a relational thing. It means nothing between us and God. When the fullness of the New Covenant came, there could be nothing veiling God any longer, thus we are face to face.

[Infinite Grace]

Paige, may I add to what Doug shared...to me it goes along with what I said on another thread about "the Face of God." Our relationship with God is directly related to our relationship with those around us. If we do not love, then we do not have a relationship of love with our Father, not on his part mind you but on our part -- our not loving him.

[Barry]

A few thoughts if ya don't mind.
The first-fruits where disciples of Christ, the image of God. They revealed in fulfillment the very image and glory of God.
Moses' face did shine with the glory of God. The second glory would far outshine the first in the face of the first-fruits.
They saw dimly at this time but when fulfillment would come clarity would show that they were perfect even as their heavenly Father was perfect in a fulfilled revealing of the very love of God.
This is what they would see clearly in the mirror.
Love fulfilled the law and caused it's glory to pass away.
What is left forever is the unveiled brightness of the glory of God in the face of the first-fruits.
They looked in the mirror and saw God. God is love.
Barry

[Paige]

Thanks for all shared so far. I'm trackin' with you all. I think also that face to face reveals no fear in being in the presence of God. For some, that seems to be saying we have lost our reverence. I don't quite see it that way. When I realize fully that God is right here in the moment with me, whatever it is that may be happening, His presence is a source of comfort, peace, security, friendship and more. I am simply living and He is living with me. So much of our lives is ordinary living, yet we don't spend those moments prostrated before God. Nevertheless, God is in that too. I see worship as how I live my life with God, not something done once or twice a week in an atmosphere of "church". Does anyone see that as being less reverent, so to speak?

Paige

[Amie]

Paige,

In my experience, folks like that claim and claim that God is not with us yet fully assert that God sees everything they (and everyone) do and hears their words and even silent prayers.

I have the feeling that God was always with humanity, but humanity couldn't always "see" him.

Before, humanity looked at one another (into the mirror) and saw themselves. Then God became flesh and the elect could look into the mirror (Jesus) and see God. That enabled the church to enable humanity to see God through them - so we might in turn do so for one another.

Can showing reverence be relational also? I mean, what if it's more reverent for us to work toward Grace in the face of God, and others to keep the Sabbath?

"Fearing God" and "reverence toward God" imo, is giving honor and humbling ourselves - don't we all do that?

My thoughts,

Amie

[Barry]

Hey Page,
A few things come to mind sis:
a) IMO we need to see such scriptures in their first-fruits context and then go from there.
They IMO would see God face to face by being the manifested "children of God" as they manifested the love of God for all. When we look back into the face of the first-fruits we see God similar to how we see God in the face of Christ Jesus.

b) A lot of what is happening in scripture seems to imply a focus upon our potential. It is however not so much our potential that is the ultimate focus but our inherent value.

The old covenant was a covenant that addressed the potential of the person from the aspect of their own independent potential. The value was a little more hidden and the appearance was the focus. Like a diamond covered with dung. The diamond carried the dung identity the appearance was the known identity and the value was hidden.

Now that the cleaning bill is paid and the washing has taken place the value is visible. The potential may not always be realized but the value is now visible through the work of Christ and the first-fruits.

The problem with Christians is that they confuse potential with value. Being all one can be for God is one thing. The value however never changes. We confuse the two because we place ourselves mentally in the interim period where such things were being worked out and being made manifest.

Potential is important but cannot be truly realized without a common value. This is the inherent problem of religion. It has difficulty justifying a common value in Grace. So it seeks to establish value through potential. This brings forth wrath and dissension and every evil thing. Through the common value of potential can now manifest itself through common equality and common brotherhood and common freedom. Things we are still learning.

What we see in the face of the first-fruits (Eph. 2:7, 3:19-21), is how God truly feels about us. First and foremost we find our common value in the love of God. And so, "When I realize fully that God is right here in the moment with me, whatever it is that may be happening, His presence is a source of comfort, peace, security, friendship and more. I am simply living and He is living with me. So much of our lives is ordinary living, yet we don't spend those moments prostrated before God. Nevertheless, God is in that too."

And this brings forth potential to live in Peace and Love. The historic revelation in the face of the first-fruits becomes a personal revelation as I look into the mirror and see beyond self-delusion right to the value of my being. That value is infinite. "For God so loved the world that he sent his only Son". That value can only be measured against God himself, and He cannot abandon himself. He just can't!!
JMO
Barry

[davo]

Victor Hugo [Le Miserable]:
"To love another is to see the face of God".

[Paige]

Potential is important but cannot be truly realized without a common value. This is the inherent problem of religion. It has difficulty justifying a common value in Grace. So it seeks to establish value through potential. This brings forth wrath and dissension and every evil thing.

Barry, this is spot on, and I think what is at the crux of the matter before me.



"Fearing God" and "reverence toward God" imo, is giving honor and humbling ourselves - don't we all do that?

I think some would say that is not what they "see" happening today. So they think a fiery sermon is what it is going to take in order to get that desired result. I wonder if our words can even produce that in another life? What do you all think? I know there are many passages that talk about exhorting, admonishing, edifying, correcting, rebuking etc. How do you see that all applied today?

Paige

[Paige]

davo,

That quote reminded me of Mother Theresa who said (paraphrasing) when she touched others she was touching Jesus. :)

Paige

[Amie]

I think some would say that is not what they "see" happening today.

I understood this question to apply to folks with the Grace view - could have misunderstood. Whether or not they "see" us doing it, it is being done. That falls to their believing us or not, which is their choice.


I wonder if our words can even produce that in another life? What do you all think?

Produce what? Reverence? Evidence?


I know there are many passages that talk about exhorting, admonishing, edifying, correcting, rebuking etc. How do you see that all applied today?

I'd say that it depends on the situation. I would exhort ("urge strongly") a friend not to drink and drive, I would admonish ("to express disapproval in a gentle manner") a friend for making the choice to do it, and I am edified ("built up", "enlightened") often by the people on this site for example(s).

I do not feel that I or anyone else is in the authoritative position to be rebuking ("to criticize sharply") one another. I prefer constructive, empathetic, criticism.

I don't feel that we are in the authoritative position to correct ("make or set right") one another unless it has to do with us. If someone said that I thought they were "mean", for example, I may choose to correct that - I'm at least in the position to do so, knowing myself.

I don't think the applications above are "biblical" however, nor do I think there are biblical applications. The 1st century church was in a position of authority - they judged with Christ.

My first thoughts,

Amie

[Paige]

I understood this question to apply to folks with the Grace view - could have misunderstood.

I don't think you misunderstood it, but I'm not sure I'm communicating all that clear,lol. I know of people who look at others (with the grace view or not) and see things that they don't think belong (the list is long and can include things like swearing, telling off-color jokes, etc), and this disturbs them. Then they start to question how having the view we have will ever produce "holiness". They perceive an irreverence, and it's not too short a jump from there to conclude that our doctrine is "false". I completely agree with your take on how we go about exhorting, admonishing etc., and when it is right for us to do so (when it applies to us).

Could you clarify what you mean here?


I don't think the applications above are "biblical" however, nor do I think there are biblical applications.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying there.

Paige

[Amie]

Paige,

LOL! I didn't finish my thought in that quote above! LOL! I don't think that the "admonish, etc" that the church did, would apply to us today because we don't have the authority they did. That was what I meant, lol! Can you tell that I was distracted?!


Then they start to question how having the view we have will ever produce "holiness".

I reckon that I would go along the lines of what Barry said in questioning how they are defining "holy". I would guess that it would be different than how you or I would.

:) Amie

[Paige]

I reckon that I would go along the lines of what Barry said in questioning how they are defining "holy".

Yes, that makes sense. For me, it really all boils down to remembering to stay in my own business and also to remember that I need to be the kind of person I think others should be, and leave God to do the rest. Does that make any sense? I hope so!

Paige

[Amie]

Paige,

It makes perfect sense :).

Amie

[Truthseeker]

Hi Dear Sis Paige and All,

At one time, I didn't feel "worthy" enough to even go before the throne of God (which can happen when one is under Law.) However, when I learned the Grace of God, no longer am I in His presence by any kind of action on my part--I'm in His presence at all times. I know it may sound "irreverent" to those religious types, but for me now, this is as natural as anything else in my daily living. I no longer set appointments to "meet" with Him--He's always with me, 24/7, even in my dreams. :) I believe this is a face to face relationship, in that He is with me always--in all that I do.

Its the most wondrous thing; something that really can't be explained--only experienced, I suppose.

As for rebuking, etc--oh yes. I do believe there are times to do that. I believe there are times for righteous anger, because while we aren't of the Bride-Class, the children (we) are reared in the Faith of our Parents.

What authority do we have? "And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together, and a mere little boy will be leader over them."

Dear ones, you are the mere little boy--you have the authority of Truth, of your Father in Heaven, as well as your Mother. This is how I see it.

When you judge (which you must do) you aren't going to burn anyone at the stake for heresy--not even with your words; you don't decide by what your eyes see or by what your ears hear, but with righteousness you judge every situation. This is HOW and WHY the lion feeds with the lamb, with the mere little boy (you) leading them. --rhonda

[Paige]

Wow Rhonda,

That was beautiful! I never thought of that verse in that way before (the lion laying down w/the lamb). I'm going to go look that passage up for some more meditation. (Sometimes people will print out their scriptures and the words will just inspire me to go back to that passage and meditate on it. :9_cool: )

We do judge every day. Each day presents situations where we must make choices that require wise discernment. I am so thankful for God's continual presence as I face each day.

Paige

[Amie]

Rhonda,

By "authority", I was referring to Christ literally speaking through them - so their ability to see into the hearts of others.

I don't see "leader" as authoritarian. "Leader", I think inspires and takes the initiative.

Love your passion Rhonda :) (and I will be pondering that verse as well - thank you for that!)

Amie

[Infinite Grace]

Yes, I agree with Amie on this one. In my thinking, "leader" is synonomous with "servant." That's where I put the whole "congregational authority" issue - in the realm of service. If "elders/pastors" are servants to the people, then I can support that. When they are authoritative, yuck!

Rhonda, I agree that we need to judge, and do so wisely. Even while we may sit here and say "we shouldn't judge," we are in fact judging - we are judging those who are judging. When we talk of "religious types" or some similar phrase (I've used a slew of them), we are judging.

The point is to judge wisely, and with all humility. Most judgment in the church today consists of one self-righteous person telling a less righteous person (in the former's eyes) what's wrong with them. It is all about control.

[Amie]

Ed,

I agree, even saying something as simple as "It's a beautiful day" is a judgment.

I'm pretty sure that you already agree that we are not able to judge the heart of another person.

We can only do the best we can based on experience (and hopefully with that wisdom and humility that you mentioned).

I love the thinking that "servant" = "leader" - awesome! The attitude is one of contribution as opposed to that control.

Amie

[Truthseeker]

Hello Dear Ones,

Yes of course, when I say "leader", I'm talking about serving. And of course "judging" isn't for control, but to "judge" (which we do) every situation and every "statement" that comes our way. As Jesus told the crowds, "Why do you not judge for yourselves what is righteous?" Learning righteousness is what this fleshly existence is all about, imo. (There is a purpose in this existence, yes? Otherwise, we'd have no need of it--and just be made perfect in spirit from the get-go--2000 years after the First Century.)

"From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks," and so yes, Sis Amie, hearts are revealed every time the mouth is opened. The difference in "judging with righteousness" as opposed to other judging is that we (who understand God's Grace) don't do so to condemn a person to everlasting destruction or torments, but to judge an attitude (a spirit, if you will) as to whether it is righteous. And often, when the little child leads, a lion will actually feed together with a lamb--because righteousness has won the day. :)

I understand Covenantal fulfillment--as to the first century and the Saints. "For Christ is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe"--its the "especially those who believe" I want to talk about now.

What is the purpose, as shown from the Scriptures for the uniting of a man and his bride? In Ancient, Biblical times, for a marriage to be childless was a curse. We understand the fulfilled work of Christ--and how all men are included. Yet we understand and not all do.

We understand because we were blessed--as children of the Union--thus the importance of evangelizing. I see a purpose beyond the Marriage of the Lamb with His Bride--children who would be born. As the Apostle Paul said, it isn't for the children to care for the parents, but for the parents to care for their children. Most parents do everything for the sake of their children--and so this opportunity presents itself to us--our Parents fulfilled all things--now we only need to share this Good News to the children. Those who would believe don't know or understand until one (or more) of the children brings the message. :)

Dont' get me wrong; I'm not saying we're to feel presumtuous in any way, but what I am saying is: I don't believe that things were silent after 70Ad; on the contrary, children were being born. Blessings--rhonda

[Amie]

Rhonda,

I reckon we can disagree in love as per judging the hearts of others :). I feel that the Saints did that, and were able to, when they were separating the goats from the sheep as per the outworking of God's plan of redemption.


I understand Covenantal fulfillment--as to the first century and the Saints. "For Christ is the Savior of all men, especially those who believe"--its the "especially those who believe" I want to talk about now.

You wrote earlier:
At one time, I didn't feel "worthy" enough to even go before the throne of God (which can happen when one is under Law.) However, when I learned the Grace of God, no longer am I in His presence by any kind of action on my part--I'm in His presence at all times.

I was ashamed before the face of God as well, and through Grace was saved.


..now we only need to share this Good News to the children.

Amen! The Gospel really is good news and really does save!

Amie

[Infinite Grace]

Rhonda,
Yes, I agree that we are the children of the union of Christ and His bride in AD70 (the Marriage Supper). This is why I still practice "the sacraments." Not for "salvation" as per the first century, but for the purpose of self-identity. IOW, I want my children to realize that they are children of God, therefore I baptize them, evangelize them, bring them up in his nurture and reverence. We take the Eucharist each week, not in a salvific sense, but to remember whose child we are. The other "sacraments" which some call "the minor" mirror other truths - being filled with the spirit (Confirmation), healthy relationships (Marriage and Reconciliation), healthy living (Unction), and service (Holy Orders).

I believe that as we practice these "sacraments" we find health and healing as CHILDREN of the Marriage of the Lamb.

[Truthseeker]

Hello Dear Ed and Amie,

Ed, that's remarkable--I haven't heard this before--and I find it very interesting. Yes, I can see how doing these things can very much help those you're bringing up in Truth to understand the spiritual meanings behind them--as well as being reminders for yourself. I haven't really ever thought of it in that way before--so let me ask you this: Do you believe that one must walk first with a form of physical worship--(much like being born under Law)--until Christ is revealed experientially) before one is "born" as a true spiritual son?

Amie, I understand what you're saying. As for judging hearts--I think there's really no way to avoid it--it just happens because God's Spirit reveals what's there from the words spoken. But when we do it, its not a matter really of doing a separating work per say--but more a matter of knowing when to move on to another where the seeds planted may actually take root. :) But we can agree to disagree on this one, Sis. Much love to you, to Ed and to all--rhonda

[Infinite Grace]

Ed, that's remarkable--I haven't heard this before--and I find it very interesting. Yes, I can see how doing these things can very much help those you're bringing up in Truth to understand the spiritual meanings behind them--as well as being reminders for yourself. I haven't really ever thought of it in that way before--so let me ask you this: Do you believe that one must walk first with a form of physical worship--(much like being born under Law)--until Christ is revealed experientially) before one is "born" as a true spiritual son?


Rhonda, the reason that you've never heard it before is that I just began working on it about 2 weeks ago. I hope for it to be a concept for a future book (as some folks know around here, all I have are FUTURE books :biglaugha: ).

I am not sure what you mean by "a form of physical worship" but I do think that we much reach a point where we recognize God's mercy and our standing in relation to that mercy. It may not occur until after our physical death, but it will happen eventually.

Now, I no longer teach my children that they need to "make a decision for Christ." I teach them that HE made a decision FOR THEM - to reconcile them to God the Father through the work of Christ and The Church in the Interim Period. Once Israel (Kosmos) was restored to the blessedness of the Royal Priesthood, the whole world (oikomene) would experience that same blessedness. If you believe it, you experience it. I've always taught my kids to believe it, so they experience it.

[christyG]

As for judging hearts--I think there's really no way to avoid it--it just happens because God's Spirit reveals what's there from the words spoken. But when we do it, its not a matter really of doing a separating work per say--but more a matter of knowing when to move on to another where the seeds planted may actually take root.

Isn't this a gift? One that I am lacking I'm afraid. It seems that I get railroaded by people just about everyday. No one seems to be the way I percieve them to be.:confused:

oh well:)

[Amie]

Isn't this a gift? One that I am lacking I'm afraid. It seems that I get railroaded by people just about everyday. No one seems to be the way I percieve them to be.:confused:

oh well:)

That's where I'm coming from Christy.

Some of the loudest, nastiest sounding people, are the most vulnerable and in the most pain inside. Some of the sweetest on the other hand, turn out to be the slickest.

I don't feel qualified to judge such matters.

Amie

[Truthseeker]

Hello,

Ed, I can't wait for that future book! I love the way you say that you don't teach your children to "choose" Christ--that he has already chosen them! Beautifully said--and please keep writing!

Dear Christy, yes, I know what you mean. Its a "gift" that only comes, I think, with experience. I've been around the block a few times, lol. Is that a good thing? I'm not sure---just a "thing" that the Lord has seen fit to give me in this life so far. Not all gifts are alike. But dear Sis--being loving, trusting, and vulnerable are beautiful qualities in themselves--and believe me, whoever stumbles such a one such as yourself (he who should know better) will reap what he sows. We must admit, that in this particular life of training (that we all must come through) that we DO reap what we sow. That's not to say we reap it eternally--but I do believe that this physical experience is like a bootcamp...and so those who would try to take advantage of you will also learn from doing so...it just may be that such a one as yourself is there to teach someone else...

Because you are beloved of the Father and the Son. Because we must learn righteousness before we are made Spirit--Free from all of the problems that come with being fleshly people, dependent on food, water, air, shelter...etc...one must be trained before he(she) can have such Freedom.

Just let me say, Christy, that being like you is being someone that is SO beloved by God that all the angels, all of God's people who know you--all who are at God's disposal will come to your aid whenever your beautiful heart is threatened. Absolutely Sis--don't ever stop trusting in Him, because believe me, He is there where you're concerned. You're one of the "little ones" that Jesus talked about--and He is there. You can count on it. Because having a child's heart (loving, trusting, vulnerable) is just exactly the heart He has given you--for a reason. There is nothing that anyone can do to pull the "wool over your eyes" because the Light is always there in your heart--don't doubt it for a minute. You're always safe in Him, dear one.--rhonda

[christyG]

Rhonda,

THANKS! I really needed those words. I've had some issues with people lately. Being blindsided really hurts. Anyway, thanks again.

Christy

[Truthseeker]

Hi Amie,

You said:

"Some of the loudest, nastiest sounding people, are the most vulnerable and in the most pain inside. Some of the sweetest on the other hand, turn out to be the slickest.

I don't feel qualified to judge such matters."

Yet you just did. :)

And both the loudest, nastiest people are in pain, and the sweetest (who you say turn out to be the slickest) are also in pain, true?

And aren't we all (in pain)?

Sis, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I just want to clarify what I mean by "judging." You can't agree or disagree with me without making a judgment.

Perhaps you're thinking of "judging" as condemning--which isn't at all how I'm using the word. I realize that whatever words I write, I'm being "judged," and that's as it should be. Many things are being considered: is this truth? is she nice? is she saying something valuable or is this a bunch of nonsense? This is what we do every time we meet someone and everytime we speak to someone--we "judge" what's being said and what it means. That's a good thing, because many times our "judgment" can let us know that a certain vibe (such as when a woman is about to get on an elevator with a strange man) is actually saying--and we may "judge" that we shouldn't get on right then.

We also "judge" statements as to whether or not they are "righteous"--and then look at the intention of the heart of the one giving them. We may see a very nasty statement coming out of a sincere heart--and it could be that the person is acting out of love (for fear of our eternal torment, for instance). Other times, a person seems to get some kind of delight from the thought that others will be forever tormented--and as you said, these are most likely people who are in the most pain themselves. We learn how to "judge" where the person is coming from so we can best love them.

When Jesus was being persecuted by the Pharisees and others, he asked the crowds (I know I'm repeating this, Sis, :)) "Why do you not judge for yourselves what is righteous?" They were looking to their religious Leaders to tell them what was right and wrong, rather than "judging" for themselves. On the one hand, the Leaders presented Jesus as a blasphemer, deserving of death. On the other, Jesus appealed to them because he had done nothing wrong--and had only done good things. Some in that day "judged" Jesus to be a righteous man--the Son of God. Others "judged" him to be a liar and a blasphemer, deserving of the death penalty. In those days, it would've been difficult--"Observe all the commandments and my leaders as I've always been taught to do--or believe what my heart tells me--that this man is truly good for healing on the Sabbath?"

Today, its true that all men are saved. But not all men do and say good things. Otherwise, we'd get on that elevator no matter what signals we're getting from the man getting on with us. We can't believe everyone, we can't think "good" about everything. We should "judge" everything that comes from everyone. That's what I'm trying to say, Sis. We learn what's righteous and what's not. And if we make a wrong judgment, we learn from it, and we continue through this process--what other reason are we in this flesh? --rhonda

[Lauri]

Hi Rhonda,
I agree with what you said. It is human nature to judge and is as you said in many cases wise to do. Maybe you should use the word discern instead of judge though because of all the baggage that comes along with word judge and all the misuse the church has done with judging. I think discernment is a word we can all live with and conveys the same meaning you are using the word judgement for without all the baggage. Any way I was agreeing with Amie when I first discerned this conversation until I read you last post and you clarified you meaning of the word judge and then I agreed with you and Amie. I know it's just a matter of symantics but It's amazing the power of words and how one little word can bring up a whole different set of emotions in two different people. Any way that's my "discernment" on the matter. ;)

Lauri

[Truthseeker]

Hi Laurie,

And I "discern" your words to be very wise, Sis. :clap2:

What you've said reminds me of Jesus' words in John 5, when he said "Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming when all those in the tombs will hear his voice and come out; those who did good things to a resurrection of life and those who did vile things to a resurrection of judgment." Its unfortunate that most translations render the literal word "judgment" as "condemnation". Blessings to you, dear one--rhonda

[Amie]

Actually I never disagreed that we judge and that judgement exists, I wrote, "I agree, even saying something as simple as "It's a beautiful day" is a judgment." My point is that we do not have the authority of the first century church, nor do we have the ability that they had in their position. We are not in their position.

Amie

[Truthseeker]

Hi Sis Amie,

I agree with you. :)

A question: What position, responsibility, commission (if any) do you see for Christians today? Appreciate your thoughts--rhonda

[Amie]

Rhonda,

Good question. Imo, we are blessed to be aware of participating in something that God put into action. I think that perpetuating love is perpetuating God and our job is not necessarily to "do" love, but to "be" love.

Do you have any thoughts on that?

Amie