Bad to the bone?

[Amie]

The implications of a biologically passed "sin nature" are no less than babies being born predisposed toward evil doing. Freudian views support the idea that infants are born 'trouble'. They are first bad and out of control, and need our taming and training.

Such a view has spread the negative view of babies and children, and the treatment resulting from such perspectives. IE, if a parent has the Freudian view of children, how would that parent feel and then react when a child feels frustrated and reacts according to their knowledge of how to handle such feelings? <-- Maybe falling on the floor crying until they're purple. I would think it to be difficult to search out empathy when faced with such a close experience with 'unharnessed evil'. After all, if they're in their "terrible twos", they're only 24 short months away from 'pure untamed/unaffected badness'.

A newer school of thought within psychology (after 90 years of the old stuff, I say it's about time!) asserts that infants are factually born innocent. A parent in the same situation might react with more empathy, connecting better with how the child is feeling in that moment and the frustration they must be feeling in not knowing what to do with their emotion, or even how to express it fully.

(The above are not even to mention how that child feels about themself, or how the adults do.)

I believe firmly that we pass on behaviors genetically. Our children's children will be predisposed for happiness, depression, hairiness, short, tall, etc, determined by our environments. (see http://talk-grace.com/showthread.php?t=84).

A child born predisposed toward rages doesn't guarantee that they will choose to do it (as is said in Presence's "Transformations" course, "Your history is not your destiny"). Once they become aware of rage, they may not find it to be a welcomed part of their life. Maybe they'll become so aware that they will no longer be tempted, or maybe they will struggle with it for a lifetime. Improvement is improvement though, and the genetic line of that person will forever be affected by the choice of that one individual.

I think that being born "in Adam" had nothing to do with behavior or genetics. I think we are still the very same human beings that we were created as. Being born "in Adam" was a covenantal position in that anyone who "ate of the tree of knowledge" would die in the same way that Adam did, until that problem was amply solved.

Did Adam's death though, effect the awareness of humanity? How?

How can genetic predisposition equal "sin nature", when we so quickly (and quite naturally) choose better the minute we know better?

[christyG]

Very good stuff Amie!:clap2:

This touches upon some things that I have been reading recently. Actually this whole concept of "sin nature" is what brought me into the study that helped me uncover infinite grace! I just kept looking at my three beautiful children and actually remembering my blessed and beautiful childhood and I just couldn't make myself believe that all people are born in sin. I knew it wasn't so and I went on a quest to prove it and as it turns out this quest only uncovered the most wonderful journey I've ever been on!:9_cool:

Anyway, as you may guess I completely believe that we are born innocent and always have been. There are many studies that do try to prove this:

-- K. Tamminen, "Religious experiences in Childhood and Adolescence," posed a question to children of different ages: 'Have you at times felt that God is particularly close to you?'. And they answered: those in 1st grade 84% said yes, 5th grade 69% and 7th grade 57% and 11th grade 47%.

-- Also there is a story that was told in a book by Parker Palmer about a little three-year old girl who asked her parents if she could have some time alone with her new baby brother when they brought him home from the hospital. With the baby monitor on they let the girl go in and close the door. They heard her ask--"Tell me about God -- I've almost forgotten".

-- I am also intrigued by the stories of near-death experiences of children. Reader's Digest has a very good article about this topic in their May 2006 issue.

Amie,

I think that being born "in Adam" had nothing to do with behavior or genetics. I think we are still the very same human beings that we were created as. Being born "in Adam" was a covenantal position in that anyone who "ate of the tree of knowledge" would die in the same way that Adam did, until that problem was amply solved.


I COMPLETELY agree with that!

IMHO the whole story of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament is the story of how we (humans) live with ourselves and how we live with each other. It is a story about finding ourselves and why we act the way we do and what we can do about it. It is a story about transformation. I don't know about you, but this is very different from what I was taught. The major themes I saw in church were: Jesus transforms, we need transformed, and transofrmation has to do with something after we die.

I see differnetly now.

To answer:
Did Adam's death though, effect the awareness of humanity? How? IMO No and Yes;). Which I have learned is a very Jewish answer and line of thinking! Adam's "death" can be seen as covenantal and I'm not sure I see that as effecting the awareness of humanity. Although, it does appear that Paul sees the impact of the OC as impacting humanity, doesn't he? BUT, yes, because if you look at this whole story HB and NT as the answers to life's biggest questions -- "who am I and why am I here?" -- if you look at the story of Adam as being a story of a quest to uncover why we are the way we are, (the we here being ALL of humanity) then, Adam's death does effect all of humanity. It's a story for all of humanity. Not because God chose a people to work with to bring about a reality for all humanity, but because a people chose God as a way to describe the reality of all of humanity. Whoa..........I think I just blew myself away!:9_cool:

Anyway GREAT TOPIC AMIE. Love to hear more thoughts!!!!!:biggrinbounce:
Christy

[christyG]

Oh, and also::o

Amie, you said:
Once they become aware of rage, they may not find it to be a welcomed part of their life.
and
Did Adam's death though, effect the awareness of humanity
Awareness does seem to be the key. As I think many here have said before (maybe not in the same words) our awareness of our position with God equates to what many have been taught is salvation. In fact, I think one of the first articles I read way back in the infancy of my journey was written by Kevin Beck and stated as much (I may be wrong, if so please accept my apologies:uhh: ).
Our awareness is our salvation. Once aware of what our situation is -- of who we are -- of who we are in relation to God -- Then we can begin to get on with putting the rest of the pieces in the puzzle. Only after we answer these questions can we begin the process of transforming our lives through growth. Just as the child who becomes aware of the aweful consequences of rage, can only then begin to move on to less destructive means of emotional discharge.

Many would say that the awareness we need is to be aware that we were born in sin. But how successful has this been in truly transforming people? -- child molesting bishops, etc....

But lets try accepting that we are born innocent and not just that, but we are born with a complete and uncorrupted understanding of who we are....We had all the tools and over a lifetime have been taught to hide them. As we grew, something happened -- something Adam could relate to -- we became aware. We began to be aware that we had the power not just to affect ourselves, but we could affect our environment. This awareness began to put a strain on us, because along with good consequences ( cry--eat, cry--changed, cry--held ), came not so good consequences ( pull cat's tail--get scratched, hit--get hit back) As we grew we became aware of the power we had to hurt others. And as with "Bruce Almighty", power doesn't always equal happiness. Thus, we needed to become aware again.... Aware that we are not in this alone ---that God is in this mess with us -- and that once true awareness comes we can begin to transform.

Now, you can call this "sin" if you want, but the connotations of that word in today's society take this term to a place that I don't think it was ever intended to go.

Maybe you all already knew all this but I didn't and this realization has quite literally changed my life forever. I love myself more than ever. I am now on a quest to regain the magic that I vaguely remember from my childhood. Each day puts me a little deeper into the magic and mystery that is God, and I feel more alive than I have in years.....

Could go on....someone else's turn:)
Christy

[ozark]

Amie,

It is hard to say the Adamic man survived the Parousia whether you see him as the federal head of the old covenant body or the head of the human race. After the Parousia we see only Christ. He is all in all.

Yet, God allowed our weaknesses to exist into the new age. Though we are no longer under the Law, our weaknesses still lead us to Christ. Without them how would we come to experience Christ as our righteousness? So many believe that the way to God’s acceptance is to finally stop sinning. No, the way to God is Christ. Learning that is peace with God not perfect behavior.

Here is another thought. If everyone was perfect, how could we come to experience the depths of God’s love? It seems love’s greatest glory is in loving those who are not loveable. Doesn’t God want us to know that glory and thus know Him?

[Amie]

I am now on a quest to regain the magic that I vaguely remember from my childhood. Each day puts me a little deeper into the magic and mystery that is God, and I feel more alive than I have in years..

I felt the same thing when first realizing the depth of God's grace and what it means. I remember when I was young, before I was influenced by the world and how it felt to have unquestioning faith. Not faith as in a religion. I mean faith in God's love. IE, my brother died when I was only 3. I have one of those looong term memories, lol - but I consciously work on the short term part. I remember just knowing that he was cared for with God. I remember knowing that God heard me when I talked to him. I guess that's the word "knowing".

Anyhow, grace is really nothing new, it's a return home.. a return to grace.
As Jesus said "like a little child.."


Here is another thought. If everyone was perfect, how could we come to experience the depths of God’s love? It seems love’s greatest glory is in loving those who are not loveable. Doesn’t God want us to know that glory and thus know Him?

Doug, this will be with me for a while. It sits in my heart. God is not a doctrine.

Why do you think (and I know this is completely speculative) God created humans, and not other Gods? Do you think that God wanted to experience something himself?.. or did a different thought altogether come to mind?

Amie

[ozark]

Why do you think (and I know this is completely speculative) God created humans, and not other Gods? Do you think that God wanted to experience something himself?.. or did a different thought altogether come to mind?

Amie

Now that is a deep question. I can only speculate that God is love, and the best expression of His love was in creating us as humans. We are not God, but we are recipients of God. We are not God, but God gives us His own righteousness (value). We are also given the privilege to give ourselves to God. If we had no need of God, could there be this divine romance?

[Barry]

Now that is a deep question. I can only speculate that God is love, and the best expression of His love was in creating us as humans. We are not God, but we are recipients of God. We are not God, but God gives us His own righteousness (value). We are also given the privilege to give ourselves to God. If we had no need of God, could there be this divine romance?

Did God dwell in the temple or did he not dwell in the temple?
Was the old covenant man still in the image of God or was he not?
Are we now more in the image of God then they?
Are we still being created in his image and if so what will that bring us to?
When we get there will we ask the same questions again?
Does being human just mean that he journey is unending because of the very nature of the infinity of God wherein no number of sequential additions in a potential infinite brings us to an actual infinite?
Is God's blessing the perpetual growth of humanity?
Did God himself want to experience this?
If so is there a level or context in which we are "gods" by token of God's own doing?
Did God not know that he would have to send in some way himself to deal with such things?
On what level are we now one as they are one?
Will this thread survive a million years so this conversation can be taken back up again?
IMHO as God gets the glory we find out that we are more than we thought we were. But not before we are ready too.
How far that may go is an interesting question. But not one that should anyway promote human arrogance.
JMO Barry

PS. Amie and everyone, great thread! :clap2:

[Tam]

Christy,

Can sooo relate to much of your journey. My kids taught me so much about God that it just blew me away and got me to thinking about alot of this stuff too. IMO babies are not born sinful....they're simply immature and need gentle guidance thru life in which EXPERIENCE will teach as with us all...simply an ongoing thing.

That really was a deep question someone mentioned regarding why God chose to create us as humans. Hmmm, I think if I were to take a biblical perspective...which for me doesn't necessarily make it fact in my mind....um I'd say everything was created for Jesus, his Son. I used to get this feeling at church that somehow we needed to create a situation where God's life revolves around us. But I think it's the other way around...I think the whole universe may have been made for Jesus and His pleasure. Maybe I feel this way because I like the feeling of being totally dependent on God. I used to feel so responsible for my well-being and for my fate. I find comfort in knowing that I am simply a precious possession of God's that he values and will take care of with or without my consent. Just like I take care of my children whether they want me to or not. Hmmm, deep stuff :scratch:

Tami

[backtothefuture]

Ok, I have been wanting to ask this question.
Don't know if it belongs here, but do any of you think there is even a remote possibility that God created life elsewhere? Maybe a different story?
Is God just limited to Earth and as far as we can see?
Maybe a different Garden, with a not born with sin story going around and woman have paid a price because of it?
Just wondering.
Nancy:eek:

[Paige]

Doug said:


Yet, God allowed our weaknesses to exist into the new age. Though we are no longer under the Law, our weaknesses still lead us to Christ. Without them how would we come to experience Christ as our righteousness? So many believe that the way to God’s acceptance is to finally stop sinning. No, the way to God is Christ. Learning that is peace with God not perfect behavior.

Here is another thought. If everyone was perfect, how could we come to experience the depths of God’s love? It seems love’s greatest glory is in loving those who are not loveable. Doesn’t God want us to know that glory and thus know Him?

I found an interesting quote this a.m. by Gigi Graham Tchividjian that kind of ties in w/your post. She says, "I do love sunshine, but as an old Arab proverb says, 'All sunshine makes a desert.' So, God gives me enough sunshine to keep me healthy and happy and enough clouds and rain to keep me nourished and fertile and totally dependent upon Him."

Don't know if it perfectly applies, but I like the way she puts it. It is also something I have to keep remembering for myself...

Nancy,

I'm going to have to ponder on your question for a while...

Paige

[Lou]

Can we know what is good and evil in God's eyes?

By determining what is good and evil have we traveled full circle to Eden and are doing the same as Adam?

[Tam]

Ok, I have been wanting to ask this question.
Don't know if it belongs here, but do any of you think there is even a remote possibility that God created life elsewhere? Maybe a different story?
Is God just limited to Earth and as far as we can see?
Maybe a different Garden, with a not born with sin story going around and woman have paid a price because of it?
Just wondering.
Nancy:eek:

Hey Nancy, Yes it's definitely possible IMO. Seems unlikely to me that this little world in this big vast universe is all there is. But then...I'm also not one whose completely convinced of the inerrency of the Bible and the story of Adam and Eve either. Inspired and inerrent with the message of the Messiah, yes, but not perfectly written down in my view. So many contradictions, especially in Genesis imho. I think it's totally possible that man was actually born of woman without the woman coming from man scenario. But....oh my...I realize that's way, way, way off topic! Ok, so in trying to bring this back to topic :biglaugha: If that were to be the case regarding man born of woman...then...that would definitely throw out alot of the traditional teachings on the seed of sin.

I think that puts us back on topic:rolleyes: :uhh:

Tami

Tami

[christyG]

I love you guys! I love this stuff!


Originally Posted by Doug
Here is another thought. If everyone was perfect, how could we come to experience the depths of God’s love? It seems love’s greatest glory is in loving those who are not loveable. Doesn’t God want us to know that glory and thus know Him?

Of the Jewish stuff I've read the rabbis teach about this balance -- this unique ability of God to be both extremes, only balanced. Hmmmm... balance... sounds a little like some other eastern religious stuff I've read. Hmmm.....

Lou said:
Can we know what is good and evil in God's eyes?
Good point. Good and evil do seem to be relative terms.

And Barry, whew, Barry, great questions!:clap2: Particularly liked:
Did God himself want to experience this?
If so is there a level or context in which we are "gods" by token of God's own doing?
Did God not know that he would have to send in some way himself to deal with such things?
On what level are we now one as they are one?
and Does being human just mean that he journey is unending because of the very nature of the infinity of God wherein no number of sequential additions in a potential infinite brings us to an actual infinite?
:eek: :clap2:
And Nancy, IMO anything's possible!

And Amie, great question also.:clap2:
Why do you think (and I know this is completely speculative) God created humans, and not other Gods? Gettin' philosophical on us:) . I've thought about this from time to time as well. In fact I have actually used it as a measurement to test whether or not I want to "buy into" a theory or not. For those who believe that the purpose of life is to gain a "heavenly reward" post mortem, I think...then why would God have created us anyway? Is he a mad scientist wanting to watch us "rats" run the maze and trap ourselves? But as for answers myself....hmmmmm.....? My first thoughts are that there must be something to this physical body, to our physicality that adds to our existance spiritually. But it is a question to ponder and mull over and revisit. I am wondering if you already have some thoughts on this?

Christy

[Tam]

Lovin this too Christi, Could it be that we are simply spiritual beings having a physical experience? Tami

[Truthseeker]

Hi Friends,

Boils down to 3 possibilities aisi:

1) We originated as Spirit Beings, put into physical bodies to return to Spirit
2) We originated physical beings; God joins spirit with the physical; we remain physical/spiritual

3) We originated physical beings whose destiny is to become Spirit Beings.

I opt for #3, but I'm open. :) --rhonda

[Barry]

Hi Friends,

Boils down to 3 possibilities aisi:

1) We originated as Spirit Beings, put into physical bodies to return to Spirit
2) We originated physical beings; God joins spirit with the physical; we remain physical/spiritual

3) We originated physical beings whose destiny is to become Spirit Beings.

I opt for #3, but I'm open. :) --rhonda

This may be correct Rhonda. And it is a very good prospectus of what may be possible.
Is there a possible 4?
I am suck on unity and diversity.
Are we an expressions of individuality that did not previously exist in the individual state but brings its individuality back to the collective of unity and diversity? Achin to your #2 and #3 with a dash of your #1.
Islands that pop up and look like particulars. And are particulars but underneath we are all connected under water. When the water goes down the particulars remain but in a unity context.
Not saying that I believe the totality of this. Just saying that maybe we do not have all the info yet.

Then we may enter into the issues of temporal life and life outside the temporal (if there is such a thing). I'm still working of what it meant that Enoch was "translated".
"but I'm open"

Lou's point is IMO important.
IMO The discerning of good and evil in Heb. 5:14 is the first-fruits transitional discerning of old and new. Rightness through human possibility or through God's possibility. Apart from this we have responsibility and consequence and the ethical choices of that. The good and evil of the forbidden fruit is IMO to be put behind us historically. We are not IMO designed to bear that level of accountability.

So then IMO "sin nature" that we may attribute to our reading of scripture is nothing more than the mode of existence that the old covenant creature was born into. And is therefore not inherent in the human.

Barry

[Lou]

I don’t know how to discern what is good and evil in God’s eyes.

What Judas did was evil but it was part of God’s larger plan.

Homicide is evil but that is how Jesus died.

The atrocities Hitler did was evil but because of that nations can now set down and work out their differences or others that set at the table can step in and circumvent war. It’s far from perfect but it is much better than nothing. Could have Hitler been part of God’s larger plan?

[davo]

Hey Lou, it just goes to show how good can come out of what we see as bad:

Gen 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

God is good!! :clap2:

[Barry]

I don’t know how to discern what is good and evil in God’s eyes.

What Judas did was evil but it was part of God’s larger plan.

Homicide is evil but that is how Jesus died.

The atrocities Hitler did was evil but because of that nations can now set down and work out their differences or others that set at the table can step in and circumvent war. It’s far from perfect but it is much better than nothing. Could have Hitler been part of God’s larger plan?

That is a good point Lou.
There may be issues and IMO are issues concerning love that guide us. But IMO they do not discern the good and evil that came from the forbidden fruit, because Adam was already able to discern such things. He didn't need the knowledge of good and evil to know that dragging Eve all over the garden by her hair in a fit of rage would be counter productive to their relationship.

IMO the shadow needed to be fulfilled. IMO the knowledge of good and evil from the tree was a shadow of another knowledge. Solomon's wisdom was an anti type of Christ's wisdom. So to the knowledge of good and evil as well as the law. The fulfillment of this in the transition period in Heb. 5:14 is imo the first fruits opting for Christ being the end of righteousness through the law. So it became a covenantal choice of good and evil while the old and the new coexisted.
IMHO the end of such a fulfillment leaves us back to your original point.
The fulfillment of the sabbath was not a day of rest.
The fulfillment of circumcision is not that which is made with hands.
The fulfillment of the knowledge of good and evil, the knowledge of sin, is not sin consciousness.
It's putting those things behind us and getting back to our freedom to learn and grow and be responsible in view of love and consequence where that which is written in stone and ink has passed away.

JMO
Barry

[Lou]

Barry said:

The fulfillment of this in the transition period in Heb. 5:14 is imo the first fruits opting for Christ being the end of righteousness through the law. So it became a covenantal choice of good and evil while the old and the new coexisted.

We don't have that choice. IMO the Old and New Covenant have came to fullness and served their purpose.

What is the "knowledge of good and evil?"

IMO evil is what separates us from God's love.

Good is what brings us closer to His love.

[Barry]

Barry said:


We don't have that choice. IMO the Old and New Covenant have came to fullness and served their purpose.

What is the "knowledge of good and evil?"

IMO evil is what separates us from God's love.

Good is what brings us closer to His love.

I think we are saying very similar things Lou. And good points IMHO.

So then it is often assumed that we are now "stuck" with this knowledge and need the continuing cleansing from sin through the confessions of our sins. It is assumed that our desire to transgress this knowledge is our "sin nature".
All of which means that Adam was something less than the sentient creature that he was prior to the knowledge of good and evil. The guy is not walking around like an underdeveloped 6 year old! He is painted (presented as) as a reasoning intelligent being able to take on the responsibility of freedom to eat any of the other trees, tend the garden walk with God, name the animals, have a meaningful adult relationship ECT. So whatever the knowledge of good and evil was it was not needed for Adam to maintain what he was already given and the responsibility that was already placed upon him.

Also such a scenario (of what we are allegedly stuck with) speaks lowly of the accomplishment of the Christ. Unable to bring us into much more to the positive than Adam had bought us into toward the negative.

IMHO the "still stuck with" idea fails under scrutiny. It is true that experientially we still come to understanding, but this is by token of the fact of our present reality in God's new age.

In the end then we are faced with those who would fight tooth and nail to keep their sin! "Don't touch my sin I need it so that I can now try and prove something important about myself." This of course is not done consciously or maliciously. But does leads one to the desired "us and them" mentality. Wherein we can compare ourselves with our neighbor and try and find some way to measure and compare our value in life. (And we wonder why there are so many gossip magazines at the check out at the grocery store). IMO this is still our immaturity showing.
JMO
Barry

[christyG]

More great discussion:
Tami said:
Could it be that we are simply spiritual beings having a physical experience? Tami
Yes, that is how I see it now. Or number one on the list:
Boils down to 3 possibilities aisi:

1) We originated as Spirit Beings, put into physical bodies to return to Spirit
2) We originated physical beings; God joins spirit with the physical; we remain physical/spiritual

3) We originated physical beings whose destiny is to become Spirit Beings. but I am still working this out...can't express it real well yet...but I see that through the God is all in all concept, we are but pieces of his whole. God is spirit, we are spirit. We are all connected with each other, with all life around us, with the sunset, with the stars, etc.....It seems to make since that if we are ultimately connected to everything, then we can concievable effect everything. Not sure how and why the physicality works into this, but I am still searching. Barry said maybe we do not have all the pieces yet, and that may be true. More growth is required by the whole---meaning all of the connections, not God.
This thought however, causes me to see the Adamic story very differently.

Christy

[Lou]

In the end then we are faced with those who would fight tooth and nail to keep their sin! "Don't touch my sin I need it so that I can now try and prove something important about myself." This of course is not done consciously or maliciously. But does leads one to the desired "us and them" mentality. Wherein we can compare ourselves with our neighbor and try and find some way to measure and compare our value in life. (And we wonder why there are so many gossip magazines at the check out at the grocery store). IMO this is still our immaturity showing.
JMO
Barry




Barry, I agree, by doing this we deny Christ and become self-righteous. I also think this is a way to judge others, "I" overcome my "sin" for God but you can't.

Is it possible that God has a need to experience physical life through us?

I know that is blasphemy and I am going to hell just for thinking it.

[Barry]

In the end then we are faced with those who would fight tooth and nail to keep their sin! "Don't touch my sin I need it so that I can now try and prove something important about myself." This of course is not done consciously or maliciously. But does leads one to the desired "us and them" mentality. Wherein we can compare ourselves with our neighbor and try and find some way to measure and compare our value in life. (And we wonder why there are so many gossip magazines at the check out at the grocery store). IMO this is still our immaturity showing.
JMO
Barry




Barry, I agree, by doing this we deny Christ and become self-righteous. I also think this is a way to judge others, "I" overcome my "sin" for God but you can't.

Is it possible that God has a need to experience physical life through us?

I know that is blasphemy and I am going to hell just for thinking it.


Lou, I think God does what he wants. If having a human experience is what he wanted to do then he's going to do it.
We know the Christ had a leaning experience by becoming a little lower than the angels. What that meant as such then for God globally, I have no clue.
How we might describe or discern a need from a want on that level may not be known either.
IMO however God is not so insecure that he must be praised constantly to feel good about himself. I do not think that, that qualifies as a need in God's view. Which is pretty close to what many think without really thinking about it. He want us to give him the glory because that is what is best for us. To understand life itself.
And then we get all bent out of shape if someone criticise or questions our faith or belief in God and Christ. Are we really defending God as if he was threatened by it LOL! No, we are defending ourselves IMO. IMO we got more backwards than we got straight.
We get on the defensive if someone wants to take our sin from us. Then we can't think we are that special person we thought we were.
Maybe we should stop trying to defend God. I think he can handle the criticism quite well. Maybe we could start building bridges with others by being less defensive and overly sensitive.
JMOs and lots of them LOL!
Barry

[Truthseeker]

Well said, Barry. Praise God that He isn't easily offended and doesn't need constant praise; He's been tolerating our flaws and weaknesses for thousands and thousands of years.

Along with "don't touch my sin" is the Old Man way: "Don't touch what's unclean!" Jesus was criticized for sitting with tax collectors and "sinners"--he didn't seem to have that same fear. Paul worked his entire ministry to tear down that perception: the wall of separation between clean and unclean, even tho it was Peter who received in vision, "Stop calling unclean what God has cleansed (but he had to be reminded)."

I think as people have the veil (the wall of separation) taken away--the grateful heart comes to realize: "stop calling unclean what God has cleansed!" and understands that we no longer "know" any man according to the flesh (that includes ourselves.) :) --rhonda

[Lou]

And then we get all bent out of shape if someone criticise or questions our faith or belief in God and Christ. Are we really defending God as if he was threatened by it LOL! No, we are defending ourselves IMO. IMO we got more backwards than we got straight.
We get on the defensive if someone wants to take our sin from us. Then we can't think we are that special person we thought we were.
Maybe we should stop trying to defend God. I think he can handle the criticism quite well. Maybe we could start building bridges with others by being less defensive and overly sensitive.
JMOs and lots of them LOL!
Barry



Good points Barry, I have not thought of it that way.