Where did the Church go?

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
Can someone tell me what happened to the church or what ever it was called after the time the book of Malachi was written to the time when we pick things up in the New Testament? Was there still worshiping going on in the synagogues? Where were the Jews as a nation? What was going on in that time in history?
Any info would be appreciated. I have just always wondered.
Nancy

[Paige]

Hi Nancy,

I think you are referring to what we call the Intertestamental period.

There is about 400 years of silence that we don't really know much about. The Maccabee's revolted against Antiochus Epiphanes in 164 BC (or approx.). We have that recorded history in 1 and 2 Maccabees and other writings.

I have a reference here at home called, "Jewish backgrounds of the New Testament." J. Julius Scott Jr. It gives a pretty thorough overview of what is known about that period of time. The Jews had religious power, but not political power. Starting 198 BC the political power in the land of Israel passed from the Ptolemies to the Seleucids (often called the Syrians). For idealogical and practical political reasons, the Seleucids accelerated the insertion of Hellenistic culture into all aspects of Jewish life. Enter the Hasidim (Pious Ones). They resisted Hellenism and were outraged that the priesthood had left the clan of Aaron and especially the family of Zadok. All this was a result of the Hellenizers. By the time of the Maccabeen revolt, Temple ritual had stopped, the scriptures ordered destroyed, observance of the Sabbath, festival days, food laws, and circumcision prohibited. A new altar, dedicated to Olympian Zeus was erected in the Jerusalem temple, and a pig offered on it. There was probably a statue of Zeus as well, whose manifestation Antiochus Epiphanes thought himself to be. The populace was commanded to offer sacrifice as token of their acceptance of the new religion. Noncompliants were punished with torture and death.

The Maccabees were joined by others faithful to tradition (including some of the Hasidim), led an armed revolt and were successful. The Seleucids offered terms to Judas Maccabees and his followers that included removal of the ban on Jewish worship. So, basically they won religious liberty, but not political liberty. This allowed them to restore traditional worship, which they did. From that point the battles became political. From that time until when Jesus came on the scene, battle followed battle, periods of peace and compromise came and went.

63 BC brought Israel under Roman rule. Many power plays ensued within Israel itself until the Herods, backed by the Romans, were given authority in the land.

I really just touched on some key events, there is quite a lot of intrigue that I left out. Hope it helps...:)

Paige

[backtothefuture]

Paige,
That was more than an answer, but a novel! I do remember reading some of what you said. So I went on line and found out some other things. What I don't understand is the Silence. Silence then and Silence after 70AD. To much silence for my liking. Also, was this time in history, prophesied about do you know?
Thanks
Nancy

[Barry]

Nancy,
what we have relied on for a long time is the concept that Jesus is going to come back and make everything alright for everyone that was faithful and destroy everyone that was not. We were kind of ignoring the silence of 1900 years by persistently hoping in each generation that the end times were almost upon us the prophecies of the end were about to or were in the process of unfolding before our eyes. We were distracted and couldn't hear the silence.
But in a sense we were happy in our own little way. We had prophecies that we thought told us about our future and about how everything was going to turn out for us.
Now that we have assigned those prophecies to a first century fulfillment we are noticing the silence.
But here is the question. Is there something in fulfillment that speak louder to us than any prophecies ever could?
I think so.
In a little article that may be posted somewhere soon I write a little about how love may tell us more about where we are going in God's agenda for humanity than prophecies ever could.
In short, love infers sharing. What God wants to do is share his greatness with us. We get a better feeling for this having been touched by God's love than perhaps words can express.
If we want to get an idea of where God is intending to take us IMO the principle of "love means sharing" tells us more than we might have suspected. It speaks louder than what we think we may be missing.
God will be doing great things with us for he will be sharing with us things of his own greatness.
Any thoughts?
Barry

[backtothefuture]

Hi Barry,
I do agree with much of what you say.For several years now,I have felt that as Christians, many of us are really back in time still waiting for the Messiah to come. That is why I started questioning everything I had been taught. I couldn't get past the fact that if Jesus came died and came back, what is everyone still waiting for. The silence has been ignored for like you say many many years. We got to busy playing church, I feel instead of being the church. And personally I think it snowballed. There is so much money and control and politics involved in not all but lots of churches now that the hustling and bustling way over shadowed the silence. And maybe the opportunity for the Lion to lay down with the lamb so to speak.
So what was God telling the world at that time with silence when no more books of the bible were written and no more prophets walked the earth? Was he angry, fed up, no one left worthy to go on? Or was the world left to make a mess out of itself? That's what it looks like when you study the Maccabees and such. And yet, the Jews managed in the silence to get the temple back.
What is it we need to get back. Or key into what is here for us now? Love? Is it that simple? Or is it that hard?
I mean, take a look at the world. Its not a place of love. But I do know even in my little world and life, there are excuse the word, Remnets of some, who want a better place and whose feet have walked the walk to the grace place.
But it has to start with loving yourself I believe. Thats why so many people hate their brothers Barry, I believe. Cause they don't know how to love themselves.
So tell me Barry, what do you think the silence means? I found grace in the silence and suffering of my life. But not everyone likes the quiet or wants the suffering. So who carries the torch now? I still want to know, what God is trying to tell us or has told us through the times of silence. Maybe the church really hasn't gone anywhere. But now can only be seen through eyes of faith.
Blessings,
Nancy:biggrinbounce:

[Paige]

Nancy,

Doug Reed (our own Ozark here at TG) has just posted an article that I'm going to provide a link to. I think you might find some very valuable "stuff" there to chew on :D

Let me know if you have any thoughts.

http://planetpreterist.com/news-2834.html

Paige

[backtothefuture]

Paige,
That was such a good article. I am going to print it out for my husband and some of my friends.
What I don't understand is if God knows all, then surely he must have seen his plan for humanity going haywire! This stuff is not easy to figure out. I have had the time and the desire to learn and study and still find it hard to explain it all the way you all seem to understand.
I mean, Jesus went through all he did to reconcile the world and look at it now?
I love history though. And articles like the one I just read just make my day. There is so much more to the story. But most churches today or ever, rarely give you any background of Gods story.
Paige, do you believe there is hope for reconciliation with todays people?
Nancy

[Barry]

Paige,
What I don't understand is if God knows all, then surely he must have seen his plan for humanity going haywire! This stuff is not easy to figure out. I have had the time and the desire to learn and study and still find it hard to explain it all the way you all seem to understand.
I mean, Jesus went through all he did to reconcile the world and look at it now?
Nancy

There is a lot of time from Adam to Christ. By biblical time perhaps twice that of from Christ until now. Is it possible that all these new truths need historical time to work out in a practical application?

If we ask, "Why has God taken 2000 just to have the improvements to civilization the we presently enjoy?"
We might ask, "Why did God take 4000 (approximate) years in biblical time from Adam to Christ? What gives here?
Maybe we are missing something about God and time and how he works on his own schedule for his own purposes. Did God fail or does he have his reasons for the long term outcome because he sees that some things must take their historical course for the greater long term outcome?
Just a thought
Barry

[Paige]

Nancy,

I agree with Barry's thoughts. The way I see it is God is not in a hurry, if we are measuring by our standards, lol. It wasn't until 1500 years after Christ that the common man was able to have God's Word for himself. Until then, he was reliant on those in religious authority to communicate biblical truth. We are still in the process of biblical exploration.

In all actuality, it is just now becoming widely known how important audience relevance and context are to understanding God's story. I think there is hope that we will get to witness the effects that that understanding will have in the larger world.

Paige

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
Paige and Barry,
I do see all your points. I guess I will think more about what I call "the greater good" My children's, children's, children. Hopefully through time, more will be revealed and the Bible won't seem like a mystery or a way of escape.
The truth of infinite grace will reach to them in a way that is acceptable and hopeful.
Thanks
Nancy:)

[Barry]

Hey Nancy.
We are not used to thinking in terms of the future. And perhaps we should not dwell too much on it either. Live for the day still seems to be valid in some ways. After all if we are not in the present where are we?

On the other hand there is a sense that God took 1000's of years to get from Adam to Christ. And we have verses like 1 Peter 1:12 that touches on this sort of thing.

So my own view is to live the best I can but live in the freedom that is a gift knowing that I'm fine when I die. God loves me no sense in worrying. But while here there is the loving of our neighbor that is next to us far from us an into our future. Might as well do what we can.
God imo is working toward the good of humanity. We are his children.
Barry

[Donone]

If the church is young, then things will continue to change, hopefully in a positive direction. But you and I still only have 70-80 years if things go normally, and some of it full of trouble and sorrow. I dwell often on the true futuristic passages in Col. 1, Phil 2 and think about what goes on beyond our physical life on earth, the silence you speak of is a life lived in faith, without sight and moment by moment commentary.

Blessings,

Donone

[Barry]

Hey Donone
"Printing Press-Internet=huge advance in knowledge"

Some consider the Printing Press and the Internet the two most significant points in History over the last 2000 years.
If you don't mind me asking, do you have any thoughts about these two "inventions" or "advancements" that relate to the topic at hand?

Barry

[backtothefuture]

So, if the church is relatively young, and the world is just about blowing itself to bits now.. do you think things can change for our children one day and the church (which by the way, does that mean you and me or everyone of Gods children) change?
Barry, you write a lot about Love. Its all your fault that I laid awake all night thinking of every song I have ever sung with the title or words in them that had to do love!!!
All you need is Love
Love is a many splendid thing
If you can't be with the one you Love, Love the one your with
She loves me, yeah yeah yeah...etc. you get my drift.
Blessings,
Nancy

[Paige]

Nancy,

I think people are already trying to find peaceful ways to live on this planet together. I came across some statistics a while back that bore this out. (I can't remember where I found them, though.) They showed that people were becoming less violent, and more humane in their treatment of others. Torture used to be completely acceptable. (Did you ever see the movie "Braveheart"?) Of course, with our insatiable desire for news, we always hear about all the negatives out there. I think because of that, we get a pretty pessimistic view of reality and it can certainly "look" like things are getting worse. We still have pockets of the world that need a lot of work, but eventually we're going to get there :)

Paige

[Barry]

Barry, you write a lot about Love. Its all your fault that I laid awake all night thinking of every song I have ever sung with the title or words in them that had to do love!!!
All you need is Love
Love is a many splendid thing
If you can't be with the one you Love, Love the one your with
She loves me, yeah yeah yeah...etc. you get my drift.
Blessings,
Nancy

Nancy,
IMHO relationship is fundamentally "the" answer. And love is what makes relationship real.
Barry