View Full Version : Advice?
Here I am invading y'alls forum again!! LOL!
I know that most, if not all, of you are past this point of view, but I thought that as men, you might offer some advice or insight for me - and maybe some other women who are interested in the answer (am I the queen of run-on sentences or what!).
How do you think I should interact with men who feel that they are superior? Typically, I have as short a conversation as possible because, as I often say, it's hard to have a horizontal conversation with condescension.
Is that the best approach though in your opinion?
Thanks ahead,
Amie
Barry
04-11-2006, 08:09 PM
Is it worth your time and effort sis?
Typically speaking, any reaction you have [even if identical to that which another guy would typically recipicate when on the butt end of condescending tone], is going to be twisted and used against you simply because your gender difference.
Any guy who is condescending toward you I would out right tell "If that is your attitude then you are not worth my time and effort".
Sorry, a bit feisty tonight LOL.
Barry
Amie you are probably handling it right. That type usually doesn’t limit that behavior only to women they act the same toward men that they think they are superior to. There is an example of that I really like in the bible.
1 Samuel 17:28 And his eldest brother Eliab heard when he spoke to the men. And Eliab's anger glowed against David. And he said: Why is it you have come down? And with whom have you left those few sheep in the wilderness? I know your pride and the evil of your heart: for you have come down to see the battle.
Barry
04-11-2006, 08:23 PM
Amie you are probably handling it right. That type usually doesn’t limit that behavior only to women they act the same toward men that they think they are superior to. There is an example of that I really like in the bible.
1 Samuel 17:28 And his eldest brother Eliab heard when he spoke to the men. And Eliab's anger glowed against David. And he said: Why is it you have come down? And with whom have you left those few sheep in the wilderness? I know your pride and the evil of your heart: for you have come down to see the battle.
Lou that is really good and nice. Maybe I should edit mine?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
"I know your pride and the evil of your heart" -- yes Lou, usually what we think we see in others, and consequently react to, is in fact our own failings.
Amie, I'm inclined to agree with the boys above -- how important is your time and can you afford to waste it on certain individuals?
The next time someone responds to you in condescension simply ask them "did that meet your need?" :D
I tried to think of something profound to say in thanks, but can't conceive of anything better than "thank you".
Amie
Barry
04-12-2006, 09:29 AM
I tried to think of something profound to say in thanks, but can't conceive of anything better than "thank you".
Amie
Amie, there is IMHO a connect between the creation of Man in two parts, male and female (in the image of God) and the union of equality through Christ where there cannot be male and female in intrinsic value and equality.
There is something IMHO very profound indeed in seeing the outworking of peace between the genders as relating to the peace that is on earth in general.
It is more than that one is indicative of the other it is that they are tied together in the same cosmic plain of reality.
I had way too much coffee this morning, LOL.
love you, Barry
There is something IMHO very profound indeed in seeing the outworking of peace between the genders as relating to the peace that is on earth in general.
Yep, it will be nice when we are all "playing nicely in the sandbox together". I think we will accomplish the unimaginable!
It is more than that one is indicative of the other it is that they are tied together in the same cosmic plain of reality.
Isn't that strange? To be so beautifully different, and yet so very connected?
Amie
Barry
04-12-2006, 10:44 AM
Exactly!
Barry
ozark
04-12-2006, 12:06 PM
At the same time, I think there are those who seem to test our belief in grace. We all have them, and I think God makes sure we do. Those who abuse us can teach us a lot about the kingdom if we will take time to listen. Believe it or not, we are not better off without them.
Doug,
I think that I (and maybe "we") would be better off without the abuse, but not better off without those who differ and disagree.
Or are we saying the same thing, lol!
Amie
ozark
04-12-2006, 02:33 PM
Well, yes and no. What are our enemies there for? Do they serve no purpose other than to annoy us? What can you learn from that man who looks down upon you? Looking down upon him in return misses the point.
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
I think there is still an application of this passage in a post Parousia world. Our enemies are many times an opportunity to see more of the kingdom. If we hate them back, we miss the show. If we see them as beloved even though they don’t see us as such, haven’t we gained the kingdom in a deeper way?
Good point Doug,
I was looking more at my inability to demonstrate the Kingdom to them, rather than looking at my gains.
Amie
ozark
04-12-2006, 04:27 PM
Grace is not for sissies, contrary to popular belief. ;)
I know that most, if not all, of you are past this point of view, but I thought that as men, you might offer some advice or insight for me - and maybe some other women who are interested in the answer (am I the queen of run-on sentences or what!).
How do you think I should interact with men who feel that they are superior? Typically, I have as short a conversation as possible because, as I often say, it's hard to have a horizontal conversation with condescension.
Is that the best approach though in your opinion?
Amie,
As a general rule, nervous women giggle. To us men, those women seem silly, especially when the situation is serious. You have to expect most men to misread such things.
If the man has what you believe is a condescending tone, you are probably misreading him. Any action you take would likely be as serious an error as it is for a man to act on the assumption that a giggling woman is silly.
Men also tend to look at other men's mouths rather than eyes. If a man is looking at your mouth as you speak, you will again be making a serious mistake to assume he's being condescending.
If on the other hand, the man is looking at your chest instead of your face, and you feel that is unwarranted, may I recommend you take one of two actions. 1) If you really dislike the jerk, say something clever like, "yoo-hoo, I'm up here." He won't do that again, but he also might never speak to you again. Or 2) make a gesture by placing your hand, palm up, at the level of your bosom, and pretend to lift his gaze up to yours. It's a little more subtle, too subtle for some men, but if it works, it's a better tactic.
JL
hahaha JL,
Thanks for the feedback :). I wouldn't call myself a giggler really, so that probably wouldn't be an issue for me.
I'm not sure that my response would be so grace-filled if a man were staring at my bosom rather than my face while we are supposedly talking.
My experiences have been men expecting to go first, be considered first, seriously assume I'm a bad driver, and most importantly, dismiss my theological opinion because I am "easily beguiled".. Oy on that one.
I realize more and more though, that I actually condescend to men that I think are condescending to me. I'm working on that for sure. There are definately obvious moments, but like you said, I could be misreading them.
Amie
I realize more and more though, that I actually condescend to men that I think are condescending to me.
Irrespective of gender -- when someone is being condescending to me I just let them -- knowing full well that that is just meeting some deficient need of theirs. Although occasionally if I'm feeling a bit mischievous I might venture to ask: "did that meet your needs?" :eek: :biglaugha:
..when someone is being condescending to me I just let them..
Like Doug said "Grace is not for sissies", hehe.
Although occasionally if I'm feeling a bit mischievous I might venture to ask: "did that meet your needs?"
Lol! More and more I realize that correcting anyone, even when they're wrong, is about meeting my needs... unless their being wrong is dangerous or something.
Amie
My experiences have been men expecting to go first, be considered first, seriously assume I'm a bad driver, and most importantly, dismiss my theological opinion because I am "easily beguiled".. Oy on that one.
Amie,
Men tend to do that to each other also. At least until a "pecking order" is established. So some of your complaints are really because you don't like men treating you like a man. We really are different. No man would complain about that sort of treatment. We expect it.
As for assuming you're a bad driver, I think that's another misread. No matter how good a driver a woman is, her husband would just rather drive. No matter how good a driver the other guy is, I'd just rather drive.
As for your opinion, most men will dismiss it because they disagree. They'll dismiss my opinion or Ed's, or any of the other guys here just as quickly. It has nothing to do with your sex.
The only reason you call him on it is because of your sex. Women play by different rules. The man does what he does. The woman complains that the man is not a woman. The man then lies (mainly to himself) because he doesn't want to actually think through his actions. He should say, "I'm treating you like a man. You are complaining because you are a woman and don't like being treated like a man." Instead, he says, "I'm doing this because you're a woman." 60% fewer words is also an advantage.
JL
The examples that you quoted were things men have told me first hand. It is the opinion of some - not of my husband :).
The only reason you call him on it is because of your sex.
Naa, when a man says it to me, I usually respond. I am frequently verbally reminded of my secondary position as per the dogmatic view that women are more easily fooled. You're right that people regardless of sex disagree with one another. It just so happens that many Christian men pull that "trump card" to establish that pecking order you mentioned.
Your point though about women treating men like women, and men treating women like men might be a good one. We are different after all. Are you familiar with John Gray? I remember one thing he pointed out: Women offer a lot of detail when making a point, where a man is more direct. The man might think he is hurrying things along by even saying "Get to the point". In reality the woman now has another issue to tackle along with the original point that she was trying to make. His effort at hurrying things, just made them take longer, lol!
I wonder how much of what he says is true. It would be interesting to explore what our differences actually are, as opposed to what society imposes upon us.
Amie
Amie,
If men were truly that condescending to women (rather than to everybody), then this http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060612/ap_en_ce/esquire_survey would be difficult to explain.
JL
JL,
You may have missed my comment before this one. I am not asserting that all men are condescending to women by any means - else who will I have been asking advice from, ya know?
I have experienced the condescending attitude and remarks first hand, and know that it is true that some do. In my experience, it is mostly religious men.
Amie
I wonder how much of what he says is true. It would be interesting to explore what our differences actually are, as opposed to what society imposes upon us.
Yes, it often seems to me that the details my wife and daughters put in are the point.
As for attempts to put you in your place and establish a pecking order. The man has to have a pecking order set up. He needs to be as high in it as possible. (Women do the same thing, but by different means.) If he can pull a trump card and place himself above you, it saves a lot of work.
I make physicians call me Doctor.
I stand over little guys and physically remind them I'm bigger. I'm not allowed to do the same to women. They would see that as a threat to their physcal safety. Since the rules require me to treat women differently in that one respect, it seems only fair for me to substitute some other means of imposing myself. I'm not allowed to say, I'm more important because I'm bigger, so I'll just change it to something that means the same but is "carefully" coded. I'm more important because you're a woman.
Here's a blond joke.
Three construction workers are sitting 40 stories up. Juan opens his lunch pail and says "Burritos again? If I get another burrito, I'm going to jump." Ian opens his pail and says, "Corned beef again? If I get another corned beef sandwich, I'm going to jump." Jan (pronounced "yawn") opens his pail and says, "Bratwurst again? If I get another bratwurst, I'm going to jump."
The next day, the evening news reports, "3 construction workers jump to their deaths."
The three crying widows meet at the funeral. "I thought Juan liked burritos. If he'd only told me, I would have made something else." "Ian was in the kitchen eating breakfast, while I made his lunch. Why didn't he say something?" "Jan made his own lunch."
Now for the difference between men and women. (Any one who is humor deprived, please stop reading now.)
At about 10 weeks after conception, baby boys start producing testosterone. The burst of it actually severs about 80% of the nerves connecting different parts of the brain, especially between the two hemispheres. In response to this, the boys brain puts about twice as many connections in each part of the brain. The end result is each part of the boys brain has about twice as much processing power as an equivalent part of the girls brain. However, no two parts of the boys brain can communicate with each other.
Because of this fundamental difference, we can conclude two things.
1) No woman has any right to expect her husband to "communicate" with her. He's not even capable of communicating with himself inside his own head.
2) It has been scientifically demonstrated that all women are scatterbrains and all men are halfwits.
Applying conclusion #2 to the discussion above. When trying to establish a position, all men will conclude that halfwits are superior to scatterbrains and some women will agree and accept the lower position in the pecking order, while other women will conclude the opposite. Those women who accept, can now join the discussion. Those who don't, present a problem. We can't take them outside and settle our differences the only way halfwits know how, like men.
JL
JL,
You may have missed my comment before this one. I am not asserting that all men are condescending to women by any means - else who will I have been asking advice from, ya know?
I have experienced the condescending attitude and remarks first hand, and know that it is true that some do. In my experience, it is mostly religious men.
Amie
All men are condescending to everyone until a pecking order is established. If Ed and I have problems establishing a pecking order, we can go outside and settle it. If you and I have problems establishing a pecking order, that option is not allowed. One of us has to voluntarily submit. I'm not allowed to force you to submit and you aren't big enough to make me submit. It has nothing to do with being religious.
Your example is merely one where the man is using the Bible in an attempt to get you to submit to him.
JL
Paige
06-15-2006, 03:09 PM
"Jan made his own lunch."
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Here I am interrupting...
I asked Dave about this and he says that in his experience, men do establish a pecking order amongst themselves. (I'm really interested in how women do the same thing, I might add.)
It seems that for those who want to use the bible to make you submit, you just have to decide how important this is for you to continue dialogue (back to the beginning of the thread with Lou, davo, Barry's comments). I imagine that this is exactly what men have to do when faced with a pastor or elders who are doing the same to them. At some point, if there is disagreement, a separation may occur. This is what happens to many who have to leave churches over doctrinal differences. There isn't a pastor out there who is going to get anywhere with me or my husband by pulling out his "credentials" in order to get us "back in line" with whatever doctrine he is pushing (if we see it differently from scripture). He may believe the bible has given him the authority to do what he is doing, but he is only going to be able to take it as far as the people around him let him.
I'll take my leave of this thread now, ;)
Paige
I'm really interested in how women do the same thing, I might add.
Paige,
There was an article in the local newspaper on that subject. It was written by a woman. I assumed she knew what she was talking about.
Think about Junior High. You knew your place then. How did you girls determine your pecking order when you were 12? I certain it was pretty ugly in it's own way.
JL
I took a day and put on my "pecking order is true" hat. My emotional response was a "nuh-uhhh" so I wanted to take some time with it. After all, here are you guys in the guy forum telling me like it is from a guy's point of view.
Like Paige, I asked my hubby (Bryan) about it. He said that is "absolutely" accurate. I went on to ask him (and would like your thoughts if you wanna share 'em) how much of that is basically "nature" vs how much is "environmental bs". He said that he thinks it's a mixture. I brought up the self-assured fella who walks in the room with nothing to prove and he pointed out that even that, earns that guy a place.
My son is 5'7 and is 13. He was pretty overweight as well - that has been changing. Either way, because of his height he is a big boy. The other boys tend to try and establish themselves with him first. I guess if you can conquer the big boys, then you can conquer anyone. In an analogy, my son sees himself as a "golden retriever" while the other boys are "chihuahuas" (we own both). While the chihuahuas bark loud, hopping around him, he sits calmly in the grass. I guess that would be the self-assured fella, right? I happen to know my son, and I know that while he sits calmly, he still establishes his place #1 by sitting there, and "B" (hahaha!) with intellect.
He and the little boys that I've seen him around have been doing the pecking order thing since about age 2 when the strongest willed one ended up with the best toys. I still wonder if this was nature or environment because I know that some boys were/are much more aggressive than others.
So okay, I get it now - kind of.
Then, I considered JL's question: "How did you girls determine your pecking order when you were 12?"
The "pecking order" began way before that for me, lol - and for my daughter and her playmates. At 12 though, the deepest line in the sand was drawn by how far along you were growing into a woman and how many boys attention you gained through it. Yep, it was ugly.
I am still working on recognizing it in grown women.. that's probably better left for the gal's thread though :).
Amie
Like Paige, I asked my hubby (Bryan) about it. He said that is "absolutely" accurate. I went on to ask him (and would like your thoughts if you wanna share 'em) how much of that is basically "nature" vs how much is "environmental bs". He said that he thinks it's a mixture. I brought up the self-assured fella who walks in the room with nothing to prove and he pointed out that even that, earns that guy a place.
I'd say the "need" is all nature. How it's implemented is becomes more and more environment as we get older and more sophisticated. A 3-year-old boy would have no qualms about "taking" a 3-year-old girl "outside" to settle the issue like "men" if he thought he could win. In fact, he won't even wait to get outside. By age 12, that's changed. By age 24, the actual violence is gone from the process, but implied threats still persist. Also other means of establishing a pecking order develop. Brains don't count for anything in the process when you're 12, but count quite a bit at 47. So does character, skill, and financial status. And it gets more complicated.
When my son, the big-dog, was 11 and 12, he had to drop a couple of "chihuahuas" on their heads to knock some sense into them.
One of the great benefits of home-schooling is not that it removes this "need," but that the children don't learn to be peer dependent. They are almost immune to peer preasure and won't seek to do destructive things to improve their standing. This also means they rank people much more like adults do. This had a tremendous unexpected side benefit. My teens were accepted by adults as adults and peers giving them an 8-year jump on the other teens in developing their true ranking in the pecking-order.
JL
Paige
06-16-2006, 02:00 PM
Think about Junior High. You knew your place then. How did you girls determine your pecking order when you were 12? I certain it was pretty ugly in it's own way.
Junior High was one of the lowest points in my life. I was gawky and gangly and nowhere near developing into womanhood (a classic late bloomer). I think the closest I've ever come to true depression was during that period of my life. I consider my moms permission to put me in a very small, private school, one of the best parenting decisions she ever made for me (and getting me braces, lol).
Yes, teenage female aggression is IMO, much more damaging than male. (Of course, that might be female bias speaking.)
Paige
Jotham
11-22-2007, 12:39 AM
...
Men also tend to look at other men's mouths rather than eyes. If a man is looking at your mouth as you speak, you will again be making a serious mistake to assume he's being condescending...
OK riddle me this. I thought i was the only one that liked to look at a woman's mouth when she speaks (I've never looked at a man's). . . so what's up with that? Sometimes i know i do it due to background noise being out of control and i can get more of the conversation by reading her lips, but maybe there is more to it than that? Silly boy.
Then there is this tid bit:
...As for assuming you're a bad driver, I think that's another misread. No matter how good a driver a woman is, her husband would just rather drive. No matter how good a driver the other guy is, I'd just rather drive...Tell me there is a man in the house that enjoys seeing their wife drive (she luvs to drive!) and that he also enjoys playing with all the GPS gadgets while she drives? Please say there's another amongst us!
Cheers,
Thom
Paige
11-22-2007, 09:04 AM
Thom,
My husband is not reading this, but if he were, trust me, he has reached a point in his life where he would just rather have me drive most of the time. Why? He spends 40+ hours behind the wheel of his patrol car every week. After that, he is frankly sick of driving...
Paige
Tell me there is a man in the house that enjoys seeing their wife drive (she luvs to drive!) and that he also enjoys playing with all the GPS gadgets while she drives? Please say there's another amongst us!
Thom,
I don't have a GPS in any of my cars. If I did, things might be different.
We've done a fair amount of long-distance driving. On our recent trips to Fresno (5 hours plus traffic, the first 80 miles is always heavy), I start, and she drives a while when I get tired. This is right about when we pull up to Grandma's house.
In very few cars do I see a woman driving and a man in the passenger seat.
JL
Jotham
11-22-2007, 01:27 PM
Paige and JL, thx for the kind replies. Fun observations.
Part of my reasonings for letting Cari drive is that we primarily drive long distances in our ToyTacoma (http://accrete.com/p-tgl/taco/index.htm) and it happens to also be her daily driver. I drive a ToyEcho. The Taco is our pleasure wagon (hehe) when we go camping and goldpanning. She is one awesome off roader as i might have mentioned elsewhere. She can hill climb with the best of the regular Joe's so i have no issue being coPilot. She would regularly lead the trail in our ToyFJ40 club up our part of the Rubicon Trail in Lake Tahoe area, and the "boys" were happy to yield and let her blaze the trail. Quite frankly the guys get a kick out of it and High-Five me on having such an outstanding driver of a wife.
So for me i suppose my Ego is involved a bit, as i luv to see my wife have a great day and get kudos from the buoys and gulls in the 4WD clubs. grin.
Thom
Jotham
11-23-2007, 09:42 AM
Paige your observation and situation is so familiar! I've got two workmates who's fathers are state troopers. Both of these coworkers mom's drive the car and their father's are coPilots during their off hours.
: ) Thom
I prefer for my husband to drive 97% of the time. The other 3% when I want to drive? Move over! :D Tami
Amie, Wanted to add my own pov, although I know I've jumped in very late.
Personally, I've spent so much time in subverviance(is that a word?) :) to men in the religious world, that right now at this time of my life, I really don't have the time for it.
I know they condescend to me because of their teachings. I KNOW it is not a matter of my imagination or simple differences between men and women. I know what they've been taught and how seriously they take it. And I really just will not take the time for it. There are even times when a man may approach me with his religious rant(or even a woman for that matter) and the best thing for me to do is to simply walk away. They may interpret it as me being condescending...it isn't true, but I'm not gonna worry over how they interpret my boundaries.
Thankfully, I don't have to deal with these sorts of issues with my husband at all.
I'm thinking the answer for each person in how to deal with these situations is going to be as varied as each individual is varied.
Eenyway, that's my very LATE pov. :) Tami
Me Again
12-03-2007, 06:01 AM
I love driving. My wife hates it. 'nuff said.
ed
Jason Hall
05-29-2008, 01:17 PM
For the original posed question:
Why should we be bothered anymore by other people's attitude? Doesn't love transend others' attitudes? Can't we show God by acting courteous and kind toward those that will not show it to us? Didn't Jesus say even the worldly man loves those that love him, but we are to love those that hate us?
Not that I'd call a condescending tone hateful. I find myself doing it sometimes, when others don't seem to grasp the simple things I'm trying to say. But then I realize that I am charged to be a servant, and therefor must show patience and kindness rather than be quick to anger.
I think my point is that, if we, those that realize God loves us, cannot stand the hit to our pride that someone else may even unintentionally deliver, then how can we possible be helping others to the realization of his love?
As for the car thing...my wife says I make her nervious when I'm in the car, so she doesn't like to drive. And I get nerious due to the spedding tickets she used to get (long ago...but still, insurance is high enough).
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