Define First fruits

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
Many times over the years here the word First Fruits comes up in the conversation. I am not sure I still yet understand. I am trying to.
I guess I would like to know who exactly were the first- first fruits? Where they after Adam and before Christ? Or were first fruits still here until the end of the age?

I also wondered, (I know this is an odd question) was there a first fruit harvest?

What were the qualifications to fall under the first fruit category? Those under the law, but looking ahead to the promise of something better? Kind of like the people in Hebrews 11. WHO died never seeing, but believing. Were they first fruits?

Fruit is used in so many ways. Good, bad, fruitful, etc. There can be a good crop and spoiled crop a grafted in crop like with tangelo's:biglaugha:

SO, maybe I would also like to know the symbolism also behind the choice of word like fruit?

Any thoughts.
Thanks
Nancy
ps. are there know more first fruits? If not, what are we? I guess because I feel like the time a person becomes aware of God for the first time, that kind of makes him/her a first-fruit;)

[Me Again]

There are others here more capable than I at giving the whole first fruits teaching a go, but I'd like to give you a bird's-eye view of what I see us as - and I'm sure there are some who would disagree with me; and that's okay, because I still love them even though they are wrong (I'm a stinker tonight, aren't I?).

Israel was an agricultural nation and so they understood the whole sowing and reaping thing. Just like they understood the descriptors of sheep and goats, which we stumble with due to our trying to cram ancient agricultural/livestock cultures into our modernistic paradigm. So when they heard of the first fruits, they knew that it meant "the first harvest." Those were, per our discussion, those who "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, and were baptized." They were "raised in newness of life" through baptism, and LIVED and REIGNED with Christ.

Then, the "rest of the dead were raised" at the end of the millennium (AD70). This was the rest of Israel (Max King showed in his booklet Israel and Salvation, that the dead in the NT was Israel, who was dead in their trespasses and sins through the ministration of death, the Law). They were "raised from the dead" through the destruction of the old order(Kosmos). All things were made new.

Here is where some might disagree with me. I still see an ongoing harvest (I know, I know Barry, but it's just me, okay?). For those who understand gardening, I don't see Israel as an annual harvest, but as a FIRST harvest that has led to PERENNIAL harvests (not literally yearly, just ongoing).

It was the firstfruits that enabled the rest of Israel to be resurrected ("if the stump is holy, the entire tree is holy"), but as Romans says, "For if their (Israel's) rejection brought reconciliation to the world (all cultures, people, languages, tongues, etc.), what will their acceptance (at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in AD70) be but life from the dead (ongoing life for all humanity)?"

At least that's how I see it.

ed

[Paige]

Nancy,

I would say that there are no more firstfruits. It was a term directly tied to Israel and her feasts which were appointed by God.

There were two types of firstfruits. The first of the first fruit = The barley which coincided with the 3rd feast (Lev.23: 9-14)

The last being timed to the feast of Weeks, which was made up of the wheat harvest (Lev.23: 15-22).

Ed, hope you don't mind in that I differ with you as to an ongoing harvest. (Ha, as I was reading this over, I had the thought that maybe a harvest could be ongoing if it was seen as not having any weeds anymore :) ) I see the entirety of what was promised and prophesied under the OC reaching its fulfillment in 70 ad. You are right on (IMO) in that the result of that harvest is ongoing life for humanity. (I guess the reason I see it finished is due to knowing that God has completed His plan of redemption.) It would be good to kind of nail down some terms about what exactly we are in this new creation.

There is a little blip recorded in Exodus 15:27. IMO, what seems like such an insignificant detail has huge teaching potential as to the nature of the firstfruits as compared with the rest of the OC body (of death). Stepping back further, I think we see the same for Israel as a whole and her relationship to the rest of the world.

I think God chose who would be the wells (Israel), and therefore, who would be the palms (all the rest).

Hope this hasn't just muddied the waters...

Paige

[ozark]

The first fruits were like a mini-harvest given to God that guaranteed the greater harvest. We actually see the first fruits imagery twice in the seven feasts of Israel. Jesus was the first of the first fruits. His resurrection guaranteed the resurrection for all. What was done in Him was then worked out in the first fruits Christians. Thus, we see more first fruits imagery at Pentecost. What happened in them was for all Israel and consequently all of us. It was like what happened to Jesus was spreading. First to Him, then the first fruits, then all Israel and all the world. Very cool imagery if you ask me.

Yet, I also agree with Ed that the realization of what Christ has done is ongoing. It is just a matter of perspective, IMO.

[backtothefuture]

Ed, Your not being stinky, just on tomato withdrawals:biggrinbounce:
Just a great post.
Same for Paige and Doug. I just sit here with my jaw open at times. Good thing We are not hooked up to a web cam!!
I guess talking about the harvests and festivals on another thread just got me thinking about the first fruits and then more about the harvests.
So much for me to learn and still understand. I so appreciate all the time you guys take to explain some of this stuff.
You know, coming out of an Evangelical background, I decided today, not once in 45 years had I ever heard the words, First fruit, first death, second death, first Adam, Second Adam, till I came here.
I wish there was a cheat sheet somewhere on this forum that kind of explained some of that lingo.
I know those kinds of words in the beginning use to scare me and totally think what was being said here was nuts:biglaugha: (and I mean that with love!)
But if I had a list of some of those words and maybe others coming here from more fundamental backgrounds, things would make more sense in leaving the old and going forward.
Thanks so much
Nancy

[Jotham]

Maybe some of this is semantics? Guess i'm missing the difference in views.

I've held for some time the Jesus=FirstOfFirstFruits, Then the First Fruits, Then the Harvest . . .as an ongoing, forevermore kind of happening. So this is not the norm?

[Laren]

THE THREE FESTIVALS AND THE SALVATION OF ALL

There is a beautiful type in the Old Testament that clearly demonstrates when and in what manner all these Unsaved masses will be saved. This Old Testament type is illustrated all through the New Testament, but the blind and unperceiving eyes of Christendom have for the most part failed to see it, believe it, or teach it.

The American Heritage College Dictionary: "type n 6. A figure, representation, or symbol of something to come, such as an event in the Old Testament that foreshadows another in the New Testament," p. 1485. There are many such types beginning back in the the first chapter of Genesis.

Here are just two examples: The Passover in ancient Israel was a type of its true fulfillment to come in our Lord's crucifixion, "Purge out therefore the old leaven that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened [but now speaking spiritually]. For even Christ our PASSOVER [Lamb] is sacrificed [crucified] for us " (I Cor. 5:7). And James 1:18 clearly demonstrates the foreshadowing of the firstfruits harvest by saying: "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a KIND of firstfruits [of the Spring Harvest] of His creatures [not farm products]." It is also important to note that whenever the word "first" is used, it always suggests more to follow -- there is never a Spring harvest without a following Fall harvest. We will now consider three of the Old Testament types that center on the harvest seasons.

In ancient Israel there were three times in the year when all men were to appear before God:

THE WAVE SHEAF (Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover): "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf OF the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest ... And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the FIRST year for a burnt offering unto the Lord" (Lev. 23:10-12).

COMMENT: This wave sheaf of the very first of the firstfruits is a type of our Lord Who was the perfect Lamb without blemish offered in the Spring on Passover. "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUIT of them that sleep" (I Cor. 15:20). Jesus is not the entire firstfruits but rather "the firstfruit OF them that sleep." He is the firstfruit OF the firstfruit or more precisely the "wave sheaf OF the firstfruits." Firstfruit is a term that pertains to agriculture and harvesting. It was never a theological term until introduced into the New Testament with regards to a small number who would be saved prior to a much larger number to be saved later.

THE FIRSTFRUITS (Feast of Weeks): "All the best of the oil , and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the FIRSTFRUITS of them which they shall offer unto the Lord, them have I given thee ... And whatsoever is FIRST RIPE in the land which they shall bring unto the Lord, shall be thine..." (Num. 18:12 & 13). "And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O Lord, has given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the Lord thy God" (Deut. 26:10).

COMMENT: The type in the New Testament of this Old Testament symbol is the Believer. Notice what James tells us, "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of His creatures" (James 1:18). Now a very important point: How far down the road in prophecy can we go until we reach the end of the firstfruits? In Rev. 7:4-8 we read of the sealing of the 144,000. These are a different group from the great innumerable multitude, which no man could number, from every nation and tongue spoken of beginning in verse 9.

In Chapter 14:1 & 4 we are told specifically who these 144,000 are: "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand [notice that the innumerable multitudes from all nations is not mentioned here] ... These are they which were not defiled with women, for they are virgins [as in the Bride of Christ]. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, BEING THE FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:1 & 4). So every believer from the Apostles to the 144,000 just prior to the return of Jesus Christ to establish His reign on the earth, is called and likened to FIRSTFRUITS! So what does this have to do with the lake of fire? EVERYTHING! Everyone saved before the Day of Judging is likened to firstfruits, so there will be no more firstfruits after the white throne judgment.

Paul tells us in Rom. 8:23, "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit..." Nowhere do we read of the "LASTFRUITS," but whenever something is FIRST we also know there is something to follow. Nor are there any references to any "ONLYFRUITS." The firstfruits are clearly not the ONLY fruits! Follow this very closely now, for you are in for a big shock when you understand the type in the fall festival of Tabernacles—the great fall harvest.

THE END-OF-THE-YEAR FEAST OF INGATHERING (Feast of Tabernacles): "And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou has sown in the field and the FEAST OF INGATHERING, which is in the END OF THE YEAR, when you have gathered in thy labours out of the field" (Ex. 23:16).

"Thou shall observe the FEAST OF TABERNACLES seven [number of perfection] days, after that you have gathered in your corn and your wine: And you shall REJOICE IN YOUR FEAST, you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the widow, that are within your gates [that’s just about EVERYONE, wouldn’t you say?]. Seven days [here’s that perfect number again] shall you keep A SOLEMN FEAST [a very important feast to God] unto the LORD your God in the place which the Lord shall choose: because the Lord thy God shall bless you in all your increase, and in all the works of your hands, therefore you shalt surely REJOICE" (Deut. 16:13-15). Here truly was a festival in which EVERYONE, every single person in all Israel, and also did you notice, "the STRANGER" who was NOT an Israelite could really REJOICE! THIS FESTIVAL WAS THE HAPPIEST TIME OF THE YEAR! Do we think it will have no fulfillment in God’s grand plan of salvation?

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, the fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the FEAST OF TABERNACLES for seven days unto the LORD. On the first day shall be an holy convocation: you shall do no servile work therein. Seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the EIGHTH DAY shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by FIRE unto the LORD: it is a SOLEMN assembly; and you shall do no servile work therein" (Lev. 23:34-36). Why is the profound and marvelous truth of this festival not taught in its proper chronological order by the prophets of Christendom? How is it even possible to avoid seeing the powerful and glorious consummation of God’s salvation in this Fall Harvest Festival? Why is the truth of this GREAT FEAST being hidden from the eyes of the world? What is it that they are trying to hide from us? God’s Word will show us.

JESUS TAUGHT THE PURPOSE OF THE FALL HARVEST

The eighth day of this Feast of Tabernacles was called "The Last Great Day of the Feast." Jesus Christ Himself came to the Feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem and spoke on the Last Great Day:

"In the last day, that GREAT DAY OF THE FEAST, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If ANY MAN thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of LIVING WATER" (John 7:37-38).

At what point in future prophecy, will Jesus Christ CUT OFF the invitation to all and any who are athirst to drink of His LIVING WATERS? Our Lord NEVER cuts off the invitation to drink of the living waters. These waters (a symbol for God’s SPIRIT) will be available until every creature in heaven and earth is saved:

"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the FOUNTAIN OF THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY" (Rev. 21:6).

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the WATER OF LIFE FREELY" (Rev. 22:17).

And this declaration is made just five verses before the END OF THE BIBLE!

But don’t be deceived, Jesus Christ IS the "tree of life" in the Garden, and NO ONE can partake of that tree of life except he first pass the through the "FLAMING SWORD" that points in all directions and guards the tree of life. Remember, "Our God is a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).

So Tabernacles celebrated the great Fall harvest, the largest harvest of the whole year. It was this great Fall harvest that would sustain Israel through the winter months. There were far more products to be harvested in the END of the year than in the Spring of the year. Therefore this same type must carry over into the New Testament.


more to come

[Laren]

So here is where we are. There were THREE great festivals in the yearly calendar of Israel:

"THREE TIMES in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which He shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread [which included Passover], and in the feast of weeks [firstfruits], and in the feast of tabernacles [the time of the great fall harvest]: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty" (Deut. 16:16).

First comes the wave sheaf, the very first of the firstfruits, on Passover, during the feast of unleavened bread. This represents CHRIST, the very first (wave sheaf) OF the firstfruit, our Passover sacrificed for us.

Second was the Feast of Weeks when the firstfruit of the land was harvested. This represents US, the FIRSTFRUIT to enter God’s Kingdom. James says WE are the firstfruit of God (James 1:18).

Third came the great Fall harvest, the Feast of Tabernacles, a much much larger gathering, where ALL THE FALL HARVEST was gathered in! What does this Feast picture? This was the time of true REJOICING FOR EVERYONE. Absolutely EVERYONE. No one was left out of this great and final festival of the year:

"And thou shalt rejoice IN THY FEAST [of Tabernacles, the fall harvest], YOU, and your SON, and your DAUGHTER, and your MANSERVANT, and your MAIDSERVANT, and the LEVITE, the STRANGER [GENTILES], and the FATHERLESS, and the WIDOW, that are within your gates" (Deut. 16:14).

NO ONE was EXCLUDED! EVERYONE was INCLUDED!

And so we see in the New Testament that these three festivals of ancient Israel are really TYPES in God’s master plan of salvation. Christ the FIRST of the firstfruit. Then believers, the FIRSTFRUITS. And then the great FALL HARVEST.

But wait a minute. We know that Christ was the First of the firstfruit to be resurrected to life. We also know that all the believing saints who are to reign with Christ at His coming are the rest of the firstfruits. So where then does the great fall harvest of souls come into God’s family? When have you ever been taught about the great fall harvest, which excludes no one but includes everyone? There is a reason why you haven’t heard the truth of these Scriptures in Christendom.

According to Christendom THERE IS NO GREAT FALL HARVEST OF SOULS at the end of the ages!

That’s right, they say there will be NO Fall Harvest in God’s Kingdom. Just how do they account for such a thing? Is God such an inept and unskilled Farmer that He has a total crop failure when Fall harvest time comes, or will He just BURN THE ENTIRE HARVEST in the eternal fires of some fabled hell?


......


THREE TIMES there was a great festival to God wherein, by the use of types, God showed mankind His plan of salvation. The PASSOVER, the FIRSTFRUITS, and the FALL HARVEST. These three festival types in the Old Testament were to have their fulfillment in future realizations of these types.

EVERY MAN SAVED IN HIS OWN ORDER

I Cor. 15:20, 23, 24 presents us with the type and fulfillment of the three harvest festivals:

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUITS OF [the rest of the firstfruits awaiting resurrection in His presence] them that slept ... But EVERY MAN [all mankind, the WHOLE human race] in his own ORDER: Christ the firstfruits..." (The Wave Sheaf of the very first of the firstfruits).

"Afterward they that are Christ’s [those who are now saved] at His coming [the rest of the firstfruits that are sleeping and those alive waiting]. (The Firstfruits, the Spring Harvest).

Then comes the END [The Fall Harvest, the Feast of Tabernacles]. "…and the feast of INGATHERING [of the Fall Harvest], which is in the END..." (Ex. 23:16). What did Jesus say would happen in "the end," at the "end of the Feast," "the last day," "the last great day of the feast?" "In the last day, that GREAT DAY OF THE FEAST, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If ANY MAN thirst, let him come unto Me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of LIVING WATER" (John 7:37-38).

THEN COMES THE END

I Cor. 15:24 says, "Then comes the END…" "The end" of what? Just what is it that "ends" in "the end?" Does the earth end? Does the universe end? Do we end? What ends in the end? "Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at His coming [Gk: His presence]. Then comes THE END..." (II Cor. 15:24). Let’s look at a few verses before we come to "the end" in verse 24:

Verse 20:

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept."

Comment: Contrary to popular teaching, there was no heavenly welcoming committee of men and women who became firstfruits BEFORE Christ became the FIRSTFRUIT. No, there were no saints welcoming Christ back to heaven. Christ taught:

"And NO MAN has ascended into heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13).

Jesus Christ was the FIRST. Ask your pastor if this verse really is true, that "NO MAN" has ascended into heaven. This would then mean that Lazarus and Abraham in the Rich man parable also were NOT IN HEAVEN as most teach that they were, wouldn’t it?

Among the very last few words that Christ uttered on this earth were these:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the END, the FIRST and the LAST" (Rev. 22:13).

So yes, Christ is the first of the firstfruits. He is the first of EVERYTHING, He is the very Creator; and He is the last, the end, the CONSUMMATION of God’s plan of universal salvation.

Ver. 21-22: "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For AS in Adam ALL die, EVEN SO in Christ shall ALL be made alive."

Comment: First I want to show you that the word "alive" in this verse is a word that is used with reference to imparting immortality, and not just mortal life. The Greek word is zoopoieo, and it means to give life beyond the grasp of any future death. Notice how it is used in Rom. 8:11, "But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead [Christ was raised to immortality, not back to a mortal life] dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken [zoopoieo] your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwells in you." So clearly God does not give "mortal" life to our "mortal" bodies, seeing that we already have mortal life. No, He imparts IMMORTALITY to us. And this is exactly what Paul tells us in I Cor. 15, "For this corruptible [body] must put on incorruption [spiritual], and this mortal [dying or dead body] must put on IMMORTALITY [Gk: DEATH-LESS-NESS]" (Verse 53). And to whom does Christ grant immortal "zoopoieo" life? Answer: "ALL." The very same "all" who die in Adam are the very same "all" who are given life IN CHRIST.

It is also noteworthy that it is "…IN Christ ALL…" and is not restricted to only, "…ALL IN CHRIST…" as many have tried to twist this verse to mean. They say it is only all those who are "in" Christ. But that is not what this verse says. It says "in Christ ALL." That is the order of words. This verse is not speaking of those just the "all believers" who are said to be "IN Christ." No, this verse is speaking about the very same "in Adam ALL" who die become the very same "in Christ ALL" who are made alive. And although this particular verse does not say that "all" are now "IN Christ," it does most definitely say that "in Christ," the "ALL" shall be shall be "made alive." "Made alive" does not prove they are "in" Christ or that they are "saved," only that they have been given immortal life. Then comes JUDGMENT. But don’t think that therefore there is no Scripture that says they will eventually "ALL" be "IN" Christ, because there is:

"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one ALL [‘things’ is not in original] IN Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even IN HIM" (Eph. 1:10).

Christ first raises ALL to immortal life. At a later date He gathers this same ALL into Himself. The "in Christ ALL" (I Cor. 15:22) then becomes the "ALL IN CHRIST" (Eph. 1:10). Every creature in heaven and earth will be ONE IN Christ! I hope you can believe that.

Ver. 23-24: "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at His coming. Then cometh the end…"



rest of article here

http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html


comes from a futuristic teachign, but i thought was helpful.



(underlining by me)

[Paige]

Laren,

I think what throws so many for a loop is the timing of ingathering (Tabernacles). I don't think we can be true to scripture in regard to timing if we try to s-t-r-e-t-c-h Tabernacles 2000 years and beyond.

This article shares some great insights. The 40 years between the Cross and Parousia must be taken into account though (I know you know this already).

Paige

[Barry]

Just a few thoughts:
The fulfillment of all things written not an easy topic to deal with.

We might say that this excludes some passages of scripture that show forth the idea of continuing affects.
This in a sense is where some of the "semantics" might arise.

With out types and figures continued fulfillment becomes impossible IMHO. So then how can scripture speak of anything ongoing?

IMHO as a continued affect of realized fulfillment. This would be the difference I would propose.

All benefits to humanity from the time of fulfillment have been because of perfection and not through perfection.
Example:
Human rights, Women's rights, abolition of slavery, and so on deal with the acceptance of equal value and worth.

Progress on a physiological level is through the acceptance of worth as opposed to search for it.

Progress on a social level is through the acceptance and so then realization of divine worth, divine oneness and divine possibility.

Such is then the realization of completeness as opposed to the search for it. What all this implies is not yet fully realized and may never be.
Thus you have perpetual efficacy. The legacy of the firstfruits which the "general harvest" did complete and so then in this context initialize.
Such was revelation based. Wherein such revelation was tied to types and figures. The completion of the revelation has itself an ongoing affect which is not the same as the outworking of the revelation itself. But does mirror some of the same effects as what was in the firstfruits. But from the position of a realization of completeness as opposed to a search for it or an initialization of it.

Thus if taken from a covenantal aspect Adam revealed a position of a search for completeness and Christ (and thus those who do believe in such a fulfilled revelation) outworks a revelation of completeness which may then enter into the awareness which would be similar to the transitional "conversion".

Now in such a position things continue to progress on a creative level. As such then we will continue to evolve creatively as then participants in ongoing creation.

I'm sure that this is as clear as mud. :)
JMO
Barry

[Paige]

Barry,

I still like my "weedless harvest" LOL!

Paige

[Laren]

I"m still trying to get a handle on "types and figures".

Were these "types and figures" given to man from God? In other words, when God went into covenant agreement, they were his "conditions"??


The reason I ask this, is some would say "types and figures" are still present. Look around, water baptism, communion, rituals in churches, tithing, and even many practicing jews, synagogues, Christians who follow the passover, feasts etc.


??

[Paige]

Laren,

As far as that is concerned...

What Jews are practicing today is very far removed from authenticity. Yes, there are "brands" of Christianity that would try to bind as much of their practice to the law, and the OC. However, there are many more that are coming out of that mindset, and recognizing that it has no validity. I do think what you are pointing out is that there is still a perception issue found (as Barry would say) between the ears.

I think we can see a progression of types being put in place as the biblical record proceeded toward fulfillment. So, I think we also see a progression of it falling away as we move further from the time of fulfillment.

Paige

[Willie McCoy]

Jesus talked of a harvest at the end of the dispensation that seemed to be a one time event. Would that be different than the harvest than this one? If so when did it happen?
Peace willie

[Barry]

I"m still trying to get a handle on "types and figures".

Were these "types and figures" given to man from God? In other words, when God went into covenant agreement, they were his "conditions"??


The reason I ask this, is some would say "types and figures" are still present. Look around, water baptism, communion, rituals in churches, tithing, and even many practicing jews, synagogues, Christians who follow the passover, feasts etc.


??

A couple of my own thoughts on this Laren. [With some wild ideas thrown in LOL!]

Types and figures were in lieu of a fulfilled revelation.

Hbr 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, while the first tabernacle is yet standing;

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Satan has authority (position) only within the precedence of types and figures. The authority (or position) of the self defined self is types and figures dependent. Once types and figures are historically removed realization of completion becomes the evolutionary driving force.

IMO in framing the whole of the matter in "revelation" we nullify any attempt to relive or re-do what has been done as that related to a search for completion and revealing of Identity or Image. Realization and development in and through that conscious realization then becomes IMHO the key.

This is what we have seen over the last almost 2000 years and are seeing today.
Advances that promote the growth of a comprehensive collective social consciousness have been
Printing press (akin to the giving of the law)
Internet (akin to Abraham, all the nations blessed)
Universal translation [still coming] (Babel)
The ability to actually feel what others feel. [sometime in the future] (Knowledge of good and evil fulfilled on an outworking social level IE do no harm look for the benefit.).

Barry

[davo]

Wow I just got around to reading this thread – what a great bunch of thoughts shared.


Jesus talked of a harvest at the end of the dispensation that seemed to be a one time event. Would that be different than the harvest than this one? If so when did it happen?
Peace willieG'day Willie… "the harvest" per se at the "end of the age" was the full redemption of Israel, as promised in the OT – sometimes described in terms of "resurrection". Jesus being THE first-fruit was the first to rise up out of Israel's old covenant body, his apostles/disciples being "the first-fruit" saints. Thus there was a resurrection already taking place in that transitional period AD30-70 culminating in THE resurrection at the "last day" etc.

Those coming to faith in Christ were His 'Body' ministering redemption to Israel, a redemption they as believers were already embarking on yet only in the Parousia would it be complete. The ministration of the first-fruit saints cannot be overlooked as it so often is without leaving the story out of context. I think this verse says it pretty well:

2Cor 1:20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us.

Paul's "through us" speaks loud and clear IMO of the integral part the first-fruit saints played in the outworking to fullness in that age the fullness of Christ's victory over sin at Calvary for Israel – a victory that extended to the Gentiles through Gentile inclusion into the first-fruits ministration.

[Laren]

Was the "full redemption of Israel" that davo talks about above; the same as the "tares". Seeems like a harvest is of the same crop?

Who were the tares??

thanks

Laren

[Me Again]

tares were unbelieving apostate Israel.

HOWEVER, I believe we have to keep in mind that parables spoke of pre-parousia realities. Oftentimes in scripture we see Israel being condemned, and yet God promises a remnant, and then saves the whole nation. All the nation, though dry bones, were resurrected together. As a collective, Israel was saved, some branches being burned up in the lake of fire, but as the scripture says, in Israel there was only one foundation laid (Jesus Christ), and some built with wood, hay and straw (unbelievers). Their works were burned up, but their souls were saved through that fire (destruction of Jerusalem, lake of fire, God's consuming fire, fire from heaven, breath of his mouth).

ed

[Laren]

tares were unbelieving apostate Israel.

HOWEVER, I believe we have to keep in mind that parables spoke of pre-parousia realities. Oftentimes in scripture we see Israel being condemned, and yet God promises a remnant, and then saves the whole nation. All the nation, though dry bones, were resurrected together. As a collective, Israel was saved, some branches being burned up in the lake of fire, but as the scripture says, in Israel there was only one foundation laid (Jesus Christ), and some built with wood, hay and straw (unbelievers). Their works were burned up, but their souls were saved through that fire (destruction of Jerusalem, lake of fire, God's consuming fire, fire from heaven, breath of his mouth).

ed


Hi Ed, when you say their souls were saved through fire.

What do you mean by their soul??

what is the soul, in reference to your quote??



and what is the difference between soul and spirit.


1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


is the "himself" the same as "spirit"??

[Me Again]

Laren,
truthfully, I try not to get too far into the dissecting of words. I have no background in Greek, Hebrew, or first century Jewish culture. Much of what Jesus said was peculiar to that culture, and spoke to their circumstances. If he came today, he might say that he is "the french fry of life," or "the salad of life." Bread was their main staple, and our society today doesn't eat bread in the same way...that's why all the confusion about Eucharist.

I'll take a shot though, but you may get a better answer from others here: when the bible says that the word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword, able to divide soul from spirit, I think it is talking about what Barry talks about here. The soul has to do with ego/personhood/old order standing, whereas spirit has to do with new order standing. God's word, Jesus, was able to divide that which was passing away (soul) from that which was becoming new (spirit).

However, we know that when a man "lost his life for (Jesus') sake" he gained his soul. His identity/personhood was saved and not destroyed in the fires of the judgment. Those who rejected Christ saw their personhood lost in some sort of way (Barry describes it but frankly I still have no idea what the hell he is talking about), but yet that identity as one of God's people was preserved (saved).

I will add this caveat, Barry has always maintained, and I guess it makes sense based on your questions, that unbelievers in the judgment were "annihilated," but not in the "no-longer-exists" way that Conditional Mortality adherents claim, but in an "being-emptied-of-one's-identity" way. Kind of like (at least the way I see it), those who believed were elevated to upper class status, while unbelievers went to heaven to live in public housing projects (is this kind of like the fundies "mansion vs. shack" view?).

I don't know. I honestly have been trying to stay away from these type questions (but they are like a magnet drawing me in....). I really want to focus on God's love for us, and how we should live in his kingdom as priests to the greater humanity.

Davo might be more helpful. Barry too, if you can understand what he is talking about. :)

ed

[Amie]

Ed,

If you ask me, you said that beautifully. I think that studies like this can clarify some things about the love of God. Like, understanding the purpose of "first fruits" to begin with.


Everyone too,

I think this subject would make for an important article, and am very interested in this thread. Davo's stuff on the "elect" has been invaluable imo and this is definitely related.

I think that the first time an offering of acceptance is made in the bible story, is in the story of Cain and Abel. This, to me, illuminates that sacrifice was sourced at mankind -- a need within humanity for God's acceptance. It is interesting that it isn't until Seth though, that the name of God begins to be called upon. Perhaps a glimmer of faith in love begins to emerge at that time.

Humanity did not have the need for acceptance, in the story at least, before the forbidden fruit. Before that, it seems that we were gleefully ignorant. We didn't even know that we were naked and all exposed to God and the world. As soon as we became aware, we felt ashamed and were afraid -- the belief that we were unacceptable began.

Of course, I think that it's Doug (?) who has suggested that the seeds of that were demonstrated even as the fruit was being considered...

"..your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as God, knowing good and evil."

"..the tree was desirable to make one wise."

Definitely at the "end of days" the "veil was lifted". The binding of the serpent is tied directly to his ability to deceive and even after he is loosed one last time, he is cast down forever.

Eve came into transgression in that she was fully educated as to what sin was, and grace. Adam, already in transgression, was a "man of sin" and his days, during the transition, were numbered.

I do see that the deception is tied to the need for offering -- so the unveiling must have been when it was done away.

"First fruits" could probably be listed under the "types and figures" thread. In parenthesis below is the mechanical/oober literal translation of the original hebrew wording.

In Genesis 1, adam (mankind) was created (fatted) in the image (shadow) and likeness (similitude) of "us" (powers).

In my view, Genesis 1 is not wholly symbolic, it is the record of the creation of God's house - to which is he limited? None imo. God made a house in Israel - not just the temple, but the people therein. He was not limited to that. God created the universe to house himself. He was not limited to that.

The "shadow" can be seen in a few ways and we can look to the most obvious to understand the symbols. The "shadow" is in a shape - it creates an outline. That is where the translators get the word "image". There is more than one way to cast an image - whether as a statue over the peoples, or yourself. We can know that in the beginning, humanity was created in God's care - we see the evidence of his onlooking in the shadow that he cast.

Already given was a single day of "echad" (unity/unified) in which God said "Let there be light". Within that day, in narrative sequence, lights were placed in the sky. Humanity therefore did not come into a world utterly filled with darkness. Darkness was for the "night", and "in the morning" (the "eighth day"), would be "The Day of the Lord" -- but those connections are for another time, lol!

We are able though, to walk out of our homes when it is night and understand darkness. Probably not as well as when the bible was written - when there were no lights from cities and such.

Even deeper dark than that, is how the Hebrew mind saw biological death. "Sheol" (translated grave) literally means "unanswerable" as they could not have known what awaits a person upon burial or "giving up the soul". Dirt would be cast over their heads, or they will have been covered by a stone ossuary (burial box) or the like. The deepest recesses of the grave were seen by the Romans as "Tartarus". Because of the nature of death, it was often used metaphorically to communicate thoughts as in:


Psa 5:9 For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is engulfing ruin; their throat is an open grave; they flatter with their tongue.

To the King of Babylon:


Isa 14:11 Your majesty is lowered into Sheol; the noise of your harps. The maggot is spread under you; yea, the worms cover you.
Isa 14:12 Oh shining star, son of the morning, how you have fallen from the heavens! You weakening the nations, you are cut down to the ground.


Psa 88:3 For my soul is full with evils, and my life touches Sheol.
Psa 88:4 I am counted with those who go down to the Pit; I have been like a feeble man,
Psa 88:5 free among the dead, as pierced ones lying in the grave, whom You remember no more; yea by Your hand they are cut off.
Psa 88:6 You have laid me in the lowest pit, in dark places, in the deeps.
Psa 88:7 Your fury has lain hard upon me, and You afflict me with all Your waves. Selah.
Psa 88:8 You have taken ones knowing me away from me; You have made me a hateful thing to them; I am shut up, I will not go out.
Psa 88:9 My eye mourns because of affliction; O Jehovah, I have called on You every day; I have spread out my hands to You.
Psa 88:10 For will You do wonders for those dying? Or shall the departed spirits rise and thank You? Selah.
Psa 88:11 Shall Your mercy be declared in the grave, Your faithfulness amidst ruin?
Psa 88:12 Shall Your wonders be known in the dark, and Your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

Ezekiel 37 has Israel as "dry bones". Consider this if you will:


Col 2:16 Then do not let anyone judge you in eating, or in drinking, or in part of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths,
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of coming things, but the body is of Christ.

and


Heb 8:4 For if indeed He were on earth, He would not even be a priest, there being those priests offering gifts according to the Law,
Heb 8:5 who serve the pattern of and shadow of heavenly things, even as Moses was divinely warned, being about to make the tabernacle: For He says, "See that you make all things according to the pattern being shown to you in the mount." Exodus 25:40

and


Heb 10:1 For the Law had a shadow of the coming good things, not the image itself of those things. Appearing year by year with the same sacrifices, which they offer continually, they never are able to perfect the ones drawing near.

The law "had a shadow", the law itself was not sin ("God forbid!").


Pro 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp, and the law a light; and reproofs of instruction are a way of life,


Isa 51:4 Hear Me, My people; yea, give ear to Me, My nation. For a law shall go out from Me, and My justice I will make rest as light to peoples.

The law was bondage to sin and it was the knowledge of sin. We're taken back full circle to an awareness of nakedness. The awareness in and of itself was not sin, but it was what created a bondage to sin -- and the belief in a need for offering, lest we die.. for the "wages of sin is death". That death, is the shadow that the law had.


Psa 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil; for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.

Who was bound to sin and death via the law? (Parenthesis mine below)


Rom 11:25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be wise within yourselves, that hardness in part (portion) has happened to Israel until the fullness of the nations comes in;

Israel as a whole had been hardened and in darkness. They were a valley of dry bones, awaiting a resurrection. That resurrection was promised to Israel and as far as I know, it was only promised to them.


Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved, even as it has been written, "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
Rom 11:27 And this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins." Isa. 59:20, 21

Of course, in Romans 11, Gentiles were being grafted into that fatness and those Gentiles, along with those of Israel (by faith) who were Israel (by blood) --


Rom 9:6 Not, however, that God's Word has failed. For not all those of Israel are Israel,

This in no way discounts the promise (covenant) of God to all Israel as Paul brought to light in Romans 11. The falling away of apostate Israel meant the grafting in of the Gentiles. Together they comprised the body of Christ, the church, the bride, or the first fruits.


1Co 12:27 And you are Christ's body, and members in part.


Eph 3:6 for the nations to be joint-heirs, and a joint-body and joint-sharers of His promise in Christ through the gospel,


Col 1:24 who now rejoice in my sufferings on your behalf and fill up in my flesh the things lacking of the afflictions of Christ on behalf of His body, which is the assembly,

These were the corporate body of Christ and who the modern churches view themselves to be today.

To pause just for a sec -- even if one sees themselves in the transition period, I do not see how they escape seeing a universal redemption in the future. Regardless of your place in time in the story, that is always how the story ends. End pause :D.

What they would go through would be very hard. They went through just what Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24. Some probably felt exhausted and moments of hopelessness.


2Ti 2:3 Then you suffer hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2Ti 2:4 No one serving as a soldier entangles himself with the affairs of this life, so that he might please the one having enlisted him.
2Ti 2:5 And also if anyone competes, he is not crowned unless he competes lawfully.
2Ti 2:6 It is right for the laboring farmer to partake first of the fruits.

Who was the "laboring farmer"? ..anyway:

The "firstfruit" (singular) that they were being bundled with, or grafted into, was Jesus himself:


Rom 11:16 Now if the firstfruit is holy, so also the lump. And if the root is holy, so also the branches.

They did become buried and risen again in Jesus though, and their identity was inseparable from his own:


Rom 16:5 And greet the assembly at their house, and my beloved Epenetus, who is a firstfruit of Achaia for Christ.

Keep in mind that the "body of Christ" is also "the assembly":



1Co 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead; He became the firstfruit of those having fallen asleep.
1Co 15:21 For since death is through man, also through a Man is a resurrection of the dead;
1Co 15:22 for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruit; afterward those of Christ at His coming.

If you read on you will see that there is "heavenly man", which bears the image of the heavenly, and "earthly man", which bears the image of the earthly. "Earthly", mind you, has it's own connotations and people even in the transition were able to bear the image of the heavenly and live spiritually. "Flesh" was a way of thinking:


Rom 8:5 For the ones that are according to flesh mind the things of the flesh. And the ones according to Spirit mind the things of the Spirit.


Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards God; for it is not being subjected to the Law of God, for neither can it be.

Those are just a couple of examples. I submit that we unable to think "in the flesh" as fully as those historically. It takes work to put ourselves in their shoes at times because of that.

As was with Cain and Abel, the purpose of the first fruits remained unchanged:


Mic 6:7 Will Jehovah be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of torrents of oil? Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

Other references to the early offering:


Lev 23:40 And you shall take to yourselves on the first day the fruit of majestic trees, palm branches, and boughs of oak trees, and willows of the valley, and shall rejoice before Jehovah your God seven days.


Deu 26:2 then you shall take of the first of all the fruit of the ground which you shall bring in from your land which Jehovah your God is giving to you, and shall put it in a basket, and shall go to the place which Jehovah your God shall choose to cause His name to dwell there.


Exo 23:16 Also the Feast of Harvest, the first fruits of your labor, of what you sow in the field. Also the Feast of Ingathering, at the end of the year, at your gathering your work from the field.

The word in my experience can be searched as: "first fruits", "firstfruit", "first fruit" and there are a number of other passages for you to read through if you want. It is an offering though, an offering on behalf of the entire harvest.


Rom 2:19 and persuading yourself to be a guide of blind ones, a light to those in darkness,

They were not meant to be a light to be covered.


Luk 8:16 But no one lighting a lamp covers it with a vessel, or puts it underneath a couch, but sets it on a lampstand, that those coming in may see the light.

They were to bring glory upon all through magnifying the light of Jesus. Jesus in them, was a light to the world and their body, was his.


Luk 11:34 The lamp of the body is the eye. Then when your eye is sound, also all your body is light. But when it is evil, also your body is dark.

The "eye" is what we see the world with. It is again, a way of thinking. Gosh, this is long! Any thoughts?

Amie

[Jotham]

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

...(Barry describes it but frankly I still have no idea what the hell he is talking about)...Ed you made my laugh meter go off the scale!!

I luv you Barry, you stretch my mental capacity waaaay beyond what i usually need to get through a typical day.

[stsak]

So much for me to learn and still understand. I so appreciate all the time you guys take to explain some of this stuff.
You know, coming out of an Evangelical background, I decided today, not once in 45 years had I ever heard the words, First fruit, first death, second death, first Adam, Second Adam, till I came here.
I wish there was a cheat sheet somewhere on this forum that kind of explained some of that lingo.
I know those kinds of words in the beginning use to scare me and totally think what was being said here was nuts:biglaugha: (and I mean that with love!)
But if I had a list of some of those words and maybe others coming here from more fundamental backgrounds, things would make more sense in leaving the old and going forward.
Thanks so much
Nancy

I am new to this brand of fulfilled prophecy and agree Nancy.