How long is "temporary" punishment?

[Chaela]

I don't know if this has been asked before, but it's a good question.

I'm involved in a discussion on another Christian forum and a Christian who definitely does not believe in universal redemption asked the following question about Post-Mortem punisment (and it's a good one, I think):


I see lots of people calling their punishment "temporary"...
but, does any Universalist here have ANY idea how long*
"temporary" actually is*on an eternal scale??

If 1000 years is as 1 day to the Lord.... ????

For all you know, temporary can mean 400 billion years long...
How "loving" and "merciful" is that?*


Now, I know my gut response is that "Hey, whether it's an hour, a day, a year, or 400 billion years, at least there's an end to it," but I don't think that's gonna fly. I mean, the question definitely solidifies how senseless unending torment would be if 400 billion years would do it, but from a human perspective I don't think there's much difference between 400 billion years and endlessness. Heck, depending on what the suffering entails, five minutes can be too long. :uhh:

Any thoughts? :confused:

PS: I realize that if one believes that all judgment is past that this would address this concern immediately (at least for universalists,lol!), in which case I would love advice on how to show this to the questioner. I'm leaning more and more towards believing that there is no post-mortem punishment to anticipate for anyone, but I think I need to do more homework on that point before I can debate it on the other forum. :o





.

[Me Again]

Chaela,
A couple of things: 1) the biblical universalists (BUs) of over a century ago agreed with the original BUs that there would be punishment, but it would not be endless; 2) how long did Jesus have to suffer for "the sin of the world"?, iow, if Jesus took all the sins of all the elect (no matter how you define that term), he should have spent a whole hell (pardon the pun) of a lot more time burning than was possible in those 3 days.

[Chaela]

Chaela,
A couple of things: 1) the biblical universalists (BUs) of over a century ago agreed with the original BUs that there would be punishment, but it would not be endless; 2) how long did Jesus have to suffer for "the sin of the world"?, iow, if Jesus took all the sins of all the elect (no matter how you define that term), he should have spent a whole hell (pardon the pun) of a lot more time burning than was possible in those 3 days.
Ah, good point! Thank you!
Though I think I know what their response to that will be, I'll remind them of this little detail! :D

[davo]

Hi Chaela… this might be one of those questions that is indeed rather moot depending on your particular take – for me personally I see NO "punishment" [whatever that actually means] for sin past Jesus' paying the price for it himself in full.

I DO see consequences in this life for our errant actions [sins], and wonder how/if there might be any consequences beyond this life relative to these – but again that is purely subjective and speculative musings on my part and probably based more off my own human weakness' that likes to pass judgement in terms of "fair/not fair" and yet is worlds apart from God's overarching gracious design.

So again… this question might mean something to universalists but for this pantelist such is not the case.

[Me Again]

Being a pantelist as well, I want to make some clarification. Some folks believe that I believe in post-mortem punishment - but I do not. What I have stated at various times in the past is that when "the unbeliever" sees God, there may indeed be (and I think that there will) a sort of "regret" for lack of a better term. Sort of like a brief despair when realizing that one missed such a vital and wonderful part of one's existence. This grieving process will be temporary and brief, and God will have nothing to do with it - it will all be internal to the individual.

Of course, depending on one's "faith" believing people may indeed experience this same regret - I half expect to; not because I've done anything exceptionally wrong, but simply because I don't feel I've ever truly given God credit for being as good as He is.

All of us will, in a brief time following this realization, then experience the profound love that God has for us. That grief will transform into almost inexpressible joy. It is THAT joy, in my opinion, that will carry us, if you will, to the very throne of God in worship and adoration of a god beyond description - One Who can only be described as LOVE.

[davo]

Yes Ed, joy unspeakable yet inifinitely done so... :clap2:

[Barry]

Good points.
Punishment always served a purpose even under the law.

But take a look at this:
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
The law had dominion over the man as long as the man lived. The law does not have dominion over post mortem continuity, whatever that might be.

It was transgression that was punished. Punishment had nothing to do with post-mortem continuity. It did have something to do with how someone went down in history that being "this life". The effect beyond death remained in the temporal in so far as the topic being the effect here.

"So the smoke of their torments shall rise forever and ever"
"The worm that never dies"
Are historical references that related to how the legacy would be seen.

If we see then that the point of salvation was not to get qualified to get to heaven, then everything gets framed differently.

People were getting saved from being so religious that they could not get along with anyone. :)
Like the Romans.

The Romans were used "historically" to bring about the visible end to a system. That end went down in history.
The axe was already then laid to the root of the trees in the time of John the Baptist.
And so the chaff was burned up with unquenchable fire.

Whenever someone buys into the concept that punishment is its own reason then they buy into the idea that God had no eventual benefit or purpose for it other than its own being. IMHO we land up with one hell of a concept of what God is like.

Of course we know that indoctrination plays the major role in these things. But that doesn't mean that such concepts are healthy.

Just some thoughts

Barry

[Tim B]

Well, I think, if there is any post-mortem punishment, Jesus seems to make it pretty clear when you'd get out:

Luke 12:58-59 (New International Version)

58As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."

Hey, at least it's infinitely better than Hell!

Also, did you know that according to the Old Testament it was wrong to whip a person (in punishment) more than 40 lashes? Otherwise it would be considered vengeful, and you'd be doing wrong to the one being punished. I think this is certainly interesting, especially considering it suggests that excessive punishment is WRONG. (So, once again, some infinite "Hell" hole would be immoral.)

[Me Again]

good point about the 40 lashes Tim. Thanks.

And I too have looked at that other passage as well. I think of it in terms of the destruction of Jerusalem, and not post-mortem; however, it certainly could be seen that way as well.

[sparrow]

Being a pantelist as well, I want to make some clarification. Some folks believe that I believe in post-mortem punishment - but I do not. What I have stated at various times in the past is that when "the unbeliever" sees God, there may indeed be (and I think that there will) a sort of "regret" for lack of a better term. Sort of like a brief despair when realizing that one missed such a vital and wonderful part of one's existence. This grieving process will be temporary and brief, and God will have nothing to do with it - it will all be internal to the individual.

Of course, depending on one's "faith" believing people may indeed experience this same regret - I half expect to; not because I've done anything exceptionally wrong, but simply because I don't feel I've ever truly given God credit for being as good as He is.

All of us will, in a brief time following this realization, then experience the profound love that God has for us. That grief will transform into almost inexpressible joy. It is THAT joy, in my opinion, that will carry us, if you will, to the very throne of God in worship and adoration of a god beyond description - One Who can only be described as LOVE.

This is how I see it, too.

[Barry]

This is how I see it, too.

Yes!
Punishment is for this life and is against the "consience" of the person being "punished".
The believer cannot be punished because the believer can only be taught something not condemned by something.

Adam in the garden could have learned a lot. Even corrected, maybe even disciplined. He was only "punished" when his consience took on a form of an independent human potential.

Just some thoughts
Barry