Pauls mystery

[MAVETH]

Greetings.

I would like comments on Romans 11, specifically verses 25-27.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Dispensationalists/futurists say that this mystery was given to Paul to reveal that unbelieving Israel would remain blind till - "the fullness of the Gentiles be come in". To them this is still going on and eventually the Deliverer (Jesus) will come out of Sion (heaven - second coming) and establish his new covenant with Israel. You know the story:D

How does the fulfilled view answer that text?

Are there any links that deal specifically with that text? I understand that King's new book deals specifically with Romans and I can't wait to get my hands on a copy.

[Infinite Grace]

My view on it is simple. God hardened Israel after the flesh (under the law) so that he might have mercy on ALL.

The fullness of the gentiles, in my opinion, signified the bringing in of those of Israelite descent that were worshipping other places than Jerusalem. They were Samaritans, just to name one people group. When the fullness came in, then God would bring upon Israel the just due for their sins (the destruction of Jerusalem), and those who "perished" in the second death (the destruction of Jerusalem) were resurrected. As Paul says elsewhere in Romans 11:15, "For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead!" God rejected the unbelieving Jews, but after their just punishment, their "eternal destruction" in AD70, they were accepted, and this meant "life from the dead;" i.e. resurrection of the dead (Israel).

[Amie]

Maveth,

We have only just met and your questions are 'killers' ;) - "Death", lol.. Great avatar - you're coordinated!

I'm going to take a leap here, lol, if you think I'm nuts, go easy on me please :). IF the fullness of the gentiles occurred when "all Israel" was saved and at least ten tribes were interbred with gentiles and this has been completed in the past - what does that mean for humanity as a whole? The answer to that question just may be Paul's "mystery" or at least I suspect so. :9_cool:

Whatcha think?

Amie

[MAVETH]

Thanks for the responses so far...now just to comment/question


They were Samaritans, just to name one people group. When the fullness came in,

Thanks IG for the input. I did actually hear this answer from a dispensationist when it came to that one scripture where Jesus says.."other sheep I have, them I must bring in also.." Can you name other people groups?

Amy...Thanks for your input. What I don't know is this...DID the fulness of the goyish ones come "in" in the past? And how does one judge that ALL Israel was "saved" in the past?

Concerning your other point..I have no answer...except to say that Paul in Ephesians chapter 2clues in that God's grace was to be revealed for generations.

Blessings.

[Amie]

Amy...Thanks for your input. What I don't know is this...DID the fulness of the goyish ones come "in" in the past? And how does one judge that ALL Israel was "saved" in the past?

Romans 11
25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be wise within yourselves, that hardness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the nations comes in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved, even as it has been written, "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27 And this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins." Isa. 59:20, 21

The fullness of the gentiles and the salvation of all Israel are interlinked as you see above. Also above, it reads even as it has been written in reference to all Israel being saved. It had been written that all Israel would be saved via God's covenant with them:

Isaiah 59
20 And the Redeemer comes to Zion, and to those in Jacob who turn back from their rebellion, declares Jehovah.
21 As for Me, this is My covenant with them, says Jehovah: My Spirit who is on you, and My Words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your seed, or out of the mouth of your seed's seed, from now on and forever, says Jehovah.

As well we know that Romans 11 says that the Gentiles would receive the same salvation as Israel (they being grafted in).

Here is an outline of the covenant given to Israel (also in Hebrews 8:8-12):

Jer 31
31 Behold, the days come, says Jehovah, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
32 not according to the covenant that I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt (which covenant of Mine they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Jehovah).
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, declares Jehovah, I will put My Law in their inward parts, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 And they shall no longer each man teach his neighbor, and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah. For they shall all know Me, from the least of them even to the greatest of them, declares Jehovah. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more.

The salvation of Israel, and also of the Gentiles, would be the deliverance of the New Covenant - culminating at the full passing of the Old Covenant. As "all Israel" was saved through the deliverance of the New Covenant, Gentiles (all) were also saved through its' deliverance. The resurrection was a corporate happening, brought about through the resurrection first of the biological body of Christ, then the spiritual body of Christ (the 1st century church), resulting in Jesus gathering all things to Himself.

Max King has a more detailed account of "all Israel will be saved" and "the fullness of the gentiles" here: http://www.presence.tv/cms/allisrael.php


Concerning your other point..I have no answer...except to say that Paul in Ephesians chapter 2clues in that God's grace was to be revealed for generations.

Where does Ephesians 2 imply that #1 God's grace was to be revealed and #2 that it would continue for generations? I understand it to say that Paul and the saints that he was writing knew the mystery (verse 9). The mystery is imo, basically what I have written above.

Whether or not one believes that the "fullness of the Gentiles" has come in would depend on one's eschatological stance. If you believe, ie, that the New Covenant was delivered, that the Old Covenant has passed, and that the parousia of Christ was accomplished, then "all Israel was saved" and "the fullness of the Gentiles" has come to pass as well. There are A LOT of folks in this forum that are willing to talk about fulfilled eschatology I think :).

Sorry it took so long for me to reply, I lost this post amongst others.

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
This post explains my lost sheep question in the other post:rolleyes: I should have read this first!!
Thanks
Nancy