Who had the Scriptures??

[Robert]

Katherines thread inspired me here. I have been wondering about the verses where Paul talks about studying the Scriptures to be a workman correctly handling the Word of Truth, to be like Bereans, the Scriptures being discussed were the OT. Who all had access, and who had understanding??? Until Jerome invented the printing press there had to be limited availability, so how did timothy get access to the Scriptures Paul told him to study?? A lot of christians place such strong emphasis on bible study,quiet time and prayer, but until Luther and the Reformation, everyone had to rely on the Catholic Church authorities to instruct them in interpretation. This just makes mecontemplate the whole subject of what is Scripture and how the canon can be accepted as it has been. Thanks for the inspiration katherine!!!! Hope to hear lots from everyone:D:cool:

Robert

[Barry]

Hey Robert,

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Act 1:16 Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Act 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.


Act 26:21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill [me].
Act 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
Act 26:23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

1Cr 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The Judaizers were not using the law, lawfully. They did not teach that they themselves were "under sin" through the law. They like the Jews of John chapter 8 did not accept that they were slaves of sin. Which was a conclusion of the law. They did not accurately understand the Gentile context that the scriptures had prophesied. And so were trying to bring the Gentiles under Israel's "natural" things, instead of Israel's spiritual things. So they wrongly preached circumcision to the Gentiles.

1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully;

The Judaizers were not "handling the Word of Truth" correctly. They miss used the Old Testament scriptures to their own advantage. This is the major problem in the New Testament setting and is the predominate focus of 1st and 2nd Timothy and the placing of qualified "elders" or "pastors" in Ephesus and the other Churches to help with the situation.
These scriptures were widely avalible as copies as this was the religion of the Jews.

The writings of the Apostles were also avablible but probably not nearly as common at this time.
Just some thoughts,
Barry

[Me Again]

Hey Robert,
the ancient Hebrews were meticulous at copying the scriptures. It was all scrolls that were available largely through the local synagogues. Even Jesus read Isaiah IN the synagogue, not while sitting in his house in a quiet time with the Father. Don't get me wrong, he prayed frequently...so he had his quiet time. But it was more "praying without ceasing," rather than the kneel in the corner and agonize, if you know what I mean.

The Ethiopian Eunuch had a scroll of Isaiah in his chariot when Philip found him. So, somehow folks got a hold of these scriptures; but most likely it was the extremely wealthy that could do that.

I agree with you. My wife makes a big deal about us reading the scriptures every day to our kids. Doesn't always happen, but I do it - mostly to keep the peace. I do want my kids to know God, but I think our lives are better epistles than words written thousands of years ago. They are important, no doubt; but Paul spoke of the believers being his epistles.

BTW, Guttenberg invented the printing press. Jerome created the Vulgate. Both were significant to the move of the spirit. Keep in mind that within a generation of Guttenberg, the Reformation started. I think we now have the same thing with the Internet. The internet is our Guttenberg press. A new reformation has begun; one of fulfilled eschatology and fulfilled redemption.

Keep the faith baby.

[Robert]

Barry and Ed- awesome info!!! Barry all you shared of the role and function of the Scriptures and how the Jews mishandled them follows so symmetrically!!! As i read what you wrote I could just see Jesus confronting them of the wrongness they were doing.

Ed- oh man of course, I knew as i typed it that Jerome made the latin vulgate but somehow i forgot gutenbergs name DOH my history professor would slap me upside the head lol Very interesting to realize that there were so many copies of the Scriptures available back then on scrolls & parchments.

[Me Again]

Well, and we have another thread where we are talking about the Dead Sea Scrolls, which have been invaluable for a better understanding of what went on back in those days. They certainly had a different view of scripture than our most recent conservative colleagues.

I would love to do an entire class just on archeological finds of biblical material. I once tried to read the Biblical Archeology Review (thinking I was smart enough - LOL). Could hardly get past the first article. Once I get my 5 PhDs in Sacred Literature, Ancient History, Anthropology, Theology and Yo-Yo stringing, I think I'll try reading it again.

[Barry]

Robert: I have been wondering about the verses where Paul talks about studying the Scriptures to be a workman correctly handling the Word of Truth, to be like Bereans, the Scriptures being discussed were the OT.


Robert: Barry all you shared of the role and function of the Scriptures and how the Jews mishandled them follows so symmetrically

On another thread we were discussing some points about revelation.
We see the same focus in Revelation as well. Those "who say they are {the real} Jews but do lie" were the Judaizers. The predominate focus of the issues in the 7 churches is the Judaizing influence and movement.
This is why Revelation was written very much to the Gentile churches. The tension between old and new was (doctrinally) fought very much among the Gentiles.
The approaching, "Coming" of Christ was as much upon the "seven churches" as it was upon Jerusalem itself. The coming wrath and destruction, destroyed an "identity" as much as it did the temple or a the city.

Just some stray thoughts, but was thinking about the setting of the time and the context in which the New Testament scriptures were written.


Ed: Keep in mind that within a generation of Guttenberg, the Reformation started. I think we now have the same thing with the Internet. The internet is our Guttenberg press. A new reformation has begun; one of fulfilled eschatology and fulfilled redemption.

Really great point imo.

Barry

[~Katherine]

I thought about having another thread ... but then thought naa.

So here's my question: I read somewhere, online of course, about a year ago that Paul and Peter led in the transiton, the great comission, one in Jerusalem, the other in Rome. I'm not sure of the history but it seems I remember that at least Paul was slated to be the high priest before he converted to follow Christ and I think by the time of his conversion Jesus had already been crucified. Peter had learned at Jesus' feet and Jesus said upon the rock that was Peter's insight into Jesus' identity and purpose, he would build his Church.

Oh and Ed I think that the internet is very much like our Gutenberg press, sort of like seeing the Matrix that we believed in more for what it is than we did before since the access to all kinds of things on the net is pretty amazing.

[~Katherine]

Ok so what's my question: does anyone have info about Paul and Peter as to their roles? Christianity has used the "upon this rock" verse to build lots of things I don't think were intended.

~Katherine

[Barry]

This won't answer your historical questions Katherine but it might touch on some points from the sidelines.

Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
{That is the Grace that was given to Peter. The "rock" however that the church was built upon was the meaning of the sentence in question that Christ was the Son of God.}

Gal 2:9 And when James {the brother of Jesus}, Cephas {another name for Peter}, and John, who seemed to be pillars {"above all others"}, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen {Gentles}, and they unto the circumcision.
Gal 2:10 Only [they would] that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James {Not from James himself but from "Jerusalem". This is a metonymy. James was at this time pretty much the predominate leader in Jerusalem. The expression "came from James" is an expression of coming from Jerusalem where James was then the predominant leader. We see this predominance also in Acts where James meets Paul.}, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. {the effect of the Judaizers}

Just some thoughts,
Barry

[~Katherine]

Ok I have another question or just a little curiosity maybe. There are instances of people being marked to separate them. Circumcision. The mark of Cain.

Does anyone have an idea if these were somehow connected in a biblical theme?

[Me Again]

I am one who believes that circumcision of the flesh was actually "the mark of the beast" (I've explained this elsewhere on this forum). It delineated those whom God would deal with differently than with others. Circumcision was replaced by circumcision of the heart. Cain's Mark differentiated him from his brothers and sisters as one to whom God's wrath had come; yet, it protected Cain from those who would seek his harm. This was the shadow for the mark of the beast.

Understanding that "satan had been bound" so as not to "deceive the nations" or tribes of Israel, Israel had been differentiated for protection by God. What they saw as a sign of blessing (circumcision of the flesh) was actually a sign of delineation. God was going to bring wrath upon them, but not before he made provision for their salvation. Through them, those who had killed their brother (Abel and Christ), the world would be saved (by the resurrected Christ, Seth). Cain served a purpose, just as Israel did. The mark signified that in one way or another.

[Amie]

Ok I have another question or just a little curiosity maybe. There are instances of people being marked to separate them. Circumcision. The mark of Cain.

Does anyone have an idea if these were somehow connected in a biblical theme?

While I think that Ed's observation is intriguing, per the Hebrew language a "mark" was something that a person aimed at. If you held a bow and arrow taught and point, the bullseye would be your "mark". And again, as a noun it will have had a function. A hunter/gatherer might see the mark as the thing that he would feed his family with. Come to think of it, circumcision would have a function.

Amie

[~Katherine]

While I think that Ed's observation is intriguing, per the Hebrew language a "mark" was something that a person aimed at. If you held a bow and arrow taught and point, the bullseye would be your "mark". And again, as a noun it will have had a function. A hunter/gatherer might see the mark as the thing that he would feed his family with. Come to think of it, circumcision would have a function.

Amie

So do marks make a person into a target? Like a post-it on my back that says, "Kick me here" with an arrow pointing down?

Oh yeh I'm :595: