The way into the holy place

[Barry]

Here is new short article at http://infinite-grace.com.

http://infinite-grace.com/heb98.htm

If you have any comments or questions this would be a good place for them :)
Barry

[Paige]

Barry,

When I read the article it seemed to just reiterate to me how Christ was the ark in the last days. Does that seem off-base to you?

To my knowledge, once people came out of the ark, they and their children and the generations that followed never went in again.

Paige

[Barry]

That's a good point IMO Paige.
IMO only when we embrace the totality of the finality of the old age (in AD 70) will we better understand our present day experiential response to this end.
Barry

[Lou]

Barry,

When I read the article it seemed to just reiterate to me how Christ was the ark in the last days. Does that seem off-base to you?

To my knowledge, once people came out of the ark, they and their children and the generations that followed never went in again.

Paige



When you read the Genesis account of the flood in that light it really brings out what the Church did to bring fullness to us.

Then with their thinking of “yowm” day-year. Forty days of flood- forty years of the Church.


Genesis 7: 17 Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. 18 The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters. 19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.

[Truthseeker]

Hi Barry and All,

Great article! Its awesome how it all ties in together with the Ark, isn't it, Paige? "Just as the days of Noah, so will the coming of the Son of Man be." Wow. Thanks so much! :clap2: --rhonda

[davo]

To my knowledge, once people came out of the ark, they and their children and the generations that followed never went in again.

Yes! Paige that is a great thought -- it brings to mind Peter's words to his generation: "baptism now saves you" [1Pet 3:21] i.e., as it once saved them it is now saving you. And what was God's words to those who came out? -- "Never again will I...". And God set a sign... Kinda reminds me of "then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven...". The "sign" WAS that the Son had come to the Ancient of Days and was given the authority to judge etc.

Thus the "kingdom" [authority] having been given to those bearing its fruit, i.e., to carry His blessing into the world duly did NOT walk back into the Ark but went out to fulfill that mandate of being "blessed to be a blessing" -- that mandate continues today :clap2: .

[Tam]

Davo and all, :wavey:

Baptism, now that's a topic I haven't talked about in a loooong while. Is this a good forum to discuss it? Or should I be at a different thread? I really don't have any thoughts at all on it...just wondering if some of you would give your thoughts. I know some here believe the need for communion went away around 70 AD...do some of you feel that way about baptism? Just any thoughts at all on it would be sooo appreciated.

If this belongs on a different thread then just direct me there for your responses. Thanks.

Tami

[Barry]

It's fine here and now sis. Just because we take a side track doesn't mean we cannot come back. Not at all.

My view in a nut shell.
Large portions of scripture (old testament) point toward the terminal generation and the age transitional time. IE. how things would get fulfilled.
Baptism and communion fall into this IMHO.
There are those who wish to participate in such matters. That IMHO is a matter of individual prerogative. The end or fulfillment of such things does not need to become a "doctrine" when the fulfillment of such things is the perspective.
I was a Church of Christ preacher and missionary. I know every verse on Baptism and Lord's supper LOL.
So I'm not speaking as one who has always held this view.
Others here may have their points and views, and should express them freely.
Barry

[backtothefuture]

Paige,
Can you say a little more about the symbolism of the ark and what that means. i just found that after reading your post, it was like a light bulb moment, but I am not sure why:rolleyes:
Nancy

[Paige]

Nancy,

I can "say" a whole lot, but the better question would be "will it make any sense?" LOL!!!

Where are my thougths headed? Barry said:


Among some of the fulfilled persuasion there is in my opinion a prejudicial reading of this verse. It is supposed that what is inferred here is that the “way” into the most holy place would then be “shown” and "available" so that one may then "Choose" that way which is “shown”.

The term “manifest” is however not being used in the sense that the way would THEN be up to ones choosing. What is meant in Heb. 9:8 is that the way was not yet fully revealed for what it was because its fullness had not yet been fulfilled. Its completion was not yet realized hence revealed fully.

The book of Hebrews is not attempting to indicate a coming “opportunity” to Choose a yet to be revealed “way” once the end has come. On the contrary it has everything to do with the fact that the “way” was yet still available, and was not to be "forsaken" (Heb. 10:25) while there was still time. Those convinced of this were to "hold fast firm until the end". This new and living “way” being taken by some would be fully realized, fully manifested, fully revealed, once the first tabernacle would be taken away.

I think that the ark was a "type" of Christ. In order to survive through the end of Noah's world, one needed to be on that ark. In the same manner, in order to survive through the end of the Old Covenant world, one needed to be "in Christ". With this is mind, has the end of the OC occured? Those of us who see the fulfillment in 70 can say yes, right?

The book of Hebrews is not attempting to indicate a coming “opportunity” to Choose a yet to be revealed “way” once the end has come. On the contrary it has everything to do with the fact that the “way” was yet still available, and was not to be "forsaken" -From Barry's article.

Many folks say it is necessary to get "into Christ" today in order to "get saved". If true, what this in essence means then is that the ark (Christ) is still being filled up and the destruction is yet to come. I think this is faulty.

Isn't it more accurate to see that we inhabit the new creation that came after the old passed away? Christ brought humanity into the Holy of Holies. It has all been accomplished and now we live in it. So, IMO, my mission isn't really to "get people into Christ", but help them see what Christ has already given them through His victory over sin and death.

There is a lot of symbolism in the story of Noah that ties in with the salvation of Christ. 40 years from the cross to the parousia of Christ / 40 days of torrential rains coming upon the land (as pointed out by Lou). Noahs neighbors couldn't figure out the importance of what he was doing, and didn't get on the ark / OC Israel failed to see the "the way" and persecuted it, then went through the destruction of their world.

Hope this helped :) I'm still putting pieces together, so I'm not sure if I've even begun to do the topic justice.

Paige

[backtothefuture]

Gosh Paige,
That was so interesting. When reading through this thread and lurking mostly, I just sit some days with my mouth wide open:D
Its a good thing you guys can't really see me as some of what I read is like a light bulb going off in my head.

The one word that immediately spoke to me in the posts by some was the word "Manifest" I thought of the genealogy I did on my grandpa that came in through Ellis Island on a ship from England. I have a copy of that Manifest. The list of people on the ship.

I don't know, maybe we are still on the ark? Only we now have the freedom to go to and fro. One by one, two by two, three by three.
Maybe God has one big "manifest". Only now the list includes all of humanity?
Blessings
Nancy

[Paige]

Nancy,

I know it sounds to some that by saying humanity has come "out of the ark", that we have somehow left Christ behind. I think that on the surface it would be easy to interpret it that way if one was looking to criticise this viewpoint.

For me, a better way to see it is the acknowledgement that all those who came out of the ark were saved by it, and consequently so were the generations that followed. So, we have all been saved by Christ. In this way, what He accomplished is never forgotten and He is not "left behind". Does this sound plausible?

BTW, I like your idea of all humanity on God's manifest!

Paige

[Truthseeker]

Hi Sis Paige,

I love this:

For me, a better way to see it is the acknowledgement that all those who came out of the ark were saved by it, and consequently so were the generations that followed. So, we have all been saved by Christ. In this way, what He accomplished is never forgotten and He is not "left behind". Does this sound plausible?

It sounds SO plausible to me I give it a hearty, "AMEN!" Awesome, Sis!--rhonda

[Truthseeker]

Hi Tami,

You asked about baptism.

Brother Barry said:

Large portions of scripture (old testament) point toward the terminal generation and the age transitional time. IE. how things would get fulfilled.
Baptism and communion fall into this IMHO.
There are those who wish to participate in such matters. That IMHO is a matter of individual prerogative. The end or fulfillment of such things does not need to become a "doctrine" when the fulfillment of such things is the perspective.

This goes right along with the way I've come to see it, too. During the Lord's Supper, he said to his disciples, "Do this in memory of me until I come". If he has come, this ritual (which was a physical "type" to represent a spiritual "anti-type") is no longer needed. Like Barry, I think if people want to continue with communion or baptism, that's certainly fine to do.

Paul said about baptism, "Do you not know that when you were baptized you were baptized into death?" The symbol (as I see it and I stand to be corrected) represented going down into the grave (dying to the physical) and being raised up to Life (being resurrected in the Spirit.) This had to take place experientially by those in the First Century to understand what was to come. Everything prior to 70 CE (in regard to worship, from the smallest detail in the Temple, all rituals, sacrifices, etc done to the letter) was to point to the Greater Spiritual (Heavenly) Reality.

I find it interesting too, that baptism is normally today, not about being made a member of Christ's body (as it was then) but a member of a Denomination. That's why I was baptized 3 times, lol--as a Baptist, a WWCG'er and then a JW. :) Each denomination believes its the "true" church, therefore any former baptisms didn't count. That may not be true for all--but most, I'd say. ::D --rhonda

[Truthseeker]

The one word that immediately spoke to me in the posts by some was the word "Manifest" I thought of the genealogy I did on my grandpa that came in through Ellis Island on a ship from England. I have a copy of that Manifest. The list of people on the ship.

I don't know, maybe we are still on the ark? Only we now have the freedom to go to and fro. One by one, two by two, three by three.
Maybe God has one big "manifest". Only now the list includes all of humanity?
Blessings
Nancy[/QUOTE]

Hi Dear Sister Nancy,

I've enjoyed so much of what you write. :)

God has one big Manifest. Only now the list includes all of humanity! How beautiful is THAT? I love it! :) Well said, Sis.--rhonda

[Tam]

Thanks Barry and Rhonda for your thoughts on Baptism. Gave me something to ponder. I really appreciate it. :) Tami

[backtothefuture]

Just for the record,
I have been baptized 4 times but I finally learned how to swim. Up hill that is:biggrinbounce:
Nancy

[Truthseeker]

Doggone it, I thought I held the record in baptisms! :eek: --rhonda

[backtothefuture]

Methodist church,Baptist church, Reformed church, Pentecostal church!
If you want to count when my parents had me baptized as an infant..that was the congregational church, so I guess I am up to 5!!!
Yikes, I should be water logged by now!
Nancy

[Barry]

Peter was standing at the pearly gates to receive everyone and this one guy comes up just a limping along with no foot!
Peter says, "Goodness man, what happened to ya, you are supposed to be whole".
The guy answered, "When I got baptized my foot popped up out of the water!"

:D
Barry

[Lou]

Peter was standing at the pearly gates to receive everyone and this one guy comes up just a limping along with no foot!
Peter says, "Goodness man, what happened to ya, you are supposed to be whole".
The guy answered, "When I got baptized my foot popped up out of the water!"

:D
Barry

You're asking for it. LOL