Pacifism: "Is it true?"

[Amie]

Did Jesus really do nothing when he "turned the other cheek"?

Did Stephen really do nothing by allowing himself to be stoned to death?

Did the church do nothing in allowing themselves to become martyrs?

Does "loving our enemy" (unconditional love) mean "allowing and enabling our enemy"?

Does it (unconditional love) mean allowing and enabling our friends for that matter?

Looking forward to your thoughts..

Amie

[Paige]

This is a good topic. I have had tons of questions on these matters (in fact, way more questions than answers). I'd love to hear what people are thinking.

The only strong opinion I have regarding your questions are. 1. Loving my enemy does not mean allowing them to kill me (if its in my power to stop it) or allowing them to kill my neighbor (again, if its in my power to prevent it). 2. I think the same goes for those we consider friends.

Paige

[Barry]

Amie the answer is both yes and no imho LOL!
These first-fruits could not resist in view of what they were fulfilling.

When Jesus said Moses told you this "but I say to you" he is interpreting in a sense but IMO what he is also saying "we are entering into the time of fulfilling this stuff and I have authority to declare what is not necessary for that fulfillment to take place".
Had the first-fruits not suffered for the sake of the coming kingdom there would be no fulfillment.
Even in view of this the disciples carried swords.
There lack of response from the first-fruits said something about the judgment that was going to come upon the persecutors in the end of the age. It said that they were not a political agenda organization. There agenda was eschatological end and age transition.

On the greater scale there were involved in the saving of all who persecuted them. They loved these folks even their enemies to want them to be saved through age transformation. To resist the enemy would be detrimental to the enemy.

In view of this then the question is how do we presently apply unconditional love? We know in general how they needed to apply it then in their task at hand. We do not have that task.
So then how do we apply love ethically?
This is my view at present and needs more time to write down. LOL
But in short the ethical consideration is equality liberty and common brotherhood.
In short my view is go the extra mile to manfest that brotherhood. Defend with words and protest and other means whenever possible.
It would be unfortunate (for them) if another would by his or her own choices give me no other alternatives but to protect those who are in my charge.
Barry
PS. Man was not made for pacifism but pacifism for man.

[Lauri]

Amie and all,
Those are really tough questions and I don't think there is a black and white, yes or no answer to them. We have seen how well revenge killing, an eye for an eye type of attitude is working in the middle east. It never ends, once started there is always going to be revenge to be sought. I liked what Barry said. I hope unconditional love would cause us to seek EVERY other possible solution before harming someone else in return.

Lauri

[Amie]

Had the first-fruits not suffered for the sake of the coming kingdom there would be no fulfillment.

Exactly, they were therefore hardly pacifists by my understanding.


On the greater scale there were involved in the saving of all who persecuted them.

I think this is an example of true justice. Though we wouldn't advocate their rulership in standing between humanity and God, justice is not seeing them fry for their shortcomings.


But in short the ethical consideration is equality liberty and common brotherhood.

And paradoxically enough, seeing no part of "brotherhood" (sheesh, lol) as common.


It would be unfortunate (for them) if another would by his or her own choices give me no other alternatives but to protect those who are in my charge.

I read that in your movie and comic books: "Don't make me angry, you won't like me when I'm angry."

HAHAHA!


1. Loving my enemy does not mean allowing them to kill me (if its in my power to stop it) or allowing them to kill my neighbor (again, if its in my power to prevent it). 2. I think the same goes for those we consider friends.

Agreed. I question whether or not enabling and allowing is truly loving them to begin with. I think that it is extremely important to view these things while consciously in "our business". We are not actually trying to control their actions, but to protect ourselves iow.


I liked what Barry said. I hope unconditional love would cause us to seek EVERY other possible solution before harming someone else in return.

I think that again comes back to how we define justice. Would we truly wish those we dislike and disagree with to burn in hell, or be tortured in this life.. or do we pray that they know God's love and come to him before they suffer or cause any more harm? Even further, do we pray that they know the love of God from a distance, or do we demonstrate it? (I think that depends upon personal safety and ability)


All --

We sure don't have to hate or resent those who really do wrong (terrorists ie) to take action. We aren't standing by and allowing things because we aren't leading a revolt (just like Jesus). We have choices. We can "storm the castle", withdrawl and do nothing, or respond creatively with a clear head.

Amie

[kevinbeck]

I am very interested inthe subject of justice--if we can call justie a "subject." I'm wondering if there is such a thing at all, or if it is a meagre attempt to try to implement a sense of order on what we perceive to be chaos?

On the suffering of the firstfruits, have you considered God's conversation with Eve (the mother of all living) in Genesis 3 and her suffering pain in childbirth?

Blessings

[Amie]

I am very interested inthe subject of justice--if we can call justie a "subject." I'm wondering if there is such a thing at all, or if it is a meagre attempt to try to implement a sense of order on what we perceive to be chaos?

Justice seems like an ideal that gives our mind peace (Did you just say that?). It's the dot at the other end of the line. How we define justice, imo, can effect how we see and treat one another as we travel on the line itself.


On the suffering of the firstfruits, have you considered God's conversation with Eve (the mother of all living) in Genesis 3 and her suffering pain in childbirth?

Matthew 24:8 and Mark 13:8 describe "nation rising against nation", "famines", "plagues" and "earthquakes" as "the beginnings of sorrows" (KJV). He tells the disciples that they would be delivered up and beaten so that they might testify before governors and Kings.. but the "time is not yet", not until they see the "abomination of desolation".
"Sorrows" (you probably know this already, heh) is translated from "odin", and "odin" is literally "labor pains".

I can totally connect with the prophecy because I was in labor for three days with my son. The doctors thought it was false labor and that I was overreacting to the pain because I wasn't dialating. They sent me home with a list of things to expect when the time had actually come, telling me "but the time is not yet". It turned out that they were wrong, things just weren't working right (I had to have him via c-section). The phrase "not yet" as I pained is burned into my memory though!

Had they not suffer, life would not have entered into this world. If anyone has any experience with the stresses and pains of a child coming into the world, they know that they didn't do nothing by "enduring til the end".

Amie

[Lauri]

I think the problem with justice lies in that everyones sense of justice is different depending on which side of the fence you stand. Depending on weather you are the victim or the friends and family of the alleged perpetrator. Depending on weather you are a Jew or a Palistenian. I think it would be helpful if instead of reacting to the percieved injustice, we could take a step back and ask ourselves what made this person so desperate that they thought the only recourse they had was to blow themselves up , or what kind of hell has a person gone through in their life to drive them to commit a horrible crime, and what if anything can we do to restore a sense of justice in their life.

Lauri

[Amie]

Lauri,

I think maybe those who blew up the Twin Towers had a sense of justice. They didn't feel that the people in those building belonged on the planet. They felt that killing them is justice.

I agree that empathy (considering what they've been through and experienced as people) is extremely important in how we deal with them.

Though Christians don't go through with it any more, many of them feel that justice is those who disagree with them frying eternally or leaving existance altogether.

They want it in their heart (many can't wait to take up arms in "the end"), and they 'justify' it.

How are their senses of justice different than the bombers other than one will wait for God to do it for them? Harsh.

You may have already been saying this in different words, but perhaps the answer is to rethink the definition of "justice". Do you think that perspective would still matter if "justice" is "knowing love" ie?

I think that it may, but I'm not sure about every case. "Love" can potentially become subjective. What do you think?

Amie

[Lauri]

Amie,
I think maybe the answer to justice is forgiveness. I think that justice continues to perpetuate. When one person extracts justice from another that causes the other person to want their own justice and so on with a never ending cycle. I think forgiveness can stop that cycle and begin healing.
Like Dr. Phil says, "someone needs to step up and be the hero". I know that sounds terribley naive and simplistic for something as big and complex as the bombing of the twin towers, but I don't see how we as a country hunting down and killing or going to war with those who were behind it as the answer either. Again like Dr. Phil would say, "How's that working for ya?"

I know you had injustice perpetrated on you as a child and were able to forgive those who were responsible. You certainly had the right to seek justice but do you feel that would have helped you or them heal more than forgiveness did?

Most of us would say we can't just forgive criminals and let them roam free to commit more crimes. Christians say if God just forgives everybody with no consequences then everyone would just run amok sinning at every whim. Like Paige said I too have a lot more questions than answers on this topic.

This is a good topic to chew on and discuss. I think we as a nation, Christians, just plain people need to chew on it and discuss it a whole lot more. Thanks for starting this thread.

Lauri

[Barry]

IMHO, justice and forgiveness are concepts of accountability. Accountability has ceased. Accountability is indicative of the old age relationship order (cosmos).
There are lessons to be learned and consequences to be endured but there are no prices to be paid or debt incurred in the purity of relationship as it now stands.
When we say, "I forgive you" what exactly are we saying or doing?
If someone took $500.00 from me and "I say I forgive you" what have we said?
Did we say "You don't need to pay be back"? But we could say,"You don't need to pay be back" and still desire ill to come upon them for this thing.

Did we say "You hurt me by doing that."? But we could say, "I have put the hurt behind me but I still need the money."

"In whom we have the forgiveness of sins" Paul said. Do we still have the forgiveness of sins? Is God still forgiving? Or is our relationship and his discipline now framed in another type of relationship?

Was Adam in relationship with God prior to eating of the forbidden fruit? Was he being forgiven? Was there justice?

What is justice? What is forgiveness?

JMO
Barry

[kevinbeck]

Barry,
Great question you pose, bro.

Is 'justice' just a guise for revenge? How can can anyone "unring the bell"?

And with forgiveness, naming the offense is en essential ingredient. I can't forgive my offender without naming the offense. So, in the NC God remembers sin no more. The offense (singular) has been forgiven. Is the possibility of offense, then, taken away?

Kevin

[Barry]

Kevin, I think that "fulfillment" puts us in a poisson where we can now question.
When everything was all "set in stone" (LOL I made a funny), and everything was nicely packaged for us we still had lots of questions. The packaging that we had however structured those questions so that we could not ask much that would deviate from the packaging.

When I was 24 and a C of C missionary in the caribbean I would take long walks across the mountains of the rain forest of Guadeloupe and ask questions. At 46 now it has been a life of questions (I just can't walk 40K anymore LOL).
The difference is now they don't scare me. There is a growing realization that life is more than about being right. There is perhaps sometimes more truth in the question than in the answer. The question often touches on more information than a single answer.

I think that many of us have very strong feelings about many atrocities that have happened and that do happen and that are fresh in our minds. I would not wish to diminish the importance of those feelings. Nor underestimate the terrible emotion scaring that can and does take place in this life.

There is however a larger training ground here a way in which most or all of us have been taught to relate from our youth. We have all been taught to think in terms of penalties and payments and such.
Never before have I questioned this "education" more than I do now. It is not solving our problems as I see it. Is it possible to step back from justice and try and solve problems?
What mentality will bring sociological healing to us, locally, nationally and globally?

What does common brotherhood mean and how do we live it?
Barry

[Amie]

I wrote this yesterday and didn't get to post it since things were down for a bit - weird!


I know you had injustice perpetrated on you as a child and were able to forgive those who were responsible. You certainly had the right to seek justice but do you feel that would have helped you or them heal more than forgiveness did?

That forgiveness was not about relinquishing them of accountability, but relinquishing myself of the pain that I carried with me. It was like they hurt me, and I kept carrying the torch for them.

They are not in my life and I consider that a consequence of their choice (and continuing choices). The statute of limitations was up for me to press charges by the time I stopped blaming myself. I was unable to send anyone to jail, but I didn't do nothing. I broke the cycle for me and my family.


Most of us would say we can't just forgive criminals and let them roam free to commit more crimes.

I think that the difference here is that we are in "our business". I don't think we cast aside protection for self and others, I think that we do cast aside efforts at controlling what choices other people are making.

I like your Dr Phil references and agree, lol!


IMHO, justice and forgiveness are concepts of accountability.

I think that they commonly are, but don't have to be. We can be healed from negative feelings that we harbor for a person, and maybe even feel love for them - and still support consequence for harmful choices.

Why can't justice and forgiveness put on a new face? They have in my mind.

Amie

[Amie]

Is the possibility of offense, then, taken away?

Yes, I think so. I think that the potential for one person to do harm to another is something that is played out daily though.

Amie

[backtothefuture]

I haven't come up with a definition of Justice yet. I do know in my own life it was forgiveness that turned the corner for me. It didn't happen over night. Happened while I was sitting in pain and asking God so many questions. But when it happened, I was ready and it was real.
I have heard it said that Resentment is, you drinking the cup of poison while waiting for the other person to die.
Thats what UN-forgiveness was for me. My entire body was soaked in poison until I was able to let it go.
So, I do understand a little more about forgiveness, But don't know yet how Justice plays into everything.
Coming out of the back ground I did. I thought for sure, the bad guys would pay in the end. Thats were my self righteousness really came through. Surely if so and so did this, than they would pay now or later. I don't believe that anymore.
Its been so much better to forgive and go forward, Alive and face to face now.
Nancy

[christyG]

Hey guys, great topic!

I would like to add some things that I have learned since reading the book that I have mentioned elsewhere. [I really do not mean to sound like such a head-over-heels fanatic about this book I just finished, but it has made many things clear for me]

The book discusses at length and in several occasions the topics of forgiveness and justice. It is suggested that forgiveness as a whole is a way to define one of many "problems" or "needs" that we people find ourselves in in relationship to God. Other "problems" we have (or conditions we find ourselves in) that are themes of Christianity are: bondage, exile (separation), blindness, sickness, hunger, thirst, sinfulness (as traditionally understood), and death. So under this concept, the need for forgiveness has been met, but IMO it seems to always have been met. We have always been forgiven, but just not always in a place to understand that we are forgiven. Jesus came to show us how we can live if we know and understand that we stand forgiven.

The garden story seems to be a story of how we feel as humans as we grow (come into maturity--not spiritual maturity--but maturity as in intellectually). Thus, at some point in our lives (usually in the toddler years) we come to understand that we are separate from our environment and that we can make decisions that effect our environment. We gain that knowledge of the fruit of the tree of Good and Evil. We then feel guilty for our wrongs and this guilt leaves us feeling cut off (east of Eden) and out of God's presence, guidance and love. See, it seems that God did not suddenly take his forgiveness, throw us out of his house and lock the door -- we did that to ourselves, naturally as we began to understand ourselves as "selves". Then, we need to understand God as one who can (has) forgiven us. Many today miss the point that God loves us and has already forgiven us. It seems as though there has never really been "an offense" on our part. But, never-the-less we feel guilty and must have a remedy for that. It seems that God has provided us Christ as an example of how we can live in true understanding of our status with a great and powerful God. (I hope I am making sense!)

Now forgiveness as it relates to our relationships with others is definitely a reality. Some of you have shared how being able to forgive another has helped you get past situations in your life.

And as for justice, I again have come to understand this concpet better through the book I read. Borg suggests that Jesus' central message of the kingdom of God, was about God's justice -- mainly social and political justice. He explains that many Christians incorrectly define God's justice as: "derserved punishment of us for our sins" and God's mercy as: " God's loving forgiveness of us in spite of our guilt." Borg says that this concept has incorrectly and unnecessarily skewed Christianity's focus away from God's true desire to erradicate human injustice. Jesus came to preach the kingdom of God as something that was in opposition to the social and political injustices of his time. Thus, God still today would have a problem with social and political injustices. Social systems after all play a vital role in shaping us as people and so they can bring us up or bring us down. Thus, they are a force that must be dealt with. And thus, justice is an issue that should be central to our message as Christians. God's justice or "dream for the earth" is that all people will live in peace and love and in a social and political system that will help to further their individual growth, not hinder it. Jesus again came to live a life of justice. He decided to take up his cross and fight for justice for all people despite the cost to him.

Barry:

What does common brotherhood mean and how do we live it?
Barry Doesn't it seem that Jesus has answered this for us? Love God with all of your heart mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. NOT because: do this or God's "justice" will come upon you, but rather: do this and you will live in God's presence and assist the others around you in their effort to live in God's presence.

and Barry:

There is a growing realization that life is more than about being right. There is perhaps sometimes more truth in the question than in the answer. The question often touches on more information than a single answer.
Yes, we must live in a way that sees the bigger picture. It is not about how things effect us individually as much as it is about how it effects us as a group. Unless we lock ourselves away in a dungeon we are all a part of a group and thus we as individuals effect the group of which we are a part.

I think it has always been about the bigger picture regardless of Adam ,Eve, Isreal, Judea, Jesus, the temple, 70 AD, etc..... Couldn't these be metaphors for us as Christians for how we feel in relation to God and each other?

Does anyone follow me?

Christy

[Amie]

Couldn't these be metaphors for us as Christians for how we feel in relation to God and each other?

Absolutely, the redemptive story when viewed in the bigger picture, also has a bigger story to tell imo.

As per singing the anthem of the book author, it sounds to me that this book helped you put into words what was already in your heart and mind. I'm wondering whether we should be thanking the author, or his editor, lol!

You are making sense and I say "preach it sister!!"

Amie

[christyG]

Amie said:

it sounds to me that this book helped you put into words what was already in your heart and mind.
You are exactly right, that is what I have found in the book, maybe everyone will not find that as I have. Many questions have suddenly been answered about Christianity and my faith. I am sure that I will develop new questions and concerns in the future and the search for those answers is what I live for.....the thrill of the hunt:) .

Christy

[Infinite Grace]

Funny thing is: it seems to me to be easy to question all this forgiveness and justice stuff when we live in places like Colorado Springs, or Traverse City MI. What do we think the Chinese who are killed for their faith, whether Christianity or any other (the Communists hate all religion). What would we say to that? Because all is "fulfilled" should the Chinese just reject "religion" and become Communists. Then they can live happily ever after?

And what of our country (for those of us who live in the US)? Is it true that, as Dr. Greg Boyd maintains, the U.S. is not "a Christian nation?" If so, what made us different from the other countries that are impoverished? Was it because John Locke was just so much smarter than everyone else, or what it that Christianity was the framework that established a nation of justice and faith? And it seems ironic to me that people on the left criticize our nation for being too materialistic, and yet demand that we do something about the poverty in the Third World. Isn't that a foolish demand? Why would we want to make those Third World countries materialistic like ourselves?

These philosophical questions are wonderful, as long as you close your eyes and ignore reality. Is it really punishment of our children, teaching them to behave in civilized manner, and work hard to provide for their family that is causing the problems in our nation? Or is the problem that we teach that punishment is wrong, accepting people for their uncivilized behaviors (like lying, stealing, killing, raping), and that it is wrong to "work too hard" is a disease now (called "workaholicism")?

We cannot ignore history. We may not agree with every application of "justice" but to deny that justice is necessary is short-sighted. When rapists, child molesters, killers, spouse abusers etc. run rampant in our society because our job is to forgive them, what then? Have we so ignored God's example in his word that we cannot see, as Doug pointed out in his earlier article, that Love and Wrath can exist at the same time towards the same people?

Regarding the current situation: I am all for stopping Islam in its tracks. That has nothing to do with how I believe God views them, but it has everything to do with the safety of my family, who are my closest neighbors, as well as my fellow countrymen, and people around the world. You can call it what you will, but I call it "loving my neighbor" - and it is necessary.

[Barry]

Hi Ed!
You said:
“Funny thing is: it seems to me to be easy to question all this forgiveness and justice stuff when we live in places like Colorado Springs, or Traverse City MI. What do we think the Chinese who are killed for their faith, whether Christianity or any other (the Communists hate all religion). What would we say to that? Because all is "fulfilled" should the Chinese just reject "religion" and become Communists. Then they can live happily ever after?

And what of our country (for those of us who live in the US)? Is it true that, as Dr. Greg Boyd maintains, the U.S. is not "a Christian nation?" If so, what made us different from the other countries that are impoverished? Was it because John Locke was just so much smarter than everyone else, or what it that Christianity was the framework that established a nation of justice and faith? And it seems ironic to me that people on the left criticize our nation for being too materialistic, and yet demand that we do something about the poverty in the Third World. Isn't that a foolish demand? Why would we want to make those Third World countries materialistic like ourselves?

These philosophical questions are wonderful, as long as you close your eyes and ignore reality. Is it really punishment of our children, teaching them to behave in civilized manner, and work hard to provide for their family that is causing the problems in our nation? Or is the problem that we teach that punishment is wrong, accepting people for their uncivilized behaviors (like lying, stealing, killing, raping), and that it is wrong to "work too hard" is a disease now (called "workaholicism")?”

As far as my own views Ed, it is not a matter of labeling “left” or “right” as these definitions change as you go from country to country. Within the USA itself the “right” is often doing “left” things and the “left” is often doing “right” things. While there are some right and left issues I personally feel that such is often blurred when it come to their actions.


As pertains to justice and forgiveness the larger issue at hand is IMHO not a matter of looking to the issue of justice as perceived to find and establish justice. So then in my own mind the issue is not one of allowing anyone to do anything they want to at any time. Rather question the notion of justice as it infers “payment” and “debt”. (And it most very often does)
If we are locking people up to pay for their crime then we are wasting our time because payment can never be made. Justice cannot be attained because justice cannot undo. Justice is looking for a fairness that does not exist. So then the “price” is increased because of strong feelings that restitution be made. Restitution IMHO cannot be made and will never be made.

You said:
“We cannot ignore history. We may not agree with every application of "justice" but to deny that justice is necessary is short-sighted. When rapists, child molesters, killers, spouse abusers etc. run rampant in our society because our job is to forgive them, what then? Have we so ignored God's example in his word that we cannot see, as Doug pointed out in his earlier article, that Love and Wrath can exist at the same time towards the same people?”

Yes and that wrath was satisfied. Man could not make payment because man cannot undo. The only way to undo was to destroy the old utterly and completely and where it is judicially remembered no more and begin again wherein “justice” is past and fulfilled and a different philosophy has begun.
God’s discipline now has nothing to do with justice or forgiveness. It has nothing to do with accountability but responsibility. There are consequences for actions but there are not “payment” for those actions.

You said:
“Regarding the current situation: I am all for stopping Islam in its tracks. That has nothing to do with how I believe God views them, but it has everything to do with the safety of my family, who are my closest neighbors, as well as my fellow countrymen, and people around the world. You can call it what you will, but I call it "loving my neighbor" - and it is necessary”

You have every right to your opinion Ed. You may be right. IMHO some of how this situation has been handled from “our” side has been counterproductive because we often contradict ourselves on a political level. Instead of saying “you need to be democratic” we sometimes say, “God is on our side not yours because we are Christians”. This is often what they “hear”. It is equal opportunity that is needed not, “God is on our side and not yours” which has come from both the left and the right sides.

But that is politics for you. And my views center more around philosophy and practical approach.
Barry

[Infinite Grace]

Re: consistency. How many here, who disagree with our response towards Islam, feel that the police department can be disbanded, as well as our courts. I mean, after all, if justice has no place in our society, only forgiveness and love, then why do we need a legal system? All we have to do is let everyone know that we will forgive them, no matter what they do to us.

Does that work? It should if the Opposition to the War is correct. I mean, after all, we should just love the Muslims and they'll stop killing, right? So, let's just love the rapists and murderers and they'll stop their crimes as well. I mean, c'mon folks, why prosecute that poor misguided soul, Ken Lay, for his indiscretions over at Enron. Shouldn't we just forgive him too? Or doesn't that forgiveness stuff work with rich white men?

Note: my sarcasm is intended here.

[Paige]

Paige wrote:

The only strong opinion I have regarding your questions are. 1. Loving my enemy does not mean allowing them to kill me (if its in my power to stop it) or allowing them to kill my neighbor (again, if its in my power to prevent it). 2. I think the same goes for those we consider friends.

Amie wrote:

Agreed. I question whether or not enabling and allowing is truly loving them to begin with. I think that it is extremely important to view these things while consciously in "our business". We are not actually trying to control their actions, but to protect ourselves iow.

and:

I think that the difference here is that we are in "our business". I don't think we cast aside protection for self and others, I think that we do cast aside efforts at controlling what choices other people are making.


Lauri wrote:

Most of us would say we can't just forgive criminals and let them roam free to commit more crimes. Christians say if God just forgives everybody with no consequences then everyone would just run amok sinning at every whim. Like Paige said I too have a lot more questions than answers on this topic.

Barry wrote:

There are lessons to be learned and consequences to be endured but there are no prices to be paid or debt incurred in the purity of relationship as it now stands.

and:

I think that many of us have very strong feelings about many atrocities that have happened and that do happen and that are fresh in our minds. I would not wish to diminish the importance of those feelings. Nor underestimate the terrible emotion scaring that can and does take place in this life.

and:

I think that they commonly are, but don't have to be. We can be healed from negative feelings that we harbor for a person, and maybe even feel love for them - and still support consequence for harmful choices.

Christy wrote:


And as for justice, I again have come to understand this concpet better through the book I read. Borg suggests that Jesus' central message of the kingdom of God, was about God's justice -- mainly social and political justice. He explains that many Christians incorrectly define God's justice as: "derserved punishment of us for our sins" and God's mercy as: " God's loving forgiveness of us in spite of our guilt." Borg says that this concept has incorrectly and unnecessarily skewed Christianity's focus away from God's true desire to erradicate human injustice. Jesus came to preach the kingdom of God as something that was in opposition to the social and political injustices of his time. Thus, God still today would have a problem with social and political injustices. Social systems after all play a vital role in shaping us as people and so they can bring us up or bring us down. Thus, they are a force that must be dealt with. And thus, justice is an issue that should be central to our message as Christians. God's justice or "dream for the earth" is that all people will live in peace and love and in a social and political system that will help to further their individual growth, not hinder it. Jesus again came to live a life of justice. He decided to take up his cross and fight for justice for all people despite the cost to him.

From the responses I quoted above, I can't come to the conclusion that anyone is advocating that justice has no place in our society. Maybe I'm the one that is not understanding properly? The way I'm seeing it is that we are affirming that there are consequences to actions. I would not advocate a dismantling of our police and courts. Plainly, we haven't arrived at the point in our existence where everyone is handling freedom in a responsible way. I don't feel that society needs to allow people to run amok and trample on others' rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (which is clearly what those who harm are doing, IMO).

Paige

[Barry]

Hey Ed:
You said:
“How many here, who disagree with our response towards Islam, feel that the police department can be disbanded, as well as our courts. I mean, after all, if justice has no place in our society, only forgiveness and love, then why do we need a legal system? All we have to do is let everyone know that we will forgive them, no matter what they do to us.”

Hopefully no one here thinks that there are to be no consequences for from police and courts for established checks and balances that maintain social order within the ethical framework of Life, Liberty, Equality and Common Brotherhood. To think however that this equals Justice is another matter IMHO.
Our attempts to establish “justice” are IMO circular in their very nature. When there is a prevalent philosophy that a “price” should be paid and “justice” should be served then you have a philosophy that is counter productive to the continued evolution of that society which can also affect international dealing and relations.

The issue is not justice but respect. We are not looking for “payment” but how we can get along. If one has no interest in getting along then checks and balances are placed to keep order in the framework of Life, Liberty, Equality and Common Brotherhood.

The “intent” of those checks and balances and consequences are not to produce justice but relationship. Simply a matter of having no alternative for the greater intent of Life, Liberty, Equality and Common Brotherhood. In my view, consequence does not equal justice. IMHO Life, Liberty, Equality and Common Brotherhood are not preserved through attempts at justice but attempts at relationship. The wider sphere of relationship has to be preserved through civil checks and balances and consequences. Nothing is done for revenge and everything for love. Love however must be ethically applied. That may mean and will mean locking up someone who will not get his or her act together in view of Life, Liberty, Equality and Common Brotherhood.

You said:
“Does that work? It should if the Opposition to the War is correct. I mean, after all, we should just love the Muslims and they'll stop killing, right? So, let's just love the rapists and murderers and they'll stop their crimes as well.”

More genuine moves away from our “sense” of “justice” and I think we will a ground work to work our way out of so many killings and murder and rape. When we promote any type of “revenge” or “payment” or “price to be paid” (civil consequence is not a price it is constraining necessity in view of the greater scope of things) we feed the philosophy that we oppose. There will be the murderers and the rapists and the hateful acts that try to undermine Life, Liberty, Equality and Common Brotherhood but they will not be effectively dealt with through any other means than love.
IMHO what we conceive as justice is slowly being philosophically undermined and will be replaced with a more loving approach where in those who would attempt to undermine the values of Life, Liberty, Equality and Common Brotherhood may know that the consequence imposed on them is done for no other reason than love and relationship.
Peace to you,
Barry

[christyG]

Hey Barry, and all,

I think I more clearly see what you are saying now:

As pertains to justice and forgiveness the larger issue at hand is IMHO not a matter of looking to the issue of justice as perceived to find and establish justice. So then in my own mind the issue is not one of allowing anyone to do anything they want to at any time. Rather question the notion of justice as it infers “payment” and “debt”. (And it most very often does)
If we are locking people up to pay for their crime then we are wasting our time because payment can never be made. Justice cannot be attained because justice cannot undo. Justice is looking for a fairness that does not exist. So then the “price” is increased because of strong feelings that restitution be made. Restitution IMHO cannot be made and will never be made.


You know, my husband is probation officer and much of his time is spent trying to get people to pay restitution.:eek:

Also, as a preschool teacher, we are taught to have our children tell their friends they are sorry after they have hit them or taken a toy away from them or in some other means hurt them. I tell them that saying they are sorry lets their friend know that they are ready to make amends to their relationship, but it can never take back what they have done. They must then learn not to do the things that cause harm in the first place. A quote I recall from Ghandi says that "an eye for an eye leaves both people blind."

Just to add a thought to my point as quoted by Paige about God's justice: I feel that we have Jesus as an example of how to "fight" for God's justice. It seems that we can best change political systems by working to change ourselves and others on an individual level. These individuals can then create the necessary social changes. And I'm not talking about conversion or anything that traditional Christianity would teach. I am talking about: "act justly, love mercy and walk humbly with our God" -- Micah 6:8

Christy

[Barry]

Hi Christy,
Where we can get from "forgive me please" to "my actions were unloving and I wish for healing in our relationship" is IMHO the way to go. That is restitution if we are looking for a way of expressing it.
We teach our kids justice. Let's try relationship.
JMO
Barry

[christyG]

Barry,

Well said:)

[backtothefuture]

Just wanted to say, that I have been lurking here, and what you are saying, is starting to make more sense to me.
Thanks everyone.
Nancy