For the animals..

[Amie]

Out here, we have a fast food fried chicken chain called "KFC" ("Kentucky Fried Chicken"). I saw a billboard rallying the boycotting of KFC, and went to the site listed on it. There (http://www.kentuckyfriedcruelty.com/index.asp) I viewed a video entitled "Meet Your Meat". (I warn you, it is EXTREMELY graphic) I was brought to tears.

I also watched "Kentucky Fried Cruelty" (also very graphic) which shows the production process for KFC.

PETA advocates vegetarianism. I am not against it, though I am not a vegetarian. From what I understand, some PETA advocates go to extremes.

I advocate the humane treatment of animals raised for consumption.

Go here to see which grocery store in your area carries "Certified Humane Raised & Handled Products": http://www.certifiedhumane.org/

Look for this logo on packages at your local grocers (It guarantees the humane treatment of animals):

http://www.americanhumane.org/images/content/pagebuilder/128674.jpg

The Humane Society of the United States has a lot of additional information here: http://www.hsus.org/farm_animals/factory_farms/

Organic meat doesn't contain the residue of a daily dose of antibiotics and growth hormones fed to distressed animals living in horrible conditions. The hormones of these meats (especially chickens) directly affect the sexual maturation of our children. (Have you noticed that puberty is beginning earlier and earlier?)

The residue from intensively farmed dairy cows are stored in fats, particularly cream. Organic milk is typically produced by farms who allow more grazing and better lives for their cattle, though not in every case ("Horizon" dairy cows for example, are in crowded pens, but fed organically qualified food).

There are a number of active organizations working for the benefit of the animals available at your googling fingertips.

I would love to hear how such issues are being handled outside the US - or if the issues differ.

Whether or not you decide to make any small change in your life, thanks for allowing me to share.

Amie

[Barry]

Amie, I'm glad you have brought this up.
There are several different approaches that we could take to this issue.
Legislation is one approach and education is another.

Legislation has it's place and so does education.
Neither it seems has the total answer.
However IMHO education is safer. It can be manipulated for sure but so can legislation. Easier to change our minds than change laws.

I suppose then the point would be to educate people as much as possible so that they can make their own choices aware of what those choices are and the consequence of those choices.
This may not solve the whole issue but it can and IMHO does affect it.
So when education is the approach I instinctively favor that. Always afraid that a new law will reduce our liberties somewhere else or somewhere down the line.

This does not infer that you think differently, but is simply an expression of my own thoughts on such matters. That having been said:

Philosophically speaking I see "consciousness" as the direction of creation development. [IMHO this is where God is taking humanity. And sharing (the nature of love is to share) creativity with him.] An increased awareness and respect for ourselves as ones who see ourselves as sentient naturally brings a greater respect for the ones who we deem as less sentient than ourselves wherein elementary attributes of such are clearly visible. The animals are often proved to be more self-aware than we previously thought.
It is not therefore a question of equal rights in this regard but respect. How we act upon that respect must start with our individual choices and the proper education to see the result of those choices.
It is therefore IMHO an evolving issue as we ourselves are evolving in the awareness of our sentient place or position.

Now you can tease me sis for saying so much without actually saying anything at all. :rofl::rofl:

Barry

[backtothefuture]

We are actually thinking of going the vegetarian route. We saw the video on the KFC. It was terrible. Also, many years ago, my kids adopted a cow, so we have not had beef in the house in 15 years. Once a year we treat ourselves to an outback steak and that is that.
I was wondering about your thoughts also, on the bird flu and Mad cow disease.
Also, in old testament times, were the people allowed to eat meat? What sustained the people wandering for 40 years besides manna?
Thanks,
Nancy

[Paige]

We are meat-eaters, but are trying to eat meat in more moderation. I'm also incorporating more vegetarian recipes in my cooking repertoire. Every year, our family buys 1/2 a beef that is grown by a local farmer here on the prairie. He does not pump them up with hormones or antibiotics, so we feel better giving that to our kids. (I really hate it that kids today seem to be going through puberty sooner and sooner.)

Also, we are fortunate to have a Hutterite farm just across the border from us in Montana. They raise free-range chickens free of all the hormones and antibiotics as well. Best tasting chicken we've ever had, and the price is comparable to what they are selling in stores for regular chicken. (Also, for our beef, we only spend about $1.75 per pound with all cuttiong and wrapping fees included. That is easier on the budget for our large family, so I feel it is a win/win situation.)

Amie, I can't bring myself to watch the graphic footage. I am way too emotional right now, and would probably be reduced to a pile of tears for days. I am glad that there is a growing awareness out there that there may be some better ways of doing things. There is always room for improvement, IMO. From what I hear, hunting for our food sounds way more humane than some of what is practiced commercially.

Paige

[christyG]

Hey guys,

Also meat eaters, but trying to "reform". My husband is having a harder time than myself, but after a meeting with the doc about high cholesterol (his father passed away with a heart attack at age 52) he is really trying to change his ways.

As for me, it has been hard for me to eat pork since I saw "Babe"!----Babe's (a pig) mother gets led away to slaughter in a giant slaughter house. Also the duck on the farm tries repeatedly to save his own life by trying to make himself useful to the farmer. (he pretends to be a rooster and crows at sunrise:biglaugha: ) Babe really is a good movie, for more reasons than this----compassion and understanding and love are some wonderful themes represented.

I am also trying to buy organic products and we are going to try our hand at raising our own small garden this year. I read a book called "What you Don't Know May Be Killing You" that changed my outlook on the things I put into my body.

We are big taco eaters and I just purchased a soy based, vegetarian taco filling that we are going to try this week.---let you know if it tastes better than rubber:)

Good topic!
Christy

[Amie]

So when education is the approach I instinctively favor that.

Me too. Something, maybe nieve, tells me that when people know, they make different choices. That isn't to say that I wouldn't support legislation against swinging pigs by their back legs and slamming them into the ground if that's what it took. It just seems to me to be simpler than laws.

Barry, I agree with your assessment of the direction of humanity. We have been made fruitful, we are multiplying, and we will subdue the earth ;).


I was wondering about your thoughts also, on the bird flu and Mad cow disease.

Mad cow disease is passed from cow to cow via the grain that has animal by-product in it. Basically, the cows are turned to cannibals so people can save money on cow chow. The only way it spreads is that one cow eat another. The fact that it exists reflects what they're feeding the cattle. That's another reason that organic stuff is better -- no grain.

The bird flu has little to do with the treatment of animals other than it can be spread much more easily in those prisons that the chickens are being kept in. Right now, it spreads from bird to bird, and bird to human. For there to be a "pandemic", three things must occur: There has to be a new strain of flu (done), it has to be deadly to humans (done), and spreadable between humans (isn't). The fear is that a human with the human flu will also catch the bird flu and the two strains of flu will mix resulting in a mutant that passes from human to human. We have no immunity of our own, or man-made, to the potential mutant strain.


Also, in old testament times, were the people allowed to eat meat? What sustained the people wandering for 40 years besides manna?

I hadn't ever thought about that, so I'm not sure! I know that pre-captivity Hebrews brought livestock with them. Anyone else know off hand? (Do you have time to research it?)


All -

Today we bought our first half gallon of organic milk. It tasted just like the milk that I used to pay a nickel for in Elementary school. I wonder if there's a connection there (maybe they didn't pump them with so much hormone back then or something?).

Mike (my son/13) chose some soy burgers and soy mac n cheese. The burgers were extremely tasty, and the mac n cheese was pretty good.

I don't want to be vegetarian. We're gonna do what little we can to support the industries working toward better treatment of animals. We're gonna buy organic and "free farmed" when we can.

As well, I hope that I can do my part in raising awareness (without throwing paint on people's clothing).

Looking forward to hearing about the tacos and learning about other foods as well all experiment together :).

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
Our daughter who now has the celiac diagnosis has taught me a lot about organic and trying to eat healthier. I don't mean this to sound like a cop out, but the organic stuff by us is so very expensive. I am trying to try one thing different every week though.

With the mad cow and bird flu, I did wonder if buying that organic would make a difference. Sounds like it would. So thanks for that advice.

There must have been cattle of some sort in the wilderness because of all the sacrifices. I just wondered if they were able to eat any of it!!

Please let me know how the taco's taste. Something I could make for a dinner when my daughter comes to visit.
Thanks,
Nancy

[Amie]

Nancy,

I don't think it's a cop-out, it's reality. I can't always afford to buy organic either. Every time I do, even if it's once a year, I'm supporting what they're doing. I do it whenever I am able. I'm hoping to be able more often than not, but then there's always reality again, lol!

Amie

[jlv]

Organic meat doesn't contain the residue of a daily dose of antibiotics and growth hormones fed to distressed animals living in horrible conditions. The hormones of these meats (especially chickens) directly affect the sexual maturation of our children. (Have you noticed that puberty is beginning earlier and earlier?)

Early sexual maturation has nothing to do with hormones or anti-biotics given to animals. It is due to better health, no starvation, and lack of rigourous activity. The first two items thing in that list are positives. The last might be questionable.

JL

[Amie]

JL,

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I firmly believe that the hormones injected in animals directly affect we who take them in in turn.

I've heard from some doctors that especially chicken is connected at times to gynecomastia in males as well.

(Good to see ya back around)

Amie

[Paige]

This isn't a question directly related to this thread, but something JL said brought it back to my mind. Here goes...

Does anyone have the hard data as to whether we have less disease or more today? Reason I ask is that my mom-in-law was in conversation with someone who was trying to link the high cancer and other disease rates with the "end times". She believes like we do, but didn't quite know what to say. It certainly seems like more people have cancer and other diseases. Could that just be that we know more about it because we are all so connected through media, internet, etc?

I also think we are very connected with our food source. We have to give our dobie synthetic hormones to combat some of the menopausal symptoms she is experiencing. Our vet cautioned me not to even touch the pill because it would be absorbed into my skin and I'd most likely wind up with cervical cancer. Dave has to give it to her and then wash his hands so he doesn't grow breasts, lol. He told us that this is the same stuff they were putting into the beef in a certain country (somewhere in S. America, can't remember exactly where) that caused an immediate increase in cervical cancers and early puberty in the women and girls there. I think they stopped when they saw what it was doing. Inactivity could also be making things worse, as we all well know. (We were not made to sit around and be couch potatoes.)

Paige

[Lou]

About ten years I was contacted through the agriculture service about building chicken growing factories for a company that supplied a large restaurant chain. The chicks come in a couple days old and six weeks later they are fully grown. That is less than half the time it takes naturally. Also in the grocery store the size of chickens is up 30-40% in the last 35 years. There are more than one reason for this but I don't eat chicken much anymore.

Paige I don't think that disease is more prevalent today that it was years ago it is that we have treatments and medical knowledge that previous generations didn't have. I know of people that have died of cancer that didn't know they had it, their doctor and family did though. At that time there was limited treatments and even more limited money. When social security was started in the US the average man lived less than sixty years today it is pushing eighty.

[Paige]

Lou,

When my m-i-law asked me about this, that was my gut feeling. It seems that in our day, we hear about everything. We know whats going on on the other side of the globe instantaneously. So, I felt as if it just appears as if there is more disease. I wish I had a way of getting the real stats so that I could prove what is my gut feeling.

Paige

[Amie]

I'm willing to bet that stats will make disease appear to be on the rise because of the over-diagnosis of things like ADHD and depression, and catching the real things in general before death.

That said, I'm betting that along with the rise in diagnosed disease, that there will be a dramatic decline in deaths and longer lifespans.

Maybe if you write these guys http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/ we can find out for sure?

Amie

[Paige]

I sent them an e-mail. We'll see if they respond...Thanks for the link, Amie.

Paige

[ozark]

Paige,

The idea that disease is on the rise is quite laughable if one looks at history. For instance, remember the great plagues that wiped out over half the population Europe? Diseases that used to be common killers such a Polio have been eradicated, etc.

Btw, a quick check showed that Canada and Australia have some of the longest life expectancies in the world. Higher than the US. I guess Barry and Davo will be running talk-grace after the rest of us are gone. ;)

[Amie]

This is so sad! http://www.wildlifesos.com/IBR/Dbears/bdancebody.htm

[Paige]

Yes, very sad...

[Tam]

I have to eat meat. And I need red meat for iron. I personally prefer to buy meats where I know the animals were treated very well. I like free range. I notice that buying locally is a good way for me to give business to the businesses who have good practices. imo education is the best way for these things to improve. Of course, if businesses become EXTREMELY large(and there's nothing wrong with that imo) then yes, some regulations are good I think. I think as much freedom as possible for ppl to make their own decisions regarding eating meat or not eating meat is VERY important.

Something I was really disturbed about was the whale that got upset at his trainer at Sea World. I wish we wouldn't put animals thru all that. I wish we would just leave them alone in their natural environments. We have so much tv and books where we can learn about animals that way and also stuff like "wild life Safari" environments seem ok to me too. Just a personal view. : ) Tami

[Amie]

Tam,

I eat meat too. I think that to stop eating meat, or wearing leather is to travel to the extreme other direction. I would hope that all of humanity can eventually learn the importance of treating the animals well - rather than the condemnation of eating a hamburger or a soy burger.

Isn't it crazy though how they show those "Animals gone wild" shows as if the animals were the bad guys? After 20 years of maltreatment and the perfect memory, an elephant looses its' mind and that is supposed to be a surprise?

Amie

[Tam]

Isn't it crazy though how they show those "Animals gone wild" shows as if the animals were the bad guys? After 20 years of maltreatment and the perfect memory, an elephant looses its' mind and that is supposed to be a surprise?

Amie

It sure is Amie. And we live in a world with so much great technology. My kids can watch shows where the animals are being viewed in their natural habitat and treated with respect and they learn immensely from them. I see no more need for zoo's or circus's and all that stuff. I just feel SO bad for the animals. Tami

[Amie]

Tami,

At the zoo you are able to experience the animal often times, even if it's just the smell (pew!). Many zoos (not all) are creating the habitats that animals are used to and happy in.

When I was a child I lived in Memphis, Tn. The lions were behind glass (if I'm remembering correctly -- in the least behind bars) in a very small, concrete bottom enclosure. There was a door where they could walk out onto there tiny iddy biddy piece of grace to nap in the sun. It was a miserable life.

By the time that I had reached adulthood - and revisited the place - they built "cat country", where there are acres of rolling hills. The way that they contain them is humane and interferes very little (if at all) with their lives.

That's just one example. Zoos everywhere are learning and creating what turn out to be luxurious habits for animals (they wouldn't eat that well in the wild).

So I am in support of the new zoos. I'm not sure that a circus could create a comfortable setting for animals though - but that doesn't mean it's not possible.

Have you ever considered though, what our being in the image/likeness of God means for the animals? There must be something in the plan for them...

Amie

[Tam]

Amie, Wonderful words for me to ponder. Yes, that sounds alot like a "wildlife Safari" type of atmosphere and that sounds really good to me also : )

Oh and I do feel animals hold a very special place in God's plan. I was taught that animals had no soul. It was simply a fact, period, no questions asked! lol. I no longer hold to that any more. I think ALL of creation is connected. I think these precious animals hold a special place in God's heart and I don't think He/She created them simply to live a few yrs here and then to be forgotten forever after. No way. Tami

[Amie]

I think ALL of creation is connected. I think these precious animals hold a special place in God's heart and I don't think He/She created them simply to live a few yrs here and then to be forgotten forever after. No way. Tami

I think that it's safe to say that we see eye to eye on that! :9_cool:

Amie