talking with the secular

[Amie]

For those of you who don't (or won't if you're new or just reading along) know, my background is fairly diverse - or at least I like to believe it.

My Mom and Mom's Mom were Methodists (non-practicing or iow, they only went to church on Easter ;)).

My Mom's Dad was (get ready) an anthroplogist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropology)! He is wholly secular and he agrees largely with Mark Twain's views of God and religion.

I don't know about my Dad's Dad, but his Mom was Church of Christ. That part of my family believed in the doctrines of the CoC, but did not go because they also believed that the "church" was people and not a place. My Dad tried going for alittle over a year if my memory serves me correctly and brought me along then. It didn't work out though.

I attended different churches with friends as a "visitor" over the years.

My Mom's best friend is Jewish ;).

My S'Dad is completely secular (though his Dad was a CoC preacher). He introduced me to different spiritual beliefs - though I suspect that they were all introed with his twist, haha.

Our neighbor (friend's Dad) and my future (and now ex-) father-in-law is a Presbytarian Preacher.

My S'Mom is CoC, and her brother is a CoC preacher... the rest of the family seemed pretty secular.

I liked (still do) to read the bible, anything science, poetry, and scary stories :).

I tried finding a church to attend a few times, and never found one that I was happy with.

So eh, I'm not sure whether or not I would qualify as secular. I can tell you that I had to learn a lot of lingo from many of these fine folks 'round here. I like to believe that I do fairly well talking with the religious and the non-religious.

Here's the point of all of this, lol: When I tell someone secular "God is with us", they said "I know". When I say "You are free from religious laws!", they say "I know"; and usually then begin to look at me funny (which is nothing new for those who know me, lol).

If I tell them my view of eschatology, they say "makes sense". In my experience, that's pretty much the conversation. They go on living their lives the way that they were. Some work to better themselves, some not - but society keeps improving anyway.

I haven't seen a need to drill them with Theology or to convince them that it's necessary (another law).

On one hand, Christians bound to fear and control say they are not "in need of a physician" - they're not "sick". One the other, secular folks say the same thing.

It seems to me that Grace works to benefit both whether they believe they are sick or not - and whether or not they are sick.

Any thoughts?

Amie

[Infinite Grace]

Amie,
What's funny is that, I think it was, Martin Luther who said that there wasn't any such thing as "secular." Everything is sacred.

The fact that we have learned to talk in religious terms is something entirely separate from the view of the Sacred. The Sacred is God, and all his creation. That's why life is precious. That's why love is so universal. That's why humaness stretches across racial, gender, and socio-economic lines.

I would say that each of those people that you have described as secular probably have added much to your life, and your understanding of the Sacred. That's a good thing. I am trying each day to learn from someone new.

[christyG]

Well said, both of you.

Amie,

My experience with "the secular" is the same. I would have the same view.

IMO grace is at work in our world and (don't cut my head off:uhh: )it seems to work through MANY avenues. I know, I know that Jesus made all this happen, but as Amie said on another thread.. there is not A road to heaven with many or one path, but heaven a reality for all.

I am a digger and have dug up truth in MANY locations...modern science, even something called subtle science, ancient religions, Eastern religions, ancient cultures, the smile of a child, the flutter of a butterfly, a beautiful sunset, etc..........TRUTH is in it all isn't it? This may not be the place for THIS discussion however.:)

However, I do attend church, although as I have stated, mine is pretty open and has some good things to offer, but still a traditional church in many senses. I was not taken to church as a child, although both my parents were brought up Methodist. My father lived in a very small mountain community here in WV and went to a one room school house that let out school when "the rivival" came to town. For my parents, religion was a part of their everyday lives.
My mother is a very intelligent woman and has instilled a love of learning in all of her children (7 total) and has allowed us to persue religion in any way that we wished or wished not, whatever the case.

Christy

[Paige]

Your mom sounds like a very wonderful lady :) I agree that truth is truth, wherever it happens to be found. I also like what Martin Luther had to say regarding "everything is sacred." I feel we create problems when we want to start slicing and dicing life up into compartments. I think that is how we got to the place where people would act a certain way, in a certain place, on a certain day; and then can be someone completely different on another day, in another location. That strikes me as very confusing to the children and others looking on.

Paige

[Amie]

I'm just stopping by real quick before we go out (daughter needs clothes) and wanted to clarify quickly that I define "secular" as "non-religious" not "non-sacred". Is that a matter of opinion or ignorance?

Amie

[Infinite Grace]

Amie,
I wasn't trying to say anything derogatory about your wording, it is just that typically, the dichotomy is between sacred vs. secular. I know that more and more in today's society, they are using secular in the way that you intended. The challenge to those of us here is that we must then consider ourselves secular; i.e., non-religious.

I consider myself SACRED though, for I am made in the divine image, partaking in the divine nature, a possessor of the divine spark that ignites with other divine sparks to be the divine humanity. That's pretty sacred.

Again, no offense intended - I'm just talking.

[Paige]

I consider myself SACRED though, for I am made in the divine image, partaking in the divine nature, a possessor of the divine spark that ignites with other divine sparks to be the divine humanity. That's pretty sacred.

I love the way you worded that, Ed! :clap2:

Paige

[Amie]

I am a digger and have dug up truth in MANY locations...modern science, even something called subtle science, ancient religions, Eastern religions, ancient cultures, the smile of a child, the flutter of a butterfly, a beautiful sunset, etc..........TRUTH is in it all isn't it? This may not be the place for THIS discussion however.

I think that this is the perfect place. Especially the "subtle science, ancient cultures, the smile of a child, the flutter of a butterfly, a beautiful sunset" because it is in these places that the non-religious know God already. Another common experience that I know of, is the knowing of God in suffering.


I wasn't trying to say anything derogatory about your wording..

I didn't take it that way either :). I wanted to clarify what I meant by the word hoping to also clarify what I meant in my post. I'm not sure it would be "bad" either way, just not exactly what I mean, know what I mean? (haha!)


I consider myself SACRED though, for I am made in the divine image, partaking in the divine nature, a possessor of the divine spark that ignites with other divine sparks to be the divine humanity. That's pretty sacred.

I don't feel comfortable with calling me "sacred" right now.

"Sacred" in my experience is native American burial grounds, a voodoo Priest's tools, and cats in Egypt. It is also "hallowed" like the ground that Moses stood upon.

In one circumstance, it is something dear to the hearts of a group of people. In the other, it was the very ground that God manifested on.

I know that the first doesn't really apply to me as a person. The second though, is very much what Ed describes. I feel that the manifestations of God with Moses, and in Jesus, were different than God in us. I'm interested in exploring this, though I am okay if we turn out to be different again :).

Amie

[Lou]

Well said, both of you.



IMO grace is at work in our world and (don't cut my head off:uhh: )it seems to work through MANY avenues. I know, I know that Jesus made all this happen, but as Amie said on another thread.. there is not A road to heaven with many or one path, but heaven a reality for all.

I am a digger and have dug up truth in MANY locations...modern science, even something called subtle science, ancient religions, Eastern religions, ancient cultures, the smile of a child, the flutter of a butterfly, a beautiful sunset, etc..........TRUTH is in it all isn't it? This may not be the place for THIS discussion however.:)


Christy


Christy that is a good point, God is the creator and Lord of all things. “Christians” say that the bible is the only source of knowledge. The bible is a foundation but it only takes us to AD70 when God’s plan for us starts.

[Infinite Grace]

I see the bible, not as the only SOURCE of truth, but the only STANDARD of truth. What I mean by that is that we can find truth in a variety of places, even other religions (or, god forbid, psychology), but it should be filtered through the revelation of God found in the bible.

This of course necessitates a proper understanding of the scriptures, which unfortunately, I am not sure most of us have (meaning all Christians, not us here exclusively). E.g., John McPherson over at PP believes in reincarnation. Some folks claim that the bible doesn't TEACH reincarnation. That may be true enough, but it also doesn't teach against reincarnation when you understand the eschatological context of the verses used by futurists to teach against reincarnation. IOW, the "proof texts" against reincarnation, when understood in the first century context, do not teach against reincarnation.

am I making sense?

[Paige]

Yes, I think you are making sense. For me personally, I'm trying to better understand scripture after the many years of it being taught to mean what I don't see it meaning anymore. That is why I'm so appreciative of everybody here! Just recently, Davo's study on the meaning of Heb. 9:27 was instrumental in helping me see the meaning that makes so much more sense in the context that the vs. was written. And I agree about scripture being the standard through which I can identify truth wherever it is found.

Paige

[Amie]

I don't filter "subtle science, ancient cultures, the smile of a child, the flutter of a butterfly, and/or a beautiful sunset" through the bible. I think God can be known outside of theology - theology is a bonus imo.

I don't think that there are any more
"have-to's", "should's", "gotta's", "must's", etc. We are completely free - even from having to read the bible. Knowing the bible story, imo, is a blessing. It illuminates God's love and His sacrifice. It is a beautiful story and there are many principles to draw from - much wisdom. I do not think that it is a necessity to enjoy life, to peruse the law written on the hearts of all of humanity, to appreciate beauty, or even to love God.

Amie

[christyG]

Amie said:


I don't filter "subtle science, ancient cultures, the smile of a child, the flutter of a butterfly, and/or a beautiful sunset" through the bible. I think God can be known outside of theology - theology is a bonus imo.

I don't think that there are any more
"have-to's", "should's", "gotta's", "must's", etc. We are completely free - even from having to read the bible. Knowing the bible story, imo, is a blessing. It illuminates God's love and His sacrifice. It is a beautiful story and there are many principles to draw from - much wisdom. I do not think that it is a necessity to enjoy life, to peruse the law written on the hearts of all of humanity, to appreciate beauty, or even to love God.

Amie

I'm almost afraid to agree with this statement, but I do.:clap2:
Even here, it seems almost anti-God to make such a statement, you know what I mean?

But more and more I find that I am finding more truth "out there" than in between the pages of my Bible. And it is helping me understand the truth of the fact the THE TRUTH (all truth) is already in me waiting to be uncovered. It seems that my heart recognizes "good" things when it sees it. Things that may be worthy of being called truth. Now, sometimes I need to tweek my view just a bit, and untwist some of the details, but there are good things out there waiting to be discovered if we would just give ourselves the freedom God has already given us.

This doesn't take me completely away from Bible study. I do go back to scriptures and read them with new eyes each time.

JMO

Christy

[Amie]

..there are good things out there waiting to be discovered if we would just give ourselves the freedom God has already given us.

Amen! Therein lies the crux of the matter imo. I wonder how possible that even is?


This doesn't take me completely away from Bible study. I do go back to scriptures and read them with new eyes each time.

Me neither! I love studying the bible and bible relating things.

Amie

[Infinite Grace]

Christy and Amie,
The only thing that I feel is lacking in your approach is that you make statements like "the freedom God has already given us..." Upon what do you base this? I agree with it, but I do so because I found it in the scriptures that speak of Jesus Christ. I do not find this stuff in Buddha's writings, or Mohammed's writings. That is not to say that Buddha may not have stumbled onto some good truth (as I pointed out in my last post), however, if you take Buddha's teaching, there is NOT a freedom to relish in, but an ideal to aspire to and struggle to attain. Buddhism and other religions do not teach that God is pleased with us, and that we have been given freedom by God. In fact, Buddhism, for those of you who do not know, does not even teach the existence of God - god is all of us together.

Now, while I believe, as I said in another thread that all of us together are divine, I said it within the context of the truths found in the bible that state that God became man and thereby divinized humanity. I base this on the bible. There is no other religious document that states as much - at least none that I am aware of.

[Amie]

The only thing that I feel is lacking in your approach is that you make statements like "the freedom God has already given us..." Upon what do you base this?

I am not detracting from the blessings found from studying the bible and bible related things. I affirm that Christianity has the "right" story and is the accurate religion, etc. I want to underscore that I feel that the Gospel is worth devoting my life to.

I base statements such as those on the reality we live in. God made freedom a reality (I base on Scripture), and reality demonstrates it (no Scripture needed). Iow, we are free as a reality whether we ("we" meaning "humanity") deny it and assign ourselves laws or not. People will realize that as a whole in time.

I thank God that I was able to understand that it is all by him and through him. I don't claim either to have perfect biblical understanding. I feel though, that we have been let in on something wonderful.

Amie