Joining in...!

[Dena]

Howdy...!

I'm Dena Brehm, 46, living in Dallas, Oregon (the little "d"), married to Mark, mother of multitudes (ok, just 8 children, and 3 more waiting for me).

I'm on more discussion lists than I can sanely keep up with (though, reallly, sanity is highly overrated)... recently joined the conversation over at Presence, and I recognize a few names here from my adventures on other lists... HCDL, LifestreamJourney, Tentmaker, and others. Fun, how connections are made and re-made!

While I can't quite claim ever having been "normal", I was, once upon a time, a rather predictable (albeit endless-question-asking) Christian ... who was also a relentless pursuer of healing... truth and healing, truth and healing, couldn't get enough. The healing of our marriage got us kicked out of the church where Mark was ordained (they couldn't take the truth), and I then uttered a prayer that has forever since rocked my world:

"God! I don't know what I believe anymore! Start me over! Show me what's of man, and what's of You!"

Sheesh, talk about having what can be shaken, get shaken. Soooooo many sacred cows have been tipped, right and left. It's been the most disconcerting, theology-messing, liberating four years of my LIFE...!

Wouldn't trade ' em for anything.

I've spent the past year studying "what the hell is hell"... which led me to realize, "dang, I'm a Univeralist." Not that I like labels -- but others have slapped them on me.

Then, since I was on this heretical-bent, a friend suggested that I look into Preterism, which, while I found it utterly compelling, seemed to be hand-in-glove with reformed theology. Couldn't go there. However, I really liked how Universalism and Preterism seemed to fit together SO well ... but I couldn't figure out why the Universalists and Preterists seemed at odds with each other... you'd think folks on the fringe would get along.:confused:

So, I was thinking of starting this new movement, combining the two, when Lo and Behold, it was recommended to me to check out Presence.tv and Pantelism.com, and VOILA! You folks have beaten me to it, saving me all manner of time and energy ~ thanks!:D

AND, what blew me especially away, is how all y'all LIKE each other, and co-mingle, rather than competing...! Way-cool! I mean, y'all are acting like... how Christians are supposed to!:biggrinbounce:

(not that I'm much liking the "Christian" label these days... but I digress)

I really like how conversations are kept open 'round here, minus the labels ...

Hoping I haven't made all manner of faux pas with my very first posts -- now I'm off to explore and absorb!

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Barry]

Hey Dena,
For me a prayer did also start it all.

And it was similar to your own.

It is amazing what a prayer can do :)

Great to have you here and welcome.
Barry

[Paige]

Welcome Dena!

I've read your posts over at Presence, and am glad you are checking things out (just about everywhere :D ). Just wanted to let you know that if you do actually make it to CO this Sept. for the Presence conference, my hubby and I will be there too. Hope you can bring that all together. BTW, the 8th of Sept. will be our 24th anniversary, so we'll be celebrating together just before we take off. (I thought I remembered you mentioning over there about making it kind of an anniversary weekend for you both.)

Paige

[ozark]

Dena,

I think you are going to have a wonderful time at talk-grace. Welcome!:sign_welcome:

[davo]

Hey Dena, glad you made it over here :9_cool:

[Laren]

Welcome. Look forward to getting to know you more and sharing.


by the way, what is presence??

[davo]

Over here Laren -- http://www.presence.tv and in particular their forum here -- http://www.presence.tv/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi

[Amie]

Dena,

Welcome to Talk-Grace!!


AND, what blew me especially away, is how all y'all LIKE each other, and co-mingle, rather than competing...! Way-cool! I mean, y'all are acting like... how Christians are supposed to!

Lol! I've got another one for you, if you think that's cool. There are folks here from a Yahoo list that go by the label "Preterist Universalist": preteristuniversalism (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/preteristuniversalism/?v=1&t=search&ch=web&pub=groups&sec=group&slk=5) That group is moderated by Rhonda Hafley. I have a couple of her writings published at womenbeyond.com. I don't know whether they come from a reformed background. In my experience, the label "preterist" is broad.

There are definitely some from Tentmaker. I like that board a lot, but for me those conversations get so in-depth that I usually make sure that I have a good amount of time to dedicate when I post over there. I am glad that they ask the questions that they do, and that they trust what their heart is telling them.

I didn't know about the other forums that you brought up (save for Presence of course). I might surf over and check 'em out :).

I treat labels like the choices at a buffet - I'm not limited to or by any single one. If it becomes restricting, I can scrape it off my plate - lol! It's much easier (for me) though, to put the food down and just talk.

Laren,

Presence is the host of the Transmillennial conferences that many of us like to attend - and that Doug and I have spoken at in the past. (I'll be there too Dena! Albeit just "schmoozing" this year!)

Amie

[Dena]

Thanks for the warm welcome, y'all (we talk that way in Dallas -- even Dallas, Oregon!). I'm sitting here listening to a talk by Tim King as I type... multi-tasking!

Funny about PreteristUniversalist -- forgot to mention I'm a member there -- and forgot to mention Sacred Cow Tippers -- another Yahoo list I started when my emails started to annoy my friends and family...! (Rhonda joined there, too!)

Not all the lists I'm on are for UR/Preterism ... some focus on house church/simple church (or out of the institutional church), some are unschooling lists, others are artist lists, others are on EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique) - and one focuses on God's view of sex in marriage (can we say s-e-x here?).

All somewhat radical stuff - each one irks the snot out of someone, somewhere ... it occurs to me that if I'd met myself 5 years ago, I wouldn't want anything to do with me...! :P I was never "normal" -- I just don't hide it much these days. Too pooped to pretend anymore.

My husband is now intrigued enough about Pantelism/Transmillennialism, et. al. that he's willing to go to the conference with me! Woo-HOO! Of course, it didn't hurt to remind him that we will be in a hotel room, sans children, for a few nights... and he suggested that we stay over one more night, the 13th (our 22nd anniversary -- good memory, Paige!).

I'm a wee bit bummed that there's no more room in the "castle" but I figure God knows what He's doing.

Hey - tech question -- how do I get notifications for messages here...? Getting used to two new forums is causing a brain-strain! (oooh, I think I just figured it out -- I used the advanced posting option, and saw that I can "subscribe" to notifications - cool.)

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Me Again]

Dena,
I LOVE talking about s-e-x here and everywhere. My wife gets mad at me sometimes, but sex is good (she thinks so too, she just wishes I was a little more "Christian" in my behavior - lol - she's not quite where I am theologically).

Glad to have you on board. Glad to hear that you are a homeschooler (I am inferring from your "unschooling" participation). Paige and I both are home educators (the phrase I prefer, to differentiate the kids sitting at a desk doing assignments). We have a big garden, where the kids learn so much about science and stuff. I love playing Scrabble to teach my kids language arts, and Krypto (a card game) to teach them math. Reading is the backbone of everything we do...we've always encouraged that.

My wife and I have a total of 8 kids, with 4 foster kids who we are going to adopt in the near future, for a total of 12. You can see all 12 on my Album, plus some daughters-in-law and a son-in-law.

Glad to have you on board. Hope we see a lot of you.

ed

[Amie]

Dena,

HEY, maybe that label will work for us all!: "Et. al." LOL! I'm curious, why the "shalom"? Usually there's a story with that word usage...

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Hi Dena,
Welcome. My name is Nancy. I am 57 years young and I left organized church 3 years ago. I now attend what I call Bagel church. (long story, but great place!)
I hope you will continue to share your story with us. I am still learning myself.
My life and heart have truly been turned up-side down in a good way by all I have learned here.
My husband and I have our 30th on November 4th.
Also home schooled our now 28 year old daughter for high school after taking her out of a Christian high school, and our now 26 year old son when he was starting to go into 8th grade.
I think that started bringing out my radical side. Which I only just discovered I had:biggrinbounce:
We mostly un-schooled.:biglaugha:. Had lots of fun and it was the best time ever.
Blessings and welcome
Nancy

[Lauri]

Hi Dena,
Welcome aboard! I enjoyed your posts over at Presence and am glad you found your way over here. My husband and I will be at the Presence conference so it will be good to meet you in person!

Lauri

[Dena]

Dena,
I LOVE talking about s-e-x here and everywhere. My wife gets mad at me sometimes, but sex is good (she thinks so too, she just wishes I was a little more "Christian" in my behavior - lol - she's not quite where I am theologically).

Whew! Not that I plan on being titillating or anything, but we were healed in this area (which got us kicked out of church -- not that we were cavorting in front of the altar on Sundays!), and my best friends own The Marriage Bed (website), and I'm somewhat used to being somewhat open (situation-appropriately, of course). I read something in the user agreement here that "sexually explicit" language, or something akin to that, is not allowed. I'm not wanting to get explicit ... I just like to brag on what God did, and to reclaim this area ... my opinion is that the world should be jealous of our sex lives. It's a great evangelizing tool!

So, you and Paige here are married..? How fun!


Glad to have you on board. Glad to hear that you are a homeschooler (I am inferring from your "unschooling" participation). Paige and I both are home educators (the phrase I prefer, to differentiate the kids sitting at a desk doing assignments). We have a big garden, where the kids learn so much about science and stuff. I love playing Scrabble to teach my kids language arts, and Krypto (a card game) to teach them math. Reading is the backbone of everything we do...we've always encouraged that.

We started out with rather traditional homeschooling, complete with desks and pledging allegience to the flag, back in Virginia ... then moved, and things are different here (Oregonians, having been founded by pioneers, have a rather independent streak about 'em). Plus, having had baby #8 (or #11, depending), at age 45, threw me for a loop, in everywhich way, and I couldn't keep up with my old, rigid methodolgy. So, I threw myself at God, and said, "I quit" and He said "finally!" and showed me unschooling ... so now I guide them, and get out of their way, and they've rediscovered their inherent love of learning... so far, the first one, who just got his degree in EMT and firefighting science, is making me proud with his 4.0, which means something's working..! Who knew?

Our days sound much like yours ... isn't it amazing how they just learn in spite of everything? You can't keep the kids from learning! And, when it's real-life, and they're motivated -- it sticks. (end of unschooling infomercial)


My wife and I have a total of 8 kids, with 4 foster kids who we are going to adopt in the near future, for a total of 12. You can see all 12 on my Album, plus some daughters-in-law and a son-in-law.

What a joyous riot! I swear, I do not remember signing up to be a mom of multitudes. I precisely recall planning on one boy and one girl, and sending them off to boarding school. Yeah, that was my plan. Oh, and making a fortune on Broadway -- that, too. God's still laughing. But, I DO have drama! NO need to preach to the choir, huh?:biggrinbounce:



Glad to have you on board. Hope we see a lot of you.

ed

As my friend Paul says, "Dena types like a 400 lb man." I somehow take it as a compliment (I'm actually 5'1" and 98 lb, but I "type tall").

Thanks for the exuberent welcome, Ed... Exuberent Ed. That works!:cool:

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Me Again]

Hey Dena, let me clarify a few things -

First, Paige and I are married, but not to each other...she's an awesome lady but her beau got her first - lucky guy. I'm pretty lucky too, my wife Dana is awesome...

Second, I was joking about the s-e-x, which is why I wrote it like that...kind of playing along with you. Don't worry, I believe in modesty, and appropriateness. I do like fun - one kind here on the forum, and another in the bedroom with my wife. I think that I'll check out your friend's site. It sounds interesting.

Sex is about companionship, I think primarily, but also about procreation, as the Lord allows. I've often argued with a Catholic friend of mine about this issue, and he wants to turn those priorities around. I disagree, but it's okay, I still love him (even though he's part of the "Harlot Church" lol, just joking, funnin', don't really mean it).

again, welcome.

[graham]

Hey, Dena!

Welcome to TG.

Great to hear that you're going to be at the T2008 conference. Look forward to meeting you. (I'll be the Brit at the poorly attended seminar!)

[Me Again]

Dena, I really like your friend's site. Good and very balanced information. I can understand why you feel liberated to be all God intends for you to be as a partner in marriage.

One thing, and I am NOT harping on it, but your friend refers a number of times on the site concerning homosexuality, usually as a sinful practice. While many here would agree with that assessment, most of us here believe that, since the Law which condemns, was fulfilled and then nullified (the last enemy to be nullified is death), homosexuals are "under grace" like the rest of us.

Again, I'm not trying to force anything on you or your friend, and perhaps you don't agree with your friend, I don't know. I just wanted to point that out before it might become a sticking point for anyone else on the forum...guests, I mean.

I try my best to communicate honestly and gently, but as some here can tell you, I fail often. So, if I have offended, I apologize in advance. Also, feel free to speak your mind on that issue or any other, we have a pretty open forum here, but we frown on trying to convert others, even us attempting to convert others to our views. This is a place of safety and open discussion - not debate and argumentation.

Am I sounding argumentative? Hope not! Forgive me if I am! Please !

[Dena]

Dena, I really like your friend's site. Good and very balanced information. I can understand why you feel liberated to be all God intends for you to be as a partner in marriage.


Yep - got there the hard way, after making my husband suffer for 17 long years. God had to show me what's what where His gifts are concerned. And I agree with you about sex being primarily about relationship/unity, and secondarily about procreation (we who have clearly done our share, and then some, to populate planet earth!). When I read Song of Solomon, there's a whole lotta frolicking going on, and no mention of it being for the purpose of begatting.


One thing, and I am NOT harping on it, but your friend refers a number of times on the site concerning homosexuality, usually as a sinful practice. While many here would agree with that assessment, most of us here believe that, since the Law which condemns, was fulfilled and then nullified (the last enemy to be nullified is death), homosexuals are "under grace" like the rest of us.

Again, I'm not trying to force anything on you or your friend, and perhaps you don't agree with your friend, I don't know. I just wanted to point that out before it might become a sticking point for anyone else on the forum...guests, I mean.

I hear you -- the views here are rather new to me, my husband,and our friends. We discuss, amongst ourselves, that we've made much too much ado about homosexuality, while dismissing other sins. I'm still exploring the ramifications of what being "under grace" truly means, from a fulfilled perspective. My brain is currently going "ouch!" But, even before starting to see this, we were all saying, "why point out one particular sin"?

Of course, the site deals with Christians of more traditional ilks, and there's no telling how things may change.



I try my best to communicate honestly and gently, but as some here can tell you, I fail often. So, if I have offended, I apologize in advance. Also, feel free to speak your mind on that issue or any other, we have a pretty open forum here, but we frown on trying to convert others, even us attempting to convert others to our views. This is a place of safety and open discussion - not debate and argumentation.

Am I sounding argumentative? Hope not! Forgive me if I am! Please !

LOL - no offense, no need to apologize. I GREATLY appreciate the atmosphere here, and recognize what a rarity it is!

I have MUCH to learn about this new paradigm that I'm entering ... part of the reason for wanting to come to Transmillennial 2008 -- I have the feeling I've got several "aha-moments" in store for me!:biggrinbounce:

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Dena]

Hey, Dena!

Welcome to TG.

Great to hear that you're going to be at the T2008 conference. Look forward to meeting you. (I'll be the Brit at the poorly attended seminar!)

Thanks, Graham! I've seen you all OVER the Internet! Nice to meet you here, too. I'm looking forward to what Papa has in store here!

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[graham]

Thanks, Graham! I've seen you all OVER the Internet!

Oh, dear! I'm not so sure that's a good thing. :o

Is your husband going to make it to T2008 as well? It'd be great to chat with you both.

[Dena]

Oh, dear! I'm not so sure that's a good thing. :o

Is your husband going to make it to T2008 as well? It'd be great to chat with you both.

Yeppers - we'll both be there!

The 13th is our anniversary, so we'll be staying over one more night, to enjoy the sans-children ambience...!

We'll be at the Embassy Suites hotel, since we got in after Glen Eyrie filled up.

We're both race-walkers, so I'm hoping I can quickly acclimate to the altitude. I was in Denver two years ago, while 9 months pregnant, and was POOPED! 'Course, I could've stayed home and been pooped, too. Being pregnant and 45 means being pooped, period... it also means folks congratulate you on your "grandchild"...!

When I lived in Leavenworth, KS, back in the late 70's, our church youth group went skiing in CO-Springs, staying in Spring Canyon - gorgeous place! So many good memories... I love how the mountains ZOOM up out of nowhere, after the endless plains of Kansas and eastern Colorado!

(or, would that be aionian plains..?)

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Dena]

Dena,

HEY, maybe that label will work for us all!: "Et. al." LOL! I'm curious, why the "shalom"? Usually there's a story with that word usage...

Amie

Aw, shoot!

Sorry for the long delay, Aime, but I didn't see that there was more than one page to this thread, and I wasn't getting notificaitons!

About the "shalom"... my husband is Jewish (Jesus-follower), and our 8 kids are half-Jewish, so that's how it got started.

Then, I found out all that Shalom means - peace, of course, but fullness of all that God has for us -- nothing missing, nothing broken.

I'm a healing-hog, and so it fits me. I've always used it, and if you google it you can find all manner of things...! It got me into trouble once, and it's what God used to get us out off a legalistic church...!

Freedom is good... more, Lord!

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Dena]

Hi Dena,
Welcome. My name is Nancy. I am 57 years young and I left organized church 3 years ago. I now attend what I call Bagel church. (long story, but great place!)
I hope you will continue to share your story with us. I am still learning myself.
My life and heart have truly been turned up-side down in a good way by all I have learned here.
My husband and I have our 30th on November 4th.
Also home schooled our now 28 year old daughter for high school after taking her out of a Christian high school, and our now 26 year old son when he was starting to go into 8th grade.
I think that started bringing out my radical side. Which I only just discovered I had:biggrinbounce:
We mostly un-schooled.:biglaugha:. Had lots of fun and it was the best time ever.
Blessings and welcome
Nancy

Sheesh, I missed this whole page!

Hiya Nancy!

I love bagels, so I'm sure we'll be friends! Though, what passes for bagels in Oregon is seriously sorry...! There's one NY style bagel deli in Oregon that I know of -- owned by a Muslim guy who was trained in a Jewish deli in New Jersey, now in a little college town called Monmouth, about 8 miles away from me. I make the trip to stock up. We go through dozens per week. He loves me!

Yeah, I'm enjoying unschooling, too... couldn't keep up with traditional homeschooling - it was like teaching pigs to sing. Doesn't work, and annoys the pigs.

Nice to meet you!Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Dena]

Hi Dena,
Welcome aboard! I enjoyed your posts over at Presence and am glad you found your way over here. My husband and I will be at the Presence conference so it will be good to meet you in person!

Lauri

Thanks Lauri -

For some reason, I can't load my posts at Presence ... I had some dang good questions, too!

No idea if it's an AOL problem, or a Presence problem. Anyone else having trouble loading posts?Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[backtothefuture]

Hi Dena,
I hope you will share how your marriage was healed with us and why you left the church. Lots of stories here.
on our 25th 5 years ago I just sobbed. But then I came here and learned so much. Mostly that God loved me and had not abandoned me like I thought. Nor my husband. I asked God for 25 good years now and in November we have our 30th and the entire atmosphere in our marriage is so different. More tender, calming and respectful of one another.
I believe that happened for me, because of learning the truth here and getting away from all the legalism that practically ruined my life.
Going to Bagel church now. One of my friends just got back from a trip from England where she sang with a choir in lots of the churches, so most excited to hear about her adventures over there.
Blessings,
Nancy

[graham]

Thanks Lauri -

For some reason, I can't load my posts at Presence ... I had some dang good questions, too!

No idea if it's an AOL problem, or a Presence problem. Anyone else having trouble loading posts?

How long has that been going on, Dena?

I'll let Kevin know and get back to you with any solutions.

[Amie]

About the "shalom"... my husband is Jewish (Jesus-follower), and our 8 kids are half-Jewish, so that's how it got started.

Then, I found out all that Shalom means - peace, of course, but fullness of all that God has for us -- nothing missing, nothing broken.

Kewell :9_cool:. I was raised pretty much having the fulfilled view, though in a household that picked and chose which laws they would impose as still in effect. The silence of women was a big thing, heh. I came across this:


Mat 5:18 Truly I say to you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, in no way shall one iota or one point pass away from the Law until all comes to pass.

It hit me that it's really an "either/or" thing. These folks can't have it both ways. I studed with Messianic Jews for a while and attended synagogue. I with all effort and openness sought for something yet to be fulfilled and nothing was provided that made sense to me at all. That doesn't mean that they're wrong persay, it just means that I couldn't take on their point of view, ya know? I also learned that modern Torah keeping cannot be biblical without the temple and that modern Judaism differs from the old stuff because of that. I loved the eastern spirit though - I just ate that up! I loved watching people do very old dances in worshipping God. It was a moving experience for me - as was grasping the meaning of "shalom" (hence, why I asked).


I'm a healing-hog, and so it fits me. I've always used it, and if you google it you can find all manner of things...! It got me into trouble once, and it's what God used to get us out off a legalistic church...!

Freedom is good... more, Lord!

I can SO relate! For me, this unveiling has been relieving, unburdening, and leaves me popping with joy! I understand how David could dance naked in the street - but I'm not so out of the box, lol!

I haven't had problems loading posts at the Presence forum, but I reckon Graham is on it :D.

Amie

[Dena]

Hi Dena,
I hope you will share how your marriage was healed with us and why you left the church. Lots of stories here.
on our 25th 5 years ago I just sobbed. But then I came here and learned so much. Mostly that God loved me and had not abandoned me like I thought. Nor my husband. I asked God for 25 good years now and in November we have our 30th and the entire atmosphere in our marriage is so different. More tender, calming and respectful of one another.
I believe that happened for me, because of learning the truth here and getting away from all the legalism that practically ruined my life.
Going to Bagel church now. One of my friends just got back from a trip from England where she sang with a choir in lots of the churches, so most excited to hear about her adventures over there.
Blessings,
Nancy

Sure, I can share that story ... let's see if I can make it more succinct than usual...!

When I got married, I was a rabid bulimic. From the age of 18 to 39, it consumed me. I tried everything to get freedom: therapists, drugs, 12-step programs, treatment centers, inner healing, deliverance, exorcism (that was fun - yeah, make a bulimic throw up, talk about a cheap-shot), endless prayer-lines, running all over the country (& Europe), to find healing. Nada.

During that time, I got married, had a slew of babies (6 by the time I found healing, 2 more later), husband went to seminary, got ordained, served in the church as "assistant pastor" (different titles for liturgical/evangelical/charismatic churches). Finally, I found a tool called Theophostic prayer ... Jesus showed me the lies I was believing, then replaced them with truth, and bingo - healed. Done deal. No temptations for the past 7.5 years. He does good work! However, despite that healing, I continued to have sexual dysfunction ... I'd been promiscuous prior to marriage (looking for daddy's love in all the wrong places), and then had inexplicably turned frigid when I got married (a rather common pattern, I've since discovered). For 17 long years, I refused my husband, and also withheld all affection from him, though he remained faithful. Miserable, but faithful. Finally, he turned to God, and God showed him how to love me as I was, with no expectation of me ever changing (could ONLY be God doing that in him - I was no picnic!).

My church, however, was angry, since I'd gone "outside the covering" for the healing -- in fact, they wouldn't acknowledge the healing -- called it a "gimmick" and a "formula" at best, and demonic at worst, and forbade me to speak of it. Oh, and because I couldn't be quiet (you try to keep quiet about a miracle!), I was called a Jezebel, and accused of splitting the church (thinking of starting a Jezebel support group...).

Much more troubled water under the bridge later (including two miscarriages), we were in the process of exposing the legalism, abuse and control going on (as "insiders" we saw what was going on and how so many people were being hurt and manipulated, with the guise of "touch not God's anointed"). We went through proper channels, and wanted to bring about healing, not reprisal.

Well, during this tumultuous time, God used Theophostic (Greek for God's Light), to go to the root of my sexual dysfunction. In a holy-moment-download, He showed me the lies I believed about sex, and replaced them with His truth - wowzers! I had no iDEa! He made Song of Solomon come to life for me. I felt desire for my own husband for the first time in my life (quite frankly, it felt too sinful to be true, but I figured I'd enjoy it while it lasted, and repent later!). I'll spare the details, but suffice it to say that we launched into a "honeymoon" like nothing I could've ever imagined was possible, and our marriage was amazing, on every level -- the sexual ran into the emotional ran into the spiritual (just like God intended). I ended up finding a marvelous Christian website about marriage and God's view of sex, called The Marriage Bed (which confirmed what God had shown me) - and I began posting there with abandon... talking about the miracle that God had done, and bringing hope to others who were suffering in silence (the Church, by and large, does not let us speak of sex, and many, many are deeply in pain, with nowhere to go for help and healing). For the first time in our marriage, we were bonded like nobody's business.

Which was good, because our church tried like the dickens to split us up. Y'see, he was the golden boy, and I was the baggage. They tried to mold me into the "good clergy wife" and to squelch my personality, but I just couldn't conform, no matter how hard I tried. I asked too many questions, didn't submit appropriately, and dared to use my mind (I recall reading that God gave it to me, and wanted me to use it to love Him). Once a Jezebel, always a Jezebel...

My priest caught wind that we were having the abuses investigated by the arch-bishop, and he scrambled to do damage control, ala CYA. He googled my always-used signature line, "Shalom, Dena," expecting perhaps to find me on some website, slandering him (therefore discrediting our testimony against him). Instead, he found the mother-lode of ammunition against me: my posts on The Marriage Bed. He illegally printed out my posts (I had over 200 at the time, thousands since), and brought them to the arch-bishop.

My husband was informed that there was a bishop's council - a formal gathering of the local clergy -- and was led to believe that it would be about his view, vs. the priest's view, on the abuse charges. However, he was ambushed. When he sat down, the bishop pulled out all of my posts, and read them, out of context, portraying me to be a sexual deviant, out of control, and involved in "cyber-affairs" (all because I now, finally, due to God's intervention, desired my own husband).

Mark was told to choose between his ordination, and his wife.

No dummy, he chose me. He resigned his ordination, after 3 years of seminary and 10 years of serving in that church. It was both the most wrenchingly painful, and yet intoxicatingly liberating, thing we had endured.

The next day, a meeting was held with the rest of the church (folks we'd known for up to 20 years, all of our friends, and childrens' friends). The priest told them that we had committed such grievous sins, that they could not be described in public. As such, we had to be officially shunned. Further, in order to be "safe", all the members of the congregation had to come forward, to pledge their loyalty to the priest and his wife, and to turn against us (for if they knew the truth, many would've followed us out). We lost all of our friends, in one fell swoop, without the opportunity to say good-bye -- and our children did not understand (we had to explain to the teenagers).

One morning, after the expulsion, I was trying to read the Bible, and could only hear "their voices" giving me "their interpretations." I put the Bible aside, and cried out, "God, I don't know WHAT I believe anymore! All I know is You're the only God, and Jesus is the only Way -- beyond that, I'm clueless, for they indoctrinated me! Start me over! Show me what's of man, and what's of God!"

Thus began the adventures I fondly call: the Art of Sacred Cow Tipping. So much beef, so little time. It has been a truly WILD adventure...! (How many paradigm shifts can one woman endure in a single lifetime?!?)

We spent another year in the area, and then God led us to move 3,000 miles away, to a small town in Oregon. While doing an extensive "church search" (28 churches in this little religious town!), God made it clear to us that we were to leave the institutional system altogether ... we've been gathering as "simple church" ever since, in our home, or wherever we find other believers or seekers.

Interestingly, after knowing them online for a few years, we got to meet the folks who own/run The Marriage Bed face to face, and we all hit it off famously. They've since moved from Texas to Oregon to be in fellowship with us, and now live in our guest house, next door. God is good!

So much for succinct...!:biglaugha: (I tried.)

There's more details in a couple of places, if'n you're so inclined:

http://theophostic.com/content.asp?ID=87

http://www.ptm.org/06PT/SepOct/formerChurch.pdf

(now, you MUST share about Bagel Church!)

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Dena]

How long has that been going on, Dena?

I'll let Kevin know and get back to you with any solutions.


It's been several days. I let Kevin know via email, and he made some suggestions ...

I did the log out/log in thingy...

and the toss-the-cookies thingy (more bulimic humor!)...

and the quick-shut-down-and-open-up-and-repost-to-fool-the-AOL-lack-of-IP-designation-thingy...

To no avail!

I posted just fine for days, and then BAM!

Now,when I try to post, it starts to load, and then just seems to poop out half way through loading -- and then eventually gives me that page that says the webiste is not available ("to the likes of YOU!") (nah, doesn't say that last part, but man, I'm starting to take it personally!).:cool:

Could it be that it's an AOL-thing?

Oddly, I can post here, and on plenty of other forums, and Yahoo groups.

Must be computer gremlins, no?

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Dena]

Kewell :9_cool:. I was raised pretty much having the fulfilled view, though in a household that picked and chose which laws they would impose as still in effect. The silence of women was a big thing, heh. I came across this:



It hit me that it's really an "either/or" thing. These folks can't have it both ways. I studed with Messianic Jews for a while and attended synagogue. I with all effort and openness sought for something yet to be fulfilled and nothing was provided that made sense to me at all. That doesn't mean that they're wrong persay, it just means that I couldn't take on their point of view, ya know? I also learned that modern Torah keeping cannot be biblical without the temple and that modern Judaism differs from the old stuff because of that. I loved the eastern spirit though - I just ate that up! I loved watching people do very old dances in worshipping God. It was a moving experience for me - as was grasping the meaning of "shalom" (hence, why I asked).



I can SO relate! For me, this unveiling has been relieving, unburdening, and leaves me popping with joy! I understand how David could dance naked in the street - but I'm not so out of the box, lol!

I haven't had problems loading posts at the Presence forum, but I reckon Graham is on it :D.

Amie

I was JUST using that very same verse to 'splain something to a friend!

It's amazing once you see it ... either it's ALL fulfilled, or we're still under the law, period.

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[backtothefuture]

Dena,
I loved reading your story. I will gladly join your Jezebel club if you are taking new members!!
I ended up at a bagel place right around the corner from me broken and totally not knowing what I believed anymore. 5 years ago we had had, 27 deaths in our family including the cat and dog in less than 2 years. I also went on disability for my Fybromyalgia.
We had probably gone to 25 Churches in this area in the 25 years we had been married. But it was always me who wanted to leave and just never put a good answer on why until I finally did leave.
The last church I was in during this hard time in our lives had a young 27 year old pastor. He was very fundamental and I had lived 25 years longer than him to know that some of the stuff he was preaching was rubbish.
He stood up one Sunday and said that anyone on antidepressants or getting counseling was walking in the flesh.
I swear to you. I don't normally hear voices but that Sunday I heard God say, "Nancy, close up your bible and walk out of here , this is how you will find your healing. You have to leave the church."
So I slammed by bible shut. I was so angry and came home just broken.
I was in so much spiritual and emotional and physical pain. My husband and kids also from all the trauma we had been through.
I started going to this bagel place and just sitting alone and started reading my bible again. Only this time trying to read the way I have learned about things here. I also came here about that time. Saved my life Dena:)
Well, one by one I started meeting people. After a year I asked my husband to join me one morning for breakfast. Its now been 3 years and we just love it there. When I was sick this past spring, I got cards and meals and calls and we never even talk about religion. We are all from different backgrounds. Its been a community and thats what I was trying to find in the church.
I have had many people write me and tell me I am a heretic (YEAH) or sinning by not assembling together with believers??? GO Figure. All my best friends are Christians and all of the people at the bagel church, but that doesn't count I guess!!
But anyway, it opened the door for much healing in my life. In our marriage also. I also now have a desire for my husband. Wasn't always that way. Once God opened up the lies to the abandonment I was feeling, things just totally kept getting better around here:clap2:
You and others may get a kick out of this. I mean no disrespect to any counselor here (ED).
I left the gal I was seeing a month ago. I felt that the healing I needed was fulfilled when I finally realized this. But just for the days when I am a little down I talk to DR. Hope now.
I bought a poster board at target and drew a picture of a woman on one side. Under her picture I put some sentences. 1. Is it true what you are thinking or feeling?
2. can you change, leave or stay in the situation?
3. can you find acceptance on where you are at.?
I place her in my office chair and sit in my rocking chair as we have therapy:clap2: Its much cheaper, and she is a good listener!!!
Anyway, thanks for your honesty and I am so happy in your healing.
Blessings,
Nancy

[Me Again]

Dena,
just wanted you to know that I am a member on Marriage Bed Forum. My "handle" is angel of liberty.

I just posted, kind of nastily, on the thread about the young woman who got pregnant, and she's a Christian and the father of the baby is not. I enjoyed your posts about marriage, something I've argued for awhile. Most of those folks there don't even know what the bible says about fornication or adultery: first of all, what they are; and secondly, what the penalty is.

[Dena]

Dena,
just wanted you to know that I am a member on Marriage Bed Forum. My "handle" is angel of liberty.

I just posted, kind of nastily, on the thread about the young woman who got pregnant, and she's a Christian and the father of the baby is not. I enjoyed your posts about marriage, something I've argued for awhile. Most of those folks there don't even know what the bible says about fornication or adultery: first of all, what they are; and secondly, what the penalty is.


I'm guessing you figured me out there -- I'm "Shulamite-in-Training".

You've got one response thus far -- I chimed in...!

So, are are others going to join in, or are they out gathering stones...?

You'll notice that most of the folks there are very traditional -- but there are some surprpisingly open folks in the midst. I've been posting there for over 4 years, and I've got some dear friends there.

I hope you enjoy yourself there -- it's a very unique site. There just aren't many well-moderated (to keep the riffraff out) Christian sites about sexualilty out there. I've been planting seeds, and watering as I can, but they prefer to keep the topic on marriage and sexuality.

If you check out the "dead horses" section (you have to subscribe separately to that section), you'll see that there are many threads that I managed to "kill" by sharing my non-traditional views (not that the owners shut it down -- they LOVE radical conversations -- but the other posters turn nasty, and then they lock it up).

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Dena]

Dena,
I loved reading your story. I will gladly join your Jezebel club if you are taking new members!!

Sure, there's always room...! :D


I ended up at a bagel place right around the corner from me broken and totally not knowing what I believed anymore. 5 years ago we had had, 27 deaths in our family including the cat and dog in less than 2 years. I also went on disability for my Fybromyalgia.

I'm guessing that the stress of the losses fed into the fibro ... there's an incredible emotional/physical connection there.


We had probably gone to 25 Churches in this area in the 25 years we had been married. But it was always me who wanted to leave and just never put a good answer on why until I finally did leave.
The last church I was in during this hard time in our lives had a young 27 year old pastor. He was very fundamental and I had lived 25 years longer than him to know that some of the stuff he was preaching was rubbish.
He stood up one Sunday and said that anyone on antidepressants or getting counseling was walking in the flesh.
I swear to you. I don't normally hear voices but that Sunday I heard God say, "Nancy, close up your bible and walk out of here , this is how you will find your healing. You have to leave the church."
So I slammed by bible shut. I was so angry and came home just broken.
I was in so much spiritual and emotional and physical pain. My husband and kids also from all the trauma we had been through.

I can relate -- I'm so sorry for that pain -- even though I can see how it led to your liberty.


I started going to this bagel place and just sitting alone and started reading my bible again. Only this time trying to read the way I have learned about things here. I also came here about that time. Saved my life Dena:)

I hear you!


Well, one by one I started meeting people. After a year I asked my husband to join me one morning for breakfast. Its now been 3 years and we just love it there. When I was sick this past spring, I got cards and meals and calls and we never even talk about religion. We are all from different backgrounds. Its been a community and thats what I was trying to find in the church.

Yep - if Church isn't about relationships - there's no point.


I have had many people write me and tell me I am a heretic (YEAH) or sinning by not assembling together with believers??? GO Figure. All my best friends are Christians and all of the people at the bagel church, but that doesn't count I guess!!

I've come to see that verse differently, than as an admonishment to show up in the building every week. I see that Jesus says, "I will build My Church." I see that we are the living stones. So, I see that we are not to forsake how HE assembles us together -- He connects us to others according to His plan and purpose (& for our benefit), and we're to receive those with whom He connects us. Got nothing to do with special buildings, special days, special rituals... got everything to do with our identity as Church.

Just today, we (Lori, of The Marriage Bed, and I) went to (get this!) a bagel deli, to meet with another friend (coincidentally, someone I met online 4 years ago, on The Marriage Bed). We had a great time schmoozing and laughing, and sharing.

Then, Lori and I went to see a new friend, a guy named Skee, who runs a minigolf course (we've all been studying "The Shack" together). We brought him a CD version of George Barna's book "Revolution", and we sat down to chat, about EVERYthing under the sun. Four hours later (!) one of our husbands called, wondering if we were stuck in a ditch somewhere. Nope, we told them, just "having Church."

This is a guy who's been wondering "how to meet outside the religious system" and was thinking it would be tough to find fellowship that way. Case in point, we showed up, and God assembled us together. We all parted, glowing.


But anyway, it opened the door for much healing in my life. In our marriage also. I also now have a desire for my husband. Wasn't always that way. Once God opened up the lies to the abandonment I was feeling, things just totally kept getting better around here:clap2:

Yay, God! He's SO lavish!


You and others may get a kick out of this. I mean no disrespect to any counselor here (ED).
I left the gal I was seeing a month ago. I felt that the healing I needed was fulfilled when I finally realized this. But just for the days when I am a little down I talk to DR. Hope now.
I bought a poster board at target and drew a picture of a woman on one side. Under her picture I put some sentences. 1. Is it true what you are thinking or feeling?
2. can you change, leave or stay in the situation?
3. can you find acceptance on where you are at.?
I place her in my office chair and sit in my rocking chair as we have therapy:clap2: Its much cheaper, and she is a good listener!!!
Anyway, thanks for your honesty and I am so happy in your healing.
Blessings,
Nancy

Thank you, Nancy ... may He continue to lead us all into all healing, by whatever means He chooses...!

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Jotham]

Greetings Dena,
we are almost neighbors : )
My wife and i live on the Oregon coast near Seaside.
We homeschooled our two kids here in Oregon and they are now both serving in the USAirForce. Daughter as a mechanic and son as a civil engineer.

Nest is empty now and we spend most days off rock hounding or 4-wheeling in the mts on the coast range. . . such as the two pix just out of the camera of today's trail run to a secluded lake. Cari drives and i navigate. It's a perfect match.

If u and the family ever venture to the coast drop us an email before hand and we can meet at Ft Stevens (http://www.astoria-usa.com/fort-stevens-state-park.shtml) for a picnic. Kids will love it!!

Have fun here at TG, great place!!

Blessings,
Thom

[Dena]

Greetings Dena,
we are almost neighbors : )

Wow, Thom -- how uber-cool!


My wife and i live on the Oregon coast near Seaside.

We have some friends who have a vacation house in Seaside ... the same friends who are concerned about our "dangerous" new ideas... (UR, at least, though they'd no-doubt be alarmed to hear that Jesus already returned, too!)


We homeschooled our two kids here in Oregon and they are now both serving in the USAirForce. Daughter as a mechanic and son as a civil engineer.

Congratulations! I'm a former army brat (Dad is now a circuit court judge in Yamhill County). Great life, the military.

We homeschooled, and now unschool (having a baby at 45 will do that to a person).


Nest is empty now and we spend most days off rock hounding or 4-wheeling in the mts on the coast range. . . such as the two pix just out of the camera of today's trail run to a secluded lake. Cari drives and i navigate. It's a perfect match.

Sounds like you're having a blast! Our nest won't be empty 'til we're pushing 65 and 66 ... oh well, they say the 60's are the "new 40's".


If u and the family ever venture to the coast drop us an email before hand and we can meet at Ft Stevens (http://www.astoria-usa.com/fort-stevens-state-park.shtml) for a picnic. Kids will love it!!

I'd like to take you up on that! I heard the fort is a wonderful exploration place, and I'd love to delve into the artistic scene in Seaside (I'm a folk artist, who's had to focus on restoring a Victorian for the past 3 years -- can't wait to get back into my art -- and Dallas is NOT an artistic little town -- at least, not *yet*).


Have fun here at TG, great place!!

I'm enjoying it here, and also over at Presnce.

Are you planning on going to Transmillennial 2008? We're set.


Blessings,
Thom

Thanks for the welcome, Thom!

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Jotham]

Dena, thx for the greetings back : )

I might know your Seaside friends that think you've lost it (and your salvation!) They probably said the same thing about us. I was on two local worship teams and well know for my ability to sooth-the-soul with my music (thx the the Lord's gift he gave me in my youth to play woodwinds). There are only two other families i know for sure that have even considered the Lord "Returned" already. Fellowship is thankfully taken care of by time with my soul mate and wife. . . otherwise it would be kind'a lonely in that respect.

No on the Transmillennial 2008, but would if i didn't have priorities/adventures planed in the hills with my sweetheart. We take off nearly every other week on a three day mini-adventure. So we dribble our vacation time (~5 weeks a year + holidays our Costco location is closed) away and keep the stress out of our lives. For us these little adventures, short and sweet, are a welcome addition to the rhythm of life.

Blessings,
Thom

[Dena]

I totally understand, on all accounts, Thom.

Our friends don't live in Seaside, but vacation there, from time to time... they live elsewhere. They're wonderful people, but there are things we just don't see the same.

Shalom, Dena

[Dena]

All in the name of getting to know y'all, I'm sharing something I wrote as the guest editor of a webite last month -- it explains what's behind my fave signature line:

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the unquestioned answers."

This anonymous quote has rather become the background music for my life -- my life's theme, so to speak. I've always been the curious and questioning sort -- I was the "firstborn of two firstborns", and had the attention of a plethora of adults -- all of whom indulged my precocious self. I remember wearing them out at an early age, with my insatiable hunger to KNOW. And to know Truth, with a Capital "T".

I also clearly remember the profound sense of betrayal when I found out, for the first time, that I'd fallen prey to an elaborate ruse: my parents went to inordinate lengths to entice me to believe in the reality of Santa Clause ... we're talking phone calls from Santa, and flour "footprints" through the living room, and being rushed to an upstairs bedroom (being told that the plane lights passing by was his sleigh), and then hearing him on the roof, as my father walked across, hollering "ho-ho-ho." I bought it, hook, line and sinker. And why not? These were my parents, bastions of security, truth and integrity, no?

Now, I've long since forgiven them for the deception, having come to understand a parent's delight in playing make-believe with children, and certainly their motives weren't evil. But, I'll never forget the feeling, deep in my heart, when my 2nd grade best friend illuminated me about the mythology of the jolly old elf. The shock was palpable. My trust was shaken profoundly -- and that sinking, hot feeling of betrayal, of having been duped, would become a familiar one to me, much later in life.

I met Jesus during the heyday of the Jesus movement. It actually "gelled" for me while onstage during a production of "Godspell" -- when the crucifixion and resurrection scenes became real to me. I cried throughout the cast party ("it's ok, Dena, you can stop acting now, the show is over."). Unfortunately, that early, organic and simple relationship with Jesus got quickly transformed into "the show" for real, as the trappings of traditionalism, of institutionalism, and of the doctrines of man took over. The Way of Jesus became less of an organic walk, and more of an organized system. Somewhere along the way, I got caught up in the insidiousness of performance-based spirituality.

I married a guy who was "called" to go through seminary, who got ordained, and who then served in a church for 10 years. We had a slew of children (rounding out at 8 total), and became the proverbial family in a fishbowl, laden with expectations, trapped on the treadmill of "try harder, fail, cover up in shame; try harder, fail, cover up in shame" - ad nauseam.

We were told by those in charge (as we were second-tier), that they (church leadership) were our sanctuary, that they spoke into our lives on behalf of God, that we were not to question authority ("touch not God's anointed") - for that was tantamount to rebellion (this was what earned me the nickname of "Jezebel"), and that we must, as a group, be in agreement -- for submission = 100% agreement, on all points of doctrine and practice. Our very salvation, it was heavily hinted, depended upon it.

We were taught that we were among the few who held to all truth -- that others were deceived, by varying degrees. We were told that our group was among the elite in the Church -- that we were in the line of Apostolic Succession, and others were "church as usual." We were told that those who had left our group were "never really among us," and that they couldn't "go as deep and holy" as we did, and that as long as we submitted completely, and did not ask questions, we would be "safe."

In exchange for this security, we were to do as we were told -- it was likened to the military, in that we should know how to unquestioningly follow orders. Group-think prevailed. Those who defied were dealt with swiftly and harshly -- with direct confrontations, chastisements, withholding of benefits (removal from positions), public shamings, and, if all else failed, official shunning from the group. We were told to never contact those who had left, in shame. As if they were spiritually dangerous, or at the very least were contagious with spiritual cooties. We were given the "official" version of why they had left."

It was inevitable, that my curious nature, and profound hunger for truth, would get me into serious trouble. In fact, I was told that my rebellion (i.e., my questioning) was keeping my husband from advancing up the hierarchical ladder. I would often be pulled aside, and reamed about what a terrible wife, mother, and human being I was; I was told directly, after our 7th child, that we should be sterilized, so that we could have no more children. We defied them, not having peace about doing so -- and when I miscarried two times, they told me point blank, after the second miscarriage, that I had received what I deserved, since I had disobeyed, and they refused to grieve with me. That was the beginning of the end for me, and for our family.

God then healed me, in two areas of my life, rather miraculously, by replacing some lies I didn't even know I believed, with His truth, and I was set free. In that profoundly new place in my life, I gained strength, and saw that what they were doing to us was wrong. We were then catapulted out of that church, and, though we didn't yet realize it, out of institutional Christianity altogether.

God then led us through the wilderness ... we didn't attend any church regularly, as our eyes became open to how much of what went on there was of man, and not of God. We were led to read books on spiritual abuse (which, we discovered, is rampant in the Church), and then on grace (sounded too good to be true at first!), and then books on the emergent church (which got us thinking outside the box), and then, about how some folks had discovered the joy of assembling together organically -- without the structure of the institutional system.

There it was again -- that profoundly gripping sense of betrayal -- that sickening awareness that we'd been duped! I went through all the classic stages of grief - shock, anger, depression, more anger, incredulousness, and finally -- acceptance. We also walked down the painfully exposing pathway of learning to forgive those who had, either intentionally or inadvertently (ultimately known only to God), harmed us.

For the past two years, we've been given the incredible gift of being in "God-ordained relationships" with others -- both face to face and online. We live in community with another family (separate houses next-door, and shared lives), and are in close fellowship with others. We gather in both planned and spontaneous ways -- delving deeply with one another, in encouragement, in joy, in pain, and in challenging one another to see our various blind spots. We've come to experience Church as extended-family, devoid of the squelchedness of the institution. I cannot imagine going back.

I've come to the place where I no longer fear asking questions. I've lost a great deal of my former fear of man, of what others will think or do, due to my questions. I'm far more wary of the danger of swallowing whole what others attempt to spoon feed me. I no longer believe a thing is true, just because it's been repeated, over and over, by a succession of generations. Not even if repeated by people in "authoritative" positions. Not even if repeated convincingly. Not even if repeated so frequently that it "feels" true (for, isn't that the very definition of propaganda?).

I've come to believe that God not only will not strike me dead for questioning "everything," but that He welcomes my questions, with a generous, "come, let us reason together." I now believe that He created my mind to be part of wholistic worship, along with my heart, soul and strength. I now believe that He wants to shake my very foundations -- revealing what is of Him, and what is of man. I've come to believe that Truth is not so much a concept, but a Person - Jesus. And that He invites us to "follow" Him, on a journey for life... into abundant Life. Not to cling to some portion of doctrine, leave the path, and camp out in a parking lot, defending that doctrine against all scrutiny. I believe that I'm meant to hold my doctrines loosely -- as I see that I start with "seeing through glass dimly" and progress onward towards "All Truth" -- and that implies a journey of progressive Truth-unveiling. I believe that while deception must be maintained, truth can withstand all manner of scrutiny. If it's truth, it will stand; if it falls away, then it should.

I imagine that the feeling of "oh no, duped again" is going to remain a familiar one to me, in this life at least. I've come to see that there are all manner of teachings that have been skewed by man over the centuries -- and I've come to believe that Jesus wants us to come into His Truth, as we can. I believe He wants His Church back (for man has hijacked it). I believe He wants His reputation back (for man has besmirched it). I believe He wants us set free from all that would enslave us, including all that is less than His Truth.

May He continue to shake our foundations, and continue to reveal all of who He is to us -- and may we not camp out, clinging to what we think we know, but may we be willing to follow Him into the fullness of Who He is, and who He created us to be.

Shalom,
Dena Brehm

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."

[Barry]

Dena, thanks for sharing this with us. You have spoken from the Mountain top and said what so many can relate too.

Barry

[Dena]

Dena, thanks for sharing this with us. You have spoken from the Mountain top and said what so many can relate too.

Barry

Thanks, Barry.

It's amazing, no, how God can take a girl from in the pits, and bring her to the mountain...?

If it's good, it ain't me, it's God. I too clearly remember how things sounded when *I* was "running" the show...!:eek:

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Paige]

Very moving, Dena. Thx for sharing, and I found myself identifying with so many of the thoughts you've shared from your journey.

Paige

[Dena]

Wasn't sure of where to put this...

A friend of mine, who's coming to see things through a UR perpsective, is reading "Hope Beyond Hell" and wanted my opinion on a few things ... but, in order to answer her, I realized that I had to come to it from a fulfilled theology approach, too. I'd like to share what I wrote, so y'all can tell me whether I'm "getting it" or not (please feel free to tweak, so that I can learn!):

I'm going to share with you what I'm coming to see, and believe (though I hold all things much more loosely than I once did -- grasping ultimate truth is rather like nailing jello to the wall!):

I now consider the ultimate reconciliation message (universalism) to be but a stepping stone to a bigger picture, which also includes the fulfillment-time-line ... (brace yourself) I now believe that Jesus returned in 70AD, and that the judgment and wrath (& choice to "believe and be saved") applied to THAT specific generation of Jews -- the very generation who were destined to usher the Messiah to the rest of the world. Instead, they were insular, self-absorbed, self-righteous, religious, and blind. They missed their very purpose, and selfishly tried to keep the promises of God for themselves and even killed the Messiah. One could not have God without being a Jew, after all...! (sounds like Christians who say one cannot have Jesus without being a Christian ... the very spirit of the Judaizers!).

The gospel was to go forth to the known Judaic world ("all the land" refers to the covenantal world - and Jesus said they would not finish going through the cities of Israel before He returned) ... and Paul says later that it had been done (past tense). Why was it done? So that the Jews, who were under the pending doom of judgment and destruction for rejecting the Messiah, would have the chance to hear the gospel (that the Messiah had come), believe and thus be saved from the disaster to come. It came, just as He said, 40 years later ("some of you standing here will not taste death until you see the Son of God return in His kingdom"), during that generation (His own words). HE linked His return with the destruction (of the AGE, not of the literal planet) that actually happened, right on time, fulfilling all that He foretold (according to Josephus, a secular Jewish historian, and others -- I can send another email that shows how the prophecy in the Olivet Discourse matches up with what Josephus wrote in the Wars of the Jews, about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD).

Notice how when Jesus spoke of "hell" (a bad translation -- the word HE used was Gehenna, the literal town dump, where the bodies of criminals were unceremoniously dumped, and where worms and fires destroyed the flesh), He was always addressing the Jewish leaders -- and not the "sinners." "Who warned YOU of the wrath to come?" "This wicked and perverse generation..." (many times). Interestingly, after Rome destroyed Jerusalem (at a time when the vast majority of the religious Jews were in Jerusalem for the feast of unleavened bread), the Christians were warned to flee, that the time had come, and they ran to the hills to hide out (they were SAVED -- and this is why Jesus had said to pray that it hot happen on the Sabbath, when they couldn't run, and woe to those pregnant and nursing - hard to run that way. And why it makes sense to head for the hills -- which does not make sense if Jesus was foretelling the end of the literal planet).

After 3.5 years of siege (42 months, which fulfills the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, which followed a previous 3.5 years of persecution under Nero, who was nicknamed the "beast" for his brutality), and horrible tribulation, 10,000 Jews crucified around the walls, men women and children brutally raped, women forced to eat their dead babies' bodies, blood running in the streets, a "lake of blood" outside of town, etc., the Romans dumped the dead Jews' bodies into Gehenna, without proper burial, where there was indeed weeping and gnashing of teeth, on the part of the survivors who returned to see the destruction (& this puts a whole new understanding on Isaiah 66:22-24 for me -- which was always a "stuck point" when I had a universalist understanding, but not yet a fulfillment mindset to go with it). (that may have been the longest sentence I ever typed -- don't attempt to diagram it!)

One interesting side-note, in 2 Tiim 2:16-18, Hymenaeus and Philetus were chastised for declaring that the resurrection of the dead (which would occur with Jesus' return, and the end of the age), had already happened. Ok, if Paul (& others of his day) were teaching that the resurrection/parousia/destruction were about the end of the literal planet (as we're taught in our tradition), why would he have to tell them that it hadn't happened? He could say, "look out the window guys -- we're still here -- the planet hasn't been burned up yet." Instead, if he had to reassure them that it hadn't yet occurred, it must be that it was something that were "unobservable" -- just as Jesus had told the disciples about His Kingdom (Luke 17:20-21).

So - we are now living in the new heavens and new earth (it was never a kingdom that could be "observed", as Jesus told His disciples, but a kingdom that is within us - a spiritual reality). In our midst. Invisible, and not "of this world". "Heavens and earth" was a Hebrew phrase that meant "covenant"... we are now in the new covenant, where everyone is born reconciled to God (for God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself), and there is no more judgment or punishment to come ... everyone has access to Him now -- everyone! IOW, we're in the wedding supper of the Lamb, and we're to be experiencing it, and inviting in the others. Some are awake to Him, and others are not yet -- but we're all saved...!

Problem is, we believe lies. People in Christianity believe that only Christians can be saved, and that Jesus hasn't come yet, and that we're under the threat of impending doom (and a destroyed planet - -it was never the case!). People outside of Christianity believe that God hates them, and unless they "make the right choice" (a work!) and clean up their act, God won't accept them (it's been done -- we're all reconciled!). We all think we're in the new covenant, but we talk/act like we're in the old covenant, trying to earn God's favor with our works/choices. As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he... if we believe we're not saved, we'll act as if we're an enemy of God. If we believe this world is going to be destroyed (along with the vast majority of people we see), we will trash the planet, abuse it, and despise "God's enemies"!

The Gospel is NOT "make the right decision for Christ, and join the club!" The Gospel is: "You are reconciled to God. You are accepted and loved by God NOW, you always have been. You're free to live in His presence and enjoy Him NOW -- and He will transform you from the inside out, by renewing your mind, replacing lies with truth!" There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus... and since He returned again, in 70AD, bringing salvation to all, (which was always the plan!), everyone is in Christ Jesus...!

We don't access His presence, in the tangible way He promised, because we don't believe He returned and is HERE...!

Am I blowing you away, or are you seeing this, *****...? Is He whispering these same things into your heart? Does it feel true to your heart, even as your head is saying, "wait-a-minute!"? I know -- this raises more questions than it answers (at least at first) -- believe me, I've been wrestling with this for months now, thinking it "too good to be true"... but it makes the scriptures fall into place, and makes them make sense, whereas before, with the traditional understanding, there were too many passages I had to either dismiss, or gloss over.

Any thoughts?

If you're interested, check these out:

www.pantelism.com
www.presence.tv

(they each have a great discussion forum, where I've been asking LOADS of questions!)

This changes EVERYTHING...!

(Oh, and Mark's better ... since finding out that it was a lie that he was in danger, hearing the truth that these PVC's are benign, they've become less frequent ... as a result of his lowered anxiety ... as a man thinketh, so is he!)

Shalom, Dena

"The unanswered questions aren't nearly as dangerous as the
unquestioned answers."

"We turn to God for help when our foundations are shaking only to
learn that it is God shaking them." - Charles West

"Naked is having no clothes on. Nekkid is having no clothes on and
being up to something."

"Our truth, when it becomes the ONLY truth, ceases to be truth."

"While we're not fearful of tasting new things, we don't necessarily
swallow all that we taste."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Me Again]

Dena,
I wouldn't change a thing - although in my position, I find that Solomon fits the Beast better than Nero. Allow me to explain:

Solomon's yearly tribute was 666 talents of gold.
He was presumed to be David's heir, where we now know that it was Jesus who was the true heir.
Solomon's "Mark" was circumcision - which although ordained of God had become an idol like the Temple.

I know that this leaves a lot of the old antichrist stuff out of the equation, but I'm not convinced that everything we attribute to "the antichrist" was really referring to the Beast anyway.

Personally, I think you have articulated this well...as I've tried to say in other posts, it's a dynamic theory, one that allows quite a bit of latitude in belief.

[Dena]

It's been a while since I chimed in here ... not sure why as I enjoy it here, and miss the people!

Been preoccupied elsewhre, but wanting to get reconnected ... so, Hi Y'all!