Mark
04-22-2006, 10:42 PM
Hello,
My name is Mark. I am 44 years old and I live in Lompoc, CA with
my wife of 14 years, Judy. We homeschool our three children: Karalynn, Devin, and Mylon. We attend a Nazarene church where we also lead a home study group on Wednesdays and help out on Sundays with the children's ministry. I am an electrical engineer employed at Vandenberg AFB where I evaluate the various sensor systems supporting missile launches. We moved to California five years ago, partly to escape the congestion of Colorado Springs, CO (hey that ought to raise some eyebrows) and also to be closer to family. We are now enjoying the beautiful (but expensive) central coast of California and an 11 minute commute to work.
My exodus from mainstream evangelicalism began in 2001 - after the Y2K fiasco. (ok so that doesn't fit with attending a Nazarene church does it - If anyone asks, we are not members and I don't admit to being evangelical. Forgive me for being a don't ask, don't tell PU.) I was pretty PO'd with the way the evangelicals were handling (helping to create) the hysteria. So I decided to dig in to the Bible prophecies and come up with my own answers. I tried to push my pre-conceived ideas aside (that's impossible of course) and start out with a fresh slate. So I went through the whole bible and cut-and-pasted all the eschatological passages I could find
into a single WORD document, and then I read it from end to end. My first thought was, "Why does the Bible end before the final climax of the story occurs?" Wouldn't the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 AD have seemed to have been a big deal to at least somebody - anybody?
I vaguely recalled that most scholars put John's death somewhere near 90 AD, and I wondered, "So why doesn't he or anyone else ever even mention it?" Nothing? What's up with that? That would have been an extremely important event and to simply leave it out seemed to be very strange indeed - especially for John if he were writing the Revelation afterward. (Can anyone say "smoking gun?")
I also remembered that someone had told me that the Catholics believed that Nero was the antichrist - which at that time I thought was absurd. But in my little end-times summary one little detail seemed to scream for my attention - what was far off for the prophet Daniel was near, at the door, in
Revelation. How could this be?
Colorado Springs was pretty much innundated with 'prophetic' ministry during that period, and their exercise in completely missing the boat on Y2K motivated me to pursue the eschatology question. Don't get me wrong, they had some good things to say and some good ideas, but they shouldn't have tried to pass themselves off as teachers.
By that time I had already been distancing myself from my evangelical peers by asking a simple question, "How much do you have to know about Jesus in order to go to Heaven?" I had also been asking God questions like, "Where does grace end? Where is the line that puts
you beyond grace once you step over it?" I felt that God's answer to me was, "I dare you to find it!"
All around me people were saying that judgment was coming on America for our apostasy and sin. We deserved it. It was predicted. We were in the end times. But this didn't square with what I understood of the love of Jesus and the Father. All I saw was the elder son accusing the prodigal. For me, God was not mad - at anyone. They're talking whipping and all I see is a gold ring.
So I consulted the Universal Orb of Knowledge and typed something like 'AD 70 Nero.' And somewhere among the links I found the Preterist Archives. I read and read and felt that someone had been reading my mind. There was actually a word to describe the absurd conclusion I was coming to. In February of 2001 I joined the Preterist Club on Yahoo and jumped into the conversation - agreeing and disagreeing without intimidation or fear of offending God. Sure, I made mistakes. I spewed a few flames - said a few things I really didn't believe just to get a rise out of people.
In May of '01 we made the move to California. I told my wife that I really didn't care what kind of Church we went to as long as they loved Jesus and didn't try to control people. We were charismatics and had seen the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives, miraculous healings, the working
of his gifts in our lives. But my questions - and answers - were already making her nervous. I suggested to our pastor that if he really wanted to attract sinners to the church why not ask sinners to play on the worship team. That would be pretty cutting edge - a gay person on the worship team. He was actually open to it. It was cool.
Then we moved. I actually began to sense an urgency to exit Colo.Spgs. ASAP. Economically, that was right-on. If we had waited a few months we would have never been able to afford to move. Housing in CA was still in our range - but not for long. We found a life-giving Nazarene church. I thought they were supposed to be legalistic - but hey - California was supposed to have all the traffic and weirdos, and Colorado was supposed to be a mountain paradise. Things aint always so.
After the move 911 happened. Some well respected leaders began postulating that we may alredy have entered the 7-year tribulation period. Of one thing I was certain: they were wrong. They didn't have a clue about what they were talking about. I might also be wrong, but at least I didn't
have to feel ashamed of it. Everybody else was wrong too. What does it matter whether your ERROR is orthodox or unorthodox?
I was getting Charisma magazine and received the issue announcing Carlton Pearson's fall from grace for heretical teaching on Universal Reconciliation. I went to his website and read. He made a lot of sense. Somewhere along the way I stumbled onto www.tentmaker.org. That
answered more questions. I used the internet to compare arguments on Calvinism and Arminianism.
I didn't have a lot of experience with Calvinism till I entered the Preterist conversation. There was a group espousing reformed eschatology. It didn't sit well with me because they seemed to be really legalistic about the proper way to 'do' church. Then they would throw in something about
election and such. (Obviously, some people were into this preterist thing to sell books and build empires. I saw enough of that in Colorado Springs.) So I delved into that question for a while. I have now concluded that the best way to understand grace is to let the Calvinists and the Arminians debate each other. I was on jury duty in November. The lawyers should have traded sides - that's how bad they were. I say just let each side of eternal torment keep talking. They'll shoot themselves in the foot - dig their own graves.
Is God really so foolish as to paint Himself into a corner with no option but to torture billions and billions of people forever and ever and ever. He is obviously more creative than that. One thing the evangelicals did say that resonated was, "God can do anything but fail."
We go to a good church. Of course they believe you need to say that prayer and get baptized to make sure you don't go to Hell. They see a world that will get worse until Jesus comes. Of course that bugs me, but I'm not going to 'fix' it. Maybe they think we are strange because none of our children are baptized yet. We are not members but we lead a bible study, we like to worship God and pray for people. Our kids actually love Jesus. We like to really dig in and see what the Bible says. And we want to minister to those outside (and inside) the church who don't have a vital relationship with Christ. We don't go out of our way to share our eschatology with them or tell them they are wrong about Hell, but we have had some close calls.
I'm up front with the pastor or anyone who asks, but I don't feel the need to make issues of these 'non-essentials'. Maybe there isn't a lot in their statement of faith we agree with, but I imagine a lot of members don't even know enough about what it says to either agree or disagree. They're dabbling with the 'emerging church' conversation right now. It's only a matter of time - things are changing. I'm content to focus on God's goodness until something more God-oriented emerges. We are learning how to navigate the waters to contribute something positive to our evangelical friends while at the same time providing a little toxic relief to the outsiders who are being told the world is coming to an end and they are going to hell. We are learning to be Jesus to the neighbor kid who said the prayer to ask Jesus into his heart but still prays to 'Buddha' because he's known him longer,
and our Jewish friends are tired of being told they are going to Hell if they
don't accept Jesus.
It's just nice to know there are others out there like us whom we can spill our guts to when we feel overwhelmed - people who understand how lonely this road can be at times. We are not asking God to take us out. Just give us his comfort, his presence - and a few encouraging friends. If you need a label you can tentatively put me down as a 98% Chalcedon Compliant Full Preterist Charismatic Universal Reconciliationist. You can put Judy down as a Scared Confused Lover of Jesus with a very strange husband. You can put our kids down - for Bed - please.
My name is Mark. I am 44 years old and I live in Lompoc, CA with
my wife of 14 years, Judy. We homeschool our three children: Karalynn, Devin, and Mylon. We attend a Nazarene church where we also lead a home study group on Wednesdays and help out on Sundays with the children's ministry. I am an electrical engineer employed at Vandenberg AFB where I evaluate the various sensor systems supporting missile launches. We moved to California five years ago, partly to escape the congestion of Colorado Springs, CO (hey that ought to raise some eyebrows) and also to be closer to family. We are now enjoying the beautiful (but expensive) central coast of California and an 11 minute commute to work.
My exodus from mainstream evangelicalism began in 2001 - after the Y2K fiasco. (ok so that doesn't fit with attending a Nazarene church does it - If anyone asks, we are not members and I don't admit to being evangelical. Forgive me for being a don't ask, don't tell PU.) I was pretty PO'd with the way the evangelicals were handling (helping to create) the hysteria. So I decided to dig in to the Bible prophecies and come up with my own answers. I tried to push my pre-conceived ideas aside (that's impossible of course) and start out with a fresh slate. So I went through the whole bible and cut-and-pasted all the eschatological passages I could find
into a single WORD document, and then I read it from end to end. My first thought was, "Why does the Bible end before the final climax of the story occurs?" Wouldn't the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 AD have seemed to have been a big deal to at least somebody - anybody?
I vaguely recalled that most scholars put John's death somewhere near 90 AD, and I wondered, "So why doesn't he or anyone else ever even mention it?" Nothing? What's up with that? That would have been an extremely important event and to simply leave it out seemed to be very strange indeed - especially for John if he were writing the Revelation afterward. (Can anyone say "smoking gun?")
I also remembered that someone had told me that the Catholics believed that Nero was the antichrist - which at that time I thought was absurd. But in my little end-times summary one little detail seemed to scream for my attention - what was far off for the prophet Daniel was near, at the door, in
Revelation. How could this be?
Colorado Springs was pretty much innundated with 'prophetic' ministry during that period, and their exercise in completely missing the boat on Y2K motivated me to pursue the eschatology question. Don't get me wrong, they had some good things to say and some good ideas, but they shouldn't have tried to pass themselves off as teachers.
By that time I had already been distancing myself from my evangelical peers by asking a simple question, "How much do you have to know about Jesus in order to go to Heaven?" I had also been asking God questions like, "Where does grace end? Where is the line that puts
you beyond grace once you step over it?" I felt that God's answer to me was, "I dare you to find it!"
All around me people were saying that judgment was coming on America for our apostasy and sin. We deserved it. It was predicted. We were in the end times. But this didn't square with what I understood of the love of Jesus and the Father. All I saw was the elder son accusing the prodigal. For me, God was not mad - at anyone. They're talking whipping and all I see is a gold ring.
So I consulted the Universal Orb of Knowledge and typed something like 'AD 70 Nero.' And somewhere among the links I found the Preterist Archives. I read and read and felt that someone had been reading my mind. There was actually a word to describe the absurd conclusion I was coming to. In February of 2001 I joined the Preterist Club on Yahoo and jumped into the conversation - agreeing and disagreeing without intimidation or fear of offending God. Sure, I made mistakes. I spewed a few flames - said a few things I really didn't believe just to get a rise out of people.
In May of '01 we made the move to California. I told my wife that I really didn't care what kind of Church we went to as long as they loved Jesus and didn't try to control people. We were charismatics and had seen the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives, miraculous healings, the working
of his gifts in our lives. But my questions - and answers - were already making her nervous. I suggested to our pastor that if he really wanted to attract sinners to the church why not ask sinners to play on the worship team. That would be pretty cutting edge - a gay person on the worship team. He was actually open to it. It was cool.
Then we moved. I actually began to sense an urgency to exit Colo.Spgs. ASAP. Economically, that was right-on. If we had waited a few months we would have never been able to afford to move. Housing in CA was still in our range - but not for long. We found a life-giving Nazarene church. I thought they were supposed to be legalistic - but hey - California was supposed to have all the traffic and weirdos, and Colorado was supposed to be a mountain paradise. Things aint always so.
After the move 911 happened. Some well respected leaders began postulating that we may alredy have entered the 7-year tribulation period. Of one thing I was certain: they were wrong. They didn't have a clue about what they were talking about. I might also be wrong, but at least I didn't
have to feel ashamed of it. Everybody else was wrong too. What does it matter whether your ERROR is orthodox or unorthodox?
I was getting Charisma magazine and received the issue announcing Carlton Pearson's fall from grace for heretical teaching on Universal Reconciliation. I went to his website and read. He made a lot of sense. Somewhere along the way I stumbled onto www.tentmaker.org. That
answered more questions. I used the internet to compare arguments on Calvinism and Arminianism.
I didn't have a lot of experience with Calvinism till I entered the Preterist conversation. There was a group espousing reformed eschatology. It didn't sit well with me because they seemed to be really legalistic about the proper way to 'do' church. Then they would throw in something about
election and such. (Obviously, some people were into this preterist thing to sell books and build empires. I saw enough of that in Colorado Springs.) So I delved into that question for a while. I have now concluded that the best way to understand grace is to let the Calvinists and the Arminians debate each other. I was on jury duty in November. The lawyers should have traded sides - that's how bad they were. I say just let each side of eternal torment keep talking. They'll shoot themselves in the foot - dig their own graves.
Is God really so foolish as to paint Himself into a corner with no option but to torture billions and billions of people forever and ever and ever. He is obviously more creative than that. One thing the evangelicals did say that resonated was, "God can do anything but fail."
We go to a good church. Of course they believe you need to say that prayer and get baptized to make sure you don't go to Hell. They see a world that will get worse until Jesus comes. Of course that bugs me, but I'm not going to 'fix' it. Maybe they think we are strange because none of our children are baptized yet. We are not members but we lead a bible study, we like to worship God and pray for people. Our kids actually love Jesus. We like to really dig in and see what the Bible says. And we want to minister to those outside (and inside) the church who don't have a vital relationship with Christ. We don't go out of our way to share our eschatology with them or tell them they are wrong about Hell, but we have had some close calls.
I'm up front with the pastor or anyone who asks, but I don't feel the need to make issues of these 'non-essentials'. Maybe there isn't a lot in their statement of faith we agree with, but I imagine a lot of members don't even know enough about what it says to either agree or disagree. They're dabbling with the 'emerging church' conversation right now. It's only a matter of time - things are changing. I'm content to focus on God's goodness until something more God-oriented emerges. We are learning how to navigate the waters to contribute something positive to our evangelical friends while at the same time providing a little toxic relief to the outsiders who are being told the world is coming to an end and they are going to hell. We are learning to be Jesus to the neighbor kid who said the prayer to ask Jesus into his heart but still prays to 'Buddha' because he's known him longer,
and our Jewish friends are tired of being told they are going to Hell if they
don't accept Jesus.
It's just nice to know there are others out there like us whom we can spill our guts to when we feel overwhelmed - people who understand how lonely this road can be at times. We are not asking God to take us out. Just give us his comfort, his presence - and a few encouraging friends. If you need a label you can tentatively put me down as a 98% Chalcedon Compliant Full Preterist Charismatic Universal Reconciliationist. You can put Judy down as a Scared Confused Lover of Jesus with a very strange husband. You can put our kids down - for Bed - please.