Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit

[Tim B]

Given pantelism and/or preterism, how should one take the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

Concordant Literal Version:

Mark 3:28

28 "Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming,
29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin" --
30 for they said, "An unclean spirit has he."

and

Matthew 12:31:

31 "Therefore I am saying to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be pardoned men, yet the blasphemy of the spirit shall not be pardoned.
32 And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending.

In Mark it's suggesting to only be not forgiven in the "eon" (or, I think, in the Old Covenant period), but Matthew says "nor that which is impending"? What does it mean "in that which is impending"? Is that the New Covenant?

How should this be understood, and is it applicable today? It's hard for me to trust absolutely in God's love/grace when I feel like there's a sin that I, or somebody else, could make some day and not be forgiven of. Although I'm beginning to doubt it's applicable to men today.

[Me Again]

Tim, I'm not sure how my answer will compare to others, but I believe that we have a misunderstanding of forgiveness. Let me point out that the same gospel writers inform us that if we do not forgive our debtors, God will not forgive us.

Are we to believe that our eternal salvation then hinges upon our forgiveness towards everyone who's done us wrong? Can you imagine how fragile our faith would be if we had to constantly try to remember every single person towards whom we hold a grudge? Any unforgiveness would surely cause us to be tormented forever in the fire that never consumes, where the worm never dies...

And the salvation in Christ alone would be undone.

So, with that in mind about forgiveness, we should remember that the warning came to those who testified that Jesus had a demon, and that's how he was doing all those wonderful things. Jesus warns them that they can say whatever they want about him, but NOT the holy spirit. That wouldn't be forgiven them...neither in that age, or the post-parousia age.

But forgiveness isn't about going to heaven...can't be based on what I pointed out before. It must be about "tormented until all the debt is paid." That's what it says about the man who was forgiven, but then didn't forgive a smaller debt owed to him. He was tormented...and so were those who didn't believe in Christ, and attributed his mighty works to a demon; thus, invalidating the work of God in the salvation of Israel. Israel remained, for the most part, hardened. That torment that they faced at the hands of the Romans was not overlooked by God, at no time did he regret tormenting those unbelievers who blasphemed the spirit of God, calling him Ba'al, and Be'elzebub.

The torment lasted through into the new age, as the entire carcass was consumed by Rome. The "eagle" picked at Israel's "flesh" (sarx) until she was totally consumed. Her torment was complete, because she was not forgiven...flesh couldn't be; only spirit.

Her blasphemy was punished, and the knowledge and import of that punishment spilled over into the new age. No one in their right mind would ever make that mistake again. No blaspheming the spirit for them. Nope, they knew better. But, they also, as believers in Christ, were blessed and a blessing to the entire world. For Israel's acceptance meant "life for the world," resurrection - the great harvest, that continues to this day.

I believe that there still is torment for unforgiveness...not endless torment, just until the forgiveness is given and therefore the debt paid. This means nothing in the eternal realm; this is merely the temporal realm in which we currently live. It will not affect us in the next.

[Barry]

Hey Tim,

Imagine the verses read exactly like this:
Mark 3:28
28 "Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming"

Matthew 12:31:
31 "Therefore I am saying to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be pardoned men.
32 And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him.

What would you think the verses were saying if they read as above?

Barry

[Tim B]

Hey Tim,

Imagine the verses read exactly like this:
Mark 3:28
28 "Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming"

Matthew 12:31:
31 "Therefore I am saying to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be pardoned men.
32 And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him.

What would you think the verses were saying if they read as above?

Barry

Umm... I'm not sure. :confused:

It would definitely be more pleasing though, if Jesus would have left it at that. Are you connecting the "sons of mankind" with the "Son of Mankind" for some reason?

[Barry]

Umm... I'm not sure. :confused:

It would definitely be more pleasing though, if Jesus would have left it at that. Are you connecting the "sons of mankind" with the "Son of Mankind" for some reason?

Hey Tim.
A few thoughts:
1) The "men" of this context was the men of that "generation". This is a first century phenomenon.

2) Perhaps we read more importance into the element that is not forgiven than into the elements that are forgiven.
These are amazing statements:
Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

a) Was Jesus serious about these statements of forgiveness? IMHO yes very serous. And this seriousness sets the backdrop for the exception.
b) Why then the exception? Why forgive everything but this?

The reason why "this" would not be forgiven is because it is historical. IE God will not erase your shame on an historical level from the demise that this idolatry would reveal.
This was part and parcel of an unfolding revelation.
God would not spare them from their part in this revelation and would not spare them from the historical record of it.
OTHER THAN THIS, ALL WOULD BE FORGIVEN.


Eze 16:61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.
Eze 16:62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I [am] the LORD:
Eze 16:63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

This was the worm that never dies historically.
The smoke of their torments written in history that rises forever and ever.

The destruction of the flesh (independent human potential), that the spirit (life) may be saved.
The self perceived image was destroyed. The "made with hands" identity that this formed through the independent human potential. God spoke directly to that "idol".
None of this has anything to do with post mortem continuity as we have been taught to think of it. It is about "history". It is about legacy. It is about "this life". And how this life would be changed by this historical revelation.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

All would be "forgiven" but the revelation would be left intact. That "hurts" as far as the "ego" is concerned.

The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was the denial of God's work at this time. That denial would go down in history even though all would be "forgiven".

Just an intro really to my view points but perhaps there is something that makes some sense here. :)


Barry

[Amie]

Tim,

I think that Rhonda Hafley did a pretty good job in addressing that verse here: http://www.womenbeyond.com/biblicalperspectives/unforgivablesin.html

Amie

[Tim B]

Hey Tim.
A few thoughts:
1) The "men" of this context was the men of that "generation". This is a first century phenomenon.

2) Perhaps we read more importance into the element that is not forgiven than into the elements that are forgiven.
These are amazing statements:
Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

a) Was Jesus serious about these statements of forgiveness? IMHO yes very serous. And this seriousness sets the backdrop for the exception.
b) Why then the exception? Why forgive everything but this?

The reason why "this" would not be forgiven is because it is historical. IE God will not erase your shame on an historical level from the demise that this idolatry would reveal.
This was part and parcel of an unfolding revelation.
God would not spare them from their part in this revelation and would not spare them from the historical record of it.
OTHER THAN THIS, ALL WOULD BE FORGIVEN.


Eze 16:61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.
Eze 16:62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I [am] the LORD:
Eze 16:63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

This was the worm that never dies historically.
The smoke of their torments written in history that rises forever and ever.

The destruction of the flesh (independent human potential), that the spirit (life) may be saved.
The self perceived image was destroyed. The "made with hands" identity that this formed through the independent human potential. God spoke directly to that "idol".
None of this has anything to do with post mortem continuity as we have been taught to think of it. It is about "history". It is about legacy. It is about "this life". And how this life would be changed by this historical revelation.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

All would be "forgiven" but the revelation would be left intact. That "hurts" as far as the "ego" is concerned.

The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was the denial of God's work at this time. That denial would go down in history even though all would be "forgiven".

Just an intro really to my view points but perhaps there is something that makes some sense here. :)


Barry

Hmm, I really like these thoughts. :)

So, do you think the sin can even be committed today?

Or, that, if it can, it won't be forgiven?

Also, on another note, do you think it would have been possible for the Pharisees to ask for forgiveness they had truly change their hearts, and follow after Jesus? - Jesus said that those who committed this sin were in danger of eonion punishment, but "in danger" suggests that one hasn't completely sealed his fate, otherwise it'd be more accurate to say "will absolutely suffer the penalty of this blasphemy." Could he have been simply saying, "If you continue in this state your sin will not be forgiven and will suffer an eonion punishment"?

And: Are ALL men NOW forgiven? I guess I'm still trying to catch onto all that Pantelism suggests. I've only read a few articles on it. xD

Also, on this subject, these thoughts come to mind:

1 John 1:

9if we may confess our sins, stedfast He is and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from every unrighteousness;

and 1 John 2:

2and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,

and Proverbs 10:12:

Proverbs 10:12 (New International Version)

12 Hatred stirs up dissension,
but love covers over all wrongs.

Sounds like Jesus couldn't have meant a literal never-ending un-forgiveness for that sin, only that if one continued in that sin, they simply wouldn't be forgiven for it (until they received their punishment). Otherwise a whole slew of verses should be tossed out the window.

So yours and/or Amie's thoughts seem to be just about dead on.

[Jotham]

...
All would be "forgiven" but the revelation would be left intact. That "hurts" as far as the "ego" is concerned.

The blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was the denial of God's work at this time. That denial would go down in history even though all would be "forgiven".

Just an intro really to my view points but perhaps there is something that makes some sense here...Thank you again Barry for your ability to share some of the deeper 'stuff' in a simple and well laid out manner. For myself your summary i've quoted really shed light on the topic for me.

Cheers,
Thom

[Tim B]

Tim,

I think that Rhonda Hafley did a pretty good job in addressing that verse here: http://www.womenbeyond.com/biblicalperspectives/unforgivablesin.html

Amie

Thanks Amie, this is also a good view on it!

Do you think all men are now forgiven?

I asked Berry too. But I figure I'd ask your thoughts. I'm still trying to grasp some of the ideas behind Pantelism. It's a fairly new thought to me. Well, in comparison to my 19-ish years of growing up in a more orthodox view of Christ, until I was shown the idea of the annihilation of the wicked. Which I didn't hold onto for long, as I ultimately came to believe in Universal Reconciliation, and that there's no such thing as "Hell" in the Bible.

[Amie]

Tim,

Forgiveness was, imo, about receiving a pardon through belief in Jesus's ability (and the consequences of that) rather than the then system (and the consequences of that). That system is no longer in place.

To me, there was never an issue or problem post mortem, problems sprung out of humanity not knowing God - who has been revealed now. I have an article which might help clarify where I am coming from: http://www.womenbeyond.com/biblicalperspectives/lastenemy.html

Love is without condition, and accepts every person else love will not have given them life to begin with imo.

What is your current view of hell in biblical context?

Amie

[Tim B]

Tim,

Forgiveness was, imo, about receiving a pardon through belief in Jesus's ability (and the consequences of that) rather than the then system (and the consequences of that). That system is no longer in place.

To me, there was never an issue or problem post mortem, problems sprung out of humanity not knowing God - who has been revealed now. I have an article which might help clarify where I am coming from: http://www.womenbeyond.com/biblicalperspectives/lastenemy.html

Love is without condition, and accepts every person else love will not have given them life to begin with imo.

What is your current view of hell in biblical context?

Amie

Hmm, I'm a bit confused on your answer, but I haven't read the article yet, so I'll let you know if I'm still confused after that. lol

As far as Hell goes: I just don't think it's Biblical. The words translated as Hell in the Old Testament and New Testament were actually, in the original Hebrew and Greek, Sheol (the grave/pit), Hades (the equivalent of Sheol as "the grave/pit/unseen"), Gehenna (which was the trash dump outside of Jerusalem, also known as "The Valley of the Son of Hinnom," where they burned trash and often times criminals after they'd been killed), and Tartarus (which is a Greek mythical reference to the area where wicked angels are/were held captive till "judgement," or some might even say, "correction").

Jesus never threatened Hell or damnation in the same sense most orthodox Christian's believe today. Every man, according to the Old Testament goes to Sheol/Hades (whether "good" or "bad"). Gehenna was never mentioned before Jesus' time, from Philo the Jew, as a place of after-life punishment. Neither did Josephus who was after Jesus' time period. Although Josephous did state the Pharisees believed in eternal punishment (but NOT stated to be in Gehenna). So it seems, that Gehenna was simply understood to be a shameful place, despised by Jews, and actually was some of their final physical destination, after the rampage by the Romans. (The dead carcasses of the Jews would be thrown into the valley, that is, Gehenna and burned.) So to take part in the fire of Gehenna, or the judgement of Gehenna would have simply meant the coming judgement and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

As far as separating the goats and the sheep in Matthew 25, it's interesting to note that the oft rendered text "eternal punishment" is actually "age-lasting/age-abiding correction". So whatever this punishment, and for whomever it was, it wasn't some eternal torture chamber, nor was it annihilation.

So, basically, as far as Hell goes, I don't believe in it. I think there could possibly be some sort of after-life correction God has people go through, but I'm beginning to drop that idea too. I think the only punishment we might receive would be to stand before Him and be ashamed of our sins (although I don't know that He Himself will point the finger at anybody). Ever hear of Near Death Experiences? Most of the people, when they go through these, have a life review AND see a being of great light. Most people state that while they felt ashamed of their actions, the being of light never accused them, or put them down, but had complete sympathy and love for them. I think it might be like that after we die. :D

At least... that's what I'm hoping for.

[Barry]

Hey Tim,
Here are my views:


So, do you think the sin can even be committed today?
The blaspheming of the Holy Spirit dealt with the transition of the ages as two covenant began to "compete" so to speak.

I have a relative that is a Church of Christ Preacher and is a "futurist" as a "partial preterist". Even from his position he sees it as a first century phenomenon.

Here is the context.

Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? {That generation, that time}
Mat 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast [them] out? therefore they shall be your judges.
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Mat 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? {The cross} and then he will spoil his house. {In the end of the age}
Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. {IE of this generation}
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit.
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men {IE of this generation} shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Mat 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, {Historically speaking} and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; {as recorded in biblical history} and, behold, a greater than Jonas here. {here in this generation}
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, {historically speaking} and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth {as recorded in biblical history} to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here.


Or, that, if it can, it won't be forgiven?
The point being is this is the transition of the ages. This is when everything is being made new.

There are some points that can be extrapolated from this. Better to be proactive and kingdom oriented than oppressive and ego driven. Hitler's legacy will continue. Love impacts on a "spirit" level.

We cannot however have their judgment or their inheritance or their reward or their loss or their destruction of the flesh. We are rather the benefactors of this eternal inheritance. But how we use it or apply it is still lived here in "this life". And that has importance.



Also, on this subject, these thoughts come to mind:

1 John 1:

9if we may confess our sins, stedfast He is and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from every unrighteousness;

My understanding of this verse is that it was confessions of sins at conversion. It is set over-against those Jews who said they were not servants of sin and so then "had no sin".

Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jhn 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Jhn 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: the Son abideth ever.
Jhn 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Jhn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, [B]If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Jhn 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Jhn 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Jhn 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

So then:

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, {as the Jews did, who walked in the darkness} we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

"If we confess our sins" is set over-against "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar". As the Jews did. This is talking about being converted. As here:
Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mar 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

As opposed to this:
Mat 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
Mat 21:26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
Mat 21:27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it], repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.


About forgiveness, IMHO, yes it is all forgiven. Even for them that turned in this time who were previously blasphemous. There was however, [I]generally speaking a "hardening".
Hardening takes place when the self perceived self comes under "threat". Christ threatened their identity. This sent them into "self preservation mode".
Like Pharaohs ego was threatened when is authority was threatened. Thus he was "hardened".
The Jews were Hardened when their temple and their city were threatened. They were hardened when the Gentiles or "uncircumcised" became Christians and then claimed the "son ship". ECT.


1 John 2:

2and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,

Indeed! All sins were forgiven.
The "unforgiveness" concerning the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is IMHO set apart from forgiveness of sins.

It is like saying, "God will forgive you but history will not". This is IMHO the "worm that never dies". A real killer for the ego driven identity that was about to "come to nothing".

I see the same thing right here:

1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish {are perishing in the identity of this wisdom} foolishness; but unto us which are saved {from the catastrophic ending of this age} it is the power of God.
1Cr 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Cr 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world {the old covenant age}? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world{the old covenant age}?


1Cr 2:2 For I determined not to know {to know no other wisdom} any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
1Cr 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
1Cr 2:4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Cr 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world {old covenant age}, nor of the princes of this world, {old covenant age} that come to nought: {"are coming to nothing"}

1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; {that which was temporal and so combustible and belonged to that age as per the precedent of types and figures}
1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest {and thus will go down in history}: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Cr 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
1Cr 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
1Cr 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
1Cr 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ [is] God's.

1 Cor. 1-4 is about not being ego-driven but rather God unified.

JMO, and hope it makes some sense.

Barry

[davo]

I'm still trying to grasp some of the ideas behind Pantelism.G'day Tim…

Regarding 'blasphemy of the Holy Spirit' and 'forgiveness' – have you checked out these articles HERE (http://pantelism.com/BlasphemyAgainstTheHolySpirit.htm) and HERE (http://pantelism.com/Forgiveness.htm).

[Tim B]

Hey Tim,
Here are my views:


The blaspheming of the Holy Spirit dealt with the transition of the ages as two covenant began to "compete" so to speak.

I have a relative that is a Church of Christ Preacher and is a "futurist" as a "partial preterist". Even from his position he sees it as a first century phenomenon.

Here is the context.

Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? {That generation, that time}
Mat 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast [them] out? therefore they shall be your judges.
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Mat 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? {The cross} and then he will spoil his house. {In the end of the age}
Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. {IE of this generation}
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit.
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men {IE of this generation} shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Mat 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, {Historically speaking} and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; {as recorded in biblical history} and, behold, a greater than Jonas here. {here in this generation}
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, {historically speaking} and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth {as recorded in biblical history} to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here.


The point being is this is the transition of the ages. This is when everything is being made new.

There are some points that can be extrapolated from this. Better to be proactive and kingdom oriented than oppressive and ego driven. Hitler's legacy will continue. Love impacts on a "spirit" level.

We cannot however have their judgment or their inheritance or their reward or their loss or their destruction of the flesh. We are rather the benefactors of this eternal inheritance. But how we use it or apply it is still lived here in "this life". And that has importance.




My understanding of this verse is that it was confessions of sins at conversion. It is set over-against those Jews who said they were not servants of sin and so then "had no sin".

Jhn 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Jhn 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Jhn 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: the Son abideth ever.
Jhn 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Jhn 9:41 Jesus said unto them, [B]If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Jhn 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Jhn 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.

Jhn 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Jhn 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

So then:

1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, {as the Jews did, who walked in the darkness} we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

"If we confess our sins" is set over-against "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar". As the Jews did. This is talking about being converted. As here:
Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mar 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

As opposed to this:
Mat 21:25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
Mat 21:26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
Mat 21:27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen [it], repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.


About forgiveness, IMHO, yes it is all forgiven. Even for them that turned in this time who were previously blasphemous. There was however, [I]generally speaking a "hardening".
Hardening takes place when the self perceived self comes under "threat". Christ threatened their identity. This sent them into "self preservation mode".
Like Pharaohs ego was threatened when is authority was threatened. Thus he was "hardened".
The Jews were Hardened when their temple and their city were threatened. They were hardened when the Gentiles or "uncircumcised" became Christians and then claimed the "son ship". ECT.



Indeed! All sins were forgiven.
The "unforgiveness" concerning the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is IMHO set apart from forgiveness of sins.

It is like saying, "God will forgive you but history will not". This is IMHO the "worm that never dies". A real killer for the ego driven identity that was about to "come to nothing".

I see the same thing right here:

1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish {are perishing in the identity of this wisdom} foolishness; but unto us which are saved {from the catastrophic ending of this age} it is the power of God.
1Cr 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Cr 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world {the old covenant age}? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world{the old covenant age}?


1Cr 2:2 For I determined not to know {to know no other wisdom} any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
1Cr 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
1Cr 2:4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Cr 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Cr 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world {old covenant age}, nor of the princes of this world, {old covenant age} that come to nought: {"are coming to nothing"}

1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; {that which was temporal and so combustible and belonged to that age as per the precedent of types and figures}
1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest {and thus will go down in history}: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Cr 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
1Cr 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;
1Cr 3:22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours;
1Cr 3:23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ [is] God's.

1 Cor. 1-4 is about not being ego-driven but rather God unified.

JMO, and hope it makes some sense.

Barry

Thanks for the input, Barry! :)

It's hard for me to grasp it, not so much intellectually, but more in my heart, certainly. Fear can be a troublesome thing, and only God, that is, perfect love, can drive that out. (I'll pray that God continues to drive the point home, to me, with all that's been said and I've heard.)

I must remember (whether I ever fully realize, at least in my mind, what this specific sin meant at that time), that Jesus IS the ransom for all men, the LOVE that covers ALL transgressions (Proverbs 10:12). :biglaugha:

[Barry]

Thanks for the input, Barry! :)

It's hard for me to grasp it, not so much intellectually, but more in my heart, certainly. Fear can be a troublesome thing, and only God, that is, perfect love, can drive that out. (I'll pray that God continues to drive the point home, to me, with all that's been said and I've heard.)

I must remember (whether I ever fully realize, at least in my mind, what this specific sin meant at that time), that Jesus IS the ransom for all men, the LOVE that covers ALL transgressions (Proverbs 10:12). :biglaugha:

It might be of some help to see these things from the position of God's sovereignty. If God is love, what does that say about His plans and goals? Is He sovereign or can man's will permanently upset His apple cart? Does God need annihilation and or eternal conscious torment to get his way? How does that solve the problem and what exactly is the function of such a thing?
If God is sovereign and He is love, then it seems to me that ultimately He gets his way on the issue of relationship. Nothing to fear really.
Well nothing to fear except the possible fear involved in not always getting our own way as we may frame such. :)
Barry

[Robert]

Great thread here. I wanted to ask something pertaining to hell. Brian Jones, a pastor/author. has written a post talking about why he still believes in hell. He said he had been doubting its existence but did a study and spent a long time in prayer and God told him hell was real and to beware false doctrines that claim otherwise. I have come to believe hell is not real as the traditional view states, but there are so many like pastor jones who teach and preach that anyone who denies it is heretical and a false teacher. I just wondered all your responses to this, and how to dialogue about this, especially if someone uses the trump that God told them it was true. Of all people i think preterists/pantelists have the most experience being called heretics lol so wanted your input on this aspect of it.

Robert

[Amie]

Tim,

I think that you will find that most of us around here see things very closely to your view of hell (if not flat out the same!).

Interesting how "love covers" imo. It sees and tocuhes our nakedness in order to do so. We are exposed, and embraced. God loves us through our mistakes, he isn't pretending that they aren't there. I relate to that as a mom. My kids aren't perfect, they mess up - but my love has never budged or lessened.

Amie

[Amie]

Robert,

Perhaps we can continue the conversation about hell here?: http://www.talk-grace.com/showthread.php?t=1207&highlight=hell

Or, get a whole new thread going? That's a really good topic imo - I couldn't resist brining it up here either!

Amie

[Barry]

Great thread here. I wanted to touch on the hell aspects.

Great thread here< i wanted to ask something pertaining to hell. Brian Jones, a pastor/author. has written a post talking about why he still believes in hell. He said he had been doubting its existence but did a study and spent a long time in prayer and God told him hell was real and to beware false doctrines that claim otherwise. I have come to believe hell is not real as the traditional view states, but there are so many like pastor jones who teach and preach that anyone who denies it is heretical and a false teacher. I just wondered all your responses to this, and how to dialogue about this, especially if someone uses the trump that God told them it was true. Of all people i think preterists/pantelists have the most experience being called heretics lol so wanted your input on this aspect of it.

Robert

Brian Jones has made a heck of a mistake. ;)

[Tim B]

G'day Tim…

Regarding 'blasphemy of the Holy Spirit' and 'forgiveness' – have you checked out these articles HERE (http://pantelism.com/BlasphemyAgainstTheHolySpirit.htm) and HERE (http://pantelism.com/Forgiveness.htm).

Hey, I've actually read both of those, but I wanted to re-read the one about forgiveness, so I checked it out again.

I saw that you referenced 1 Timothy 2:5-6, and it struck me, when I thought about its reference to truth:

" 4who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

5for one [is] God, one also [is] mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,

6who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times --"

The connection I made is this:

Is the truth A) Did Christ die so that people could be forgiven when they came to Him? or B) Or did Christ die to forgive them, period?

Paul seems to be suggestion option B. And, like the article says, that's truth, whether people believe it or not.

[Robert]

Tim - your pondering hits upon a point 2 guys made in my sunday school class. i was using verses on forgiveness to display how grace and forgiveness tie in together, and they both said that forgiveness is never granted without repentance. Just what kind of repentance they meant was not clarified. My question then was- do we not all need to repent on an ongoing basis seein gas how we all fall short of Gods mark everyday??? Or does Jesus sacrifice cover us once and for all which i think is what you are getting at.

Robert

[davo]

Is the truth A) Did Christ die so that people could be forgiven when they came to Him? or B) Or did Christ die to forgive them, period?
…and they both said that forgiveness is never granted without repentance.Tim and Robert… it is definitely that Christ died to forgive them, period – where "repentance comes in is "realising" it. To repent means to have a change in mind. It is only when we realise [change our minds] that we have been forgiven, a unilateral act of God, that we then start to grasp all the benefits inherent in that forgiveness.

It is the lack of mental realisation [repentance] that hinders moral [personal] and ethical [relational] realisation i.e., actualisation, of forgiveness' reality. The reality or truth is, we are already FREE, but it is only in KNOWING this truth that we then realise i.e., actualise it; as Jesus says in Jn 8:32 it is in "the knowing" of truth that freedom comes.

[Robert]

Davo- thank you for your explanation. Some questions for you to further clarify. In Romans where Paul talks about doing the things he hates and not doing what he knows is right, is this just our battle as imperfect humans we will struggle with and only Jesus frees us from, even as our minds have been changed to realize Jesus did set us free but we still commit disobedient acts???

John talks alot about obedience. He links obeying to loving God, keeping His commandments. We all fail to keep His commandments over and over again, even after trusting Jesus as Lord and Savior. What is Johns point in being so adamant and dogmatic about obedience??? Hope these questions are clear.

Robert

[davo]

Yeah Robert I think Paul was basically telling his story as one of 'the human condition', but especially so when one comes into the revelation of God's righteousness – we want to do that which is pleasing yet see in our own selves such lack; Paul however goes on to show that despite our inadequacies there is "no condemnation" because the Spirit is at work in us all.

I think what John puts forward are the "ideals" we head towards now knowing we are loved by the Father – not that we weren't loved before, but that now we know it we can do something positive with it in relation to serving/benefiting others. I also think a lot of what John writes in this regard has to be seen in the context of their "obedience to the call" as it related to their role as the first-fruit saints and diligence to the outworking of Israel's redemption etc.

[Amie]

Robert,

Could it be that in addition to Davo's thoughts, that John could be focusing in "knowing one another"? Obediance would follow knowing love, quite naturally.


Joh 13:35 By this all shall know that you are My disciples, if you have love among one another.

Amie

[Robert]

Davo & Amie- I see the sense you both make linking what John is talking about with the *one anothers* and acting in love. I ask what i did because I have absorbed a message of unwavering obedience to Jesus and God that reverberates in my mind, but of course I am hit by the reality of it being an ideal as you say davo as opposed to being an edict of *obey or else* The harder i try to obey as I have thought John had Jesus speaking of, the harder it felt and seemed to have inner resistance in various ways. I hope in sharing as we do i come to accept grace much more fully and deeply within.

Robert