The Face of God

[Infinite Grace]

Genesis 33:9-11, "9 But Esau said, "I have enough, my brother; keep what you have." 10 Jacob said, "No, please, if I have gained your favor, accept my gift. To see your face is for me like seeing the face of God, now that you have been so friendly to me. 11 Please accept this gift which I have brought for you; God has been kind to me and given me everything I need." Jacob kept on urging him until he accepted."

In this account we see where Jacob cries out to his brother declaring that Esau's face was to Jacob "the face of God." What was going on here? We are often told by our Calvinist brothers that God hated Esau, why would Jacob declare Esau's face to be like the face of God? Indeed, scripture indicates that God hated Esau, but that is for another discussion. The main point that I want to make here is that God has called us all to be to those around us, "the face of God."

Jesus is the prime example to us of being the face of God to humanity. We are told by Jesus himself that "if you see me, you see the Father." In other words, you didn't have to wonder what God looked like, you had that answer in Jesus. But, some have taken this to mean that Jesus was not to be portrayed, for that would be a violation of the second commandment. But we know that the Church long ago decided that since Jesus was "the express image (icon) of the Father" then his likeness could be portrayed, in fact should be portrayed, as a testimony of Christ's humanity.

But seeing the Father in Jesus has nothing to do with his physical likeness. It is/was his spiritual likeness that mattered. In Jesus, we saw God's grace, mercy, love, forgiveness, gentleness, etc. Yes, we saw God's anger, spoken of often in the Psalms, but that anger was always tempered in a spirit of love. Jesus drove out the moneychangers so that God's glory would be primary. God's anger was always directed towards those who did not put their trust in Him. As the scriptures say, "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble."

Well, those of us who only have Jesus revealed to us in a book, a very special book granted, but a book nonetheless, may wonder what all this has to do with us. And, for that matter, one may ask, are we only ever to see God's face, but never be God's face, as Esau was to Jacob? I think that the answer is: We are to be God's face to humanity.

When a father wraps his child in loving arms, protecting them from harm, that child is seeing the face of God in his father. When people see another person being kind to a stranger, or to an animal, they see the face of God in that person. When we choose to share what we have, when we reach out to the oppressed, when we visit the widow and orphan, we are the face of God to the people to whom we minister.

The scripture tells the story of the Good Samaritan. It is obvious that the Samaritan was like the face of God to the beaten man. In the Prodigal Son story, the father was the face of God to his wayward son. Jesus was the face of God to the world.

Let us bring glory to God in all that we do. Let us be the face of God to those in our world.

ed
www.infinite-grace.com

[lucinda]

Ed,

Your story is so true to me. I am very touched. I truly believe that the face of God is in all of those who help others. I have seen this face many times in my life in friends, my children and complete strangers who for some reason were nice to me in my time of sadness. These people have contributed to choices I have made in my life. I give them and God thanks for w/o them I could have taken a different path. :clap2:

Thank you, Lucinda

[ozark]

Ed,

Very good. This is part of the change that many say is coming to the Christian paradigm. The focus may be changing from what you know to what you do as measure of a Christian. This is scary to some folks, but I think it is a good thing.

[Barry]

This is good enough to make an article bro.
Barry


PS, LOL ROFL
Just went over and saw it Ed. LOL ROFL

[Infinite Grace]

thanks for the feedback folks. This article was born in our family worship last night. We were singing Psalm 84 (we always sing the psalms in FW, a throwback to our Reformed Presbyterian days), and it speaks of rather than dwelling in "tents of wickedness", our desire is to "live near God's house." Well this led to a discussion of living near God's house NOW, not after death. That led to a discussion of seeing God, his face, in others. Thus, my idea was born.

One of the things many of us may remember from our days of evangelicalism (if you had those days) is the expression, "we may be the only Jesus people ever see..." or "we may be the only bible people ever read..." This is also the idea behind this article. I also weaved into this idea the message of Rob Bell on nooma.org. I told my kids that our lives are spent hearing God, and telling others: "I love you buddy, I know the way home. We'll be all right. I will do anything to get you home safely..." This is the message of love. Our concern for others. Our love for others. Forgiveness and grace. More and more grace. That's the word for today...and every day.

[davo]

"we may be the only bible people ever read..."

Yes, and this is indicative why some folks are inclined to leave or put the book on the shelf :D

BTW, great article Ed. :clap2:

[Amie]

Ed,

Very well said..

Amie

[Amie]

I read an article this morning containing this quote: "..people can't see Jesus for the Christians."

Isn't that something?

Amie

[Barry]

Awesome quote Amie.
Brings to mind the veil of 2 Cor. chapter 3 and 4 (even though there are some clear differences).
Hidden behind that veil is the most awesome love imaginable.
To be loved so much is really to fall in love with God and ultimately to fall in love with ones self as being so loved by God.
Does one argue with such love?
Does one tell God he doesn't know what he is doing?
If God has for whatever reason deemed me worthy, am I to contradict him?
I think not.
Free to love myself, free to love you.
Barry

[Infinite Grace]

Barry, that makes for an interesting analogy - the veil. When Christians portray God in those mean, vindictive, wrathful ways, are they acting as a veil? And if they are a veil, will God at some point tear them in half spiritually? Perhaps some of us felt like we were torn in two when God first began working that love and grace in us. Broken and spilled out - anyone remember that song?

[backtothefuture]

I do agree with much of what you say and yet at the same time, feel a pity pot for myself at times. My mission has always been about helping people. When my husband was out of work, still we gave to the food pantries because there is always someone worse off. My theme song for years was, Make me a servant humble and meek, Lord help me lift up those who are weak. I truly believed this was showing God love. What happened though, Is I gave and gave until I bled to death. When I reached the lowest of lows, there was no one to be the face of God for me. Such a test this has been. That or now I am thinking, I have been so blinded by my grief that i could not see those who were Christ to me. I have been asking God to open the eyes of my heart so to say. Either way, I have been broken and God has allowed it.
Nancy
ps. When God says he Hates someone or something in the bible. What is he really saying? Any Ideas?

[Infinite Grace]

When God says he Hates someone or something in the bible. What is he really saying? Any Ideas?

We have to look at the bible as a narrative, a story. Systematic theology, in my opinion, always causes trouble. Pick a verse to prove our theological position. That's what ST is all about.

With that said, we see 3 basic times in which the word "hate" is used in the scriptures. Once is in the Psalms where we are told that God "hates" the wicked every day, or something along those lines. The second place is, of course, where we are told that God "hated" Esau. And finally, we are told by Jesus that we are to "hate" our parents, or we can't say we love him.

Now, the first two examples can be interpreted, if you ignore the third, to mean that God has the opposite feeling of love toward someone. But when we look at the final example, we realize that to "hate" our parents would be a clear violation of God's command to "Honor Your Father and Mother."

We have heard many preachers "exegete" the latter passage something like this: "What Jesus means here is that we are to love him more than we love our parents." But then why don't these same preachers use that same logic when addressing the other uses of the hatred of God. Contextually, does it not mean that God is showing favor to one (love) and not to the other (hate)? He is preferring one over the other, plain and simple. In most cases, his preference was for a good reason: the wicked did evil, so he "hated" them, Jacob was the chosen one, so God "hated" Esau.

Yet, we see in the new covenant, God has destroyed the old (after Jesus fulfilled it). All things have passed away, behold all things have become new. With that newness comes the unfettered Love of God upon humanity. His unshackled Grace. His Infinite Grace.

I will say that some people still experience God's anger; e.g., these radical Muslims who blow people up, zealous Christians who blow up "sinners", and those "sinners" who murder babies in their mother's wombs, just to name a few. However, that does not mean, in my opinion, that endless torture awaits them. In fact, I don't think that God nature would allow him to torture someone endlessly.

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
I am not so sure endless torture awaits anyone either. What I really want to know, if there is so much grace in this world since the cross, why is it such a wicked place and why are so many people doing mean and terrible things. Do they just get to continue on and have a happy ever eternity?????
I just don't get it.
And as far as Hate. It has always bothered me that God said he loved one and hated the other. Right from the get go. I guess I still don't understand what you are saying about hate.
Plus in my journey as a Christian, my entire life I have heard, God loves you, God loves you, but for anyone that doesn't accept Jesus they are going to burn in hell. How loving is that. I think I have more questions than ever at this point in my life. In the end, I guess God is God and I am not, and what he does he does, but sometimes, I would like to understand just a little bit of what the truth of the Bible is all about. I feel like, some of my sitting before the Lord this year, is to be quite honestly, DE-programed. And part of my grief was buying into a false religion in so many ways. Once I started reading about preterism and some other ways of looking at things, my world as I knew it was turned upside down. I thought I knew the truth. But instead ended up just being another Pharisee with a bunch of laws. I guess its time to be thankful that God has begun to open my eyes and take a leap of faith in a new direction.
Blessings
Nancy

[Infinite Grace]

Nancy,
One of the "best" kept secrets in Churchianity is that there are other ways to believe other than endless torture for those who don't accept Christ. In fact, according to the German Reformed historian Philip Schaff, in the first 5 centuries "of the church" 6 theological schools existed. 4 of them were universalist, 1 was annihilationist, and only one (Rome) believed in endless torment.

There are some who believe that those who do not accept Christ as their savior will simply cease to exist after physical death - perhaps after a short time of suffering for their sins, but they will at some point cease to exist. The most prominent theologian I know that holds this view is John Stott.

Most of us here believe in what we call Infinite, or Fulfilled, or Common Grace. These are all offshoots from Tim King's Comprehensive Grace. Basically, our view is that Jesus has redeemed all humanity. It is religion that denies this, and religion that deceives people into this hateful acting out. I do believe that when people face God after physical death, if they have not experienced the life-changing "salvation" (visit Davo's site for a full explanation of the difference of salvation and redemption) in this life, they will see God as he is, realize the error of their ways, and experience what we might call "godly sorrow." Whereas the fundamentalist might say that after this godly sorrow, God will say to them, "Depart from me you evil-doers...", I believe that God will instead say, "your sins have been paid for by my son..."

I believe that this godly sorrow will be painful, but purging, cleansing, freeing. I believe that these folks will experience the love of God. Some folks call this universalism, I call it GRACE.

[Barry]

Hi Nancy.
These are my own thoughts. I won't try to prove them in scripture right away, only to put them out there on the table so to speak.
1). The Judgment of the first century (fulfillment, the promised judgment) was covenantal and did not really in itself decide right and wrong according to the simplicity of love, but rather in the a broader perspective of faith anticipation of a coming better age. This is evidenced by the fact that many OT fathers of faith were in fact scoundrels.
2) What Judgment all still have in front of them has more to do with the meaning of life as opposed to a "judgment day". This meaning of life is love. This is our judgment. Everyone must come to terms with this truth. Everyone will judge themselves as no one can escape love. In some cases it won't be pleasant. In short, better to come to terms now than latter but you (I they him her) will come to terms. No one can escape love and it's judgment. God is love.
3) There is still evil in the world because we still need history to learn and grow. We are only 2000 years distant from the end of the age (AD 70) and the beginning of a new era. God works in time frames that we are not used to thinking about. We want it yesterday.
In short then: we have the best possible world that God could give us at this time in view of His ongoing agenda with humanity. History implies that God does not usually move very fast by our standard of time. Nevertheless slavery is being abolished, women's rights and human rights are coming under greater respect ECT. God is working with his creation in this new era. Things are changing in ways that they never could in the old era.
5) fulfillment in AD 70 IMHO did not imply that everything would become perfect, but rather, relationship between God and man would be healed and so humankind could then progress in view of that healing.
6) our job is to come to terms with God's love and so then begin to love ourselves. This then turns into love for others. Love is the key an what that love implies is a great deal indeed.



This may not answer everything in one shot but that was to be expected :).
Just a thought,
Just my view,
Any thoughts?
Barry

[christyG]

HI ALL!

I was reading 2 Cor 3 and I had a thought about what the veil is referring to. I had always thought that the veil was referrring to a covering, something that was in the way so that they were UNABLE to see God. But, closer reading and thought, has me thinking. I think that the veil as it states refers to the veil that Moses wore because of the glory of the Lord causing his face to glow. BUT the glow lasted only TEMPORARILY, and soon faded. So when it says that, "to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts." It may be referring to the temporary glory that they experience through the law, or teachings of Moses. They are filled with glory, but the glory fades. Moses wore the veil because no one else could behold the glory of the Lord. Even Moses was not able to be transformed permenantly. He did not have to wear the veil forever.

But,"Whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away." Jesus, being a true reflection, and following him brings an UNFADING glory. The veil is taken away. We can now look at the Glory of the Lord.----the face of God. AND, we "are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory" -- not fading.

SO, instead of the veil referring to an inablility to understand, it seems to be their inability to reflect or even fully behold,the glory experienced at the reading of the law(temporary though it was).

Christy

PS Ozark, can you speak further about the Christian Paradigm you referred to?

[christyG]

Hi Nancy,

Your are very brave to be so honest and open. Thank You!

I have been trying to get a better handle on the ancient Hebrew world and our collective past, reading ALOT and I just wanted to say that "just being another Pharisee with a bunch of laws" is not such a bad thing.:)

We all have a "past" so to speak. Most of us have been indoctrinated into something, but what counts is when we chose to learn from where we have been and open ourselves up to being totally wrong. That to me is when the excitement begins.

Christy:)

[ozark]

PS Ozark, can you speak further about the Christian Paradigm you referred to?

Christy,

Can you show me what I said? I don't remember, LOL! Actually, there have been many Christian Paradigms. I think it would help folks to understand this. I suppose there was the ancient or early church paradigm then the Medieval paradigm, the Modern Paradigm, and now the Postmodern Paradigm. Each has a different way of looking at the world and the scriptures.

The key, of course, is to understand what words and ideas meant to the first Christians. It seems only in the last generation or so has there been a concentrated effort to do this. In times past people have tended to put Jesus in their mindset. I was in an art gallery a while back and saw some perfect examples of this. Paintings prior to the 16th century showed Jesus as a Medieval person. For example, there was one showing the crucifixion, and folks around the cross were wearing Medieval garb and carrying Medieval banners. Paintings of Jesus after the Modern paradigm kicked in show Jesus dressed in clothing that was more realistic for his day, but still a white guy, LOL! What perfect examples of how we try to make Jesus one of us rather than a first century Jew.

Sorry for rambling, but I believe this is part of the problem with the church's current understanding of hell. It has more in common with the Medieval paradigm and Dante's Inferno than the first century understanding of the matter. Yet, to say so, makes some people want to burn you at the stake, if you get my drift.

[Amie]

When God says he Hates someone or something in the bible. What is he really saying? Any Ideas?...

What I really want to know, if there is so much grace in this world since the cross, why is it such a wicked place and why are so many people doing mean and terrible things. Do they just get to continue on and have a happy ever eternity?????

Imho, biblical hate, God's hate, was never emotional distain. God's feelings for his creation never changed (again, just sharing my view). The "hate" of God was synonymous with "resistance". God saw things in the bigger picture. Redemption would not have been accomplished through Esau. That resistance even changed as the fulfillment approached (Mt 5:39).

"Evil" was anything that caused separation between humanity and God. That evil always came out of humanity, God is good. The rulership of that evil was defeated (no one stands between us and God now), the rulership of sin was defeated (though people still sin).

We are able now to live a happy eternity, there is good news for us all. As you know, that takes growth and realization. Everyone truly is a child in a different stage of maturity. I think that the world is in for positive transformations. The more that it realizes its' freedoms, the more it will screw up using them, and the more it will learn from them. Whether people place laws on themselves or not, the actual law was destroyed and the reality is that we are free.


That or now I am thinking, I have been so blinded by my grief that i could not see those who were Christ to me.

Perhaps that is because then, God was behind your eyes. I know that your strength, courage, and humility inspire me.

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Thank you everyone for responding to my rambling posts. Aime, i started crying when i read what you said. My journey has been so hard. I went to a counselor a year ago and she had me fill out a 10 page form. The last question on the form,was , what did I think my purpose in life was. And I said to suffer. She started crying. I didn't know what to do. But the truth is that through the suffering has come revelation everyday. Not always mind shattering, but little bits. If it wasn't for my suffering and grief journey, I wold not have found the grace place and that in it self has almost made the journey worth it.
I read the bible everyday at bagel church. But I am not sure what I am looking for. What are the kinds of things I should be connecting with.
I have gone from 2 years ago, wailing before God day and night, to singing my prayers every night on my guitar, to asking for Gods will in my life my kids and husband to I am broken Lord, please help me. I have also gone from grief, to angry at God and myself to bargaining with God, to trying to fake it to make it, to again, laying in bed at night and just saying, I am broken Lord,please help me. I don't know why i just don't give up and quit. What keeps me trying and looking for the answers. I just don't know. But for know that is where I am at.
Thanks for all the kind words. I sure can use them and your grace.
Nancy

[Barry]

Hi again sister Nancy.
Amie is better equipped than I am to connect effectively with you. Because of both gender and life experience.
However, allow me please to interject this one point that comes to mind.
I know your struggles they do touch upon some of my own. This is what I have learned so far. Perhaps there is something here for you, I don't know for sure but suspect that there may be.

We must fall in love with ourselves. It is knowing the infinite love of God for me that is enabling me to do so. Who am I to argue with such love? I don't need explanations I just need the acceptance. I don't have to know why, I just need to accept it.
Whatever happens from here I know I am loved and we will be together.
God's loving me has freed me to truly love what he loves. Now I can hold myself and care for myself and esteem myself in his loving kindness. Now I am free to love because I now know what love is.
Now I can grow and mature in the process of life and living, in relationships and temporary failures, in struggles and laughter, in pain and joy.

What this fellowship is really about IMO is that we can hold each ether's hand and take a few steps together in the infinite love of God.
Barry

[Amie]

Thanks for all the kind words. I sure can use them and your grace.

They are from the heart Nancy, they truly are. I think that the grace is God's. I suffered a great deal over my life as well, and I was ashamed of myself before God. It was his grace that even allowed me to look beyond the rock I was under and even feel worthy of being inspired. Realized redemption certainly doesn't mean that God no longer saves.


Amie is better equipped than I am to connect effectively with you. Because of both gender and life experience.

Suffering and pain don't have a sex. You have very much to offer imo - your post only proves my point (so I'm right - hahaha!).

Love,
Amie

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
I do know that one of the next steps on my journey is to accept myself and love myself. I never have felt worthy before God. Part of that is the abandonment issues in my life. But God has brought them to the table now, and I believe to free me of this burden. Its been really hard trying to hold up our daughter and reinforce that God loves her for just who she is, when at the same time I didn't believe it for myself. That in itself was revelation to me. So I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks!
Thanks everyone.
Off to Bagel Church!! Wish you could all meet me there one day!:biggrinbounce:

[backtothefuture]

At Bagel church today, while I was getting my usual pumpernickel bagel, I was thinking about the veil and what that could me for me. The first thing I thought of was the veil the bride wares at her wedding. Even though I am sure this is not the way it is to be interpreted, I thought, for me, the veil is Jesus. I lifted it first off my face when I took my vows to my husband and we made our covenant. Then it was lifted off my face again when I came to faith in Christ.
Nancy

[Amie]

I was reading through our member profiles when I found this written in "brianna53's":


Prayer of St. Teresa of Avila

Christ has no body now but yours.
No hands, no feet on earth, but yours.
Yours are the eyes through which He moves compassion on this world.
Yours are the feet with which He walks to do good.
Yours are the hands with which He blesses all the world.
Yours are the hands, yours are the feet.
Yours are the eyes; you are His body.
Christ has no body now but yours.
No hands, no feet on earth, but yours.
Yours are the eyes through which He moves compassion on this world.
Christ has no body now on earth but yours.

Wow.

Amie