Body or Spirit

[christyG]

What happened to Jesus' physical body? It came up missing.....people actually saw him, although Mary did not at first realize it was him?...........It (or something visible) ascended into the clouds?.........

I am of the opinion that we will not be reunited with our physical bodies at any point, but why was Jesus? Or was he?:confused:

Christy:)

[Amie]

Christy,

That's a good question and I look forward to other's answers - I'm betting that there are folks out there much more knowledgable than me in this area.

My thought is that he did rise and ascend in his physical body. That may have been what Israel was working to accomplish through the law (literal eternal life), and since Jesus kept it perfectly --

Like I said, I'm interested in thoughts on this one also :)

Amie

[Infinite Grace]

Christy,
my thoughts coincide with what his physical body did in the crucifixion: i.e., although he was physically crucified, the first century saints did not need to be physically crucified in order to "be crucified with Christ." In the same way, his PHYSICAL resurrection did not necessitate a physical resurrection on the FCS part either. They merely needed to be baptized - a spiritual resurrection.

I believe Jesus rose bodily from the dead (his body representing His Bride, the church). After his ascension though, I believe that he received his "glorified body" which John saw in the Revelation, and his physical body returned "to dust from where it came." Ours will as well.

[Amie]

After his ascension though, I believe that he received his "glorified body" which John saw in the Revelation, and his physical body returned "to dust from where it came." Ours will as well.

I agree :)

[backtothefuture]

I'm confused. What would a glorified body look like?:uhh:
Nancy

[Infinite Grace]

Nancy,
I have no idea what OUR glorified body would look like, if it would even look like anything. We know from Revelation what Jesus' glorified body looked like, at least at the moment that John saw it. However, I don't believe that I made any reference to US getting a glorified body, my comment was about our physical body returning to dust.

I do believe though that there will be some kind of continuation of recognition, otherwise how would our loved ones recognize us, or we them? Unless of course you subscribe to the theory that we will not have that cognitive ability in the afterlife. I do not. I believe that we will see our loved ones, perhaps even those whom we never knew; e.g., my grandparents who all but one died before I was two. I expect to see the two Reformed Presbyterian elders who destroyed my reputation through lies and deceit so that they can ask my forgiveness with sincerity (they haven't in this life yet, perhaps they will after seeing God). Anyway, that's neither here nor there.

[backtothefuture]

Ed,
I was just hoping you would take a guess at what a glorified body would look like:)
Jesus after he resurrected must have been in the glorified state and yet they didn't recognize him. THat kind of bothers me. Did he get a total body makeover? (excuse my sarcasim)
I like what you said about the crucifixtion. Jesus did that, and we didn't have to. I never looked at it that way before. I think there is more to the resurrection to be figured out, but can't figure out what that is:confused:
Thanks,
Nancy

[Infinite Grace]

Nancy,
I don't believe that Jesus rose from the tomb in a glorified body. Could you imagine how weird it would be for Jesus to be standing there in a glorified state, and Mary think that he's a gardener? Even in the post-resurrection appearances, pre-ascension, I believe that he was in HIS body that he had while in his earthly ministry. I think that he got his "glorified body" POST-ascension.

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Ed,
Why did they not recognize him then? Also, I have heard that there were other religions of the day and in past times that also taught 3 days in a tomb or somewhere and then a resurrection. Don't take this the wrong way, but could the story of Jesus just be another type of Myth?
Thanks,
Nancy

[Infinite Grace]

Nancy,
Myth simply means "story." Our modern culture has twisted the meaning of the word. The truth is, all religious stories are "myth."

I think that they didn't recognize him because they were not looking at him, nor looking for him. As far as the Emmaus dudes go, there are a number of reasons THEY didn't recognize him: 1) bad weather and they were wearing ancient rain gear (hoods), 2) God blinded their eyes, just to name a couple. Doesn't really matter to me. It could have even been slightly embellished. Still doesn't matter to me.

I believe totally in the redemption story. Crucifixion, resurrection, ascension. It doesn't matter to me if it is literally accurate, or not. Truth is, story is like that. True nonetheless.

[christyG]

Ed,
Please don't take me wrong, but why is it so important for you to believe that Jesus' body rose from the grave? If he was turning their (Jews) physical shadows (feast days, the temple, etc..) into spiritual reality, then why raise the physical body?

Christy

[Amie]

Christy,

What do you think of the idea that he rose physically because he kept the law perfectly? That would set him apart from anyone in history or ever.

Amie

[Infinite Grace]

Christy,
Why did Christ physically die? That's why it's important to me that he rose physically - because he died physically.

At least that's what I believe.

[Donone]

J. Murray Harris, a professor at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School wrote a fascinating book called From Grave to Glory in which he documents the reality of a "spiritual body" in the risen Christ. Not just recognition issues, but moving through closed doors, and eating. I don't think we should be so quick to move to myth when the scripture itself tells us in Peters sermon that God promised His holy ones body would never see corruption. I believe the Easter resurrection started after his breathed his last, a divine healing of torn flesh, except for the nail marks, a preservation of flesh from rotting, an empty tomb. These are all things God could do for the sinless son that He does not promise He will do for us. Ie, we come from and return to dust, our flesh rots. Jesus had a direct three days in the grave connection and an empty tomb for our sake and to testify to God's promise. I believe just as we have carbon based earthly bodies to suit earthly life, we have have spiritual bodies designed to function in the more real and larger spiritual world. Which for me means eating without getting fat, going to a place like Hawaii without a 6 hour flight, and having a lot of time (or a lack of time, ie timeless eternal now) to get to the bottom of eternal truths firsthand.

Don

[Barry]

Hi Everyone:
There may be a point here to be made that perhaps Ed has touched on. First the natural then the spiritual. The promises made to Abraham had an initial natural fulfillment then a spiritual. Christ being the first of the first-fruits had certain natural points that needed to be fulfilled.
The rest of the first-fruits less so but still a little.

There seems to be a point being made concerning the natural as a demonstration. As the shadow demonstrated the substance the the natural demonstrated the spiritual.

Hey Don:
We are told very clearly that Christ's body (that was raised) was flesh and bone.
Then there is the issue that Christ did many such feats prior to his death. Like walking on the water and disappearing and appearing "acts" so to speak. While there is a concentration of this in post resurrection IMHO it is not indicative of any type of spiritual "flesh" or spiritual "bone" as we might think of when thinking of a spiritual body at resurrection.

Just a thought,
Barry

[christyG]

Amie said:
Christy,

What do you think of the idea that he rose physically because he kept the law perfectly? That would set him apart from anyone in history or ever.


Yes, I can see that, like that.:)

Can you (and/or Ed)explain what you meant by:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed
After his ascension though, I believe that he received his "glorified body" which John saw in the Revelation, and his physical body returned "to dust from where it came." Ours will as well.


So he left a body somewhere?

Please understand I'm not trying to be facetious (sp?), just wanting to think this through with you all. I hope I'm not aggrevating anyone. I think it's a great discussion.:)

Christy

[Infinite Grace]

Christy,
I don't really think that it matters where his body went. I mean, God could have disintegrated or just transformed the physical body of Jesus.

I don't know, and to me it doesn't really matter,

[Barry]

Hi Christy and everyone,
We might ask, "What is physical and where did physical come from?"
Our answer to the latter is it came from God.
To the former I feel that while the physical can be linked conceptually to the "natural" in some cases, we simply are not advanced enough yet to see or understand that there really is ultimately no absolute distinction between the what is physical and what is spiritual.

When we (assumption here) finally advance to the point where we being to see these things then "What happened to the physical body of Jesus?" will make more sense.
Until that point I'm with Ed. It for now doesn't "matter". Right now we don't even know what "matter" is (to play on words).

JMO but my theory is that the one of the reasons why the Bible became silent (Just prior to the fulfillment of all things written) is to make room for humankind's advancement from a different setup. A different relationship stemming from God.
I read a lot into the fact that the Bible does not finalize itself. The Bible is an eschatological historical document that never completed itself. The end that the Bible foresaw from Page 1 to "Lord come quickly" is an end that it never records. It, itself, never said "it is done". God let "us" do it. IMHO this sets a "precedent". It speaks of a different way that God works in his creation.


At this time the best way to understand the Bible is from the Bible itself and getting back to the "setting" and "context" and sorting out how the pieces of the puzzle best fit by comparing the pieces with themselves.
However my theory is that future advancements will bring to light some of the harder questions that we have.
What is physical?
What is matter?
What happens to us when we die?
What format do we take when we die?
What is consciousness?
What is individuality as opposed to the collective (unity and diversity, a drop of water in the ocean, islands connected to a whole underwater)?
What is the "mind" what is the true source of our feelings?
How is collective consciousness influenced (some studies seem to imply that there is a collective learning process in the animal kingdom where information is transferred in a completely unexplainable way as if there is a universal source that is at times being taped into).

IMHO, all said and done however, all things will lead us to one inescapable conclusion. Life is about relationship and everything surrounds that focal point no matter where we are located on our journey.

Barry

[Amie]

Christy,

I appreciate your questions, they inspire me to dig :). I also understand wanting to examine things from many angles - you're a digger yourself ;). (I think we already established that commonality, lol) So please, don't be discouraged - you are not on my nerve (which is good, because I only have one left, hahaha!).


Can you (and/or Ed)explain what you meant by:
After his ascension though, I believe that he received his "glorified body" which John saw in the Revelation, and his physical body returned "to dust from where it came." Ours will as well.

So he left a body somewhere?

Einstein put forth a theory that matter (it occupies space and has mass) can be converted to energy (E=mc2), and therefor there is no distinction between matter and energy. Here's a link to listen to him explain it himself: http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/voice1.htm. The theory has been proven many times over and is the source for the atom and nuclear bombs (a big loud sarchastic "Yay"). This takes a piece of matter not even visible to the eye, and converts it to energy - BOOM! That energy, shall we say, contains massive force, lol.

It's possible that God could work with such volatile things and not blow things up - He's God after all. I tend to believe that God may work within things as He created them. Einstein thought science his whole life and said "I want to know God's thoughts, the rest are details". LOL! He thought that he may get a glimpse at the outcome of God's plan through science. Pretty cool I think.

There are a number of explainations for what happened to Jesus that are fun to explore. Perhaps he left time, perhaps he knew that there is no difference between physical and spiritual (particle-wise), etc. He definately knew how to control nature and his own body before and after the crucifixion.

I think that after death we will exist. We will definately be in a different form than we are in now. I feel that Christ's may have been different because he did keep the law - I don't know that it is still different. Scripture is silent as per the state of his body after his ascension.

In the story of his resurrection, the stone is moved from the tomb, and it is empty. The angel tells the women "he is not here". His physical body must have risen and ascended.

I agree with Don that the resurrection began the moment he "gave up the ghost". In addition, I think that it ended around AD70 and happened in two parts (he may or may not agree with that part).


Which for me means eating without getting fat, going to a place like Hawaii without a 6 hour flight, and having a lot of time (or a lack of time, ie timeless eternal now) to get to the bottom of eternal truths firsthand.

Don - Sometimes I try and imagine life without a physical body. It is possible that we will eat physical cake somewhere else some day. I wonder if it is also possible to experience eating the cake and the pleasure from it, without ever eating it.

All -

Have y'all seen "What Dreams May Come" with Robin Williams? For some it's a draggy movie. For me it was deep and painted (no pun intended) a realistic picture of the afterlife.

Amie

[davo]

What is individuality as opposed to the collective (unity and diversity, a drop of water in the ocean, islands connected to a whole underwater)?

This Barry is a good picture of reality, as we don't often perceive it. We "see" an "apparent world" that we can digest and to a degree understand, yet the vast majority remains below what can be seen with the naked or natural eye. We see continents and land masses as separate entities, but in reality below the surface or "the apparent" is a wholeness encircling all. Paul uses very segregated and Greek orientated language to describe 'man' where what in reality for the Hebrew mind was actually a whole unit of being:

1Thess 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul wasn't delving into what we treat as the intricate parts of man – what we as westerners are fond of chasing after and bifurcating, but rather is using such language to speak of the totality or wholeness of one's being; in this instance Paul's "completely" and "whole" being reflected in the combination of "spirit, soul, and body".

There is a depth to humanity that IMO we cannot know, yet there are times when we can ignorantly and or inadvertently tap into it, and some of this I personally suspect answers to much of what we interpret as "other worldly, spiritual or demonic".

Just a thought.

[Amie]

..yet there are times when we can ignorantly and or inadvertently tap into it, and some of this I personally suspect answers to much of what we interpret as "other worldly, spiritual or demonic".

I agree.

Amie

[Barry]

Very interesting thoughts!!!
Its nice to be here!
Barry

[christyG]

WOW!

You are all such great thinkers!:clap2: I'm honored to even be conversing with you (collective) and appreciate your patience with me and my little mind.:)

The reason I mentioned the book, The Celestine Prophecy, in the literature section is because many of the things that many of you have mentioned are views that also seem to be shared by the author of this book. Which made me wonder if there is somewhere (other than here) that you were all getting your thoughts or if it's just coincidence (which, by the way, is addressed by the theories of this book;) ).
Some examples of things that were said that are common with the views of the book are:

Barry said: When we (assumption here) finally advance to the point where we being to see these things then "What happened to the physical body of Jesus?" will make more sense.
Until that point I'm with Ed. It for now doesn't "matter". Right now we don't even know what "matter" is (to play on words).

And...

At this time the best way to understand the Bible is from the Bible itself and getting back to the "setting" and "context" and sorting out how the pieces of the puzzle best fit by comparing the pieces with themselves.
However my theory is that future advancements will bring to light some of the harder questions that we have.
What is physical?
What is matter?
What happens to us when we die?
What format do we take when we die?
What is consciousness?
What is individuality as opposed to the collective (unity and diversity, a drop of water in the ocean, islands connected to a whole underwater)?
What is the "mind" what is the true source of our feelings?
How is collective consciousness influenced (some studies seem to imply that there is a collective learning process in the animal kingdom where information is transferred in a completely unexplainable way as if there is a universal source that is at times being taped into).

Barry, you seem to be very spiritual:9_cool:

Also:

Amie said: It's possible that God could work with such volatile things and not blow things up - He's God after all. I tend to believe that God may work within things as He created them. Einstein thought science his whole life and said "I want to know God's thoughts, the rest are details". LOL! He thought that he may get a glimpse at the outcome of God's plan through science. Pretty cool I think.

Einstein is mentioned in the book.

And,

Davo said: This Barry is a good picture of reality, as we don't often perceive it. We "see" an "apparent world" that we can digest and to a degree understand, yet the vast majority remains below what can be seen with the naked or natural eye. We see continents and land masses as separate entities, but in reality below the surface or "the apparent" is a wholeness encircling all.

There is a theory presented by the Celestine Vision that says that we ARE evolving as people and that at the climax of our evolution we will just simple slip from the physical into the spiritual without a visible, phyiscal body. (people begin to "vanish" at the end of the book) A little sci-fi I know but interesting none the less.

Please know that it is not my intent to glorify this book or the author, I'm sure that there are some things that he may be way off on, but he does seem to be onto something. (He's a digger too it seems;) )

Also, in the Book of Mary some of these matters seem to be addressed as well, but unfortunately only a portion of these writings have survived or been uncovered as of yet.

Christy

[Amie]

There is a theory presented by the Celestine Vision that says that we ARE evolving as people and that at the climax of our evolution we will just simple slip from the physical into the spiritual without a visible, phyiscal body. (people begin to "vanish" at the end of the book) A little sci-fi I know but interesting none the less.

Any similarities are accidental on my part, but great minds do think alike! hahaha! Anyhow, maybe have a look at this: http://talk-grace.com/showthread.php?p=1003#post1003

Don gave reference to an author that also has similar thoughts.

Amie

[Jotham]

As a dyed-in-the-wool Trekkie i'm w/Einstein and thinking there might be some truth to "Q" and the "Continuum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_Continuum)".

;)

Besides i still keep thinking in the back of my mind that God made the heavens waaaaaay to big to just look at from a distance...

I WANT TO ZOOOOOM, ZOOM when i leave this plane of existence.
Walking on "Streets of Gold" might not be enough for the adventurous spirit God put inside me.

[ozark]

Speaking of the glorified body, here is a thought. From reading a little of Hugh Ross’ thoughts on the subject, apparently a being that existed in a higher plain or dimension would appear magical to beings who do not share the same status. For example, if you, a three dimensional being, encountered a two dimensional being, you would be able to do things that would confound the 2D guy. You would occupy his realm but also another he could not comprehend.

Now, suppose Jesus was the same way. He occupied our three dimensions after the resurrection, but also a higher plane. He would show all the physical properties we are used to, but He could also do things that would confound us as in the post resurrection accounts. This is one of many possibilities of course.

And Amie said, “It's possible that God could work with such volatile things and not blow things up - He's God after all.” Yes, Jesus would have to have that ability. A physicist once reminded me that normally the energy release in turning water into wine would cause quite an explosion!

[Jotham]

[COLOR=black]Speaking of the glorified body, here is a thought...For example, if you, a three dimensional being, encountered a two dimensional being, you would be able to do things that would confound the 2D guy. You would occupy his realm but also another he could not comprehend.

Exactly Doug, I remember years ago (when i watched TBN) there was a speaker that did a presentation of mr/mrs flat or somthing like that, explaining how we in our 3d world could not possibly even begin to fathom the depth and experiense a higher demensional being such as God lives.

And somehow,though we don't know "how"...if i'm reading things right "we will be like him".

Comforting thought

~T

[Infinite Grace]

Thom,
I believe that we are already like him - because the first century believers "saw him as he" was. God came to humanity, in humanity, to marry humanity, to make us all divine. When we unite in love, we are divine, for Divinity is Love; i.e. God is love. We are IN the divine family - all of us.

[Jotham]

Thom,
I believe that we are already like him - because the first century believers "saw him as he" was...We are IN the divine family - all of us.

Got it and yes that is what i believe in the spiritual sense. I was thinking on the non-spiritual side of the issue...like; please tell me i won't be walkin' around in THIS body of mine!

Waaaaaa, I wan't the Q-Continuum
http://www.accrete.com/forum_avatars/accrete09.jpg
to zoom, zoom around God's creation with all of you