Barry
06-16-2008, 09:49 AM
Extracts from some yet unpublished writings that relate to the topic of "we cannot have their salvation". That being we cannot duplicate what is done.
When Peter says;
"but the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"... he is speaking of what is about to be snatched away from those who trusted in the law. Those who trusted in self righteousness, and desired the old age to remain forever would lose everything that they thought was precious. They were about to lose everything they thought gave them value and worth. They were about to lose their self defined "ego".
God however, does not dwell in temples made with hands and so he has given us the history of an unfolding revelation from types, figures, and shadows, to the very substance of relationship.
This is a key factor in our understanding. There is an implied "bondage" while the types and figures of things to come were still standing. The fulfillment and thus removal of the types and figures changed the very "form" of things on a cosmological scale.
So then, covenant eschatology illuminates the transition between types, figures, and shadows, and what was to be permanent in a permanent new age.
Even Adam was a figure of him (the Christ) to come. Adam did not become a figure of Christ through the so called fall. Rather he lived out this "figure" context as one "from the dust" of the earth.
With this in mind it becomes clear that whatever "restoration" was to take place, it would be a "restoration" of biblical proportions, meaning "many fold".
We have much more through the last Adam (Christ) than was lost in the first Adam in the Garden of Eden. What the "figure of him to come" had in the garden of Eden is not equivalent to what was attained through Christ. Adam was a man of the old cosmos. Adam was a man that knew not his divine identity. Nor would such be revealed to him in his self defined identity.
Even from within the garden of Eden we see things that would be taken away in the end of the age. No remaining "serpent" or "devil" and no evidence of a forbidden tree, shows a different kind of garden situation that we see in the fulfilling of the old as the New Jerusalem is coming down from heaven and "all things are being made new" [Rev. 21:5 is the present active indicative so then "I am making everything new"]. It becomes clear that God had a plan from the very beginning that would give us more than what could be lost in the first place.
So then the "last days" were not just the last days of the law as given through Moses, but the last days of types and figures from and including Adam.
However, what is often overlooked in the study of covenant eschatology is the extent to which audience relevance comes into play.
It is the self defined "ego life", the "ego identity", that is being addressed in much of the old testament, and in much of the new testament when referring to the "in Adam" context of life.
The Adamic life was a life of an independently, humanly defined "ego identity" that stood in the precedence of types and figures. Without a higher reference, man would formulate his identity through conclusions drawn from his surroundings.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope
The disregard of the directive to not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was instrumental in concluding the self defined ego.
We may think that Adam defines humanity or defines what it is to be human. And in this approach we may think that God was somewhat ashamed in having created humans. This however was never the point. The problem is not being "human" the problem was self defining identity.
What is often being addressed in scripture is the "ego" precedence of mankind within the framework of the old economy that stood in types and figures.
Man cannot accurately define himself for himself. For what then happens is people try to establish their own "worth". So then people look around themselves and make interpretations from "things which are seen".
In this limited scope and limited view they attempt to define themselves by and through their surroundings.
Now while it is very true that this mentality still prevails, we do not do it from "things which are seen", as types and figures of the things that were to come. Those special "things which are seen" in the old age, were dissolved in the end of the age.
The intent of Scripture was not to create a physical verses spiritual dichotomy. But rather the types and figures were representing and validating the "mentality" or "mindset" of a certain type of thinking. Not as a spiritual verses physical dichotomy but rather as being "visually" bound to one dimension of life only. Forming identity through that one dimension. In general terms, being referred to as "in the flesh", and "according to the flesh" as a "mind set".
Being in that identity they did "love the world". They loved that world that was passing away.
The removal of the types and figures did not cause the stones of the temple to de-molecularize but rather these stones were thrown down.
Similar in some ways to saying, "Man shall not live by bread alone".
A physical verses spiritual dichotomy is all to often a conclusion which is in the opinion of this author, mistakenly drawn from scripture.
The new age does not nullify or eradicate the physical or material. Rather it places it or incorporates it into a larger spiritual context wherein one's own limits within the temporal physical sphere is inconsequential to the larger spiritual sphere of relationship. The spiritual is able to encompass the material. What it did not encompass was the "types and figures" that presided over the dominion of one dimensional mind set.
So then the types and figures that had precedence prior to the fulfillment of all things written, served as a sort of scaffolding for the "self defined ego".
And in this context, scripture consistency holds to a definitive time restraint as relates to the old cosmos, and so a definitive time restraint to the dominion of the "self defined ego". The passing away of the types and figures is inseparable from the passing away of the authorization of the self conceived identity.
2Cr 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present with you.
2Cr 4:15 For all things [are] for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
2Cr 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day.
2Cr 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding [and] eternal weight of glory;
2Cr 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal.
The "outward man" that was perishing was none other than the old creature framed in the old covenant types and figures of things to come.
2Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
So then Paul was seeing himself as still attached in part to the old cosmos mode of relationship, while the tabernacle "made with hands", was still standing (see Heb. 9:8).
The (first) tabernacle being that which was "made with hands". [Note: The physicality of the human body is not the context here. "Physically" the human body is not made with human hands. Rather the Bible is clear that "God formed" in "the womb".]
Paul saw the passing away of this tabernacle as the ending of that identity.
The "temple" construction parallelled and depicted the dominion, of the "ego" construct. The temple made with hands materialized and the ego construct of the old economy. It depicted the corporate body of the "old man". And so the body of Christ becomes the corporate body of the new man. The body of Christ in the New Testament scriptures is to be seen as a transitional body from old to new.
Paul was seeing an end to the "self defined ego" as that which was held up in types and figures of things to come. Paul was looking to a time when that "cosmos" would be no more. So Paul walked by faith and not by the "form" of the old cosmos.
2Cr 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) {"form" or "appearance", see the Greek. Used in connection with his thoughts in 5:12.}
2Cr 5:8 We are confident, , and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2Cr 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. {IE Labor as a Jew from a heritage perspective of the old body or labor as a Gentile without that heritage perspective.}
2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
2Cr 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
2Cr 5:12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to [answer] them which glory in appearance, and [U]not in heart.
The time restraint is that of the end of the age which is when they did appear before the judgment seat of Christ. This time restraint is both constant and consistent. Never is it given as a ongoing post mortem judgment, but rather an end of age judgment.
Those who by faith were preparing for the new cosmos were putting off the old cosmos mode of "commending" ones self through appearance, which was framed in types and figures.
There is also the common "full-preterist" version of biblical futurism which I call "biblical post mortem futurism" or "partial preterist post mortem idealism". In this the problem only really gets fixed when one dies and so the human nature is shed.
One can repent and be saved and go to heaven as long as one does it before they die. Before the human nature is shed.
In such a scenario, at each one's passing from this life, judgment takes place "according to each mans works". This creating of course the obvious problem of those who lived through from the old age to the new, needing to be judged [I]twice according to their works. Once in the end of the age as promised and foretold, and then again when they died.
After all if we are to be judged according to our works when we die then so to, those who lived through from old to new must give a new accounting for their "works" from the time of the end of the age to the time of their end in this sphere of existence. Not only a mess, but impossible to understand. More than a stretch, as it is completely incompatible with the end of the age teachings in scripture.
You may also notice the grave problem that this creates for those who believe in post mortem eternal punishment.
In such a scenario, those who were disobedient until the end of the age and still lived on for a time were then already judged unworthy in the end of the age prior to their post mortem.
They were then already in the state of eternal punishment from the end of the age having been judged "according to their works". For the time of judgment according to their works was the end of the age not necessarily one of post mortem.
But such a scenario of eternal punishment cannot be extrapolated toward any subsequent generation. Unless each generation has an end of the age. And then no one of either the saved or the condemned can repent or fall short or make any changes to their position of eternal security from the point of the end of the age to their post mortem.
But if we try and go forward with this type scenario trying to combine both end of age judgement and ongoing judgment we might then conclude that such is then the very nature of the new age. And in concluding that, since the end of the old age, one is already in eternal punishment until one believes.
This however would mean that the unbelieving that live through, had a second chance from the end of the age to the point in which they died. For this would then be the nature of eternal punishment since end of the age took place. For whatever is applicable for us in this life was also applicable to they who lived through.
And herein is one of the many insurmountable problems with both the theories of eternal conscious punishment and annihilation. Making sense of both a definitive judgment at the end of the age where many lived through, and trying to make such applicable in a continuing post mortem judgment.
The problem is plain and simple. Not everyone died in the end of the age! We have both believers and non believers living through.
Whatever is the nature of our judgment when we die was the nature of their judgment when they died. As such then, it is then no longer a preterist belief. For the scriptural thrust of the end of the age would then be seen as a post mortem application instead of a end of age application. Concluding that the scriptural, foretold end of age judgment "according to every one's works", is still an ongoing postmortem judgment, makes it impossible to conclude anything about the historical "fulfillment of all things written". The two become completely incompatible.
The problem with such views is of course that scripture is very clear in making the end of the age the time in which everyone was judged according to their works. This cannot be overstressed.
When Peter says;
"but the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"... he is speaking of what is about to be snatched away from those who trusted in the law. Those who trusted in self righteousness, and desired the old age to remain forever would lose everything that they thought was precious. They were about to lose everything they thought gave them value and worth. They were about to lose their self defined "ego".
God however, does not dwell in temples made with hands and so he has given us the history of an unfolding revelation from types, figures, and shadows, to the very substance of relationship.
This is a key factor in our understanding. There is an implied "bondage" while the types and figures of things to come were still standing. The fulfillment and thus removal of the types and figures changed the very "form" of things on a cosmological scale.
So then, covenant eschatology illuminates the transition between types, figures, and shadows, and what was to be permanent in a permanent new age.
Even Adam was a figure of him (the Christ) to come. Adam did not become a figure of Christ through the so called fall. Rather he lived out this "figure" context as one "from the dust" of the earth.
With this in mind it becomes clear that whatever "restoration" was to take place, it would be a "restoration" of biblical proportions, meaning "many fold".
We have much more through the last Adam (Christ) than was lost in the first Adam in the Garden of Eden. What the "figure of him to come" had in the garden of Eden is not equivalent to what was attained through Christ. Adam was a man of the old cosmos. Adam was a man that knew not his divine identity. Nor would such be revealed to him in his self defined identity.
Even from within the garden of Eden we see things that would be taken away in the end of the age. No remaining "serpent" or "devil" and no evidence of a forbidden tree, shows a different kind of garden situation that we see in the fulfilling of the old as the New Jerusalem is coming down from heaven and "all things are being made new" [Rev. 21:5 is the present active indicative so then "I am making everything new"]. It becomes clear that God had a plan from the very beginning that would give us more than what could be lost in the first place.
So then the "last days" were not just the last days of the law as given through Moses, but the last days of types and figures from and including Adam.
However, what is often overlooked in the study of covenant eschatology is the extent to which audience relevance comes into play.
It is the self defined "ego life", the "ego identity", that is being addressed in much of the old testament, and in much of the new testament when referring to the "in Adam" context of life.
The Adamic life was a life of an independently, humanly defined "ego identity" that stood in the precedence of types and figures. Without a higher reference, man would formulate his identity through conclusions drawn from his surroundings.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope
The disregard of the directive to not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was instrumental in concluding the self defined ego.
We may think that Adam defines humanity or defines what it is to be human. And in this approach we may think that God was somewhat ashamed in having created humans. This however was never the point. The problem is not being "human" the problem was self defining identity.
What is often being addressed in scripture is the "ego" precedence of mankind within the framework of the old economy that stood in types and figures.
Man cannot accurately define himself for himself. For what then happens is people try to establish their own "worth". So then people look around themselves and make interpretations from "things which are seen".
In this limited scope and limited view they attempt to define themselves by and through their surroundings.
Now while it is very true that this mentality still prevails, we do not do it from "things which are seen", as types and figures of the things that were to come. Those special "things which are seen" in the old age, were dissolved in the end of the age.
The intent of Scripture was not to create a physical verses spiritual dichotomy. But rather the types and figures were representing and validating the "mentality" or "mindset" of a certain type of thinking. Not as a spiritual verses physical dichotomy but rather as being "visually" bound to one dimension of life only. Forming identity through that one dimension. In general terms, being referred to as "in the flesh", and "according to the flesh" as a "mind set".
Being in that identity they did "love the world". They loved that world that was passing away.
The removal of the types and figures did not cause the stones of the temple to de-molecularize but rather these stones were thrown down.
Similar in some ways to saying, "Man shall not live by bread alone".
A physical verses spiritual dichotomy is all to often a conclusion which is in the opinion of this author, mistakenly drawn from scripture.
The new age does not nullify or eradicate the physical or material. Rather it places it or incorporates it into a larger spiritual context wherein one's own limits within the temporal physical sphere is inconsequential to the larger spiritual sphere of relationship. The spiritual is able to encompass the material. What it did not encompass was the "types and figures" that presided over the dominion of one dimensional mind set.
So then the types and figures that had precedence prior to the fulfillment of all things written, served as a sort of scaffolding for the "self defined ego".
And in this context, scripture consistency holds to a definitive time restraint as relates to the old cosmos, and so a definitive time restraint to the dominion of the "self defined ego". The passing away of the types and figures is inseparable from the passing away of the authorization of the self conceived identity.
2Cr 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present with you.
2Cr 4:15 For all things [are] for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
2Cr 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day.
2Cr 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding [and] eternal weight of glory;
2Cr 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal.
The "outward man" that was perishing was none other than the old creature framed in the old covenant types and figures of things to come.
2Cr 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
So then Paul was seeing himself as still attached in part to the old cosmos mode of relationship, while the tabernacle "made with hands", was still standing (see Heb. 9:8).
The (first) tabernacle being that which was "made with hands". [Note: The physicality of the human body is not the context here. "Physically" the human body is not made with human hands. Rather the Bible is clear that "God formed" in "the womb".]
Paul saw the passing away of this tabernacle as the ending of that identity.
The "temple" construction parallelled and depicted the dominion, of the "ego" construct. The temple made with hands materialized and the ego construct of the old economy. It depicted the corporate body of the "old man". And so the body of Christ becomes the corporate body of the new man. The body of Christ in the New Testament scriptures is to be seen as a transitional body from old to new.
Paul was seeing an end to the "self defined ego" as that which was held up in types and figures of things to come. Paul was looking to a time when that "cosmos" would be no more. So Paul walked by faith and not by the "form" of the old cosmos.
2Cr 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) {"form" or "appearance", see the Greek. Used in connection with his thoughts in 5:12.}
2Cr 5:8 We are confident, , and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2Cr 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. {IE Labor as a Jew from a heritage perspective of the old body or labor as a Gentile without that heritage perspective.}
2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
2Cr 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
2Cr 5:12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to [answer] them which glory in appearance, and [U]not in heart.
The time restraint is that of the end of the age which is when they did appear before the judgment seat of Christ. This time restraint is both constant and consistent. Never is it given as a ongoing post mortem judgment, but rather an end of age judgment.
Those who by faith were preparing for the new cosmos were putting off the old cosmos mode of "commending" ones self through appearance, which was framed in types and figures.
There is also the common "full-preterist" version of biblical futurism which I call "biblical post mortem futurism" or "partial preterist post mortem idealism". In this the problem only really gets fixed when one dies and so the human nature is shed.
One can repent and be saved and go to heaven as long as one does it before they die. Before the human nature is shed.
In such a scenario, at each one's passing from this life, judgment takes place "according to each mans works". This creating of course the obvious problem of those who lived through from the old age to the new, needing to be judged [I]twice according to their works. Once in the end of the age as promised and foretold, and then again when they died.
After all if we are to be judged according to our works when we die then so to, those who lived through from old to new must give a new accounting for their "works" from the time of the end of the age to the time of their end in this sphere of existence. Not only a mess, but impossible to understand. More than a stretch, as it is completely incompatible with the end of the age teachings in scripture.
You may also notice the grave problem that this creates for those who believe in post mortem eternal punishment.
In such a scenario, those who were disobedient until the end of the age and still lived on for a time were then already judged unworthy in the end of the age prior to their post mortem.
They were then already in the state of eternal punishment from the end of the age having been judged "according to their works". For the time of judgment according to their works was the end of the age not necessarily one of post mortem.
But such a scenario of eternal punishment cannot be extrapolated toward any subsequent generation. Unless each generation has an end of the age. And then no one of either the saved or the condemned can repent or fall short or make any changes to their position of eternal security from the point of the end of the age to their post mortem.
But if we try and go forward with this type scenario trying to combine both end of age judgement and ongoing judgment we might then conclude that such is then the very nature of the new age. And in concluding that, since the end of the old age, one is already in eternal punishment until one believes.
This however would mean that the unbelieving that live through, had a second chance from the end of the age to the point in which they died. For this would then be the nature of eternal punishment since end of the age took place. For whatever is applicable for us in this life was also applicable to they who lived through.
And herein is one of the many insurmountable problems with both the theories of eternal conscious punishment and annihilation. Making sense of both a definitive judgment at the end of the age where many lived through, and trying to make such applicable in a continuing post mortem judgment.
The problem is plain and simple. Not everyone died in the end of the age! We have both believers and non believers living through.
Whatever is the nature of our judgment when we die was the nature of their judgment when they died. As such then, it is then no longer a preterist belief. For the scriptural thrust of the end of the age would then be seen as a post mortem application instead of a end of age application. Concluding that the scriptural, foretold end of age judgment "according to every one's works", is still an ongoing postmortem judgment, makes it impossible to conclude anything about the historical "fulfillment of all things written". The two become completely incompatible.
The problem with such views is of course that scripture is very clear in making the end of the age the time in which everyone was judged according to their works. This cannot be overstressed.