Ishmael and Isaac

[Amie]

In re: to a subject brought up by Nancy:


And if anyone has a good article on Ishmael and how he played into the plan for fulfillment I would really love to know. So often when we are with our friends we hear, The Jews are all from Isaac and the Arabs from Ishmael. But I don't understand if that is really a correct response now and some days that doesn't make any sense to me. These are friends who are coming from the fundamental, futurist type of back ground. I would like to know though, so I can start sharing some thoughts with them.

In Genesis 16, we find Sarah (Abraham's wife) unable to bear children. She gave Abraham her slave girl, "Hagar" so that Sarah "might be built up through her". When Hagar did conceive, Sarah was extremely jealous. Sarah "dealt harshly with her" and Hagar ran away.

She met a messenger of God which told her to return to her mistress and to submit herself to her. This messenger said "Behold! You are with child and shall bear a son; and you shall call his name Ishmael (which means "God will hear"), because Jehovah has listened to your affliction. And he shall be a wild ass of a man, his hand against all, and the hand of everyone against him; and he shall live before all his brothers." She returns.

God tells Abraham that he has given Sarah a child in Genesis 17. God says "Yea, I have blessed her and she shall become nations; kings of people shall be from her."

Abraham overjoyed says to God "Oh that Ishmael might live before You!" ("Before", like "before your eyes", or "with") God answers saying "Your wife Sarah truly shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. And I have established My covenant with him for a perpetual covenant with his seed after him. And as to Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall father twelve chiefs, and I will make him a great nation. And I will establish My covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this time next year."

Muslims believe that they are from the lineage of Ishmael. They also believe that Abraham offered Ishmael up for sacrifice and not Isaac. I side with our book so if Muslims evolved from Israel, they evolved through Isaac.

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Amie,
I have read that the Muslims believe Ishmael was offered up for sacrifice and not Isaac. What was the purpose of Ishmael anyway? God blessed him and said he would become a great nation. So where is all that history?
And what was the point of Ishmael to the fulfillment story?
Trying to figure out what his purpose in this was or is.
Thanks
Nancy

[Amie]

Nancy,

The covenant was established through Isaac, so Ishmael was not a part of that. There's some really good info here though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael

Hope it helps :)

Amie

[kevinbeck]

Just a quick thought...
It seems to me that Isaac was offered on behalf of--not to the exclusion of--Ishmael.

[Amie]

Just a quick thought...
It seems to me that Isaac was offered on behalf of--not to the exclusion of--Ishmael.

That's right, I didn't think of that! Though the covenant was established through Isaac, Ishmael would have an inheritance.. that's right...

Cool :9_cool:

Amie

[ozark]

I think we must remember that Isaac and Ishmael were real people, but they were also types and shadows of the old creation and the new creation (Gal. 4:21-31). One was the old covenant man born out of the effort of man. One was the new covenant man born out of the effort of God. The old creation is no more. Ishmael is dead. Isaac lives. This has nothing to do with race, but a new creation in Christ. Moreover, the Jew and the Gentile have become one new man in Christ. The old testament distinctions have passed away.

[backtothefuture]

Amie, thanks for the link. I have never been there before. I have been reading like crazy. Will post something, when I have 1000 more questions for you:biglaugha: (I will try to limit it to one!)
I know this may sound odd (well I guess I will ask one question today) Are we now in a covenant with God? Is there such a thing today? I was thinking about Isaac having the covenant and not Ishmael. Do you think that made Ishmael feel unloved or like a second best? I guess I feel bad for him. Just like I feel badly for Job.
I think some of that covenant thinking has spilled over today in a bad way sometimes. You know when people think they have it and no one else does. I guess that's why I was wondering.
Blessings
Nancy

[Amie]

Nancy,

I think that's what Kevin was touching on when he wrote "It seems to me that Isaac was offered on behalf of--not to the exclusion of--Ishmael."

Ishmael was not excluded from the inheritance, it just didn't come through his bloodline. God delivered the New Covenant to Israel when the Old Covenant was fulfilled. The New Covenant meant that the barrier between God and mankind was lifted - even for Ishmael.

I see it as a promise. God promised that he would put his Law into their inward parts and he would write it on their hearts; that He would be their God, and they would be His people. He also promised that they would no longer each man teach his neighbor, and each man his brother, saying, Know God. For they would all know Him, from the least of them even to the greatest of them. He promised that he would forgive their iniquity, and remember their sins no more (see Jer 31:31-34).

The Mosaic covenant had conditions that Jesus kept, and those choosing to remain under the Law would pass away with that law (not to say that they were never, ever, redeemed). Those choosing to "die to the law" (Romans 7:4, Gal 2:19) and to be reborn in the body of Christ, did not pass away with the law (and were redeemed as well). The choice was theirs, there is no law to die to today. There is no covenant for us to enter into, God kept his promise.

No one is/was excluded from redemption.

My 2 cents,

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Gosh Amie,
When you write , I feel like you are writing poetry. Its all explained so beautiful and just touches me so. I hope that one day I can come to the place to be able to explain things the way you do:biggrinbounce:
I still wonder though if Ishmael felt badly. He was sent away, but yes he was included in the promise, but at what price I think sometimes.
Also, I was wondering if Ishmael and his linage, up until the fulfillment time, were believing in one God, or many, or in the end it doesn't matter anyway.
Thanks,
Nancy

[Amie]

Thank you for the kind words Nancy. I think that I got where I am by striving to be as well spoken as some of the others around here. You'll get there, and you'll add 'Nancy's touch" on it. I'm looking forward to it :).

I'm not sure whether or not Ishmael felt bad. If he did, maybe that's why he became "an ass of a man", lol! I'm just kidding. Seriously, that's a good question and I wonder if someone else around here knows..

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Ha! Pretty funny Amie!!

[Amie]

Nancy,

Have you ever thought about why Hagar took her son becoming "an ass of a man" seemingly as a good thing? She went back, seemingly comforted. My thought is that she may have been pleased to think that he'd cause them alittle trouble. It's like the whole "eye for an eye" thing - she suffered.

That may not be and I'd love to hear feedback. Just having some stray thoughts this evening.

Amie

[backtothefuture]

She maybe thought the odds were against him from the start. Maybe even knowing after Isaac was born, Ismael's days were numbered. Still as a parent, I would find it almost impossible to send one of my children away. Just didn't seem just. But then what is just. Who am I to say what God chooses to do or doesn't do.
Ismael did come back to help Isaacs bury their father. So they were united in that deed.
Maybe it just hits me harder, because my husband has not spoken to his brother who lives 3 blocks away in 10 years. My kids lost all their cousins on that side of the family. We have missed all graduations, weddings, you name it. My husbands brother was always the 'favorite son" Spoiled, given money, you name it. We suffered so in our early marriage and were told that our problem was we wanted to spend time together as a family. How is that for a put down. Anyway, I guess I see my husband as an Ishmael sometimes. And I wish for him, healing in his life and his eyes to be open, if not to a covenant, to the fulfillment of the promise. I think he would find comfort in that. And who knows, maybe that was enough for Ishmael.
Nancy

[christyG]

Hey,

Just read today on the Biblical Hebrew site that Ishmael is correctly translated to mean -- "God listens".

Thought that was interesting:)

Will think more on this -- just wanted to let you all think on it too.:)

Christy

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Christ for that info:) I just feel like there is something I am personally suppose to learn from Ismael? What his purpose was in Gods plan.
Though he didn't have the covenant, but had the promise, I want to know what that means for today. But am not even sure what I am looking for:confused:
Maybe it has to do with what is going on in the world. If God saved all of humanity eventually through Jesus whose blood line goes back to Isaac (I think) where those in the blood line of Ismael under the same covenant?
The way we look at things today, it doesn't look that way. Unless you are looking at things being fulfilled and all are covered now under the grace of God.
You should be good and confused now!
Blessings
Nancy:)

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
In my reading and searching for info on Ishmael I came across this interesting information on his Mother Hagar. This information is from the book I am reading called The Women's Torah Commentary.
The encounter between Hagar and the Divine is a cause of discomfort in traditional Jewish interpretation. In Gen. 16:7 it is Gods (Adonai's) messenger who finds and speaks to hagar. In verse 13, Hagar names Adonai. This causes a lot of uneasiness because even in the Jewish faith it is hard to think that God would speak directly to a woman and worse than that, she would dare reply. By the end of the Chapter Hagar has encountered God directly. Hagar gives God a name. Even Abram has never done this or has anyone else.
This author goes on to say, what courage! In the early chapters of the Torah, the act of naming is highly significant, empowering and embracing.
The first human being names all the creatures. Adam names his wife Eve, placing himself in relationship to her. Eve names her children Cain and Seth. Gad names the children of Sarah and Hagar. Also will rename adult individuals. beginning with Abram and Sarai. Yet, here for the first and only time in a divine encounter, a human, a woman names God. Hagar names God el ro'i, "God Who sees me" This is in response to God's naming her child Yishma'el which means "God hears"
I just thought this was so cool!
Also, when Hagar runs away, she runs to a spring of water and that is where she encounters God.
Water is often a symbol of spiritual belief and strength in the Torah. Rebecca and Rachael are first introduced us at well. The children of Israel are strengthened by crossing the Sea Of Reeds, and are spiritually weakened when there is a lack of water. Complaining they want to return to Egypt.
When the prophetess Miriam (whose name contains the word yam "sea") dies, we are told that the people were without water. As people loose faith, Moses strikes a rock and bring forths water. Hagar and Ismael are sent to the wilderness. When her water runs out , she will lose faith and sit and watch her son die. But her "God of Seeing" will open her eyes and Hagar will find a well.
Anyway,
I think the message for me was not so much now about Ishmael. But about his mother. That would make sense to me, cause mothering is such a huge part of who I am. Today I am a little worn and melancholy, but I have the chance again, to drink some water and get refreshed. I can choose, to dry up today in my pain and return to Egypt and bondage or drink some living water and continue on my journey face to face with God.
Blessings,
Nancy

[Amie]

Nancy,

Interesting that she is lead back to Abraham again who symbolizes righteousness through faith. I wonder if this is connected:

Galatians 4
21 ¶ Tell me, those desiring to be under Law, do you not hear the Law?
22 For it has been written, Abraham had two sons, one out of the slave woman and one out of the free woman.
23 But, indeed, he of the slave woman has been born according to flesh, and he out of the free woman through the promise,
24 which things are being allegorized, for these are two covenants, one, indeed, from Mount Sinai bringing forth to slavery (which is Hagar,
25 for Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, and she slaves with her children),
26 but the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all;
27 for it has been written, "Be glad, barren one not bearing; break forth and shout, the one not travailing; for more are the children of the desolate rather than she having the husband." Isa. 54:1
28 But, brothers, we are children of promise according to Isaac.
29 But then, even as he born according to flesh persecuted the one according to Spirit, so it is also now.
30 But what says the Scripture? "Cast out the slave woman and her son, for in no way shall the son of the slave woman inherit with the son of the free woman." Gen. 21:10
31 Then, brothers, we are not children of a slave woman but of the free woman.

This goes to show you that there's no story worthy of reading over and dismissing..

Amie

[Lauri]

Nancy,
You wrote:
Today I am a little worn and melancholy, but I have the chance again, to drink some water and get refreshed. I can choose, to dry up today in my pain and return to Egypt and bondage or drink some living water and continue on my journey face to face with God.


I love the way you said that, it's so uplifting and beautiful. I hope you don't mind but I shared it with Tim King today, he asked in his daily download if we had any particular word from God or from scripture that was inspiring to us to please share it with him. What you wrote was the most inspiring thing for me this week. Thanks for sharing it!

Lauri

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Lauri and Amie.
I know now it wasn't Ismael i was to dig into, But his mother. I have been asking God all day to show me those things I am still in bondage to. I have worked hard these past 9 months letting a lot of grief and junk go. It just boggles my mind though, how quick I can slip back into the dark places that shout all the false lies about me.
Amy sent me a great Link from over at Presence about being Transformed. I love when you or others here or over there talk about writing now a new covenant on our hearts. I had a counselor tell me once, that I always talked to him with my heart.
Anyway, I am on my way out of my wilderness walk. The stone has been rolled away for me and I am really wanting with my "whole heart" to live in the now, face to face. I told Amie that I feel like I have had a partial heart transplant this year. Part of my heart is still in stone. (law and bondage). mostly from the Christian background I come out of. But something happened to me this past September and the other side of my heart started beating to another drummer. So I am not quite dead, not quite alive yet. But I am awake!! And that I think is a really good sign:biggrinbounce:
Blessings,
Nancy