What is taken Literally?

[backtothefuture]

Hi all,
As I have grown in my knowledge here of what fulfillment means, I still am stuck in what parts of the Bible are taken Literal and which are not.
Are most things in the old Testament more Literal? Lets say the Flood? I use to believe like most Evangelicals that it was a world wide thing. But sometimes now I wonder if the Garden and the Flood strictly pertained to Israel?
To make things even more confusing, I started reading the Bible again starting in Genesis. I believe by chapter six we are reading about giants in those days and by verse 6 God was sorry he had made man on this earth??
So if their were Giants than that kind of knocks out the fact that I was taught that Adam and Eve were the first humans created by God and we all are born Literally through them. Now I can see that in a more spiritual way, but still get stuck in my old theology:eek:
So, in the end I start questioning, does God even hear our prayers? Should I even pray? I have learned to see God through my heart, but is there more to our spiritual side?
I am starting to understand more I think, but sometimes I know when you post questions here, I automatically take it as literal and then after reading more I feel like such an idiot sometimes taking things that way.
Hard to get past that.
Anyway,
Just some thoughts on this snowy day in the Chicago suburbs;)
Nancy

[Amie]

Nancy,

You have the heart for this.. Why would you as a loving parent, thinking only of your children, regret having children - regret giving them life?

The "giants" are clarified in many translations as "men of renown". That's about status, celebrity, and power. So the giants are literal, but they are not the mythical thing that we read about in "Jack and the Bean Stalk".

Something that was a tremendous help to me is crosswalk.com. You can seach for words to look up their original meanings which clarifies a lot, in what way these things were intended. If you are interested, I'll write something on how to use that, and some other tools too if you want.

Amie

[Jotham]

This is just a ramble as i pass through... : )

One thing you might keep-to-heart Nancy, is that no matter what you might find in your research and studies, God Loves Us. I know you know that. Though at times through this journey of discovery as we step away from the traditional voice of the pulpit, the ground below us seems shaky at best. Don't let any "discovery" rock your faith !!!

Let's say that God created humanity and there were cultures in the Mesopotamian area centuries before a suposed Adam, Eve, or Eden?
Suppose Cain married someone of a culture outside Eden?
Suppose that there was a flood that engulfed the Mesopotamian valley?
Suppose there were American Indian Natives 5 or 10 thousand years before "Eden"?
Suppose, gasp...we came somehow, intellegently-created, from some primordial goupe?
Suppose, suppose...

None of these sink my boat. And they should not sink yours.
God is still the Creator. Still in total control. And Still in Love.

Blessings,
Thom

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Amie and Thom for your input.
This journey I am on has surely had its high points and its low. So much I still want to understand.
Amie, I would love the link to those things you mentioned.
Thom, I agree that God is Love. And in the end that is what is important for me. But Gosh, sometimes I get nuts over this stuff.
For instance, I was sitting here today and wondering, what if I never had a computer, or TV, just an old King James Bible. Would I have been able to figure out the stuff that you guys have:confused:
Why is it so hard to grasp at times?
I think my problem is, I get it when I read stuff here, but don't know exactly why!!!
Not sitting in a church anymore just taking word for word what some preacher has said has made me step out of the box and try to think some of this through.
Anyway, I always appreciate all the time you guys take to answer my questions.
Blessings.
Nancy

[Me Again]

Nancy,
I believe that it is hard to figure out sometimes because it is meant to be hard to figure out. IOW, when we do something difficult, don't we usually feel better about the accomplishment? Think about the last time you made a huge meal, with "all the fixin's." When the family sat down and began to eat, did it make you proud, happy, etc. knowing that something YOU did was a blessing to others.

Maybe something that is more relatable to you, when folks started coming to "bagel church" and getting blessed; when someone walked up to you after your time together to thank you for being there; when someone stopped to give you a hug, with tears in her eyes; didn't it make it worth it, packing up your stuff and driving over to the bagel place, even when you didn't feel like it? The tough times make us more positive that we are doing the right thing - when we are doing the right thing...you know what I mean?

So, to agonize over scripture, seeking to know what is being said, what is meant, makes that moment when "the light bulb goes on" all that more special.

Secondly, I personally don't think that God meant for us to figure it all out. He's God, we are not. He knows everything, we don't. We don't need to.

The simplicity of just BEING is greater than the complexity of KNOWING. You are AWESOME because of who you BE. We love YOU because of who you BE.

I LOVE NANCY - just who she IS - not what she knows, not what she can give to me, not what she can do for me. God made my sister, Nancy, and therefore, I love her just the way she is.

Even if you never know anything (which, I already know that you know more than me in certain things) - WE will all love you. YOU are what matters.

Does this all make sense? I hope so. I hope that I have made myself plain and not confused anyone.

[Paige]

Very plain, I think, and I will echo what you said :clap2:

Ditto, Nancy :)

Paige

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Ed,
That was so nice:biggrinbounce:
Me on the other hand make a big meal HA! Never!!
I do understand what you are saying. And I have rested more now than ever in just being and not working myself sick into a tissy about what the scripture really means or doesn't.
You all here have helped me to see not just God, but me. With all the good, bad and ugly. And I appreciate a safe place to do that.
I still feel as if I am miles away from really understanding on some things. And yet Ed, I surely have had many light bulb moments this year.
Just reading the article about Gethsemane on Presence this week, has really blessed me in such a cool way. I was able to share what I read there with my very best friend whose life is so hard.
So I guess it really doesn't matter if the Flood or the Garden or the giants and all those things are literal or not. Its the story within those things that bring us to where we are today.
Thanks all for helping me think this through today.
Blessings.
Nancy

[What is truth?]

This will probably be my last post on this board. I would like to say before I make my exit that I have studied by myself for over thirty years. In that time I have learned to question all things and I do. What I have gotten from those studies are not the things that I believe to be true but the things that I know to be true. So this is my truth.
The symbolism begins in the first chapter of Genesis and ends in the last chapter of Revelation. Jesus himself used parables.
If you do not look through that symbolism which I assume that you have applied to understand the fulfillment of all things there is no way that true understanding begining with the garden account can ever be held with in one's grasp.
Take care all,
Sue

[Amie]

Sue,

I'm sorry to hear that you are moving on friend, may you be blessed along the way.

Thank you for being a part of our lives here.

Amie

[Amie]

Nancy,

This is a bible search engine: http://bible.crosswalk.com/

In the box reading "search for", you can enter any keywords that will help you find the verses that they are found in. If you enter very common words like "and", "to", "for" etc, then the result will be hard to read. I don't know why it does that.

Anyhow, in the box reading "in", you can click on the little pointer on the right and choose whether you want to find the word in the old testament alone, in the new testament alone, or in the whole bible.

In the box reading "using", you choose which version of the bible you want to look it up in. If you choose the KJV with Strong's or the NAS with Strong's, almost every word in the results will have an underline/link. If you click on that, it will tell you the original language and meaning as well as where else in the bible that word is used.

If you check the little bitty box beneath reading "study tools", then to the right of your results there will be that word in Greek and Hebrew, as well as commentaries concerning the words. (As far as I know, no one with the fulfilled view has written a commentary, but they can be helpful at times as long as they are keeping things in context.)

The above in conjunction with understanding Hebrew thought and how a word evolves are awesome tools. Once you get the hang of the above, I'll show you some other stuff (If you want.).

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Amie,
Put it in my favorite places to go through this afternoon. Off to Bagel Church for the first time in a week.
With these root canals I have been living on mashed potatoes!
Some of the people actually have been calling me and asking where I have been. I thought that was so nice. I take those calls Literally:biggrinbounce:
Nancy

[Barry]

Hi Nancy and all,
Great points by all IMHO.
Thom said:

This is just a ramble as i pass through... : )

One thing you might keep-to-heart Nancy, is that no matter what you might find in your research and studies, God Loves Us. I know you know that. Though at times through this journey of discovery as we step away from the traditional voice of the pulpit, the ground below us seems shaky at best. Don't let any "discovery" rock your faith !!!

Let's say that God created humanity and there were cultures in the Mesopotamian area centuries before a suposed Adam, Eve, or Eden?
Suppose Cain married someone of a culture outside Eden?
Suppose that there was a flood that engulfed the Mesopotamian valley?
Suppose there were American Indian Natives 5 or 10 thousand years before "Eden"?
Suppose, gasp...we came somehow, intellegently-created, from some primordial goupe?
Suppose, suppose...

None of these sink my boat. And they should not sink yours.
God is still the Creator. Still in total control. And Still in Love.

Amen to that Bro!

Some verses are quite clear. Some verses are not, because they don't care LOL.

Neither a physical verses a spiritual nor a physical verses a covenantal, dualistic approach, will work IMHO.

Some verses don't really care because God is creator of all. Sometimes it is in the dualism that interpretation fails.

Like here:
"Man shall not live by bread alone."

Now imagine one person claiming that the term "live" is physical life, and another claiming that it is spiritual life. One sees the "bread", and the other sees the "word of God".
Sometimes "either or" just doesn't do it.

JMO
Barry

[Me Again]

You see Nancy. YOU are important to them. They called to see where YOU were. They wanted to make sure YOU were okay.

It wasn't so much your knowledge that they missed, but YOU.

We are sure glad you are here.

[Jotham]

OK, it's been at least a half dozen posts since i said this...so it's time : )
I love you all and this place that i soar on eagle's wings in the freedom of expression we all can share here!

Nancy, you are so spot on in your comment on "Where would i be without the internet" et.all. I am so with you on that! I had come to some of the Fulfilled View without the web, though the web catapulted my research to new hights. ALSO, and that's in caps for a reason! . . I was encouraged greatly by mingling with ppl like all here because i knew i was not CRAZY. OK, so i'm crazy, but there were others in the same "institution" so i felt safe. Hehe.

When i think of things like "where would i be without. . . " i just remind myself that this moment, right now, i do have "it", and so i milk it for all its worth!!

Can i say "Rejoice" in the internet? Yup, God allowed us to come up with this wonderful way to celebrate our mutual love of His Kingdom.

Blessings,
Thom

[LOISCAROL]

If The Bible Could Be Read Literally As Any Other Book, What Would Make It Different? I Agree It Is Not An Easy Chore.
*see Below To Understand My Choice Of Word "chore".

2nd Timothy 2:15-16

"study To Shew Thyself Approved Unto God, A Workman That Needeth Not To Be Ashamed, Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth.
But Shun Profane And Vain Babblings For They Will Increase Unto More Ungodliness".

In My Opinion This Is The Problem With Most, Just Reading Instead Of Studying The Bible.

Read: Means To Read Through And Understand Written Or Printed Matter. (just Like Any Other Book)

Study: Means To Gain Knowledge By Thoughtful Attention, Meditation, To Exam Carefully.

Greek Meaning For Study 4704 - Means To Be Eager, Make Every Effort, Do One's Best. Diligent, Endeavoring And "labor".

Labor: Means Exertion Of Body Or Mind. Work Demanding Patience And Endurance.

How Much Do People Really Labor When It Comes To The Study Of God's Word?

People Are So Busy With Their Everyday Lives, Not Interested In Laboring In The Word To Find Out If What They Are Told Is True.

If You Only Rely On What Someone Tells You And Don't Check It Out For Yourself, You Are Missing The "good Stuff" That Can Totally Enrich Your Life.

The Scripture Further Tells Us To Renew Our Minds With The Word, So That We May Prove The Holy And Acceptable Will Of God.

I Have Found The More I Study, The More I Cannot Leave It Alone.
My Study Is A Daily Part Of My Life And I "love It".

In My Studies I Have Learned For A Person To Have The 7 Spirits Of God, Study Is The Necessary Tool For Us To Gain Knowledge,and Understanding Which Gives Us The Wisdom We Need To Make Choices Of Good Rather Than Evil.

Happy Studying
Lois Carol

[backtothefuture]

Hi Carol,
Could you tell me what are the 7 spirits of God? I have never heard of that.
Thanks for your insight.
Nancy

[LOISCAROL]

Check Out Isaiah 11:1-2, Revelation 4:5, Revelation 5:6, Psalm 111:10, Philippians 2:5, Proverbs 3:13-15, Proverbs 8:10-11. This Will Give You A Beginning For Your Study On The 7 Spirits. I Am Also Still Doing Studies On The Subject.

Lois Carol

[What is truth?]

If The Bible Could Be Read Literally As Any Other Book, What Would Make It Different? I Agree It Is Not An Easy Chore.
*see Below To Understand My Choice Of Word "chore".

2nd Timothy 2:15-16

"study To Shew Thyself Approved Unto God, A Workman That Needeth Not To Be Ashamed, Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth.
But Shun Profane And Vain Babblings For They Will Increase Unto More Ungodliness".

In My Opinion This Is The Problem With Most, Just Reading Instead Of Studying The Bible.

Read: Means To Read Through And Understand Written Or Printed Matter. (just Like Any Other Book)

Study: Means To Gain Knowledge By Thoughtful Attention, Meditation, To Exam Carefully.

Greek Meaning For Study 4704 - Means To Be Eager, Make Every Effort, Do One's Best. Diligent, Endeavoring And "labor".

Labor: Means Exertion Of Body Or Mind. Work Demanding Patience And Endurance.

How Much Do People Really Labor When It Comes To The Study Of God's Word?

People Are So Busy With Their Everyday Lives, Not Interested In Laboring In The Word To Find Out If What They Are Told Is True.

If You Only Rely On What Someone Tells You And Don't Check It Out For Yourself, You Are Missing The "good Stuff" That Can Totally Enrich Your Life.

The Scripture Further Tells Us To Renew Our Minds With The Word, So That We May Prove The Holy And Acceptable Will Of God.

I Have Found The More I Study, The More I Cannot Leave It Alone.
My Study Is A Daily Part Of My Life And I "love It".

In My Studies I Have Learned For A Person To Have The 7 Spirits Of God, Study Is The Necessary Tool For Us To Gain Knowledge,and Understanding Which Gives Us The Wisdom We Need To Make Choices Of Good Rather Than Evil.

Happy Studying
Lois Carol

I had every intent of not posting on this board but to set back, read and perhaps learn a little something since I realize that I have much yet to learn regarding the Scriptures. However, I must add a few comments on what you have posted regarding the 7 Spirits.
One of my latest studies has been on those 7 Spirits and it is so GOOD to know that I am not the only one who has looked or is looking in that direction.
I share your "love" in my own study and find it also to be consuming.
Among other things, I am currently putting in a lot of "labor" on Abraham and how it was that Abraham followed the commandments, statues and laws when Abraham was before that time. My thinking leads me in the direction that maybe Abraham was symbolic or else someone back there had a lot more wisdom, knowledge and understanding than what I can comprehend at the present. I also know that If I "labor" long enough that I will find that particular treasure.

You have added joy to my day.
Sue.

[Barry]

I had every intent of not posting on this board but to set back, read and....
Bet you can't stay away!
LOL ROFL.
Barry

[What is truth?]

Bet you can't stay away!
LOL ROFL.
Barry

Must have been all those tel-evangelist that I watched yesterday.
:biglaugha:

[backtothefuture]

Hi Lois Carol,
Thanks for taking the time to post the verses you did. I am suffering with tremendous teeth pain, but did take the time to look them all up and read them all.
I am still confused on what we should be getting from those verses. I know Wisdom is mentioned a lot.

And Sue,
Glad you stayed around. I would be interested on your take also.
Thanks
Nancy

[LOISCAROL]

Hello Nancy:
I Apologize For Taking So Long To Reply To Your Message Regarding The 7 Spirits. Life You Know Sometimes Has A Way Of Dealing "tough" Experiences, And Is Doing So At This Time.

Before I Began Studying On My Own And By Just Listening And Believing What Someone Else Said, I Never Did Really Understand About The "spirit" Or "holy Spirit". All I Ever Heard Was The Meaning Of "spirit" Was Wind, Breath, Air Etc. I Had The Idea That "spirit" Was Something Outside Of Myself.

John 4: 23-24 Says'"but The Hour Cometh, And Now Is, When The True Worshippers Shall Worship The Father In "spirit" And They That Worship Him Must Worship Him In "spirit" And In Truth".

"god Is A "spirit" And They That Worship Him Must Worship Him In "spirit" And In Truth".

The Word Worship Has A Meaning Of Reverence Which Means To Perceive, Turn The Mind, Inspect, Examine, Get Knowledge, Understand.

In My Studies It Appears That The Word "spirit" Has Many Meanings, But By Letting The Scriptures Teach Me About The "spirit" And "holy Spirit", This Is What I Have Found.

"spirit" - - - Mind, The Vital Principal By Which A Human Body Is Animated, Power By Which A Human Feels, Thinks And Decides. Frame Of Mind, Character.

"holy Spirit" Is The Frame Of Mind And Character Of God, Which Is Given To Us Through The Word To Be Applied By Knowledge, And Understanding Which Gives Us The Wisdom Of His "spirit" In Order That His "spirit" May Bear Witness With Our "spirit". (our Frame Of Mind And Character)

When You Get A Chance, Just Take A Look At How Much Is Taught In The Word Regarding The Mind, Knowledge, Understanding And Wisdom. It Talks About Being In One Mind, Renewing The Mind, Let The Same Mind Be In You That Is In Christ Jesus Etc.

John 4:1 "beloved Believe Not Every Spirit, But Try The Spirits Whether They Are Of God, Because Many False Prophets Are Gone Out Into The World". A Popular Concept In Our World Is The "spirit" Is Some Unseen Force That Enters Or Overcomes A Person.

There Are Many Spirits-a Few Examples, Foul Spirit, Evil Spirit, Unclean Spirit, Dumb Spirit, Humble Spirit, Wounded Spirit, Broken Spirit, Haughty Spirit, Good Spirit Etc. All These Spirits Are Distinguishable By The Adjective That Describes Them.

People Can Only Know Us By Our Spirit (frame Of Mind, Character) As To Whether We Have A Good Spirit Or An Evil Spirit. Thoughts, Ideas And Suggestions Taken Into Our Mind Develops Our Frame Of Mind And Character. (spirit)

As Stated Above The Scripture Says "god Is A Spirit" And The Only Way We Can Know Anything About His Frame Of Mind/character Is By The Study Of The Word.

The Scriptures Also In Numbers 23:19 Says "god Is Not A Man" The Teaching In Our Land Today Leaves The Impression That God Is A Man.

The Scripture Teaches To "love The Lord Thy God, With All Thine Heart, Soul, Mind And Strength Etc".

Take A Look At The Scriptures Regarding The 7 Spirits And See If You Understand It Better. What Helped Me Was Looking Up The Meanings Of The Words In The Concordance.

I Trust This Can Be Of Some Help To You In Your Study. However, Please Do No Take My Word For It, But Prove To Yourself The Truth.

I Knew An Old Gentleman Preacher, Who Lived To Be 90 Plus Years And He Had This Saying:

"truth Is Not Learned, It Is Self-taught"

Thanks For Listening And Your Interest In This Subject.

Lois Carol

[Barry]

Life You Know Sometimes Has A Way Of Dealing "tough" Experiences, And Is Doing So At This Time.

Sorry to here that Lois. Will keep this and you in prayer.
Barry

[LOISCAROL]

It Me Again.

I Forgot Something In My Previous Posted Message.

Talking About "Holy Spirit". The Word "Holy" Means Free Of Carnality. Carnality Means "having The Nature Of Flesh, Under Control Of Animal Appetites, Governed By Mere Human Nature Instead Of Divine Influence And Therefore Prone To Oppose God".

Lois Carol

[backtothefuture]

Hi Lois,
How did you figure out that Holy means free of carnality? I just get so confused sometimes. I am trying to read the bible on my own. At 56 and many years of fundamentalism it is hard. I really have enjoyed all you have written. I am going to print out what you have here.
When my teeth feel better maybe I can respond a little better.
Blessings,
Nancy

[LOISCAROL]

Nancy:
Hope your teeth problems are beginning to resolve.

I can certainly understand what you are talking about. I call those doctrines I was spoonfed. ""traditions of men". It has taken me approximately 34 years to overcome the teachings of the traditions of men.

It was just like I had to start all over again. To me, I had to understand what the Bible was teaching regarding things like heaven, hell, kingdom, light, darkness, love, good, evil etc. The only way I could understand many of the Biblical teachings was to have a general knowledge of what the scriptures were talking about when I saw one of those words. I in essence did a study on topics first. I sure didn't accomplish this overnight or in 5 minutes. It took "labor of the mind" to accomplish this task.

Then what I was finding was to wonderful, I wanted to share it with my family and friends. I soon found they really didn't want to be my friend any more because what I had found by study was much different than their teachings of the "traditions of men". However, what I gained from my studies made me the "winner" after all. I am interested in "truth" and I will continue my search until my mind is gone or I'm dead.

In reply to your questions regarding the definition for "holy." As I said there are several definitions according to the context. However, in the Strong's Concordance Greek No. 40 and Greek 53 is where I found the definition of free or pure from carnality, pure from every fault, clean, immaculate.

Thanks for your inquiry.
LOIS CAROL

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
I know this is a bizarre question, but what if we didn't have a Bible to follow? Would people still come to the knowledge of God? Heaven? good and Evil? Or would it not matter?
I suppose then we wouldn't have to worry about what was literal or not:biggrinbounce:
So much to learn.
Nancy

[LOISCAROL]

Hello Ms. Nancy, hope this finds you doing much better.

This is in reply to your question "What if we didn't have a Bible?"

When we attended school, "What if we had not had a math book?"
The teacher could have told us that 3 plus 3 equals 7. Had we not had the math book as the authority that 3 plus 3 equals 6, we would have had many problems in our lifetime.

It is the same way with the Bible. Jesus says he is the way, the truth, and the life. We need to study the authority (the word) for ourselves, as we may be deceived as well as deceiving others with what we say are the teachings of the scriptures.

The scripture in Matthew says "that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man". Also, "those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart, and they defile the man".

The nation of Israel under the old system only had access to the word by their religious leader's teachings. They had no individual access to the scriptures.

When reading the word, I found many warnings/ woes that were given to the religious leaders for teaching the people things that were not true. The religious leaders would say God said this and that, when that was a lie.
Does this not sound like what we have in our world today?

If we did not have a Bible, and as so many, including myself, have not built on a foundation of truth by looking into the scriptures for themselves, then we would have to solely depend on the opinions of preachers and teachers just as Israel did.

I am most thankful for individual access to the scriptures, whereby I can prove the scriptures and not have to just take anothers view. I have found a lot of the time opinions to not measure up to truth.
I always tell anyone I talk to, "do not take my word for it", but search for yourself and prove to yourself what the scriptures are actually teaching.

Take care
Lois Carol

[Barry]

Hi Lois,
http://www.ideafinder.com/features/everwonder/won-printbook.htm

In a parallel point, where would we be if not for the printing press?
Imagine that the new age in a sense restarted history (my understanding).

http://communication.ucsd.edu/bjones/Books/luther.html

And now the idea of a fulfilled revelation of God's love without condition is likewise beginning to circle it's way around on the Internet.

We are living in very exciting times!
These things tend to reinforce and bring to application the very things that a fulfilled revelation indicates.
The printing press tends to bring forth connections. The Internet even more so.

My wife is from the French Island of Guadeloupe where I was a missionary (in a past life time LOL). We live in Ontario Canada. But several times a week she is on the computer video chatting with family and friends!
A little off topic for sure, but still it is amazing. :)

This testimony (bible) is so important to us. And we see what it is saying not a some prophecy unfolding as if we are approaching the end. No that is behind us. But rather as an unfolding of what is cosmologically done already.
Our oneness and interconnectedness is really beginning to show forth.
Maybe someday soon the statement, "we are all in this together" will be our prevalent social motto!

Just a thought.
Barry

[immortalson]

Nancy -going back to your original question on the "giants"...here is a perspective that you may find interesting.

Deut. 3:11 For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man.

Joshua and his army defeated Og, King of Bashan, and captured sixty of the "giant cities" of Bashan. Deut 3:11 (above) gives the size of Og's iron bed as nine cubits in length by four cubits in width. (that would be 18.75 feet long by 8.33 feet wide). That would be roughly 2 1/4 times the length of a standard bed and a little less than twice as wide.

This information is taken from an interesting book called The Nephillim and the Pyramid of the Apocalypse by Patrick Heron. While I may not believe in everything his opinion states, the literal facts recorded from scripture are fascinating.

Were there literal "giants" back in those days? I think so. This scripture is one of many that he uses to build his case.

Blessing, Nancy.
Barb

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Barb,
That was so interesting!! You recommend the best books to read. My daughter is a librarian here in town, so I am trying to get some through the lending library.
Blessings,
Nancy

[immortalson]

Nancy,

You said:
Hi,
I know this is a bizarre question, but what if we didn't have a Bible to follow? Would people still come to the knowledge of God? Heaven? good and Evil? Or would it not matter?
I suppose then we wouldn't have to worry about what was literal or not
So much to learn.
Nancy

You are such a pure heart, and I have told you this before in other communication. I have an opinion on your question above. I believe we don't need a Bible to know God. God is spirit. That said, the Bible helps our natural mind to reason and understand but it is the spirit in man that helps him discern. The Bible itself teaches that we are without excuse when we claim ignorance in the things pertaining to God because even nature teaches us the hidden things of God by the things that are created. There are those who are so far from civilization, who can't read or write but who inherantly know the things of God.

This was a great question, Nancy.
Blessing,
Barb

[immortalson]

Nancy,

P.S. Jesus the Christ gave us the command to preach the Gospel and I believe the gospel is recorded in scripture but absolutely not limited to it. I believe Francis of Asissi (sp?) said it best when he said, "Preach the gospel and if necessary, use words."

Blessing,
Barb

[Amie]

From Clarke's commentary:


His bedstead was-of iron] Iron was probably used partly for its strength and durability, and partly to prevent noxious vermin from harbouring in it.

Is it not in Rabbath, of the children of Ammon?] The bedstead was probably taken in some battle between the Ammonites and Amorites, in which the former had gained the victory. The bedstead was carried a trophy and placed in Rabbath, which appears, from 2 Sam. xii. 26, to have been the royal city of the children of Ammon.

Nine cubits was the length-four cubits the breadth] Allowing the bedstead to have been one cubit longer than Og, which is certainly sufficient, and allowing the cubit to be about eighteen inches long, for this is perhaps the average of the cubit of a man, then Og was twelve feet high.

This may be deemed extraordinary, and perhaps almost incredible, and therefore many commentators have, according to their fancy, lengthened the bedstead and shortened the man, making the former one-third longer than the person who lay on it, that they might reduce Og to six cubits; but even in this way they make him at least nine feet high.

On this subject the rabbins have trifled most sinfully. I shall give one specimen. In the Targum of Jonathan ben Uzziel on Numbers xxi. 33-35, it is said that "Og having observed that the camp of the Israelites extended six miles, he went and tore up a mountain six miles in its base, and put it on his head, and carried it towards the camp, that he might throw it on the Israelites and destroy them; but the word of the Lord prepared a worm, which bored a hole in the mountain over his head, so that it fell down upon his shoulders: at the same time his teeth growing out in all directions, stuck into the mountain, so that he could not cast it off his head. Moses, (who was himself ten cubits high,) seeing Og thus entangled, took an axe ten cubits long, and having leaped ten cubits in height, struck Og on the ankle bone, so that he fell and was slain." From this account the distance from the sole of Og's foot to his ankle was thirty cubits in length! I give this as a very slight specimen of rabbinical comment. I could quote places in the Talmud in which Og is stated to be several miles high! This relation about Og I suppose to be also an historical note added by a subsequent hand.

What of the worm? A giant worm too? Or a legion of worms and the usage is similar to "the moth eats" in that it could be plural?

What of the mountain over Og's head? Is this a giant hat? A mountain in the sky? Is it a mountain overhead that fell on a giant man? How large is the mountain if Og, even at 12 feet high, could have it fall on him and live? How did his teeth grow in every direction?

I lean towards this being metaphorical language as is common in the poetry that the ancient authors used. To unwravel the mystery, it would probably be helpful to look into some key words and discern their usage elsewhere by the same peoples (ancient hebrews).

Amie

I think that this would be helpful in considering the subject of giants, worms boring holes in mountains, teeth growing in every direction so that they might tangle a man in a mountain, etc:

http://talk-grace.com/showthread.php?p=11477#post11477

[immortalson]

Amie,

So what can we rely on in scripture as truth, untampered with and pure?

Barb

[What is truth?]

The key element to keep in context when looking at the "giants" is the rest of the story, Here is just a part:
Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.

If you cannot identify what those "sons of God" represent, how then can one conclude what the "giants" represent?

I find the Scriptures to be the most pure book that I have ever opened. IMHO the impurity comes from the frame of mind/spirit upon which it is viewed.
Sue

[Amie]

Amie,

So what can we rely on in scripture as truth, untampered with and pure?

Barb

I don't recall saying anything about tampering or reliability of scripture?

I think that it is important to consider the culture and thinking of a people when considering what they wrote. As well, the method of writing that they employed. Those things are helpful in our discerning what they tried to communicate. It's no different than reading any other literature.

Amie

[immortalson]

Amie,

Do you think that God intended us to have to rely on cultural discovery to understand what is written in the Bible?

Barb

[immortalson]

The key element to keep in context when looking at the "giants" is the rest of the story, Here is just a part:
Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.

If you cannot identify what those "sons of God" represent, how then can one conclude what the "giants" represent?

I find the Scriptures to be the most pure book that I have ever opened. IMHO the impurity comes from the frame of mind/spirit upon which it is viewed.
Sue

Good point, Sue.
Barb

[Paige]

Do you think that God intended us to have to rely on cultural discovery to understand what is written in the Bible?

Barb,

Thats a great question, and one that I've pondered on myself. I know you asked Amie the question, but I hope you don't mind me chiming in too.

One thing that keeps coming back to me about this question is that the scriptures were recorded for a peculiar people. It chronicled their journey/growth/discovery, and also how they related to the other cultures around them. It reveals God's unfolding plan of redemption and restoration for humanity.

What I find so interesting is that even though His plan came to fruition and completion, the bible wasn't compiled into what we have today for a great while afterward. Also, it wasn't made readily available to the masses until about 1500 years a.d. Couple that with the recognition that the common man for the most part, did not know how to read until rather recently, and it really makes me wonder just what God thought about us and the bible.

What I mean by that is that all my life it has been drummed into me how important the bible is to me, and to my "salvation." I had no idea just how many people lived and died before me without it, until recently. The thought crosses my mind that if it is so very vital to my eternal destiny; then did God even care about those masses that never had it, and couldn't even read it if they did?

Flash forward to today, and in answer to your question, I would say "yes, for us, we need/ed cultural discovery to understandably read the bible." The people it was written to didn't, as they were living in the culture it was penned. I'm sure you've heard the old adage that we need to remember that when we read the bible, we are reading someone else's mail. That doesn't negate, IMO, the need for the people of Jesus' day to discern with the Spirit what He was saying, and what He spoke through His body.

For me, it is clear that if I'm going to understand their story, I need to be in their shoes (so to speak) to the best of my ability. Their story, and the fulfillment of it, impacts my story today, but I am not reliving their story.

Hope that makes sense,
Paige

[Amie]

Barb,

Thats a great question, and one that I've pondered on myself. I know you asked Amie the question, but I hope you don't mind me chiming in too.

One thing that keeps coming back to me about this question is that the scriptures were recorded for a peculiar people. It chronicled their journey/growth/discovery, and also how they related to the other cultures around them. It reveals God's unfolding plan of redemption and restoration for humanity.

What I find so interesting is that even though His plan came to fruition and completion, the bible wasn't compiled into what we have today for a great while afterward. Also, it wasn't made readily available to the masses until about 1500 years a.d. Couple that with the recognition that the common man for the most part, did not know how to read until rather recently, and it really makes me wonder just what God thought about us and the bible.

What I mean by that is that all my life it has been drummed into me how important the bible is to me, and to my "salvation." I had no idea just how many people lived and died before me without it, until recently. The thought crosses my mind that if it is so very vital to my eternal destiny; then did God even care about those masses that never had it, and couldn't even read it if they did?

Flash forward to today, and in answer to your question, I would say "yes, for us, we need/ed cultural discovery to understandably read the bible." The people it was written to didn't, as they were living in the culture it was penned. I'm sure you've heard the old adage that we need to remember that when we read the bible, we are reading someone else's mail. That doesn't negate, IMO, the need for the people of Jesus' day to discern with the Spirit what He was saying, and what He spoke through His body.

For me, it is clear that if I'm going to understand their story, I need to be in their shoes (so to speak) to the best of my ability. Their story, and the fulfillment of it, impacts my story today, but I am not reliving their story.

Hope that makes sense,
Paige

Paige,

I couldn't've (<--haha! Double apostrophe!) said it better for sure! Well said! :clap2: :clap2:

Amie

[immortalson]

Hi Paige and thanks for the response - it gives me insight into what you believe. The reason I asked:

Do you think that God intended us to have to rely on cultural discovery to understand what is written in the Bible?

If the answer is yes, God intended for us to understand the bible in lieu of cultural discovery, isn't there a whole lot we don't know about past cultures that we will need to know in order to have complete disclosure and understanding on scripture?

Thanks - this helps me understand.
Barb

[Paige]

If the answer is yes, God intended for us to understand the bible in lieu of cultural discovery, isn't there a whole lot we don't know about past cultures that we will need to know in order to have complete disclosure and understanding on scripture?

I do think there will be more understanding as more discovery is made, just as there has been more as time has progressed to now. The way I see it, our understanding gives us more insight into what we have, but it doesn't alter what we have.

The insight sure is valuable when it comes to figuring out if I'm going to "drink the kool-aid" (literally or metaphorically), or not. That is why I'm thankful that the bible is readily available for me. However, from my perspective, God fulfilled all His promises, which makes the foundation of all I am, set firmly in place, with or without the bible.

Paige

[Barry]

Interesting thoughts here.
A lot of the cultural understandings are discernible from the "context" of the scriptures.
Without such we may tend to understand things from our modern day western perspective.

A great example of this is here in Jude:
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

From a modern day western position we are almost clueless as to what he is saying. We might envision a discussion over the physical body of Moses.
In context (Zec 2:10-3:2) we see that the topic was "Israel", as the "body of Moses".

This is one of many instances where our modern day western bias can lead to a misunderstanding.
Israel was entrusted with the oracles of God. So such things are inevitable.
The bible however is for the most part self interpreting when we look for consistency and harmony in the writings.
To make more from this than what it is would also be a mistake. We don't have to get everything "right".
Relationship is not about getting everything right.

Just a thought.
Barry

[immortalson]

Hi Paige,

I can't help but remember a story I read years ago about a tribe found in a remote part of some 3rd world country who had been visited by missionaries decades if not a century prior to being rediscovered. They had only one fragment of a page left of a bible and that scripture said (paraphrasing) 'the woman will be saved through childbearing'. So guess what they did? They had a portion of scripture and acted to the best of their ability to fulfill it so that they might be "saved."

A further understanding of this scripture had to "alter" the truth that they had~

I am thankful that we need only live up to what we have attained and that God is faithful in all ways and in all circumstances to weigh the human heart and its intent.

As for God intending us to understand culture in order to grasp scriptural implications - I think he used culture do ensure symbolism but didn't require it for understanding. Truth is living and applicable with all cultures - but must be seen then through the eyes of the symbol and type.

Thanks,
Barb

[Paige]

The bible however is for the most part self interpreting when we look for consistency and harmony in the writings.

I agree with that, Barry. Many times we have only to look at how certain terms are applied and used elsewhere in the scripture to get the full meaning of it.

One of my favorite articles out there right now on cultural understanding was written by Jeremy Lile. I'm going to provide a link to it in case anyone is interested in his take. It is titled, "A Socio-Cultural Perspective On Elements of New Testament Eschatology."

It Begins:

by Jeremy Lile
This is a slightly modified form of my TV '06 presentation. In it I discuss four elements of Mediterranean culture and how they can impact on the interpretive process.

We should first clarify what is meant by socio-cultural. We'll take this one element at a time. According to Durkheim, sociology is concerned with social facts.

"[Social facts] can be defined as patterns of behavior that are capable of exercising some coercive power upon individuals. They are guides and controls of conduct that are external to the individual in the form of group norms, mores and folkways. Through socialization and education these rules become internalized in the consciousness of the individual. These social constraints and guides become moral obligations to obey social rules." 1

He concludes that "the determining cause of a social fact should be sought among the social facts preceding it." 2

For Durkeim, sociology is concerned with historically transmitted patterns of behavior and the social "oughts" that guide them. The interests of the sociologist overlap with those of the anthropologist. As Geertz writes:

"[Culture] denotes an historically transmitted pattern of meanings embodied in symbols, a system of inherited conceptions expressed in symbolic forms by means of which men communicate, perpetuate and develop their knowledge about and attitudes towards life." (my emphasis) 3

In other words: Culture is made up of everything that people have, think and do as members of a society. A socio-cultural perspective, a least for the purposes of this paper, is interested in explaining patterns of behavior and thought within the proper system of inherited conceptions. It's thinking inside the box, culture as an integrated whole. Language and other behaviors derive meaning from social systems. As such, to understand the words of Jesus and the early Christian message, we must understand the "social facts" that precede them. Therefore, the meaning of a symbol (e.g., a word, an artifact, a behavior) must be understood by its relationship to other symbols within this historically transmitted framework. In this sense, meaning is culturally relative in that we seek to understand any aspect of a culture within its own context. 4

To read it in full, here is the link:

http://planetpreterist.com/news-5065.html

Paige

[immortalson]

Interesting thoughts here.
A lot of the cultural understandings are discernible from the "context" of the scriptures.
Without such we may tend to understand things from our modern day western perspective.

A great example of this is here in Jude:
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

From a modern day western position we are almost clueless as to what he is saying. We might envision a discussion over the physical body of Moses.
In context (Zec 2:10-3:2) we see that the topic was "Israel", as the "body of Moses".

This is one of many instances where our modern day western bias can lead to a misunderstanding.
Israel was entrusted with the oracles of God. So such things are inevitable.
The bible however is for the most part self interpreting when we look for consistency and harmony in the writings.
To make more from this than what it is would also be a mistake. We don't have to get everything "right".
Relationship is not about getting everything right.

Just a thought.
Barry

Hi Barry,

I had a question on the Body of Moses...
Your opinion is that it "symbolized" Israel and my question is, does it symbolize all Israel or to that "Body" that followed after Moses, perishing in the wilderness for their unbelief...?

Thanks for the input.
Barb

[Barry]

Hi Barry,

I had a question on the Body of Moses...
Your opinion is that it "symbolized" Israel and my question is, does it symbolize all Israel or to that "Body" that followed after Moses, perishing in the wilderness for their unbelief...?

Thanks for the input.
Barb

Hi Barb,
I'll do my best here on this one. :)
In Zec, 2:10-3:4 the Body of Moses is depicted in "Judah" and "Jerusalem".
"And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again." [Through transformation of that body]

Satan, resisted "transformation".
Satan desired for the Body of Moses to remain as it was and not undergo transformation. This transformation is seen in the change of garments on Joshua.
Zec 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
Zec 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
Such a change of garments depicted the transformation from the "self defined ego" through the knowledge of good and evil to being "God defined".

It is this transformation that the "self defined ego" authority [which stood in the precedence of types and figures to come, in the absence of a fulfilled revelation] was resisting and stood against.


This is what Peter in his ego position resisted:
Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Mat 16:22 Then [B]Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

The self defined ego thinks in circular logic in regards to "self preservation". I believe that Jesus is touching on this point very heavily in this context.

Any thoughts or insights are welcome.
Barry

[immortalson]

Barry,

Excellent thought and relay. Thanks for being willing to communicate with me on terms I can understand.

I like your term "circular logic" (because this is how I define hell) as perpetual or cyclical ramifications from ego based thinking and thus, temporal reality. I also see Satan as man's ego, the ultimate adversary of God.

I am not asking for agreement or consensus just trying to see interconectedness in thought and understanding.

Barb

[Barry]

Hi Barb,
I thought you might relate to the post :).


Barry,

I am not asking for agreement or consensus just trying to see interconectedness in thought and understanding.

Barb

Unity is not made [through our ego construct], it is realized.

One of my favorite catch phrases. LOL
Barry