"those outside the gates"

[Amie]

I would very much like the identity of "those outside the gates" clarified and am hoping to gain some help from you guys :).

Before we get started on that though, I'm interested on y'alls understanding of the chronology of even the verses in Revelation 21. Some say that those outside the gates are described after the NC has been delivered and so there must be a distinction (between those "in" and "out") today.

It seems to me that John's vision was complete when the city was delivered and so he goes into a recap, sort of summary.

It would be like me saying.. I saw in a vision - People that wore orange, red, and pink could not participate in receiving the goose which layed the golden eggs. People that wore orange, red, and pink tried to prevent everyone else from inheriting the golden egg laying goose, but it didn't work. They couldn't inherit the golden egg laying goose because they were invisible to her. She was delivered and was a beautiful goose. - therefore, people wearing shades of red will not inherit the goose.

I hope that analogy made sense, lol. Is that how y'all read it and do you have more sensible ways to address the chronology?

Thanks,

Amie

[Barry]

Amie,
Your analogy was so accurate I got goosebumps. :rofl::rofl:

IMO the "outside" KJV "without" is an old covenant identity. It applied in the forming of the NJ. Or the "coming down" phase of it. The "outside" is a recap that John constantly does.
The outcome being that those who were then presently in OC identity were outside and would not inherit in the formation of the NJ. The consequence upon them was permanent as pertains to what they then were. So then it can be spoken of and is spoken of as a "never" enter in as pertains to the consequence upon this identity (old covenant). The lie could never enter is a permanent consequence not an eternal "ongoing" application. The lie passed away in AD 70.
JMO
Barry

[Infinite Grace]

Amie,
I see those outside the city as the covenant breaking Israel. In the OC, people who were "out of the covenant" were pictured outside the city. John was demonstrating to his readers the fact that those unbelieving Israelites were NOT in covenant, but were, in fact, outside the city. The City is so important in covenant, that's why John described the unfaithful city as "the mother of all harlots" and the faithful city as "the dwelling place of God."

Those outside the city experienced "the second death," "the lake of fire," which was their destruction according to the dictates of the law. Once "dead" they were available to be accepted by God in the resurrection of the unjust (who had been in condemnation - the DoJ).

Hope that clarifies my position, at least.

[backtothefuture]

I have often wondered this myself. Some of my friends would explain it as everyone got to heaven, but some didn't get in. Kind of weird. Is inside the gates the new Jerusalem? The freedom from the law is there? Or could those outside the gates, be the ones who watched Jerusalem burn? Thinking they had to get in to be saved? I know these are odd questions.
I also don't understand what is the first death that you talk about and then the second death.
Thanks,
Nancy:confused:

[Amie]

Nancy,

I agree with Ed and Barry. What I was saying is that when John describes the New Jerusalem being delivered ("coming down out of Heaven from God, having been prepared as a bride, having been adorned for her Husband") he is still "in the spirit" (Rev 1:10) in my opinion. After he sees it delivered, he is back in his 'present time' and almost concludes that the "liars etc" wouldn't therefore get in.

Look at this:

Rev 21
7 The one overcoming will inherit all things, and I will be God to him, and he will be the son to Me.

This supports that John was thinking back at his present time again because by the time the New Jerusalem is delivered, folks had already "overcome".
The first death is separation from God, the "second death" is the "death of death" imo.




All--

Rev 21
8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving, and those having become foul, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the lying ones, their part will be in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Do you think it's possible to define each adjective contextually?

The "lying ones" as I understand are the ones who said Messiah had not come in the flesh.

1 John 2
22 Who is the liar, except the one denying, saying that Jesus is not the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one denying the Father and the Son.
23 Everyone denying the Son does not have the Father. The one confessing the Son also has the Father.

1 John 4
2 By this know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.
3 And every spirit which does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not from God; and this is the antichrist which you heard is coming, and now is already in the world.

I know that Israel was called idolaters many times in the OT - how would they qualify as such in Jesus day? My thought is that they still identified God with Baal. What do y'all think?

Amie

[Barry]

Exactly!
Barry
PS the last sentence I'd have to study through. Off hand though, ya.

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
I think the law was their idol.
Nancy

[Amie]

Hi,
I think the law was their idol.
Nancy

Good thought to chew on :)

Thanks,

Amie

[Dano]

This is probably carrying the theme of “unclean” things as per the OT Law being burned “outside the camp,” thereby connecting John’s list of dogs, murderers, etc. to that which is unclean and deserving of the second death; the lake of fire AD 70 judgment -- the burning of one Jerusalem and the arrival of another.

Reading from the first century vantage point of John, who pleads Jesus to “come,” comes the perspective of a not-quite-yet but soon arrival or presence/face of Christ – and from that point he can see those on the outside who will soon have a rude awakening. The thrust of that verse is audience specific and relevant to a crowd, who in Jesus’s time, were no doubt enemies of the cross.

[davo]

Just a snippet from an article I'm soon to post on my site that I'll link to this thread:

1] Dogs and sorcerers [Phil 3:2]. Evil workers and mutilators – those who promulgated law observance for righteousness.

2] Sexually immoral, murders, idolaters and liars [Mt 5:21-22, 28, 32; Col 3:5; 1Cor 10:14; 1Jn 2:22; 3:15]. According to Jesus, John and Paul none of these were restricted in their literalness.

3] Whoever loves OR practices a lie [Col 3:9; 1Tim 4:1-3]. Again, this was life under the old covenant, out of which some of Paul's audience was coming.

All these categories mentioned above were the fruits of life under the old covenant, indicative of "works of the flesh" – life lived according to the self righteousness of the law, against which the life in the Spirit of the new covenant railed, as is listed in Gal 5:18-21.

[Amie]

I think we all agree :)

Davo Col 3:5-11 clears a lot up, thanks.. Sharing it with others:

Col 3
5 ¶ Then put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil lust, and covetousness, which is idolatry;
6 on account of which things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience,
7 among whom you also walked at one time, when you were living in these.
8 ¶ But now, you also, put off all these things: wrath, anger, malice, evil-speaking, shameful speech out of your mouth.
9 Do not lie to one another, having put off the old man with his practices,
10 and having put on the new, having been renewed in full knowledge according to the image of the One creating him,
11 where there is no Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, slave or freeman, but Christ is all things and in all.

Amie

[Amie]

And (I hate to do this to ya Barry - okay maybe not, haha), wouldn't this then be synonymous with "blasphemy of the holy spirit"?

Thanks,

Amie

[Amie]

Thoughts on "uncleanliness" lately..


Rev 21
25 And its gates may not at all be shut by day, for no night will be there.
26 And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.
27 And all profaning may not at all enter into it, or any making an abomination or a lie; but only the ones having been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb.


1 Corinthians 7
14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified by the husband; else, then, your children are unclean, but now they are holy.



Acts 11
7 And I heard a voice saying to me, Peter, rise up, slay and eat.
8 But I said, Not at all, Lord, because never has anything common or unclean entered into my mouth.
9 But a voice answered me the second time out of the heaven, What God has cleansed, you do not make common.
10 And this took place three times, and all things were pulled up into the heaven again.

[SoteriologicalSecurity]

I've read through the comments, and sorry, I'm a little slow. Still not getting it, and this is one I'm really struggling with and want to better understand.

How is it that those outside the gates could pertain to the old covenant when the arrival of the New Jerusalem signified the end of the old covenant, the restoration of all things, God's being all in all, the making of all things new, the salvation of all Israel, etc.? If all Israel is saved at this time (which I believe) how did some of them stay outside the gates?

BTW, Aimee, just listened to your lessons from Sjolander Rd (sp?). Good stuff!

[SoteriologicalSecurity]

Ok, another thought that just came to me.

Those outside the gates weren't locked out. The gates are always open.

Later on of course, an invitation was extended for ALL to come and drink of the water of life, inlcuding those who were outside the gates. How long each one remained hardened before doing so is something we don't know, but the gates remain open forever, and surely not one will resist forever the invitation to come into the gates and enjoy the salvation He has given them.

Does that make sense?

[Barry]

I've read through the comments, and sorry, I'm a little slow. Still not getting it, and this is one I'm really struggling with and want to better understand.

How is it that those outside the gates could pertain to the old covenant when the arrival of the New Jerusalem signified the end of the old covenant, the restoration of all things, God's being all in all, the making of all things new, the salvation of all Israel, etc.? If all Israel is saved at this time (which I believe) how did some of them stay outside the gates?

BTW, Aimee, just listened to your lessons from Sjolander Rd (sp?). Good stuff!

Welcome Soteriological. Feel free to introduce yourself in our introduction thread.

Great question.
Here is the text from Rev 22:15.


Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.
Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

This text is actually easier IMHO than the previous chapter. But here it is very evident that he is dealing with a pre end of age setting.

Barry

[SoteriologicalSecurity]

I hear what you're saying Barry, but the problem I have then is that if NJ is around pre-end of the age, that would seem to suggest that the 70th week was consummated prior to the end of the age, as the NJ is where the completion of the six blessings that would come at that time are found. Make sense?

[SoteriologicalSecurity]

Sorry, probably making this more complicated than it is. :confused: So much there, and just trying to grasp it. Thanks!:o

[immortalson]

Hi everybody,

My two cents - you will all probably have a field day with this one:)

Symbolically speaking and seeing...
The New Jerusalem is the condition of the human being as such that the soul (ego) no longer finds its identity in self but rather in God. Jesus' prayer in John 17 comes to pass as we become "one."

The soul is that "prepared bride adorned" for her husband, the Spirit of God.

Those outside the gates (the gate can be a symbol for the mind) are those who have not yet experienced union and is that condition of mortal man, ego driven, capable of all the things mentioned in verse 8.

Their place is in the the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.

My question to you all is, Who is the all consuming fire?

Those reticent to retire the ego will be consumed with the fire of God, all consuming, purifying LOVE until they experience that second death, the death to self and ego.

Endless love,
Barb

[Amie]

Sorry, probably making this more complicated than it is. :confused: So much there, and just trying to grasp it. Thanks!:o

Actually, I really liked your take and am not just saying that because you complimented my talk ;).

I am thinking that the "coming" or "consummation" was a process that took about 40 years. As the NJ was coming (being inherited on behalf of all), the OJ was aging and passing away. I totally get what you're saying about the gates being eternally opened and am on board. During the time frame, when the Kingdom was being inherited, there were also those who were hardened who would not inherit it on behalf of all - outside the gates. Rather, they would inherit life along with the all that the first fruits inherited it on behalf of - is that as clear as mud?

Oh and I just love your username! :biglaugha:

Amie

[Amie]

Barb,

Imv, the fire was the Word of God. I think that the ego already lost authority by the Word of God of course.

Amie

[immortalson]

Amie,

Yes, I understand yours and others who hold to the same view as you.
And, you believe the word of God is the Bible, correct?

Thanks,
B

[Amie]

Amie,

Yes, I understand yours and others who hold to the same view as you.
And, you believe the word of God is the Bible, correct?

Thanks,
B

The Word of God was the testimony of Jesus. The bible is a collection of texts which tell a story. It contains records of Jesus's testimony by those who witnessed it, and who contained it.

If you want to talk about the Word of God, that would make a nice thread :).

Amie

[immortalson]

Hi Amie,

Thanks for the encouragement to start a thread on this, but I already did a couple of months back... Not a lot of feed back on it...

Barb

[Amie]

Hi Amie,

Thanks for the encouragement to start a thread on this, but I already did a couple of months back... Not a lot of feed back on it...

Barb

I went and looked it up - sorry for the (Ok "my") confusion!

:D

Amie

[micahtredding]

Those outside the city experienced "the second death," "the lake of fire," which was their destruction according to the dictates of the law. Once "dead" they were available to be accepted by God in the resurrection of the unjust (who had been in condemnation - the DoJ).

Why is it assumed that those outside the NJ were in the Lake of Fire? It seems to me that after judgment, there are 3 groups:

those in the NJ
those outside the NJ
those in the Lake of Fire

I've always understood the situation to be that the NJ is set up on earth, and those ignoring God are outside the NJ. This would be the people living on earth, not having experienced the Lake of Fire.

Does this make any sense?

-micah

[Barry]

Hi Micah.
Spesifically Revelation's Chapter 22:15's "outslide" or "without" is prior to the end of the age.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

We can I think compare verse 22:11 in it's pre end of age context with that of Mark

Mar 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

This matches the pre end of age, He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still.

Just a thought,
Barry

[What is truth?]

I've always understood the situation to be that the NJ is set up on earth, and those ignoring God are outside the NJ.


Precisely

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they MAY HAVE RIGHT to the tree of life, and MAY ENTER enter in through the gates into the city.
22:15 For WITHOUT are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

[Amie]

Hi Micah.
Spesifically Revelation's Chapter 22:15's "outslide" or "without" is prior to the end of the age.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

We can I think compare verse 22:11 in it's pre end of age context with that of Mark

Mar 4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

This matches the pre end of age, He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still.

Just a thought,
Barry

I agree, the "liars, etc" are outside the gates prior to the end of the age.

(Davo, I find a lot of your work to the point and easy to understand which is a rare jewel imv.)

The below from: http://pantelism.com


Those Outside the Gates
Rev 22:14-15
by David Embury

An appeal is sometimes made to Rev 22:14-15 and then the question asked: "what then happens to the wicked at death?"

This may depend on how "the wicked" are defined – see how Jesus and Paul defined such Mt 5:21-22, 27-28; 1Cor 6:9-11a; Gal 5:19-20. It can safely be said that we all fit in these categories somewhere at some time, and just to cover all possible bases of kingdom excluding behaviour Paul in Gal 5:21 qualifies further by saying "[I]…and the like…" – in other words, any form of unrighteousness disqualifies. What is mentioned in these verses was the fruit of those who perpetually lived under the law. Paul in Galatians 5 contrasts Law against Grace, Flesh against Spirit, Old Covenant versus New Covenant – it was life under the old versus life in the new. And so it was that these works "of the flesh" being lived according to self righteousness of law observance were railing against that of life "in the Spirit", as listed in Gal 5:18-21.

If correct behaviour in life becomes the determining factor concerning "eternal security" in death then what was the point of Christ's death and resurrection? The truth is, entering the Kingdom was never about "going to Heaven when we die" – but about entering in on the call of God for service today, in this life. IF good behaviour cannot be the qualifier that gains one's entrance into Heaven beyond death; then neither can bad behaviour be the disqualifier that bars and excludes one from Heaven beyond death either. God's grace through Christ's obedience removed man's unrighteousness, and pathed the way for all humanity to be at peace with Him in and beyond this life. The price paid for unrighteous behaviour however is invariably found in this life – what happens beyond this life as far as "works" are concerned, apart from "rewards", the Scriptures are relatively silent on.

Now do we then just live like the devil? – certainly not! Are we so shallow that the only reason we don't deliberately go out and do wrong is to keep our salvation? Or is it a case of we "do right" in honour of God and His great mercy. Paul wrote to Timothy of God's all encompassing deliverance that ministers through "especially of those who believe" [1Tim 4:10] because believers know that which is the good to do, and so live fully in it.

Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Rev 22:14-15 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

So who were these insolent ones outside, those experiencing the lake of fire? In a word and in biblical the context – those under and beholden to the Old Covenant mode of existence; these were the one's who would experience the terrors of Second Death.

Jesus, John and Paul made it clear as to who these idolatrously abominable, sexually immoral, murderous dogs, practicing liars, sorcerous and cowardly unbelieving ones were. They were none other than those who clung or returned to their old covenant mode of existence, those who would die in their sins [Jn 8:24] not knowing in life the forgiveness that was theirs, thus they were "twice dead" [Jude 1:12]:

1] Dogs and sorcerers [Phil 3:2]. Evil workers and mutilators – those who promulgated law observance for righteousness.

2] Sexually immoral, murders, idolaters and liars [Mt 5:21-22, 28, 32; Col 3:5; 1Cor 10:14; 1Jn 2:22; 3:15]. According to Jesus, John and Paul none of these were restricted in their literalness.

3] Whoever loves OR practices a lie [Col 3:9; 1Tim 4:1-3]. Again, this was life under the old covenant, out of which some of Paul's audience was coming.

All these categories mentioned above were relative to life under the old covenant, indicative of "the works of the flesh" – life lived according to the law, yet never free from its condemnation, but worse, its self attendant self-righteousness in keeping Torah which these Judaizers were trusting in – having their show of righteousness yet rotten to the core [Rom 2:1]. All of which life according to the Spirit in the new covenant, railed – as is listed in Gal 5:18-21.

Summing up these Paul goes on to say:

1Cor 10:6-11 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play." Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Yes, these described above were the Judaizers, those beholden to the old covenant for righteousness and so remaining outside the realm of God's full new covenant blessings in life.

As can be seen from Scripture, these things were indicative of life under the old covenant, out of which Paul's audience [relevance] had come or had intimate knowledge of [Act 2:5, 9-11; 15:21]. Likewise, John's exhortation in Rev 21:8; 22:14-15 needs to be understood as applicable to those of the transitional "end-of-the-ages" covenantal context and setting. To give the 'lake of fire' perpetuity past its AD70 fulfillment in the destruction of Jerusalem would no doubt find all qualified in some number of the above categories – and knowing that according to Scripture to break one is to break them all would thus leave ALL "outside".

Those ones "outside" were outside of the covenantal service of God as it was in the "this generation" era AD30-70, and thus came under the covenantal and corporeal judgment of Israel's 'lake of fire' – the old covenants world's "second" and final death; not finding deliverance [salvation] into the age about to come, but perishing instead in there unbelief [Jn 3:16-18, 36] – the very thing Jesus prophesied would happen IF Israel would not "repent" and believe her Messiah [Lk 13:3-5]. These were they who remained – "outside the gates".

Post end of the age - no one is unclean.

Amie

[Laren]

I agree, the "liars, etc" are outside the gates prior to the end of the age.

(Davo, I find a lot of your work to the point and easy to understand which is a rare jewel imv.)

The below from: http://pantelism.com



Post end of the age - no one is unclean.

Amie


Hi Amie,

My question is, were they ever unclean? Did God view them as unclean? or was it a perception problem?

If it was a perception problem, then one could see how even today, there are those outside the gaits, not living in unconditional love, but with a perceived mindset of failure, not good enough and "never measure up". And I see how the "new age" is a conceptual truth, but not a "perception truth".

??

[Amie]

Laren,

The point of Israel and the law was to put the perception problem that you rightly point out under a magnifying glass. They were the children called to the front of the class for demonstration. They were no more important than any other child, yet the appreciation for what they went through is notable imv.

Anyhow, people today might still believe in clean vs unclean but there is no God given authority which validates that (though there are people who lay claim to such authority - none that I know of have parted the Red Sea). Rather, God validated that all were clean by allowing the judges under magnification to bring judgment upon themselves through their own judging - know what I mean?

Amie

[Laren]

Laren,

The point of Israel and the law was to put the perception problem that you rightly point out under a magnifying glass. They were the children called to the front of the class for demonstration. They were no more important than any other child, yet the appreciation for what they went through is notable imv.

Anyhow, people today might still believe in clean vs unclean but there is no God given authority which validates that (though there are people who lay claim to such authority - none that I know of have parted the Red Sea). Rather, God validated that all were clean by allowing the judges under magnification to bring judgment upon themselves through their own judging - know what I mean?

Amie

yeah, i do know what u mean I think, and see the authority as "subjected to vanity, blinded eyes, not being able to see through the veil.". But now the veil is torn. The veil can never be sewn back together again. It is finished.

Is that what u mean too?

[Amie]

yeah, i do know what u mean I think, and see the authority as "subjected to vanity, blinded eyes, not being able to see through the veil.". But now the veil is torn. The veil can never be sewn back together again. It is finished.

Is that what u mean too?

Yes! The gig is up :D

Amie

[davo]

Amie... fancy me not unashamedly posting a link to my article :biglaugha:

I think that those "outside" are only there on a practical basis -- in reality the gates have been blown off their hinges, but in perception in many minds they are bolted and fastened hard shut, and "churchianity" likes to keep it that way.

[What is truth?]

Rev21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the HOLY JERUSALEM, descending out of heaven from God,
21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length * is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed *, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
21:18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
21:20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every * several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
21:22 And I saw no temple therein *: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
21:27 And there shall in NO WISE ENTER enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

[davo]

In light of the Texts above let me clarify: those "outside" are those outside of the call of God to service. Those "entering" were those called to minister [serve] to those outside -- as per Rev 22:2.

[Barry]

21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
21:27 And there shall in NO WISE ENTER enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I do not see on ongoing "outside" people here. Certainly not an Outside in the framework of a perpetuated working "lie" or "abomination". Outside is a covenantal framework that would then no longer exist as such.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

As a matter of end of age judgment the nations that are saved bring their glory into the NJ.

The Kings of the earth that bring their glory into the NJ is the firstfruits.
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The old covenant "kings of the earth" are not bringing any perpetuating efficacy into the NJ. They had no perpetuating efficacy to bring in.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out:
perpetuating efficacy
and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.


21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
This is the perpetuating efficacy of the NJ.

21:27 And there shall in NO WISE ENTER enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

This simply means that such never got in to make a perpetuating efficacy therein. Such was the conclusion of the lake of fire.

Perpetuating efficacy and historical shame in and through the end of age Jugment are common theams throughout scripture.

Here are some verses on historical shame in the historical demise of the self defined ego.

Eze 16:63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

Forgiven but an historical implication laid down for what the ego was in its historical demise. And so no perpetuating efficacy as the "never open thy mouth any more" indicates.

Jer 23:39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, [and cast you] out of my presence:
Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.

"Utterly forget you" is the covenantal opposite of perpetuating efficacy. They are forgiven as people but the historical shame upon the audience relevant "ego identity" is historically never forgotten.

Same thing here:

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

All manner of sin and blasphemy was indeed completely forgiven. But historically as an impact toward the demise of the self defined ego, the history is never re-written or deleted.

Same point in: "the worm never dies". It is not taken out of history.
And here:
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

This is speaking in audience relevance to the historical demise of the self defined ego. What "it" cherished is the very thing that "it" could not have.


21:27 And there shall in [B]NO WISE ENTER enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

This is not an ongoing or post judgement, judgment concerning the book of life.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
This is an end of age judgment. As the "book of life" is always used in this way.

Hope this made some sense here. The study of "Perpetuating efficacy" and it's counter part is IMHO one of the most neglected studies in scripture.

I think Davo has a piece on this scripture below which deals with this same concept:
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Maybe he or someone can link it up.
Blessings
Barry

[Barry]

Here is Davo's post on Lk 12:4-7 that I found elsewhere in this site.
As silly a "label" as it is, I've come to call this study the study of "Perpetuating efficacy". This is what the latter part of Davo's post is IMHO touching on. [Not to speak for Davo, that is just what I think I'm seeing which I highlighted in blue.]


These are all good thoughts and make up a fair summary of what this passage means – certainly God CAN DO, but ability does not always equate to intentionality e.g., "For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones." Mt 3:9. And I believe there is a strong "historical" accounting or testimony to the old covenant's corruption of that which was lost.

I do think that another aspect of similar nature can be gleaned from Luke's parallel passage AND its wider context which often is overlooked in relation to this, which in turn I think gives a clearer picture yet of what Jesus was saying:

Lk 12:4-7 “And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! “Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

Notice that these passages do not say "after death" as we typically read into it, but simply "after that" i.e., after being killed. You might think there is little difference but I believe there is subtle enough difference to not read into the passage what is NOT there.

To be cast into Gehenna was the lowest form of contempt, disdain and dismissal – apart from the rotting corps of dead animals and the other regular city refuge that was forever ablaze or crawling with maggots [worms], the only other thing of significance that was cast into the fiery heap was the bodies of slain criminals, many of which were Jews adjudged so and summarily executed by the Romans.

Thus to be "cast into Gehenna" was the ultimate rejection of someone's life, i.e., their removal or casting from the memory – or as in the movie "The Village" "those of which we do not speak". The wider context of these passages is that of the disciples facing possible persecution and thus potential loss of life, yet Jesus is telling them that "not one of them is forgotten before God". In other words, unlike the historical record that ends in the contempt of Gehenna, God's "called" are duly numbered and remembered, and will receive rewards according to what they have done in stead of suffering the loss that clinging to the old covenant mode of existence brought.

IMHO this is what is being brought out here:
21:27 And there shall in NO WISE ENTER enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Could use some help here to tie the strands together in the book of Revelation.
Of course you may not agree and that's fine too.
At this moment however I'm stuck on the idea that this will work well contextually in Revelation.

Barry

[What is truth?]

What I find to be is that one of the keys of understanding the Holy City is the Garden of Eden account. The two trees, the two covenants, the flaming sword (WORD) and man's (whosoever will) relation to God.
The Holy City is not one of the physical (flesh) but one of the
spirit/heart/mind which has to do with wisdom, knowledge and understanding of THE WORD OF GOD.
All was fulfilled about 2000 years ago. The Kingdom cannot be understood by applying the spiritual things to the world. If anything the world has been and is sinking into greater decadence.
Without the structure of the Kingdom, the spirit of man is left in a free for all and there is no way and there is no truth.
Sue

[Barry]

Hi Sue,

If anything the world has been and is sinking into greater decadence.
It depends IMHO Sue on what one means by decadence.

Women's rights, civil writes, greater realized sense of interconnectedness through travel, printing press, Internet.

I really don't know anyone who would want to go back to the good old days once they realize what those "good old days" were really like.

I do believe that we are in a transitional period (of realization) where "religious thinking" is being rejected and so more people are in a transitional period of an identity crisis. And such this has its social consequence. But it is IMHO necessary.

The good and evil of the old thinking is being slowly rejected because it did pass away in the end of the age. This is however a growing realization of what is.

I do not see anyone "outside". The NJ is the mother of us all. Not everyone however "knows" that.

Just a thought,
Barry

[Amie]

Ah yes Barry!

And I would add that it is important to consider the state of the world rather than our local.

I know someone who was thinking that the USA was covered with wall to wall traffic and complaining about how horrible the "world" was. I asked her if she had ever flown in an airplane because most of the US is wide open spaces. She said, "Yeah, but who would want to live there." LOL!

Anyhow the entire world has officially recognized human rights now which is awesome imo.


On December 10, 1948 the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights the full text of which appears in the following pages. Following this historic act the Assembly called upon all Member countries to publicize the text of the Declaration and "to cause it to be disseminated, displayed, read and expounded principally in schools and other educational institutions, without distinction based on the political status of countries or territories."

For all of it: http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

This is a great day to be living. We could have lived in Jesus's day when Emperors were believed to be gods and people were horribly mistreated. And that isn't even mentioning things that were seen as normal then -- like physical and sexual child abuse.

Amie