Everlasting

[Paige]

The word "everlasting" is used in scripture to describe many things.

In the OT, the predominant use of this word is the Hebrew word "olam".


The word everlasting (the usual translation of the Hebrew word "olam") is an abstract word. The Hebrew meaning is something like "behind the horizon." It is something that is beyond what you can see (or understand) at the moment but may be revealed as you travel closer (or at a later time). The abstract idea of "everlasting" would have been a foreign concept to the ancient Hebrews. ---From the Ancient Hebrew Research Center.

Here is a partial list of some things that were 'everlasting' in the OT:

The Noahide Covenant (Gen. 9:16)
The Abrahamic Covenant (Gen. 17:7)
The posession of Canaan (Gen. 17:8)
The Covenant of Circumcision (Gen. 17:13)
God (Gen. 21:33)
The Aaronic Priesthood (Ex. 40:15)

This is just a small sampling of what was described as 'everlasting' in the OT. I would like to point out that through our study of the entire bible, we can certainly come to the conclusion that some of those everlasting things had an end. Everlasting does not necessarily mean eternal.

Can we say the same about the NT? Our friend Davo has written a very good article entitled "Eternal And The Q Factor." Here is a link to that article found on his site:

http://pantelism.com/EternalAndTheQFactor.htm

In considering what he wrote, I found this a.m. that there is only one scripture in the NT that uses the phrase "everlasting Gospel." It can be found in Rev. 14:6. I would like to know your thoughts as to the ramifications of this in light of the word aionos that is the greek word there for 'everlasting'.

I'm beginning to lean toward the idea that the Gospel of the NT may have indeed been a specific message directed toward those very ones who were living in the transition of the ages. I would encourage all of you who haven't already done so, to read davo's article and then let me know how you are viewing this.

:)
Paige

[christyG]

WOW, great thoughts Paige:clap2:

Here is something I remember reading at the Biblical Hebrew web site about the Hebrew concept of time that coincides with the translation you relayed of "olam".

"behind the horizon."

To the Hebrews they saw their PAST as in front of them and their future was behind them, which makes since because we see what is in front of us -- our past --, but we cannot see what is behind -- our future--. Now in the west we usually think of our horizon as being in front of us, and if they had the same view of horizon then this could be referring to their past. OR as some have translated it as "of the ages" -- as in ancient. Am I relating that clearly?

Also Paige,

I'm beginning to lean toward the idea that the Gospel of the NT may have indeed been a specific message directed toward those very ones who were living in the transition of the ages.
I also am seeing it this way as well. But I have not read the article and will now.:)

Just another note, because this is something that I studied in depth some time back....

I have found that the word used for "life" when it is used in the term "eternal life" seems to mean a vitality of life. A life "of the ages" -- a life of the ancients, so ancient that it is "beyond our horizon". In other words, I see that meaning that eternal life has to do with the here and now. Not to say that our here and now cannot live past our physical here and now, if you get what I am saying.

Right now, IMO, I see the entire Bible as being written for a specific people in a specific time. I do not however think this means that we cannot glean knowledge from its contents. It is a book that is "behind the horizon", it is eternal, it is ancient wisdom, wisdom of the ancients, that transcends time and place. IMO:)

Christy

[christyG]

Yeah, just went to the article and found that it is one that I had read some time in the past when I was in my search for "eternal life". Davo's comments about quality vs. quantity seem to coincide with what I have found in my studies as well.

[Paige]

Right now, IMO, I see the entire Bible as being written for a specific people in a specific time. I do not however think this means that we cannot glean knowledge from its contents. It is a book that is "behind the horizon", it is eternal, it is ancient wisdom, wisdom of the ancients, that transcends time and place. IMO

Yes, I'm seeing what you're seeing and completely agree.

A friend once told me that there are 2 camps within the fulfilled view. IBN (Immortal Body Now) vs. IBD (Immortal Body at Death). (His interpretation is hilarious...IBN = Its Better Now, and IBD = Its better Dead, lol!:biglaugha: ) I feel that the more I study this, the more I'm convinced of the former. This is quite scary for some, I know, because they have built up a big hope of getting a huge pay-off when they die. The thought occured to me today that those of us who are learning this now, are adapting to this reality. We are being transformed to experience joy in relationship that doesn't depend on circumstances. When pondering this, I began to ask what evidence should we have that the afterlife will be significantly different than this life? What if it contains highs and lows just like we experience today? It still seems to boil down that we (I) need to ask ourselves (myself) if following God is worth it without the pay-off. My answer is still yes.

Paige

[Barry]

Hi Christy.
you said,
"To the Hebrews they saw their PAST as in front of them and their future was behind them, which makes since because we see what is in front of us -- our past --, but we cannot see what is behind -- our future--. Now in the west we usually think of our horizon as being in front of us, and if they had the same view of horizon then this could be referring to their past. OR as some have translated it as "of the ages" -- as in ancient. Am I relating that clearly?"

Those are some interesting observations Christy.
That would be interesting to look closer at.
Not to put you on the spot but is there anything you can add to that or is there anything online that would let me read up on that?

Interesting post sis.
Barry

[Lou]

It still seems to boil down that we (I) need to ask ourselves (myself) if following God is worth it without the pay-off. My answer is still yes.

Paige


For me there has been a huge pay-off, peace.

I believe it was Barry that once said something in the order of, "the veil has not only been removed from between man and God it has been removed from between man and man. (a bad paraphrase)

[Paige]

I agree, there is a pay-off in relationship with God. I'm just not thinking it is jeweled crowns and harps anymore.

Paige

[backtothefuture]

Paige,
I am believing also more and more its not harps and crowns. Trying to live face to face in God's grace.
I do have my difficult days though. Still kind of crossing over to the fulfilled view.
Especially with my husband and friends still being very Evangelical in their "end time" thinking. We went to dinner last week, and all that was talked about was we must be in the end, the world is so bad.
Then yesterday at Bagel church, (a lot of Christians meet there) I could over hear all kinds of bible studies going on. One guy was talking about working out your salvation with fear and trembling. One woman was talking about how woman just can't do this and that in the church. I game away quite depressed actually.
Sometimes I feel like I am on this journey all alone. Then I begin doubting everything I am learning. I find myself asking questions like, is the Bible even for me? Is there another path to God? Then there is the kind of coma I have been in, leaving a faith I have believed in for almost my entire life and coming to grips with so much of what I was taught was not right. I know way to much to go back, but not quite enough yet to fully walk all the time in peace about it all.
Actually I was wondering if there is a good article about kind of what I am experiencing. I need to know that even if the Bible wasn't written to me. That God still answers prayers. Maybe does a miracle now and then and actually hears me when I cry.
The part about heaven and what it is or isn't or where we go, has never bothered me. Whether we are a spirit. or body or whatever. I want or should I say, need to see God now. On my good days I do. On my hard days, I do cave:( The the doubts come in.
Even the scripture that I have held so dear in my heart over the years, one by one I can break them down to not meaning at all what I thought. That has been kind of a shock. But still, I want to walk this journey. In the end what I have been after is the truth. And I am so ready for grace and peace to be a part of my life:biggrinbounce:
Blessings,
Nancy

[Barry]

Nancy,
transformation is really difficult.
If you are a step ahead then you are a leader.
If you are are two steps ahead you are a visionary.
If you are five steps ahead you are a heretic.

Mind you, our point is not to get ahead for that is not our goal. Rather just going forward!
Be patent sis.
Yea I know! That takes being at least 6 steps ahead. LOL
Barry

[Paige]

Nancy,

I will keep on the lookout for an article that deals with your specific questions.

As for miracles, I believe that we witness them everyday, yet maybe have some trouble recognizing them as such. I remember holding my newborn babies and definitely feeling as if God had provided us a miracle with each child. I remember taking bold leaps of faith only to find out that God was with each leap, and had it covered all along. There were so many years that we lived paycheck to paycheck (still do, but not quite to the same extent as when we were younger) and it was miraculous how God helped us stretch that check to cover our needs.

I remember praying for wisdom and direction, and receiving answers to those prayers. I know God hears us and answers us :) !

Nancy, King David was a man after God's own heart, and yet we can read in the Psalms that he had his down days too. There were definitely times when he needed to "see" more than what he was "seeing". You are not alone in this. I like what Lou pointed out about "peace". There is a scripture that has come to my mind time and time again when I've faced uncertainty:

"You will keep him in perfect
peace,
Whose mind is stayed on you,
Because he trusts in you." Is. 26:3

Paige

[backtothefuture]

Thanks guys.
I see the vision, but sometimes have a hard time grasping it. I get it, and yet can't explain it. So when I try to tell people what I am learning now, they really think I am nuts!
Sometimes, I guess its just fear of the unknown. Yesterday, I just kept saying to myself, In quietness and confidence shall be your strength.
I Have sat in quiet now before the Lord for 3 years. I have the verse, Blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted, running all the time across my computer screen for 3 years. My husband said the other night, isn't it about time to change it. But I said, not yet. I don't feel comforted yet.
Some days, I feel like I really am just in a battle with God over my life. And over what I am learning now. I am wrestling.
I have a new name, I know that. Graceful courageous one. And yet I live more like, worry-wort, anxietied one!!
Still, we walk by faith and not by sight. I for some reason need to see. Maybe pray for me, that I can really see. My sight is blurred on so many days. My vision needs to be clear and focused.
Thanks all,
Blessings,
Nancy

[christyG]

Hey Barry,

I found this article at:http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/12_concepts.html

I love that site. Very informative. I got there from a link on Amie's site once.

Christy

[Barry]

I read it over and put it in favorites Christy.

Without a doubt the Hebrews thought differently about these things than we do today.
I'll keep an eye open for more info.
Thanks Barry

[Amie]

What if it contains highs and lows just like we experience today?

I read the whole "Interview with A Vampire" series and in one of them, the vampire Lestat is transported (spiritually) into a human body, and the human's soul takes command of Lestat's body. He experienced what it was to be human again. It took him time to recognize what it felt like to need to urinate, and then experienced how great it felt to gain that relief.

So, I wonder how life would be without the human experience and the lows. Like the fictional character Lestat, I wonder if we would miss it.


It still seems to boil down that we (I) need to ask ourselves (myself) if following God is worth it without the pay-off. My answer is still yes.

I agree. Imo, God is the payoff.


For me there has been a huge pay-off, peace.

Hmm, could the phrase "peace on earth" be synonymous with the phrase "God with us"?


"the veil has not only been removed from between man and God it has been removed from between man and man."

But such a great quotable quote!!


I want or should I say, need to see God now. On my good days I do. On my hard days, I do cave. The the doubts come in.

Can God be present with you even when you doubt? Job suffered, but God never left him.

Do you do bible studies in Bagel church?

All --

The Hebrews viewed the world (literally, planet earth) as a sort of dome. The sun, stars, and moon were on the ceiling of that dome, rather than somewhere distant. "Olam" also means "world". In that the cycles of life were contained therein, and time was observed via those cycles. One of those cycles, was the passing over of the sun. Sunrise didn't mean that light was being spread throughout their world, to them, the darkness was being gathered. At the end of the day, the sun would then gather it's light and go whereever it went. If you'll note, the darkness went somewhere in their mind, as did the light. It was a plain of existance beyond their eyes, "beyond the horizon" (I love that Ancient Hebrew site too!!). It was as if there were a whole other world past their field of vision - or even a heaven/abode of God over the heavens/sky.

The world that they knew was ruled by death, though there was hope. There was hope that Israel would rise again as a nation of God and therefore hope that life would overtake death for humanity. That world was also beyond their scope of vision. Cycles (therefore time) continued as they had been, they being stuck until the "Good news" was declared throughout that Israel was rising, and redemption was at hand. Jesus was saviour, the world that they had known, was passing away.

The new world was brought into existance, and redemption was accomplished. Jesus was saviour, the world they had known passed away. Is the Gospel (Jesus is saviour) therefore eternal as we understand it and as they understood it? I think so. It is "olam" and without time constraints.

I think it's interesting that it can be applied as such concerning "eternal torment". It's my understanding that Revelation uses "basanismos", translated "torment". Look at this if you will:


to torture, a testing by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal

Could this have to do with human righteousness as tested against (iow "in comparison to") God's righteousness?

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Hi Amie,
I don't do Bible studies at Bagel church. I read my bible or a book. But there are tons going on there because of the area I live in. Wheaton College is just a few blocks away, so a lot of fundamental stuff going around.
Do you know of anything I could print off any of the places you guys visit, that maybe I could work on? I would really like to learn Hebrew. But figure that must be really hard. Don't know?
Take care
Nancy

[christyG]

Great info Amie!

Just wanted to add Nancy,

Hang in there. I experience highs and lows also, and assume that is normal...assuming I am normal:) . Although I have been on a real high lately and just can't keep the information flowing in fast enough. I have read so much stuff on so many different subjects, you wouldn't even believe. And I'm not sure how I am even doing that with a 40+ hour a week job, three children, baseball and soccer season, ... and I do sleep every now and then.:)

Just to know that I really feel I can relate to you, but then you make that so easy:) . I also have felt alone at times in my thoughts. There were times that I really didn't feel I could share much with anybody without risking critisism. Those were the times that I really depending on this site ( and the old one) to get me through. Although, there were times that I tried to stay away, I would start to doubt and even had thoughts that maybe I was being brainwashed here:eek: :biglaugha: But something always drew me back.

I state these things as in the past, although they really were not so long ago, but because of the recent high I have been on, I do not see anymore of these days in my future.

The change for more was a great paradigm shift (a transformation) that came via a powerful book that spoke to me that has helped put my jumbled thoughts more in focus. I see where I am heading now and I just can't get there fast enough. I share more about my thoughts with those close to me...people I actually see face-to-face. I guess my fears and doubts are gone, or at least subsiding.

I wish that for you.:)

Christy

[christyG]

Oh, and Nancy,

I also once wanted to learn Hebrew, but have since put that goal on hold. I studied a bit of the history of the Jews/Hebrew people and that satisfied my desire to get into their heads and gain better understanding. The Ancient-Hebrew site I sited earlier is a really great place to start if you would like to learn more. You can study the language there and they are even working on a new translation of the Hebrew Bible with excerpts you can rean on their site. Also many conferences planned throughout the country in the fall.

Christy

[backtothefuture]

Christy,
Thanks so much for the kind words. When I first started on this journey 4 years ago, my heart actually started racing as I first started reading. I thought for sure, I would be struck down for even reading this stuff;)
So I put some of the places out there in my favorite places and didn't even dare go back for a year!
But I just could never shake what I was reading. The more I started reading things from the time in history it was written, something just always stirred in me. Even though I didn't know how to explain what was happening.
As people took the time to explain symbols and time frames and things like the first Adam and so forth, it all kind of started coming together for me.
The problem is now, I have 40 years of die-hard fundamental belief to de-program from. Its hard on some days. There is no one around me accept one friend now, who is starting to ask questions, that I can explode on some days with.
Seems, like we are both just asking questions non stop.
I would like to run this by you. You mentioned the brainwashing:biggrinbounce: And I thought that also. (but not for very long!). But now, I don't want to be called a Christian anymore. Isn't that terrible!! I don't know if its because I still don't "feel" good enough to be called one. Or, I am so sick inside, when I see all the stuff that has been done in the name of Christianity and its been so terrible. Or I just don't have Faith anymore to believe something.
I guess today, I am just stuck. Instead of walking face to face I am walking backwards!! Butt to Butt!!
Thanks Christy,
I can relate to so much of what you say.
Blessings,
Nancy

[Barry]

Christy said:
"Just to know that I really feel I can relate to you, but then you make that so easy . I also have felt alone at times in my thoughts. There were times that I really didn't feel I could share much with anybody without risking critisism. Those were the times that I really depending on this site ( and the old one) to get me through. Although, there were times that I tried to stay away, I would start to doubt and even had thoughts that maybe I was being brainwashed here"

Yes, love does that :) but in a good way :D

Christy, it means a lot that you consider TG a safe place. That is the way it should be.
Barry

[davo]

But now, I don't want to be called a Christian anymore. Isn't that terrible!! I don't know if its because I still don't "feel" good enough to be called one. Or, I am so sick inside, when I see all the stuff that has been done in the name of Christianity and its been so terrible. Or I just don't have Faith anymore to believe something.

Hi Nancy, I can hear what you say. It's like all that the badge "christian" has come to mean TODAY, as opposed to all that it started with. Some could mischievously misconstrue that you are now abandoning Christ -- however I dare say that more than ever it is HIM CHRIST and not the "anity" that you like Mary in the garden cling to.

Perhaps what you're grappling with as far as "believing" goes is all the religious trappings that make up churchianity – that is a tuff one for sure. I'm glad you too find this a safe place to express yourself.

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Davo.
It is Him Christ that I want to cling to. I like the anity part. Its just hard when I am surrounded by strong fundamentals who would now ad the ins-to the anity:biggrinbounce:
And even though I mention a lot about fundamentals. I don't mean anything dis-respectful. Its just what I came out of.
I am so afraid on some days. I have spent a lot of years walking in a faith that is changing now. Part of it anyway. I guess because I am a black or white kind of person, it seems like I have to throw all the babies out with the bath water. Maybe thats not true. Maybe just certain parts. Maybe I should go back to taking baby steps. I am already at the heretic spot and I haven't done all the steps before that yet:biggrinbounce:
Thanks all.
Glad this is a safe spot. If you guys turn out to be aliens or something, I won't be a happy camper:eek:
Nancy

[davo]

If you guys turn out to be aliens or something, I won't be a happy camper:eek:

lol -- does "heretic" qualify as alien :ufo: :hand: :sign_welcome:

[backtothefuture]

Davo,
I guess Heretic does qualify as alien:eek: Most people think I'm from another planet now anyway!!
Cute!
Nancy

[Paige]

Hey guys,

If we can get enough on board, we might just have what it takes to pull off an "invasion", lol!

Paige

[Barry]

This thread could go on forever!
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[christyG]

I love you guys:biggrinbounce:

I also hear what you are saying Nancy. Church has given Christianity a bad name....religion can be a problem.

You know, not too long ago I was considreing "jumping ship" all together. I was studying ancient religions and finding more that appealed to me there than did anything that I had learned from my Christian background.

I'm such a nut and really hate to go there again, but.....the book I recently read really helped to put my Christian tradition in proper perspective for me. I learned a great deal that was never taught to me through my years in church, and it really gave me hope. It allowed me to view Christianity in a new light, one that makes it as appealing as the other ancient religions. It helped to put religion as a whole in proper perspective. But it was the piece I needed, everyone needs to find their own piece/peace;) .

I see hope in the emergent church movement. I even see hope in some of the new progressive things that the UMC is doing. I still hold out hope for church. I see what great fellowship can do for people----I see what it has done for me here.

This is not to say that I have stopped looking into other areas for truth---ancient religions, mystics of all eras, spiritualists, new age philosophies, etc....I now feel OK doing it. I have it in a better perspective now. And actually have come to see how very similar we all are:9_cool: .

Christy

[Amie]

Do you know of anything I could print off any of the places you guys visit, that maybe I could work on? I would really like to learn Hebrew. But figure that must be really hard. Don't know?

I guess the difficulty would depend on the individual. Like Christy I was excited about learning it, then found satisfaction in the tools available online. That doesn't mean that I never want to learn it, but I can relax and take my time :).

The main web sites on the front page have a great deal of articles to draw from.

Bugsinheaven.com has a section titled "Do It Yourself Study". There are lots of resources and tools there.

There's "online resources" such as online bibles (I recommend Green's literal because most of the time it lists a reference back to the OT prophecy being fulfilled in the NT) and the crosswalk.com bible search and study tool (which is awesome).

There's a section dedicated to "Hebrew" where there's a short intro to the culture and perhaps the importance of understanding their thinking, and a link to the Ancient Hebrew Research site for more indepth digging.

Then, there's a section dedicated to "Greek". Tim King was gracious enough to write that intro article and there are links to sites that help explain their culture and language as well.

Then there's the "inside the book" section. They're more theological in nature than other articles on the site.

If you have any questions on how to use any of the stuff, from the bible search engines (like crosswalk) to the 3D bible tour, I'm here :). If I'm not here, I think I can safely say that there are many hear who would love to help ya.

I can relate to how you're feeling about the word "Christian"! I felt the same way and searched for a long while for a new and better fitting label.

I talked with a Native American who was also a "Chief". He carried with him quite a history - it having been handed down verbally. We talked a long time and he told me how generations ago, the young boys and girls were forced into separate schools because they were "savages" (children!) and may "bond and breed".

The church leaders told them everything that they cherished was evil and things which God hated. Not only did they say it, they acted like it (hateful). They taught them that God was wrathful and glared down at them.

The Chief told me that the God of the white man was not someone they wanted to befriend. During the conversation, I would interject things like "Wow, I see God as our Father, and Fathers are loving - they don't call their children 'savages'".

It was late, and toward the end of our conversation he asked me my religious belief. I told him "I'm a Christian". He said "I've never met a Christian like you before". I responded "From what you say, I can see that many of your people have never met Christians like me", and then I said "I pray that they do". He agreed.

Though I think the label "child of God" is more accurate than Christian - via my view, if "Christian" is what is representing our God out in the world, I hope that I do the label justice.


And actually have come to see how very similar we all are.

That still amazes me.

Amie

[Robert]

WOW!!!! Just came across this thread looking at all the topics covered on it. This thread speaks SO MUCH to what we have been discussing in the God ON Trial thread, imho :)

Nancy- thank you for all you shared on here!!!! I feel like I could put myself into your posts here almost word for word!!!!!

Amie- can you share anything else from the ancient Hebrew site that pertains to what we have been talking about??? Maybe, how they defined and viewed love???

Paige-loved your take on what *immortal body now* That following God is totally worth it, even without any payoff. Just curious, why did Paul say in 1 Corinthians I believe it is, that if we believe in God only in this life alone, then we are of all ment most to be pitied, because we could be out eating drinking and making merry for tomorrow we die??? I ask out of total wondering just what Paul fully meant by that???

barry said he hoped this thread could go on forever!!! Olam, Aionios!!! I LOVED every post in this thread!!!!! It has been such a balm for all I have been dealing with. Hope you all re-read it and add any new thoughts!!!

Robert

[Amie]

Amie- can you share anything else from the ancient Hebrew site that pertains to what we have been talking about??? Maybe, how they defined and viewed love???

One of the English definitions for the word "love" in English is: "To have a feeling of intense desire and attraction toward (a person)." But that definition is not the end-all for the meaning of the word love.

The Hebrew word ("ahabah") appears to have a similar definition which I would word as: "A powerful awe within."

Amie