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Laren
04-13-2008, 09:54 AM
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

at first glance, this seems to be talking about the actual "physical mortal body".

what does it mean for those quickened by the spirit to have a "dead body because of sin".

and "quicken your mortal bodies" at first glance sounds like a "physical resurrection" like Jesus.

any thoughts

Laren

Amie
04-13-2008, 10:35 PM
Laren,

I think that what I have on post #2 over here (http://talk-grace.com/showthread.php?t=1186) is somewhat relevant -- do you think so? I may have some more to add but if ya don't mind would like to hear your thoughts first :).

Amie

Bible-Touchstone
05-17-2008, 07:18 PM
This is usual Pauline rhetoric. See my website to read my "Body Dead to Sin". The phrasing encompasses my thesis.

Bible-Touchstone
05-18-2008, 08:30 AM
Here are some relevant excerpts:


The Body

Bible vocabulary is evidently defined by context and careful hermeneutical precision. To avoid faulty liberalizations, uncorroborated allegories, and fallaciously appropriated speculations, scripture should chiefly and solely be employed to interpret scripture. To understand the nature of regeneration and the resurrection, a proper understanding of body should first be explicitly demarcated, to set a constancy of terms.

There are at least a couple obviously distinct semantic uses of the term “body” given in the Bible; the physical body and the body as the Temple. The Bible also characterizes a covenantal body, and a corporal unity of all believers in Christ’s dispensation as His Body, contrasted from a “body of death”. These are all related, and are often inept to distinguish. Apprehending the figurative significances by their respective contexts furnish the most accurate interpretation.



Revisiting Romans 7



Paul’s attitude of the physical body, as independently etched with sin and death (Romans 7:17-25; Job 14:1-4, 15:7-16, 25, Psalm 51:2-6, Isaiah 64:6-9, Matthew 7:11, 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23, Luke 11:13, Ephesians 2:1-5, Titus 3:3, 1 Peter 4:2-4), is complicated (1 Corinthians 2:11-16). Paul seems to understand that he must still not be psychologically detached or disassociated from his physical body (see Romans 8, 2 Corinthians 10:3-7), presumably for the reason that the physical body (John 2:21) is fixed into God’s Temple (1 Corinthians 3:16-17, 6:17-20, 2 Corinthians 6:16, Ephesians 2:20-22, Revelation 3:12), the house of God (John 14:23, Hebrews 3:6, 1 Peter 2:5). By the “flesh”, the Biblical doctrine should not to be reduced to Gnostic dualism (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7). Man was created in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26-28, 9:6, 1 Corinthians 1:7, 6:20, Colossians 1:15-18). The Godly (John 10:34-36/Psalm 82/Isaiah 41:23) image (Psalms 73:20) does not mean that humans are equal to God (Psalm 8, 57:5/108:5/113:4, Isaiah 10:15, 40:25, 46:3-5, Matthew 10:24, John 3:31, Romans 1:18-25, 3:23, 9:20, 1 Corinthians 3:2, 1 Peter 1:24, 4:11, Revelation 5:13); but those in Christ are in His image [(Romans 8:26-30, 1 Corinthians 15:49), His glory (2 Corinthians 3:18, 4:4-7, Colossians 1, 3:9-10, Hebrews 1:1-4, 10:1, Exodus 16:7/16:10, 24:7, 28:2/28:40, 33:17-23, Leviticus 9:6/9:23, Numbers 14:22, 16:19/16:42, 20:6, Deuteronomy 5:23-33, 1 Samuel 2:6-10, Job 19:9; Matthew 25:31, Romans 8:17, 8:30, 2 Corinthians 4:14-18, Ephesians 3, 2 Thessalonians 1:10-12, 1 Peter 5:10, Revelation 4:11)]. In Romans 7, Paul describes the problem of his earthy (1 Corinthians 15:49)
Of the later part of Romans 7, the Bible student encounters a doctrinal problem that has historically haunted the commentaries of the Christian tradition. An exegetical primer is necessary to identify and appropriately deal with the problem. The proper central theme is that sin in itself is responsible for our existential dilemma; by sin only, not the law, are we depraved unto death. Sin works alone through the Law unto death. The consistent present tense and redundant primary first-person pronoun [ἐγώ (egō)] starting at verse 14 of this passage seem to suggest that Paul was speaking about his then present (Romans 3:21-28, 5:1-11, 6, 1 Corinthians 6:11, 12:13, Galatians 3:22-29, 5:13, Ephesians 4:21-30, Colossians 2:5-3:25) personal experience (2 Corinthians 11:30) as a Christian regenerate (Matthew 19:28, Titus 3:4-7, Psalm 51, Proverbs 20:30), and his struggle with sin. Also as many of the great reformers have noticed, Romans 7:22 says that Paul delighted in the law of God (Psalm 1, 37:4, 40:5-8, 119:10-20, 119:32-37, 119:47-49, 119:69-83, 119:174-176) after the inward (Psalm 40:8) man. The reference to the law of God (Deuteronomy 30:2-6, 32:46; Romans 10:4-10) after the “inward man” (Jeremiah 31:33, Romans 2:13-29, 2 Corinthians 4:16-18, Ephesians 3:16-21) almost positively corresponds to the Spirit (Proverbs 20:27, Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:26-27, Zechariah 7:12, Romans 7:6, 8, 1 John 4:2-9), not only the Torah (2 Corinthians 3, Galatians 5:18, Hebrews 4:12). The reformers surmised that the “delight” (especially in this context, and Romans 6) as a will conformed (Romans 8:29, 6:5) by (Job 38:36) God’s predestination (Psalm 62, Romans 2:13, 8:30, 9:18-23, James 1:20-25, 1 Peter 1:22). The problem is that this portrait of Paul (Romans 7:23-24) does not properly characterize (Psalm 5, Proverbs 18:2) the Christian regenerate (Titus 1:15, 1 John 3, etc.) while preserving analogy of faith (Galatians 5:1, 5:13, 2 Peter 2:18-22). True, the Christian regenerate struggles with sin daily, but does this mean the Christian is still captive to the law of sin? How could Paul, a Christian regenerate, be still captive to the “law of sin” (Romans 7:6), after being baptized into Christ (Romans 6, 8:2)?

The conclusion of this problem should not be tossed in the air to the vain upshot of opinion, neither unfairly hashed through preconceived systematic theological constructions. Firstly, the scriptural text ought to not be viewed outside of its greater contextual argument of the integral dispatch to the original audience. The text will explain itself; it is not obligatory to impetuously leap to guessed conclusions over particular elements of the text. The duty here is to identify the emphatic terms employed by Paul’s rhetoric, so that the original intention of the author is preserved by the consistent integrity of Scripture.



Paul identifies these terms:



“The law of God”- the promulgated decree of God’s sovereignty embodied in the Torah, fulfilled in Christ. See Deuteronomy 30:10, 31:12, Joshua 22:5, 24:25-27, 1 Kings 2:3, 2 Kings 10:3, 1 Chronicles 22:9-13, 2 Chronicles 14:4, Ezra 7:23-28, 10:3, Nehemiah 8:8-10, 10, Psalm 81, Isaiah 2:2-5, Jeremiah 31, Daniel 6:1-5, 9:2-19, Hosea 4:6, Micah 4:1-4, Acts 24:14, Romans 7:22, 7:25, James 2:9-12, etc.



“The law that is good” – Refers to the law of God, and how it is characterized. See Joshua 1:8, Proverbs 4:2, Acts 22:3, Romans 3:19-31, 7:12, 7:16, 1 Timothy 1:5-10, etc.



“The law of sin”- The only time in the Bible referred to as such. Indicative of the reign of sin, embodied in death, established in Adam. See John 19:7, Romans 5:12-21, 6:6-23, 7:5-14, 7:23, 7:25, 8:1-4, 1 Corinthians 15:21-31, 15:56, 1 John 3:4, etc.



“Law in my members”- “Members” virtually always is a euphemism for particular body parts (individual regenerates) of the corporation of Christ. This body is a pun further exploited by the indicated passage. The “law in my members” is the law that flesh obeys: a prescription of corruption. The “law in my members” [corruption (Job 17, Psalm 16:10, 49, 102, 103:14-18, 40:5-8, Isaiah 38, 51:12, Romans 8:18-21, 1 Corinthians 15:42, 15:50, Galatians 6:8, 2 Peter 1:3-4, James 1:10-11, 1 Peter 1:23-25, 2 Peter 2:19-22); death working by sin] is positively identified to be “the law of sin”. See Job 17, Psalm 139, Matthew 5:29-30, Romans 6:12-19, 7:5-6, 7:23, 12:1-5, 1 Corinthians 6:13-20, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4-5, Colossians 3, James 3-4, etc.



“The law of my mind”- The context confirms that “the law of mind” is the schema of the “will”. This psychological “will”, is an important component to identity. As the “inward man”, it “delights” in the “law of God”, but is weakly subject to “the law of sin” in his members. See Matthew 25:37-40, Mark 12:30-31-34, Luke 10:27-28, Acts 17:11, 20:18-19, Romans 1:17-2:29, 7:23, 7:25, 8:5, 8:7-9, 12:1-3, 12:16, 14, 15:1-21, 1 Corinthians 1:10, 2:12-16, 2 Corinthians 8:12, 8:19-22, 13:11, Ephesians 2:1-8, 4:17-24, Philippians 1:27, 2, 3:14-17, 4:2, Colossians 1:21-28, 2, 3:12, 2 Thessalonians 2:22, 2 Timothy 1:7, Titus 1:15-16, 2:6-3:7, Hebrews 8, 1 Peter 1:13, 3:8, 4:1, 5:1-6, etc.



“The inward man”- This could see the personified ego, the embodiment of the mind. The inward man could be the soul as psyche. “The law of my mind” and the inward man are shown to correspond. See Job 38:36, Psalm 51, Proverbs 20:27-30, Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 44:37-40, Luke 11:40, Romans 2:23-29, 7:22, 1 Corinthians 2:9-16, 2 Corinthians 4:11-18, Ephesians 3:16-17, etc.



“The body of this death”- Grammatically refers to the captivity of the law of sin. “The captivity of the law of sin” can be seen in Scripture by other names. See Romans 6:3-12, 7:24, 8:10, 8:21-23, 1 Corinthians 15:35-37, 15:42-57, 2 Corinthians 4:10-18, 5, Philippians 3:20-21, etc.



“The flesh”- In the New Testament, most often used in covenantal context as a kind of euphemism. The meaning goes back to the ancestry of the creation story, and circumcision of the Covenant. The word “flesh” of the Old Testament often comes from the word בּשׂר (bâśâr) which can mean “nakedness”. As will be proven, nakedness symbolically refers to sin improperly dealt with. “Flesh” in the Pauline rhetoric may be seen as that which is manifested in the covenantal bylaw of judgment. The concept of flesh is multifarious and requires a general study for acclimated understanding. A general familiarity of the various usages of the Biblical term “flesh” furnishes perspicacious judgment of context and exegesis. Genesis 2:23-24, 6:3, 6:12, 9:11-17, 17:9-14, 17:23-25, 37:27, Exodus 29, Leviticus 4, 6:27, 7, 12:3, 14:9, 15:13, 16, 17:11-16, 19:28, 21:5, Numbers 12:12, Deuteronomy 12:27, Judges 9:2, 2 Samuel 5:1, 19:12, 1 Chronicles 11:1, Nehemiah 5:5, Job 6:8-12, 7, 10, 14, 19:20-26, 33:20-26, 34:15, Psalms 16:9-11, 38, 63:1, 73:26-28, 78:35-42, 79, 84:2, 109:23-27, 119:92-127, Romans 2:25-29, 3:20, 4, 6:14-7:6, 7:18, 7:25, 8:1-23, 9:3-11, 11:11-15, 13:8-14, 1 Corinthians 1:23-29, 5:2-5, 6:16-17, 10:18, 15:38-43, 15:50, 2 Corinthians 4:10-5:19, 7:1, 10:2-7, 11, 12:5-11, Galatians 1:6, 2:14-21, 3, 4:13-6:18, Ephesians 2, 5:29-32, 6:5, 6:12, Philippians 1:20-25, 3:3-9, Colossians 1:22-24, 2, 3:22, 1 Timothy 3:16, Philemon 1:10-16, Hebrews 2:14-17, Hebrews 5:7-9, 9:12-23, 10:20, 12:9-10, 1 Peter 1:24, 3:18-4:11, 2 Peter 2, 1 John 2, 1 John 4:1-6, 2 John 1:4-9, Jude 1:23, Revelation 17:16.



Bible teacher Ward Fenley writes to me a relevant exegesis in a letter on Romans 7:



“The context of Romans [7] is clearly about the transition from OC to NC, especially going from the end of 7 to the beginning of 8. It couldn't be clearer. Paul is describing himself as a Jew once under law, not as a Christian delivered from death. His prior commitment to the law for self-justification found weakness and unprofitableness:

Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

On the contrary, "who shall deliver me...I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord...

Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (2) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”



Considering Fenley’s observations, and the context of the “laws” and figurative application of “bodies” in a covenantal framework makes the central theme of “the Romans 7 problem” evident. The problem is a result of ignoring the context concealed in the figurative language employed by the colloquialism of the author’s original intention. Recognizing the figurative language of the author is not the same as “spiritualizing” the text, nor is it the same as subjecting the text to personal mystic revelation transcendent of a conservative (1 Corinthians 14:9) normal reading. The figurative language is clearly defined by the context of the scripture itself, with the careful use of analogy of faith to preserve the original intent of the author. The author was not intentionally concealing truths from his audience, but inversely speaking in a manner (Romans 3:5, 6:14-19, 1 Corinthians 3:1-2, 14:19, Galatians 3:15) that holds within the whole revelation of scripture, consistent with the author’s own vocabulary (1 Corinthians 14:10). The original audience understood Paul’s message clearly, and so can serious students today.



Two Distinct Bodies, One Dispensation



There are two distinct conventional bodies shown in scripture of importance here. When ignoring the Covenantal exchange of the first century (Hebrews 8:6-13) historical (Biblical) context and the figurative treatment of the signifier “body”, the conventional bodies are erroneously reduced by assumption (1 Corinthians 15:33-41) to literal physical and spiritual human bodies. When recognizing the covenantal extension (Isaiah 51:4-9, Psalm 102/Hebrews 1:10-12) of the first century’s (Matthew 12:39-45, 16:27-28, 23:29-39, 24:6, 24:34, Mark 8:38-9:1, 13:30, Luke 9:26-27, 11:29-36, 21:2, 21:32, 24:44-49, 1 Peter 2:9) historical (Biblical) context and the figurative treatment of the signifier “body”, the covenantal bodies are shown to epitomize:

The law of sin in the Old Covenant body [not the Law of God itself, but all those born into the bondage of corruption (Romans 8:21)] as the “body of death/sin”;

and

The law of God in the New Covenant body {fulfilled in Christ [not necessarily the Law of Moses itself; but all those born into the glorious liberty of the Spirit (Romans 8:21)]} as the “body of Christ”.

First God predestinated (Romans 8:28-39, Ephesians 1) the salvation of His elect before their incarnation (Romans 9:11)] from the body of sin [(body of this death) Romans 6:6, 7:24], and through Christ’s work, the chosen (Numbers 17:5, Deuteronomy 4:30-40, 7:6-16, 10, 12:5, 12:9-11, 14:2, 1 Chronicles 16:13-23, Psalms 33:11-12, 47, 89, 105:5-13, 105:42-45, 106:4-8, 135:4, Isaiah 14:1-2, 41:8-9, 43, 44:1-8, 48-49, 65:12-17, Ezekiel 20:4-5, Matthew 12:17-21, 20:1-16, 22:2-14, 24:2, 24:31, Mark 13:20, 13:27, John 15:15-27, Acts 1:2, 13, 22:14, Romans 1:5-7, 8:28-39, 9:3-8, 9:11, 9:18-28, 11:5-12, 1 Corinthians 1:28-31, 7:20-24, Galatians 5:13-18, Ephesians 1, 2:6-13, 1 Thessalonians 2:12, 2 Thessalonians 2:7-16, James 2:5-13, 1 Peter 2:4-12, Revelation 17:4) die in Christ [the baptism into his death (Romans 6); the body dead to sin], and is raised to life in Him. This is the better (2 Corinthians 3, Hebrews 1:4, 6:9-11, 7, 9:23-28, 10:34-39, 11:39, 12:23-24) resurrection (Hebrews 11:16, 11:35) into a more perfect tabernacle (Hebrews 9:11), a glorious (Psalms 111, 145, Isaiah 4, 11, 49, 60, 63, Jeremiah 17:12-13, Titus 2:13) body (Romans 8:21-23, 1 Corinthians 15:38-43, 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, 4, Ephesians 5:26-32, Philippians 3:19-21, Colossians 1).



Against Universal Salvation



It should be that noted that all are universally naturally born into the body of death (Job 5:4-8, 11:7-12, 14-15, Ecclesiastes 9:2-10, 12:6-8, Romans 5:12-21, Romans 6:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:20-22), but not all (Galatians 6:8) are raised to glorification (Romans 8:30) in Christ (Romans , being damned (Daniel 12:2, Matthew 5:18-20, 7, 13, 22:1-14, 23:33, 25:29-30, 25:31-46, Romans 9:6, 9:18-23, 2 Peter 2:4, Revelation 20:13-15, 21:7-8, 21:25-27, 22:14-15). The (Romans 15:29) common logical fallacy of universalism is the unwarranted conclusion that since all were originally born into (Romans 8:20) the Body of death, that all (Galatians 5:1) are dead (Romans 6) in Christ saved and risen in Him. Only (Galatians 3:17) those (2 Corinthians 2:15, Galatians 3:26) called (Romans 9:11, 1 Corinthians 1:2) and chosen (Matthew 20:16, 22:14, Romans 8:28-31) in Christ [(Romans 3, 8, 9:1, 1 Corinthians 1:30, 1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 2:16, 2:20) and Christ in them/ us (Romans 8:10, Galatians 4:19)] are raised with Him and live unto Him in a single (Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 5:4, Galatians 3:28) corporation (1 Corinthians 1:10), which is His body (1 Corinthians 12:27). Also, all are born into the first body, with or without the Law (also see Romans 2:8-16). It is evident that the first century (Matthew 12:41-45, 23:36-37, 24:34, Mark 8:38, 13:30, Luke 11:29-32, 11:50-51, Luke 21:32, Acts 2:40-47) saints of the Bible were already in the process (Ephesians 1, 2:6-4:30) of the Covenantal exchange (2 Corinthians 3:18), as they were in the process of being gathered (Matthew 24:30-35, John 11:52) into the sole body (Judges 20:1, Nehemiah 8:1, Isaiah 27:12, Hosea 1:10-11, Ephesians 2:15-4:30) of Christ (Psalm 102, Ephesians 1:10), changed (Psalms 102:26-28) into the glory (Romans 1:23, 2 Corinthians 3:18) of the New Covenant body (1 Corinthians 15:51-52).

Many of those who commit the fallacy of universalism do so by dogmatic theological grounds in their assumptions of the validity of the invented doctrine of “original sin”. Although the terms of the Covenant (Deuteronomy 27:26, 28, 30, Joshua 1:8, Matthew 5:19-20, Galatians 3:10) were initially exclusive to the Jews (John 4:22, Exodus 29:45, Leviticus 27:34, Deuteronomy 1:3, 4:1, 4:44-45, 5, 6:1-7, 10, 26:15-19, 27, 29:1, 31, 32:8-9, 33:28-29, Romans 3:1-2), there was a national corporate judgment seen in the scriptures (Exodus 20:5, 34:7, Numbers 14:18, Deuteronomy 5:9, Isaiah 14:19-23, etc.). But all are judged by their own acts (Jeremiah 16:12, Ezekiel 16:52, 18, Matthew 16:27, 23:26- 32, Romans 1:21-25, 2, 2 Corinthians 11:15, Ephesians 4, 1 Peter 1:17, Revelation 20:12-13, 22:12). Yet none is justified by the deeds of the Law (Acts 13:39, Romans 2-3, Galatians 2-3, 5, Ephesians 2:13-16) or by works (Romans 4, 9:11, 9:30-33, 11:5-6, 13:12, Galatians 2:16, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 3:4-7) because none are righteous in themselves (Genesis 6:5, 8:21, 1 Kings 8:46, 2 Chronicles 6:36, Job 4:17-21, 14:4, 15:14-16, 25, Psalms 14, 53, 58, 130:3, Proverbs 20:9, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Isaiah 53:6, 64:6, Jeremiah 4:14, 16:12, 17:9, Micah 7:2, Matthew 15:18-20, 19:17, Mark 7:20-23, 10:18, Luke 16:15-17, 18:19, Acts 8:21-23, Romans 1:28-32, 3:9-20, 3:23, 7:5, 7:8, 7:14-23, 8:7-8, Galatians 3:22, Titus 3:3, James 1:13-15, 3:2, 3:6-8, 1 Peter 4:2-3, 1 John 1:8-10, 5:19), but (Job 9:2, Romans 3:21-28, 7:24, 1 John 5, Isaiah 1, 51, 64) by the works (Psalms 143, Isaiah 53, Luke 6:46-49, 1 Corinthians 3:8-15, Galatians 5:19-25, Titus 3:5-8) of (Isaiah 59) Christ (Psalm 130, Philippians 1:6) in whom the Law be fulfilled (Matthew 5:17, Romans 7:6, 8:2-6, Galatians 3); the election of grace (Romans 9:11, 11:5) is chosen (Numbers 16:5, 17:5, Deuteronomy 4:30-40, 7:6-16, 10, 12:5, 12:9-11, 14:2, 1 Chronicles 16:13-23, Nehemiah 1:10, Psalms 33:11-22, 47, 89, 105:5-13, 105:42-45, 106:4-8, 135:4, Isaiah 14:1-3, 41:8-9, 43, 44:1-8, 48-49, 62:12, 63:18-19, 65:12-17, 66:4, Ezekiel 20:4-5, Matthew 12:17-21, 20:1-16, 22:2-14, 24:2, 24:31, Mark 13:20, 13:27, John 15:15-27, Acts 1:2, 13, 22:14, Romans 1:5-7, 8:28-39, 9:3-8, 9:11, 9:18-28, 11:5-12, 1 Corinthians 1:28-31, 7:20-24, Galatians 5:13-18, Ephesians 1, 2:6-13, 1 Thessalonians 2:12, 2 Thessalonians 2:7-16, James 2:5-13, 1 Peter 2:4-12, Revelation 17:4) in Him who judges (Psalms 9, 76, 96:13, Acts 17:31, Romans 3, 14:10-12, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Peter 2:4) and are saved (Psalms 76:9, 98, John 12:47-48) through (Acts 10:43, Ephesians 2:18) Him (John 3:17-21, Romans 5:1, 5:9, 8:37-39, 11:33-36, Philippians 3:9-15) by (2 Peter 1:3-4, 1:12, 2 Timothy 3:15, 1 John 4:9) faith (Romans 1:4-11, 3:10-5:10, Galatians 3:14, Colossians 2:12, Acts 3:16, Ephesians 2:4-10, Philippians 3:19-14, 2 Timothy 3:15, 1 Peter 1:5, 1:9-11). The election is His workmanship (Ephesians 2:10, 2:20-22) and covenantal creation (Romans 8:16-22, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Colossians 1).



On the progressive advancement of the transformational gathering of the elect

Ward Fenley writes (*1):

“As far as Paul was concerned, to not have WON Christ or have Christ yet dwelling in his heart was to be absent from the Lord, for they were still only in the first part of the Temple in heaven and not in the holiest of all. As long as they were not in the holiest of all they were still in the OC body of death. But the main difference between them and those OT believers who had died in faith having NOT received the promises was that the first century believers were BEING changed and BEING saved and BEING raised into the fullness of NC life. Paul saw such importance in the holiest of all that he could with full assurance declare that while they were still out of the holiest of all they were STILL in the OC body of death, from which Paul was longing to be delivered. While the NC body of life or Christ was growing into completion its individuals were growing with it. Again there can be no elect corporate without the elect individuals. What Paul was declaring in Romans 8 is that without the complete salvation and growth of the first century church AS A WHOLE, there would be no complete salvation, for God promised He would SAVE HIS people from their sins. That is why God was so longsuffering to Israel in Romans 11 and 2 Pet 3. He was not going to destroy Israel until the last of that elect creation would be saved. The body of LIFE was not complete as long as there remained even ONE of those elect individuals of the whole CREATION in an unregenerate state. Once the last of the elect necessary to complete the growth of the body of life into a new man, then Christ would dwell in their hearts:

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Through the Spirit, Christ (the new Man or Image or Body) was being formed in them BY the spirit. They were being conFORMED into the image if Him the created them:

Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is BEING renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Examine what is associated with this conformation into the image of Christ: "that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Christ was the FIRST to rise from the dead and the ultimate conformation into His image would be the complete rising of the OC creation or body or image of death into the NC creation or body or Image of Life of Christ. While one was being sown in corruption and decaying, the other was being sown in incorruption and was being raised into newness of life, both on the individual as well as the corporate level:

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: {43} It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: {44} It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.” *1



The Body to be redeemed of



Romans 8:19 For1063 the3588 earnest expectation603 of the3588 creature2937 waiteth
for553 the3588 manifestation602 of the3588 sons5207 of God.2316

Romans 8:20 For1063 the3588 creature2937 was made subject5293 to vanity,3153 not3756

willingly,1635 but235 by reason of1223 him who hath subjected5293 the same in1909 hope,1680

Romans 8:21 Because3754 the3588 creature2937 itself848 also2532 shall be delivered1659 from575 the3588 bondage1397 of corruption5356 into1519 the3588 glorious1391 liberty1657 of the3588 children5043 of God.2316

Romans 8:22 For1063 we know1492 that3754 the whole3956 creation2937 groaneth4959
and2532 travaileth in pain together4944 until891 now.3568

Romans 8:23 And1161 not3756 only3440 they, but235 ourselves848 also,2532 which have2192 the3588 firstfruits536 of the3588 Spirit,4151 even2532 we2249 ourselves848 groan4727 within1722 ourselves,1438 waiting for553 the adoption,5206 to wit, the3588 redemption629 of our2257 body.4983



The "body" to be redeemed was the "whole creation" (Romans 8:21-22, 1:18-32). The context grammatically confirms this deduction. The redemption of “our [plural] body [singular]” (Philippians 3:21) is the single body {[of death] (Romans 7:24)} that the whole covenantal elect [the Children of God (Job 21:19, Hosea 1:10, Matthew 5:9, Luke 20:36, John 11:49-52, Romans 8:14-17, 8:21, 9:3-8, 25-26, Galatians 3:26-29, Ephesians 5:1, 1 John 3:8-14. 4:4, 5:2)] were being gathered (John 11:52, Ephesians 1, 4:13, etc.) into [the resurrection (Luke 20:36, Acts 23:6, 24:21, Romans 6:5, 1 Corinthians 15, Philippians 3:9-14, 1 Peter 1:3, etc.)].

In context, using the normal hermeneutic, the body refers to “the creation”! The noted “creation” is a spiritual creation (Colossians 1:12-15) not the physical creation (John 4:21-25, 17:11, 17:13-26). Creation is covenantal jargon (2 Corinthians 5:17, Galatians 6:15, Colossians 1), and so is the “groaning” (Exodus 2:24, 6:5, 2 Corinthians 5, Job, Psalms, Acts 7:34) as the lament (2 Samuel 22:5-7, Psalms 18:4-6) of the "bondage of death". The bondage of death is the body that was to be redeemed of. The deixis does not allow for any other endophoric deictic word. That is why the predicate deliverance (also see Hebrews 2:15) is called a "glorious liberty" (Roman 8:21) from being "subject to vanity" (Romans 8:20). Compare with Philippians 3:21. "Our [plural] vial body [singular]" changed into His "glorious" body (Revelation 20)! The “body” (Romans 8:10-23) is the body (Romans 12:4-5, 1 Corinthians 6:19, 10:16-17) of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:12-13:12, 15:35-57, 2 Corinthians 14:10-16:18, Ephesians 1:1-3:11, 4:3-5:32, Philippians 3:21-4:13, Colossians 1:11-3:17, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:19-25). Compare with 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4. The strength of this appeal comes from the exegetical dependency on context, analogy of faith, and does not ignore the first century context of covenantal change.



The Corrupting “Flesh” Is an Analogous Portrait of “the Body of this Death”



By “the flesh”, Paul is not referring solely to the physical body separate from the soul (see Matthew 10:28, Romans 7:18-25, 8:5-7, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Isaiah 10:18), but rather the body distinct from the Spirit (see John 6:63, Romans 8, 1 Corinthians 5:3-5, Galatians 5:17, 6:8, Hebrews 4:12, James 2:26, 1 John 4:14, Jude 1:18-23). By the flesh, Paul clues that he means the body’s depraved condition independent (Genesis 6:3, Romans 8:9) of the Spirit of God. The Spirit of God is the covenantal (Ezekiel 11:15-21, 36, John 14:21, 1 Corinthians 2:10-16, 7:34-40, Ephesians 2) tantamount of Christ (Psalm 104:30, Proverbs 18:14, 20:27, Ecclesiastes 3:20-22, 12:7, Isaiah 32:15, 40:10-14, 48:16-17, 63:8-10, John 14:16-20, 16:13, Romans 8:1-2, 8:9-11, 2 Corinthians 3:3, Galatians 3:14-16, Philippians 1:19-20, 3:3, Hebrews 9:14, 1 Peter 1:10-11, 1 John 5:6). The “flesh” is the covenantal (Genesis 2:21-24, 3:17, Romans 5:13-21, 1 Corinthians 15:44-50, Colossians 2, Hebrews 2:14, 1 Peter 3:18-22) tantamount of the figure (Romans 5:14) of Adam (1 Corinthians 15:21-22). Flesh and Spirit appear to be dynamically practical symbols to describe the revelation of the two requisitionary “bodies” (John 3:6, 1 Corinthians 15:38-50) exposed by Christ’s light (1 John 1:7). The language shows the vatic Biblical precedent of the Reformed tradition’s elaborative Biblical paradigm “Covenant Theology”. Analyzing the scripture alone with scripture preserves the original meanings of the figurative language used of the literary type theme convention of Covenatalism.



The Flesh



Paul often semantically associates “the flesh” in a covenantal context, since through the Law sin operated on the body unto death (Romans 3:6-20, 4:15, 5:13, 5:20, 6:14, 7:5-12, 8:3, 8:20-23, 1 Corinthians 15:56, Colossians 2:14, 1 John 3:4). The covenantal context of “the flesh” has beginnings in the circumcision rite of the Old Testament (Genesis 17:9-27, 21:4, 34:15/34:22-24, Exodus 12:44-50, Leviticus 12:2-3, Deuteronomy 10:15-16, 30, Joshua 5, Jeremiah 4:4, 9:25, John 7:22-24, Acts 7:8, Acts 15:5, Romans 2:25-3:31, 4:9-25, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19, Galatians 5-6, Ephesians 2:11-18, Philippians 3:3-9, Colossians 2:11-15). The pun works at least two ways (with one central theme). The flesh refers to the flesh of the foreskin, a physical marking of the consecrated covenant (Genesis 17:11-14); and also to the ethnic “flesh” of the physical stock of Covenantal Israel (Acts 13:26, Exodus 34:27, Numbers 18:19, Jeremiah 31:31-33, Romans 9:3-8, Hebrews 8).

Paul makes use of “flesh” as a practical euphemism for sin and death (Romans 7:5, Galatians 6:8). The writers of the epistles use that kind of rhetoric to characterize the New Covenant (Romans 7:6, 8). The Spirit, as distinct (Romans 8:2-9, Galatians 5:17-18) to the flesh, is synonymous with the New Covenant fulfillment (Matthew 5:17-20, Romans 6:14-8:23, 13:8-14, Galatians 4:21-5:16) of the (Ephesians 2:7-22, Hebrews 7-12:24) Old Covenant (Deuteronomy 4:12-14, Galatians 5:18). This cleverly paints a portrait of redemption (Romans 3:20-31, Leviticus 25, Ruth 4:4-7, 2 Samuel 7:19-29, 1 Chronicles 7:19-27, Nehemiah 1, 5, Psalms 31:5, 49, 111:9, 130, Isaiah 43, Jeremiah 31:7-37, 32:8, Hosea 13:14, Luke 21:28, 1 Corinthians 1, Galatians 3-5:18, Ephesians 1:3-2:22, 4:30, Colossians 1-3, Hebrews 9:7-26, 1 Peter 1:17-25, Revelation 5:9).



The Physical Body



The Bible seldom refers to the physical body in the same terms that “the flesh” of the bylaw dominates the context of the first century Covenantal reciprocity. The Bible simply describes the fate of the physical body unto physical death (Genesis 3:19, Job 5:6-7, 5:26, 7, 10, 14, 17, 20:7-18, 21:17-26, 30:17-24, 34:15, Psalm 16:10, 30:9, 44:25, 49, 102, 103:14-18, 104:29, Ecclesiastes 3:17-22, 9:1-6, 9:12, 12:6-8, Isaiah 38, 51:12, Romans 8:18-21, 1 Corinthians 15:42, 15:50, Galatians 6:8, 2 Peter 1:3-4, James 1:10-11, 1 Peter 1:23-25, 2 Peter 2:19-22, etc.).



Redemption of the Body



The body of Christ (Ephesians 4:15-16) is the body redeemed (Romans 8, 1 Corinthians 15:47) from the body of death. The connection of the redemption with the spiritual birth (John 3:3-12, 16:20-22, Romans 8:19-23, Galatians 4:19-31, 1 Peter 1:3-5, 1:23-25, 1 John 3:9-10, 4:4-9, 5, Revelation 12:1-6, Numbers 11:11-14, Isaiah 53-54, 66, Jeremiah 4:31, 30:3-11, 31:4-8, Micah 4, 5:3), spiritual adoption (Isaiah 11, 42, 61:8-11, 62:1-2, Micah 5:7-8, Matthew 3:9, 5:9, Luke 3:8, 20:36, Acts 2:39, 28:23-31, Romans 3, 4:16-21, 8:14-17, 9, 11:5-27, 15:8-17, 1 Corinthians 12:12-13, Galatians 3:2-22, 3:26-29, 4, 6:15-16, Ephesians 1:3-11, 2-3, 5:6-9, Colossians 3:5-15, Revelation 21:7), the spiritual (Psalms 16:5, Colossians 3:1-4, Hebrews 8:6, 10:34) inheritance (Job 31:2, Psalms 28:8-9, 37:18, 74:2, 78, Proverbs 3:34-35, 8, 13:22, 14:18, Isaiah 49:3-13, 60:19-22, 65:9, Lamentations 5:2, Ezekiel 44:28, Matthew 5:5, 19:28-30, 21:43-44, 25:34, Acts 10:35-45, 11:1, 11:14-18, 13:46-49, 20:32, 26:17-18, Romans 4:13-16, 8:18, 1 Corinthians 6, 9:24-25, 15:50, Galatians 3, 4:22-31, 5:16-25, Ephesians 1, 2:6-8, 3:6, 5:5-9, Colossians 1:12-14, 3:24, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Hebrews 6, 9:15, 11:39-12:2, 1 Peter1:3-13, 1:18, Revelation 21:7, Job 29:19), the gathering (Genesis 49:10, Leviticus 27:25, Numbers 8:5-19, 10:1-10, Deuteronomy 30:1-7, 31:11-13, Joshua 22:12, 2 Samuel 3:21, 6:1, 1 Chronicles 16:35, 2 Chronicles 34:28, Psalms 26:8-12, 50:1-6, 102:18-28, 106:40-48, 107:2-3, Isaiah 10:14, 11:10-12, 40:1-11, 43, 44:11, 49:5-8, 54:7, 56:8, 60, 66:16-19, Jeremiah 3:15-18, 4:1-5, Jeremiah 6:9, 23:1-8, 24:14, Ezekiel 11:15-20, 20:33-43, 28:4, 29:13, 34:10-17, 36, 37:21-22, 38:7-12, 39:25-29, Joel 2:15-16, Micah 2:12, 4:6-8, 7:1, Zephaniah 2:1, 3:8-9, 3:17-20, 10, Matthew 3:12, 13:18-30, 13:47-50, 22:1-14, 23:36-37, 24:30-31, 25:32-34, Mark 13:26-27, Luke 3:17, 13:34, John 11:51-52, 1 Corinthians 5:4, Ephesians 1:9-10, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, 2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 19:17) into a revivified multicultural nation (Psalms 33:12, 47, Isaiah 11, 54, 42:6, 60, 66, Jeremiah 3:18, 30:3-11, 31, Micah 5, Malachi 1:11, John 11:51-52, Acts 2:39, 3:25, 1 Peter 2:6-12, Revelation 5:9-10, 14:3-6), the resurrection (Ezekiel 37) and the focus on the inner (Colossians 1:27, Hebrews 8:7-13, 1 John 4:4, 4:13-17) spiritual nature (Romans 2:14-16, 2:29, 7:22, Galatians 2:15-20, 6:17, Ephesians 2:10, 6:9) over the (Romans 1:23, 2:11-13, Proverbs 24:23) racial “flesh” (Matthew 23:27-28, Acts 10:45, Romans 2:25-28, 7:18, 9:3, 9:5-8, Ephesians 2:1-3, 2:11, Galatians 1:14-16, 6:15) and ethnic ritual (Galatians 5:1-17), and show the relation of the nature of the resurrected spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44).

The regenerate saints did not necessarily anticipate their own physical death (2 Corinthians 5:3-6), but their inheritance (Psalms 16:7, 23:13-14, Matthew 19:29, 25:34, Acts 20:32, 26:16-18, Romans 4:11-15, 1 Corinthians 15:50, Galatians 3-4, Ephesians 1:9-14,bre1:17-23, Colossians 1, Colossians 3:22-24, Hebrews 9) in Heaven (1 Peter 1:3-5). They already were dead in Christ (Romans 6:4, 6:8, Galatians 2:10, Colossians 2:12, 2:20, 3:3-4, 2 Timothy 2:10-11). Christ is the foundation (1 Corinthians 3:9-13, Ephesians 2:18-22, 2 Timothy 2:19).

Bible-Touchstone
05-18-2008, 08:37 AM
Here are some relevant excerpts:


Ward Fenley writes (*1):

“As far as Paul was concerned, to not have WON Christ or have Christ yet dwelling in his heart was to be absent from the Lord, for they were still only in the first part of the Temple in heaven and not in the holiest of all. As long as they were not in the holiest of all they were still in the OC body of death. But the main difference between them and those OT believers who had died in faith having NOT received the promises was that the first century believers were BEING changed and BEING saved and BEING raised into the fullness of NC life. Paul saw such importance in the holiest of all that he could with full assurance declare that while they were still out of the holiest of all they were STILL in the OC body of death, from which Paul was longing to be delivered. While the NC body of life or Christ was growing into completion its individuals were growing with it. Again there can be no elect corporate without the elect individuals. What Paul was declaring in Romans 8 is that without the complete salvation and growth of the first century church AS A WHOLE, there would be no complete salvation, for God promised He would SAVE HIS people from their sins. That is why God was so longsuffering to Israel in Romans 11 and 2 Pet 3. He was not going to destroy Israel until the last of that elect creation would be saved. The body of LIFE was not complete as long as there remained even ONE of those elect individuals of the whole CREATION in an unregenerate state. Once the last of the elect necessary to complete the growth of the body of life into a new man, then Christ would dwell in their hearts:

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Through the Spirit, Christ (the new Man or Image or Body) was being formed in them BY the spirit. They were being conFORMED into the image if Him the created them:

Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is BEING renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Examine what is associated with this conformation into the image of Christ: "that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Christ was the FIRST to rise from the dead and the ultimate conformation into His image would be the complete rising of the OC creation or body or image of death into the NC creation or body or Image of Life of Christ. While one was being sown in corruption and decaying, the other was being sown in incorruption and was being raised into newness of life, both on the individual as well as the corporate level:

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: {43} It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: {44} It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.” *1





*1

Absent From the Body
(An analysis of 2 Corinthians 5)

By Ward Fenley (info@eschatology.com)

used with permission from author

Bible-Touchstone
05-18-2008, 08:43 AM
The terms employed by Paul in Romans 8:10-11, thus ought not be isolated from their immediate literary and historical context or the integrity of all Scripture. When Paul uses terms like "body" or "death", the Bible itself furnishes the definition in accordance with the hermeneutical principal "analogy of faith". That is to say the Bible defines its own terms; to understand Paul's language we must immerse ourselves in the language he employs thoughout the letter.

Grace be to you,

PFC Vincent Michael Krivda, Jr.

Bible-Touchstone

Amie
05-19-2008, 10:42 AM
Vincent,

I suspect that the difference is that we do not have an ongoing elect. They had a purpose and that purpose was served. All who were to be elected to that purpose were saved at the completion of the ingathering of the gentiles.

I completely do not understand the point made about "original sin"? Sin is universal and on that I think we agree -- regardless of how we believe it is that way.

Here is a great article in considering the "elect" within their first century context: http://pantelism.com/Election.htm

I do not agree that creation was wholly covenantal. It was the record of the creation of the house of God and that entails much more than just what some limit via their definition of "covenant".

Are you familiar with the function of the first fruits offering in the old testament which was a type for the reality found in Christ?

And, I think that I and others are able to gather that you disagree without the constant assertion of "fallacy". The point here is not about right and wrong and the proof of rightness -- it is about fellowship and sharing our diverse views with one another. I would appreciate it if you would respect those boundaries.

Amie

Bible-Touchstone
05-25-2008, 07:26 PM
Amie,

Thanks for introducing me to the website with that link.
Excuse me for my arrogance; I am new to this site and didn't realize this site was so particular about the beliefs shared. I am interested in learning more about your interpretive system, "pantelism". I am curious about how your school of preterism deals with Biblical themes such as the election, and other questions I have.

You've seemed to suggest that the election only applies to the first-century saints, and not to believers like me. Their election, I gather, is not so related to Salvation, but some other role already fulfilled. I am having trouble understanding that part, maybe someone can clarify with supporting Scripture.
I gather that all people besides them are now redeemed from God's wrath and judgment, I guess even if they don't have faith. Again, if I misrepresent your position, please let me know with pardon; I'm not so familiar with the implications of pantelism.

I am most curious on where does the doctrine of justification by faith fit into the pantelism's theological system. By what I've gathered by the website, it seems that Paul's argument for justification by faith was then just a temporary issue for his immediate audience only those before salvation was universally distributed to all people. I suppose pantelist are really universalists; and Paul's preoccupation with justification by faith alone is not a relevant doctrine anymore. Do you have any Scripture that will help me correctly understand your position?

Grace be to you,
PFC Vincent Michael Krivda, Jr.

Ft. Lee, VA