the beasts..

[Amie]

Revelation 13
1 ¶ And I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten diadems, and on its heads names of blasphemy.

Revelation 17
7 ¶ And the angel said to me, Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and of the beast supporting her, the one having the seven heads and the ten horns.

This "sea beast" was "given to it 'to war with the saints, and to overcome them.' And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation." (Rev 13:7, Dan. 7:21) Matthew 23:29-32 reads that the fathers of the scribes and Pharisees murdered the prophets, and that they "fill up the measure" of their fathers.

In Romans 11:1-4, it reads that Elijah pled with God against Israel saying "Lord, "they killed Your prophets," "and they dug down Your altars," "and only I am left, and they seek my life." (1 Kg. 19:10).
The "Divine" says in answer "I reserved to Myself seven thousand men who did not bow a knee to Baal." (1 Kg. 19:18).. or iow, those who have not received the mark of the beast or bowed to his image?

The woman is said to be "drunken with the blood of the saints" and "from the witnesses of Jesus" (Rev 17:6). In Revelation 18:24, in her we find the blood of the prophets and of the saints.

Revelation 16:1-7 reads that the "souls in the sea" "poured out the blood of the saints and of the prophets".

So how can the seven heads be "seven mountains" upon which the woman sits (Rev 17:9), if she is the sea beast having those seven heads?

Consider "heads" as authoritative countries. Can you see that "the woman" and "the beast" has had many heads? Consider how many countries have historically held Israel, and therefore Jerusalem, captive.

In Matthew 23:37, Jesus is recorded as saying "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one killing the prophets and stoning those sent to her. How often I desired to gather your children in the way a bird gathers her chicks under her wings! And you did not desire it."

Jerusalem had many heads upon which to sit and had become as a beast.

Rev 17
10 And the kings are seven. The five fell, and the one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he does come, he must remain a little.
11 And the beast which was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes to perdition.

So the "seven heads" are those who controlled Jerusalem historically. I may be off, but I figure that's something like Egypt, Philistine, Assyria, Babylon, Medes-Persia, Greece, and Rome - and probably sprinkled with Herodian reign (perhaps the one "remaining a little"?) somewhere in there.

The "sea beast" and "the woman" could both certainly be apostate Israel, in that they killed the prophets and the saints both. Daniel 7:23 says that the "fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all kingdoms, and shall devour all the earth, and shall trample it down and crush it." Had they not taken power over "the earth"?

Wouldn't this also make apostate Israel the land beast? Jesus himself says that the Pharisees "fill up the measure" of their fathers. Could they not then be called the proverbial "spitting image" of the sea beast?
Could the four beasts with the seven heads of Daniel 7, be the "sea beast" from out of which the "land beast" emerges?

The "sea beast" of Revelation, has ten horns that would inherit power:

Rev 17
12 And the ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and their power and authority they shall give up to the beast.

Couldn't the above be Roman leaders?

Below there is an eleventh horn described. The ten horns would take away his rulership. Might that sprouting horn be the revolt in Jerusalem, or perhaps the rise of Jewish power? This would therefore be the very horn rising out of the fourth beast.

Daniel 7
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings; they shall rise, and another shall rise after them. And he shall be different from the first, and he shall humble three kings.
25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and he shall wear out the saints of the Most High. And he intends to change times and law. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one half time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his rulership, to cut off and to destroy until the end.
27 And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him.

Okay, so lemme have it :)

Amie

[Lou]

The "sea beast" of Revelation, has ten horns that would inherit power:

Rev 17
12 And the ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and their power and authority they shall give up to the beast.

Couldn't the above be Roman leaders?


Amie


Rev.17:12-16
And the ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive authority as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and their power and authority they shall give up to the beast. These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and the ones with Him are the called and elect and faithful ones. And he says to me, The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples and crowds and nations and tongues. And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, and will make her desolated and naked. And they will eat her flesh, and will burn her down with fire.


The woman is the Jewish High Priesthood and religious leaders/ Jerusalem. Jerusalem was destroyed from inside not from the Roman armies.

I hate to leave this with a negative but it has started to hail and lightening.

[Lou]

The seven mountains are Jewish sects of the first century. The ten kings is Israel’s northern tribes that begun to come to Jerusalem before it’s destruction.

Even though “beast” are used throughout the bible and Jewish writings and represent a powerful force that opposes God and oppresses God’s people at different times it is different forces. I don’t believe the beast of Revelation 13:1 a n Revelation 17 are the same in specific terms.

Revelation 17 is a religious and Revelation 13:1 is a non religious that is in cahoots with the religious.

[Amie]

Lou,

Did the southern Kingdom consist only of Judah and Benjamin, or Judah, Benjamin, and Simeon, with some of Levi?

Thanks,

Amie

[Lou]

Amie Simeon became part of Judah. (Gen.49:7) Although they were restored in the New Covenant. (Ez. 48 and Rev.7)

Also the seven kings of Rev 17 like in other political struggles some will rise and fall to rise again that is what happened with sects like the zealots. That is why I believe we have John saying “Five have fallen, one is, [and] the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. "And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven.”

[Amie]

Lou,

I'm inclined to believe that the seven heads are governments over Israel. Jer 51:42 describes the fate of Babylon upon Israel's exodus, as was the fate of Egypt's army, etc, upon their exodus. Any leader interested in swallowing up (annexing) Israel would be the dragon (ie Ez 29:3). If Israel itself was the sea beast, then the dragon would be Israel's wish to have God's people to itself.

If the seventh head was Herodian, then he will have only continued a short space and will have been of the eight since he was truly owned by Rome.

It is interesting though that there are ten horns and ten lost tribes. There's the problem of the eleventh horn mentioned in Daniel who would loose it's rulership.

I'm still open though and am listening,

Amie

[Lou]

The reason I confine all of this to Israel is below. (Short version)


Rev. 13:2 the dragon gave the beast authority. (Sea beast)
Rev. 13:12 land beast has same authority.
Rev. 20:2 dragon is Satan.
Rev. 19:20 beast destroyed in lake of fire.
Rev. 20:10 Satan destroyed in lake of fire.

The 11th horn does need to be gleaned out. Some of the trouble with beasts the description is similar but may be talking about something completely different.

[Lou]

Amie, Daniel and John wrote about 500 years apart. John “tweaked” the prophecy so the recipients of his time could see it happening to them. I believe John of Gischala is the 11th horn of Daniel 7.

[Amie]

Now ya gotta make me study some history! :)

I'll dig into when I get the chance.

Amie

[Lou]

Amie, in Josephus’ “Wars” is the only historical account on John of Gischala I know of. He was a leader of the zealots, and a vicious leader.

[dwhochner]

Lou,

May I share something interesting from Ben Winter’s book, “The Great Deception: Symbols and Numbers Clarified” and he believe that Daniel’s beasts and John’s beasts were about God’s people within “the heavens and earth”, not about the “Gentiles/non-Israelites”. Here’s an example from his book:

Daniel’s Ten Horn Ages:

1. Alpha-Creation Age (from Adam to postdiluvial)
2. Patriarchal Age
3. Mosaic Age
4. Judges Age
5. Monarchy Age (“Lion”)
6. Divided Kingdom Age (“Bear”)
7. Exilic Age (“Leopard”)
8. Beast Age (“Beast”)
9. Messianic Age (“Lamb”)
10. Omega-Christian Age

#9 appeared during the Beast Age. #10 Appeared during the Messianic Age (during the parousia of Christ in 66-70 AD).

Now as of John’s Eight Head Ages, it began with the “Hebrews” people:

1. Patriarchal Age
2. Mosaic Age
3. Judges Age
4. Monarchy Age (“Lion”)
5. Divided Kingdom Age (“Bear”)
6. Exilic Age (“Leopard”)
8. Beast Age (“Beast”)
7. Messianic Age (“Lamb”)

#2 thru #6, “Five Fallen, #8, “Is Of Seven One”, #7 “One Is” and “Is To Come”.

According to Ben, Rev. 13 with two beasts, one that came up from the sea with 10 horns referring to the 10 tribes of Israel (house of Israel) and other one that came up from the land with 2 horns referring to the Jews (house of Judah). I would recommend you to buy and read his book for more details.

Donald