everlasting Father

[ericv]

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Hi all, I'm new to this board and as you may soon see, I'm a bit strange in my current view and definitely "off the wall". I enjoy sharing my thoughts with patient folk who care to take a peek. Please be frank and direct I,m not easily offended....

I have this current view that Jesus Christ being the first begotten of the Father, via the Holy Spirit, is to be a daddy. And that a "new beggining" will be set in place. Similar trials will take place with this next generation as the trials our generation (since Adam up to date). They also must grow and learn til they come into the manifold wisdom. Til they also birth a son (many membered body).

In other words, Jesus the son and soon Father, shall also be a grand-father, and so on.

Daniel 4:3
How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

I'll stop on that note and see where that goes.

[Barry]

I have this current view that Jesus Christ being the first begotten of the Father, via the Holy Spirit, is to be a daddy.

But not physical.
Christ took on the "daddy" attributes so to speak in that he was the "Father" on earth that is "manifest". IE "if you have seen me you have seen the Father also".


In other words, Jesus the son and soon Father, shall also be a grand-father, and so on.
Notice the context of scripture:

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

These are all attributes of God himself and the Christ would have these very "names".


Daniel 4:3
How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

This is not physical.
Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Compare these two verse:

Daniel 4:3
How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

Eph 3:20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
Eph 3:21 to Him glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

The point of the New Covenant was to move away from genealogies.

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for [B]the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple (AD 70) effectively ended the covenant that was attached to genealogies.

Just some initial thoughts mind you :)
Nice to have you here,
Barry



Blessings Barry

[ericv]

Hi Barry, I've read some of your other posts and respect your views. Thanks for welcoming me aboard.


But not physical.
Christ took on the "daddy" attributes so to speak in that he was the "Father" on earth that is "manifest". IE "if you have seen me you have seen the Father also".


These are all attributes of God himself and the Christ would have these very "names".


The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple (AD 70) effectively ended the covenant that was attached to genealogies.

I've selected the above quotes from your response, because they all have something in common, "It's not physical".

What I'm addressing, or attempting to address, is the whole over-all view of what God is doing. Let me take another angle at this:

God is of a dimension other then physical, atleast physical as we understand it, (Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Would you think God has thoughts and desires?

When God started this program, whatever it is, why, for what purpose, what was He hoping to accomplish in the end?

I'm digging for a certain gem obviously. As I may have understated, "I'm a bit off the wall".

[Barry]

Hey Eric

God is of a dimension other then physical, atleast physical as we understand it, (Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Here is my view of that text:
The predominate focus of the above verse is covenant creation or covenant cosmos as opposed to the common view that this refers to physical matter creation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first,
{IE first to the covenant people who had been entrusted with the oracles of God}
and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith
{as expressed in relation to types and figures}
to faith
{as we see now in the fulfilling of all things written}: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Note: From faith to faith is comparing the faith of those who had received a good report (Heb. 11) and those who were presently believing and were called the firstfruits. The subject matter is what was revealed in times past and what was presently being revealed. The "Gospel" was first revealed in types and figures and was presently being revealed in the then present transition from old to new.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them;
{IE among them}
for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,
{IE evident though it be in types and figures}
being understood by the things that are made,
{of the old covenant cosmos}
[even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Note: They like Adam knew God but then followed after an independent human potential and so followed in the foot steps of Adam.

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Verse 23 does IMO link covenant creation with universal creation in a sense because human potential finds its visible limits in its perceived natural surroundings. However the predominate meaning of the text is covenant creation and not the creation of visible physical matter. The meaning of the text is that the covenant people focused away from the image of God onto the image of the creature itself in a self defining way.
This I call the old covenant "self defined self". It is the "old man" that the firstfuits Christians were "putting off". They were giving up final authority over themselves through a trust in God through the faith of Christ Jesus.

Now the question however still stands. What is the connection between physical creation and the creator? We could write three books on the topic. One about what we know, one about what we think we know and one about what we really don't know at all LOL! This however should not hold us back from exploring and investigating for sure.
What I do like about your approach, if I have not presumed too much of course, is that it leaves open a continued integration in general terms between this life and the "other". Such a thing I personally would not discount.

My original point however IMHO still remains.
Even if Christ fell in love, and had children, it would not "fulfill" Is. 9:6.
The reason is because the verse deals with "kingdom" and the meaning of "kingdom". Kingdom is not an ongoing matter of physical lineage, not even Christ's.

Also, for such a proposition to be true, it would have already taken place, since all scripture has been fulfilled in the first century ending of the old covenant cosmos. But we have no biblical record of Christ ever having any children, and no record that such would fulfill scripture.
I think that you may still be looking forward for fulfillment to take place in the yet future. However my view is that all things have been fulfilled and we are now living in the new age.

Sorry to be so long winded.
Hope my writing is making some sense.
Please do feel free to express you views.
Blessings Barry

[ericv]

Wow Barry!

I'm overwhelmed, very direct and to the point. Very well explained indeed!

I especially enjoyed your response on the "big picture",
We could write three books on the topic. One about what we know, one about what we think we know and one about what we really don't know at all LOL!

Very true.


I think that you may still be looking forward for fulfillment to take place in the yet future. However my view is that all things have been fulfilled and we are now living in the new age.

Not looking for fulfillment per se, but rather an unveiling if you will.

I think the word is "parousia"? I know I've heard of it and even seen it used on this forum. A preacher once was teaching on the "appearing" and used the word "parousia" (I hope I'm spelling that correctly) and after the meeting a lady came to him and explained that she taught Greek, and when they took attendance, at school, when a name was called the student would respond, "parousia". It's been a while so please overlook my vulgarity.

You explained Romans chapter one very well, it was a very refreshing following your thoughts. To explain my present take in this I'll use the tabernacle of Moses for a template:

1. The court of the tabernacle was enlightened by natural sun. Here Israel saw and understood God with there natural minds. Here they/we were baptised with water.

2. Then came the Holy place, here we have the light of the golden candle stick (type of the Holy Spirit) and we still have the logos word of God, signified by the table of shew bread. Now we see and understand God via his written word through the impartation of the Holy Spirit. Yet we still only know and see in part.

3. The way to the Holiest place is via the alter of atonement and understanding the breast plate. Once inside we will see Christ in his fulness. A new light and a new baptism.

Other examples that lead me to this view:
1.Baptism of water (OT, natural awakening, court yard)
2.Baptism of Holy Spirit (NT, Spiritual awakening in-part, holy place)
3.Baptism of fire, (the law of God fulfilled by the Holy Spirit through a many membered body, the breast plate with the twelve stones of Israel, multiplied by the two stones of fire, one stone representing the law, one representing grace, together atlast. Both the twelve Sons of natural Israel and the twelve apostles of Spiritual Israel together seeing "eye to eye".

It is written, "let all things be established with two or three witnesses". I've looked and never have I seen the term, "two or more" being used. Interestingly, even when Jesus says, "where two or three are gathered together in my name". What if four are there? I'm thinking Jesus was referring to witnesses other then singular persons. The OT is a witness, the NT is a witness. Paul mentions in Romans 11, about the great cloud of witnesses, yet he puts them all as one witness "a cloud". Saying, "they without us, the second witness, cannot be made perfect (enter into the Holiest). I would suggest, neither can we. Christ always appears in the "midst", from between the "two". Once the two see eye to eye Christ appears in full glory, i.e. mount ot tranformation.

Isaiah 52:8
Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.


I say all that to offer a view of where I'm at, I appreciate any clarity, correction, rebuke and agreements you may offer.

[Barry]

Hey Eric,
Here are my present views:
Hope I'm not too long winded.

Water Baptism:
The baptism in water mirrored the washing of the priests of the old system. The Christians were dieing with Christ in baptism and where priests outwardly to the whole of the "harvest".

This baptism was like entering the "ark" like Noah and his family did in preparation for the Flood in which 8 souls were saved through water.
Now that the "parousia" has already taken place in that the 70 AD destruction of the temple and Jerusalem came as a "Flood" water baptism no longer has this "transitional" or "ark" meaning. It is of course still an "option" for those who wish to still observe a meaningful observance for personal reasons.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit:
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the "outpouring" of the Holy Spirit which did take place at Pentecost. Such is not to be confused with the descending of the Holy Spirit or the coming down of the Holy Spirit which did happen both in the old testament and also in the new testament times post Pentecost.

The one time pouring forth of the Holy spirit was without measure and was a pouring forth upon all flesh, including the Gentiles.
It was a one time event and made the Spirit avalible for indwelling when one believed.
The Holy Spirit at Pentecost was then poured forth all flesh including the Gentiles. This is what Peter understood when the Spirit came upon Cornelius and he spoke in tongues.
In the case the miraculous proved the spiritual none visible as it had at Pentecost when the visible proved the none visible which they did "see and hear".
However the one did not define the other. The descending of the Holy Spirit was a multi time occurrence in both old testament and Post Pentecost time while the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was a one time event upon all for all flesh.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was done by Jesus only, and done only after He was exalted to the right hand of God.

Jhn 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet [given]; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
{To empower them and thus show that the Holy Spirit at Pentecost had been poured forth upon all flesh, including the Gentiles}
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because {this proved} that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost {At Pentecost}.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

And so water baptism could not be forbidden to the Gentiles because the Spirit had at Penticost been poured forth upon even the Gentiles.

The Baptism of fire:
The baptism of fire is the end of the old covenant in AD 70.

Christ performed both salvation and judgment. Both the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of Fire.

Notice the consistency of the following texts:

Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luk 3:17 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

Mar 1:7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
Mar 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Mark does not mention fire baptism and so does not mention the coming Judgment.

Jhn 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Jhn 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Jhn 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
John does not mention fire baptism and so does not mention the coming Judgment.

So in the 2 texts where "fire baptism" are mentioned fire Judgement is also explained. Where the other 2 texts mention only Holy Spirit baptism there is likewise no mention of Judgement.

Fire Baptism was the "hell" or "Gehenna" Judgement of the ending of the old covenant in AD 70. This is when the old covenant creature was historically finished with. Everything that they had tried to gain that they thought was important like self-righteousness and outward recognition and everything that went with it was taken from them because their holy city and temple were taken from them.

This was part of the result of the "parousia" that was promised.

This ended the old covenant age or world. This is when the "elements" of the old covenant "heavens and earth" were burnt up and also all the "works therein".

All these thing took place in the first century. As Jesus had said, "there are some standing here that will not taste death until the see" these things. This was the terminal generation.
We are now in the "new age".

Blessings Barry

[ericv]

Thanks for that Barry, would like to dig a bit deeper in the "baptism of fire" at a later date, getting ready for work. It's been good, a real blessing....thanks.

[Barry]

Thanks for that Barry, would like to dig a bit deeper in the "baptism of fire" at a later date, getting ready for work. It's been good, a real blessing....thanks.

Look forward to the fellowship Eric. Even if we may not agree on everything.
Also, feel free to fellowship in our Chat thread.
Don't the music thread and movie thread.

Blessings Barry