Physical Healing

[Mark]

Physical healing is a topic that has been on our minds lately.
Though we come out of a church background that believes in the
miraculous and healing, and we have seen with our own eyes and
touched with our own hands, a 'fulfilled' understanding has
broadened our perspective on healing somewhat. I think I have
a greater sense of freedom and expectation now than I did before.

We are regularly praying with a family battling cancer right now.
Larry, the father/husband/son has a type of bone cancer and has
been experiencing increasing pain. The doctors have estimated that
he has only a few months to live. His wife has lost several close
members of her family to cancer and others to other tragedies.

One of the main questions we struggle with is, "We know God can
heal, but is that his will?" A fulfilled view has given me a
new perspective on this question. I now believe that it is
definitely God's will to heal. But we are not sure of the method
He has in mind.

We have heard people make statements along this line: God is doing
great miracles in the third world. Why don't we see great miracles
in the United States? Is it because we are full of sin, compromise
or unbelief, or that we have become so confident in technology or
medical knowledge that we no longer look to Him?

But think about this. If we listed all of the people that were
miraculously healed by Jesus and moved them into our present age
most of them would never have found themselves in need of a
miracle in the first place. God has been at work for 2000 years
overcoming the powers of death and sickness by teaching us how
to heal ourselves. It is much like the Buddhist parable of the
fish: Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how
to catch fish and he will never again be hungry. God is teaching
mankind fish.

Is it God's will to end the scourge of Cancer or Aids? Yes.
There are answers, but many have not yet been discovered. It is
definitely God's will that we defeat all diseases. It is not
necessarily His will to defeat it for us. Nor is it God's plan
to allow us to spin our wheels in futility until Jesus comes to
work a universal miracle and make everything perfect for us.
It is not his will to work through only the supernaturally gifted.
He is teaching us. We have come a long way. There is still a long
way to go. Jonas Salk has brought healing to more people that Benny Hinn
ever will. That's not to say Benny's work isn't legitimate.

But God does give us grace in the learning process. We can pray
for healing with absolute assurance that God's plan is to heal.
But our role may be that we participate in the
learning process in order to obtain the greater victory. I believe
in miracles. I pray for miracles. But miracles are Plan B.
God's Plan A is wisdom, discovery, growth. And Plan A encompasses
the whole world. God is bringing salvation to the whole world.

We are praying that Larry will be accepted into a medical study
to develop and test a new cancer treatment. We pray that God will
allow the doctors and scientists to use this as an opportunity
for new breakthroughs in their research. This approach will not
only bring healing to Larry, but also to numerous others who
are battling this disease. We pray that Larry's body will be
a suitable candidate for the study and that he will respond
positively to the treatment. We pray that the doctors and
scientists will find critical answers to their questions in
Larry's body.

We have learned that there are many causes of disease. Poor
care of our bodies, poor nutrition, anxiety and unforgiveness.
We don't know the cause of Larry's particular cancer - but there
is one. And there is a remedy. God has placed the answer within
His creation and has given us a mandate to seek it out. How can
we possibly consider medicine an adversary?

We believe that it is God's will to defeat sickness and disease.
He is doing it before our very eyes. The problem is not that God
no longer performs miracles. The problem is that
we fail to see the hand of God in what he IS doing. He doesn't
give us as many fish as he used to, or as many as He gives those
in the third world. He gives us something much greater. But by
His grace He does give us fish sometimes. And we believe that
God will provide the miracle of healing if other alternatives
are unfruitful.

As we pray for Larry I find myself more mindful to pray for my
own small aches and pains and to pray for my children. Bringing
the Kingdom of God into our world is a battle. We are learning
that it requires perseverance, tenacity, and comittment. We pray
for Larry and for the cancer study. We pray for his family. And
I pray for this small pain in my thumb knuckle. I say you are not
welcome here. I think of my other pains, or the migraine headaches
my youngest son inherited from his mom and me. I tell him that
God wants to heal those headaches and take them away. It is not
God's will for him to have headaches. We remind him to drink
water. We must eat right, exercise, and treat our bodies well.
Every pain is an opportunity to persevere and to gain wisdom. We
say no to sickness. God has a better plan. God's will is to put
every enemy under his feet. There is hope. God's kingdom is
working in us today and has been working. It will go on working.
We need to see where God has placed us in His plan and participate
with Him in bringing it to completion.

[Paige]

Thanks Mark,

I found much to agree with in your post. I'm going to keep thinking about it too! We also seem to have a lot of people on our prayer list right now with health concerns and you've given me some food for thought on how best to pray for them specifically :)

Paige

[Barry]

a 'fulfilled' understanding has
broadened our perspective on healing somewhat. I think I have
a greater sense of freedom and expectation now than I did before.


One of the main questions we struggle with is, "We know God can
heal, but is that his will?" A fulfilled view has given me a
new perspective on this question. I now believe that it is
definitely God's will to heal. But we are not sure of the method
He has in mind.




Is it God's will to end the scourge of Cancer or Aids? Yes.
There are answers, but many have not yet been discovered. It is
definitely God's will that we defeat all diseases. It is not
necessarily His will to defeat it for us. Nor is it God's plan
to allow us to spin our wheels in futility until Jesus comes to
work a universal miracle and make everything perfect for us.
It is not his will to work through only the supernaturally gifted.
He is teaching us. We have come a long way. There is still a long
way to go.

But God does give us grace in the learning process. We can pray
for healing with absolute assurance that God's plan is to heal.
But our role may be that we participate in the
learning process in order to obtain the greater victory. I believe
in miracles. I pray for miracles. But miracles are Plan B.
God's Plan A is wisdom, discovery, growth. And Plan A encompasses
the whole world. God is bringing salvation to the whole world.


We have learned that there are many causes of disease. Poor
care of our bodies, poor nutrition, anxiety and unforgiveness.
We don't know the cause of Larry's particular cancer - but there
is one. And there is a remedy. God has placed the answer within
His creation and has given us a mandate to seek it out. How can
we possibly consider medicine an adversary?

We believe that it is God's will to defeat sickness and disease.
He is doing it before our very eyes. The problem is not that God
no longer performs miracles. The problem is that
we fail to see the hand of God in what he IS doing.

God has a better plan. God's will is to put
every enemy under his feet. There is hope. God's kingdom is
working in us today and has been working. It will go on working.
We need to see where God has placed us in His plan and participate
with Him in bringing it to completion.

What a positive approach Mark! And yes we will keep Larry and family in our prayers.

Is seems that God did more for us 2000 years ago than we realize! In realizing that maybe we can move in more positive directions a little quicker. Silly us. We need things like the dark ages and world wars to wake up!

Any approach that we take is going to need your type of positive spin on it IMHO. That is to say, it is not our place to think that we serve only our present time. Our brotherhood extends into the future. And that is a responsibility in our present.
And yes indeed, God has brought us very far up unto this point.
If what took place at Babel is now being reversed, on a practical level then with God, the sky is the limit.
JMO (just my opinion) :)
Barry

[backtothefuture]

Hi Mark
This post is good timing , since I am sitting in such pain I feel like shooting myself. And that is after going to a healing service and being anointed with oil for the 100th time in my life.
I have wondered all weekend about healing. Is it just part of the Bible Myth? Was it only for a time and place in history? Does it really go on today?
Sorry to be cynical. Maybe because I am 55 and walked a life time of pain and I just don't have the answers anymore.
On top of my own journey, I prayed for 27 people in our family that died in the last three years. Our daughter was almost one of them.
Was it my lack of faith that didn't help? Was it God's will that they all die?
Was technology not at a place to help not one of these people yet?

This healing service I went to on Saturday was for moms who had lost children. Especially since being around Mothers day, this church wanted to minister to those who had lost babies for what ever reason. Since I lost a son on Mother's day I thought I would go. They talked a lot about it not being MY fault. Then I thought, well, if its not my fault, than it must be God's fault.
Then I tried to kind of reconcile how it all played into my fulfillment views and I got "O" answers for myself.

Does God heal today? Not in my world. Why, have no clue.
I will be watching this post with interest, in hopes that some light will shine my way.
Thanks for posting.
Nancy

[Amie]

I have wondered all weekend about healing. Is it just part of the Bible Myth? Was it only for a time and place in history? Does it really go on today?

I think that biblical healing was to the purpose of spreading the Gospel. Once that task was accomplished, it had no more purpose. Compared with you Nancy, I have lost and suffered little in my life. I do know suffering and I hope to keep clear that I am not minimizing pain in what I am saying.

Matthew 9
1 ¶ And entering into the boat, He passed over and came to His own city.
2 And, behold! They were bringing a paralytic lying on a cot to Him. And seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralyzed one, Be comforted, child. Your sins have been remitted.
3 And, behold, some of the scribes said within themselves, This One blasphemes.
4 And seeing their thoughts, Jesus said, Why do you think evil in your hearts?
5 For what is easier, to say, Your sins are remitted, or to say, Rise up and walk?
6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to remit sins, then He said to the paralytic, Rising up, lift up your cot and go to your house.
7 And rising up, he went away to his house.
8 And seeing, the crowds marveled, and they glorified God, the One giving such authority to men.

Jesus told the paralytic "Be comforted, child. Your sins have been remitted." Only to the purpose of declaration did Jesus heal this person.

Now that the authority of Jesus has been declared and demonstrated in full, does the phrase "Be comforted, child. Your sins have been remitted." inspire a sense of abandonment, or the comfort that Jesus encouraged?


Sorry to be cynical. Maybe because I am 55 and walked a life time of pain and I just don't have the answers anymore.

More answers lead to more questions. You're a part of an exploration that imo, is a blessing to be a part of.


On top of my own journey, I prayed for 27 people in our family that died in the last three years. Our daughter was almost one of them.
Was it my lack of faith that didn't help? Was it God's will that they all die?
Was technology not at a place to help not one of these people yet?

The reality is that right now, in the present, did prayer help? Did they find comfort in knowing that you thought of them? Did you find comfort in your prayer with God? Did your belief better the situation for any of you? Was it better knowing that God was with you?

Those people did die, and I'm sure that loosing someone you love never got easier for you. Did your relationship with God help you to withstand it?
I don't feel that I can know the will of God beyond giving us life. Perhaps cancer is the better solution, or perhaps it is just a part of how things were made.

You are wiser than you know. Your experiences have made it so.

I don't think either, that we control life and death. Maybe it is God's fault, and maybe He can take that guilt. Have you ever yelled out to God?.. yelled at God?.. become emotionally naked and bared it all?

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Amie,
You know what is missing from the equation of my life? Its Anger. When I did some out patient counseling 2 years ago, after 23 deaths at that time, they asked me how I dealt with my anger. I told them I didn't have any!! How is that for lie based thinking. It is just now that I think it is for some reason appearing. Maybe I am calmed down, more than I think, and its finally getting through.
The bottom line is, since this is a safe place. I have felt all my life, that "its all my fault" and yet now I am thinking, "Its all God's fault" He was suppose to be my refuge and safe place. But it hasn't worked out that way for me.

I keep wanting to believe that. But the reality is, it hasn't happened that way. There are no words of comfort for me. I am beyond that. God has abandoned me. That is the only reason I can come up with for all my pain and suffering. That or, Its all my fault. I am as filthy rags and not worth the price.

I think I May actually hate God! I think I wish I had never become a Christian. I think that I need a new faith. I think that I am brain dead and just in a walking coma on most days because of my grief.

I never saw the babies I lost. The Dr's just took them away. They burned them up before I could even see them.
My life is about suffering. I have had enough
In the end, it doesn't seem to matter to me if all things are fulfilled or not. Hasn't changed my pain or grief.
I'm Broken.
How can you serve God Broken?
God didn't fix one person I prayed for. Not one. Not one.
Although in all honesty, I did pray for Elizabeth Smart for 9 months and she was found. I sobbed when they found her. But don't know if I can chalk that up to my prayers.

I think I am mad. About time I suppose. Good timing on this post.. or maybe not:eek:
Maybe this alien needs to go back to the ship:) The Mother Ship!
Nancy

[Amie]

How is that for lie based thinking.

Normal. It's the first stage of grief dear sister -- "denial".


The bottom line is, since this is a safe place. I have felt all my life, that "its all my fault" and yet now I am thinking, "Its all God's fault" He was suppose to be my refuge and safe place. But it hasn't worked out that way for me.

Perhaps it hasn't felt that way in the past for you. I'm so glad that you can feel safe now to feel!


There are no words of comfort for me. I am beyond that. God has abandoned me. That is the only reason I can come up with for all my pain and suffering.

Maybe it's not time for comfort yet? Maybe it's time to let the waters flow!

Like this:

I think I May actually hate God! I think I wish I had never become a Christian. I think that I need a new faith. I think that I am brain dead and just in a walking coma on most days because of my grief.

I never saw the babies I lost. The Dr's just took them away. They burned them up before I could even see them.
My life is about suffering. I have had enough
In the end, it doesn't seem to matter to me if all things are fulfilled or not. Hasn't changed my pain or grief.
I'm Broken.


How can you serve God Broken?

You don't, He serves you..


One night a man had a dream. He dreamed
he was walking along the beach with the LORD.

Across the sky flashed scenes from his life.
For each scene he noticed two sets of
footprints in the sand: one belonging
to him, and the other to the LORD.

When the last scene of his life flashed before him,
he looked back at the footprints in the sand.

He noticed that many times along the path of
his life there was only one set of footprints.

He also noticed that it happened at the very
lowest and saddest times in his life.

This really bothered him and he
questioned the LORD about it:

"LORD, you said that once I decided to follow
you, you'd walk with me all the way.
But I have noticed that during the most
troublesome times in my life,
there is only one set of footprints.
I don't understand why when
I needed you most you would leave me."

The LORD replied:

"My son, my precious child,
I love you and I would never leave you.
During your times of trial and suffering,
when you see only one set of footprints,
it was then that I carried you."


His carrying you doesn't mean you aren't feeling real emotion and real pain. He is present with you when you are not at peace as well. It is okay to feel how you feel. He has already forgiven you. You are safe to be as ticked off as you feel!


God didn't fix one person I prayed for. Not one. Not one.

Maybe healing them physically isn't fixing them.. "Be comforted, child. Your sins have been remitted."


I think I am mad. About time I suppose. Good timing on this post.. or maybe not.

I hear ya. You feel abandoned, mad, robbed.. !!!! I'm with ya sister!

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Amie,
After I wrote that last post I went and laid down. I just kept saying, I am broken lord and I am so angry.
All of a sudden out loud I said, ANGRY... Abandoned, Nancy, Greatly, Really, Young.

I was like, where did that come from. Maybe it was a light bulb moment for me.
And then I thought about all the things the Lord took away from me this last year while I was trying so hard to find healing. My counselor left, my Stevens minister had a breakdown. (how weird was that) my church disbanded, my doctors left the practice and the bible study I wanted to go to got canceled. So I just thought and thought. What could possibly be the purpose of all this. then it hit me like a ton of bricks. The purpose was for Anger. Its the one thing missing from my healing. Sitting in pain and sorrow alone has brought out the anger. The Denial is broken. Now, I just don't know what to do with it. I don't want to turn it inward on myself, but don't know how to throw it up.
Amie, what should I do now?
Nancy

[kevinbeck]

I apologize for jumping in. I find this one of the most significant conversations any of us can have. I've wrestled with these and similar questions myself--as I suppose all of us have. Why is this happening? Doesn't God care? Doesn't God know how much I hurt? My life would be better if I could feel better.

Nancy, you make a great observation. "The Denial is broken." But you are looking for what to do with it.

Maybe Job can help. You know the story. The odd thig is that we normally honor Job for his "The lord gives and the Lord takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord." But if that was the point of the story it would have ended there. The story tells me that this kind of response is a cover up of reality. In expressing out anger, dismay, sadness, etc to and with God that we can finally see what it is to be God's conversation partner. In the end Job remains silent, but that is not where God wants him (or us) to be. "Stand up and answer me like the human I created you to be."

Intimacy is born from struggle. As I see it, God does not want worshippers as much as someone to talk with. To me, this helps explain why most "atheists" know God better/deeper than many theists. The atheist engages God constantly--even in anger--whereas the theist is often afraid to look upon God's face.

Keep walking the path, Nancy. If it means fighting, wrestling, contending with God--so be it! You and God together will walk the path and forge that intimacy. I'm sure it will come in stages, but don't fear plumbing the depth and heights.

Blessings,
Kevin

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Kevin,
I really felt badly after posting yesterday. I must come off like a real nut case at times.
i tell you honestly, since my spiritual views changing more along the fulfillment paths, its so hard at times to go forward. I know to much to go back and yet, I feel stuck.

Someone had recommend doing some Theophostic counseling to help restore some of the old pain I carry. And yet, I am at a place where I don't believe that its the devil causing what is going on with me. I don't believe that the demons need to be prayed off or I am in Spiritual warfare as many of my evangelical friends would say. I am so tired of that stuff.

I do wrestle. I want peace. The part of the Job story that bothers me, is we know how it ends. In the end, God Blessed him. I am afraid God has left me. In my head I know that isn't the case, but in my heart, it says different.
I can't discern anymore what is truth, what is lie based, what is normal, what is shame, what is guilt, what is anything.
Everyday, I pick up my Bible and I commit to starting again.
Do we still need to put on the armor of God? Thats where I was reading today. Are we in a covenant of grace and forgiveness now? Does it matter if something is "secular" or not. What matters now? With fulfillment, what matters?
Thanks for the input.
Nancy

[kevinbeck]

Nancy,
You don't come off like a nut case at all. You come off as a real person. Funny how reality may seem crazy since so many people cover up what they really feel and think. It may seem like the "real" people are the crazy ones.

With the end of the Job story, maybe we could reframe it. Is the blessing what God "gives" Job, or is the blessing being engaged with God throughout the story? One thing the text does not say is that Job was "healed" of his sores. I find that interesting. Just as interesting as Jacob who walks away from his wrestling match with a limp. Or Jesus who rises from the dead but still has scars.

Do you need to go back to the Bible? I don't know. I do know that for a time I needed to go away from the Bible. To experience life face-to-face with God. Unmediated. This allowed me to return to the Bible in a renewed fashion.

When the heart argues with the head, that is a tough battle. Unwinnable. Just like Job, you gotta hold to your integrity. Be wiling to give up everything you "know" (just like Job gave up his view of God) so that you can integrate what you know and feel.

Restoring the old pain?! Forget that.

Have you read Byron Katie? She has worked wonders for me. Earlier today I published an article that you might find interesting/helpful. Mountain Climbing with Moses (http://www.presence.tv/cms/per-mountain-moses.php). I'd love to hear your feedback. I'd also love to carry this conversation forward together.

Blessings,
Kevin

[Barry]

Nancy,
You don't come off like a nut case at all. You come off as a real person. Funny how reality may seem crazy since so many people cover up what they really feel and think. It may seem like the "real" people are the crazy ones.



:clap2:
Barry

[backtothefuture]

Gosh Kevin,
What perfect timing for me on your article. You know, its not the mountain top experiences I am looking for. Its help with the climb.
I'm so happy for you that you took the walk up the mountain.
Life is hard, I have learned that. I have learned to see so much through different eyes these past few years, and yet, can't quite grab onto the truth that God is right here with me.
I still think, I am in grief. I am learning lessons through it and because of it.
Some days, the pain hurts more than words can say.
I think I scare people off because of my honesty. But I don't know any other way to be at this part of my life.
I played the church games for years. Either, I had to Little faith, must be demon possessed, or was a terrible person. No one I have ever met has encountered the things that I have. I have even as early as last week, had an old friend tell me, maybe I was cursed because we had gone through 23 deaths in the family and good God, why was I always so sick and having some kind of problem in my life. The weird thing is, that I didn't choose this path. I don't think on a conscious level anyway. I rarely (accept here lately) have ever complained. I have just taken it and suffered in silence.
I would like to see Moses, Kevin. I would like to be face to face with God, in real life.
And i really don't want to go back into counseling to deal with everything. I am tired of that story, and I want to go forward. That is one thing different that I have felt this year. Wanting to go forward.
Its my cynical-ism that gets in the way. Even still. This topic on healing, just made me bonkers. I was so filled with the agony of all the times I have cried out to God and felt nothing. Maybe for me, its not about feelings, not about seeing, its about finding out finally just who I am or who God really is.Talk about climbing a mountain. More like the grand canyon I do believe!
I am broken. But I don't give up easy. In the end, I rally and go on. Maybe I should start getting in shape for the climb God has for me. Thank you Kevin. Your words have calmed me and inspired me.
Blessings,
Nancy
I am not cursed. I am grieving. When I pick up my guitar at night and sing to God, its a lament of grief. That's what it is.

[Paige]

Nancy,

Recognizing that you want to go forward is a positive, IMO. It shows (to me at least) that you aren't defeated, even though you may have periods where you feel that may be the case.


Maybe for me, its not about feelings, not about seeing, its about finding out finally just who I am or who God really is.

So very important! I would say that is relationship w/God on a deeper level than most get to in a lifetime.

Paige

[Amie]

Wow,

I go off to work one day and miss more wonderful conversation. Nancy, you asked me what I thought you should do.. I think you're already doing exactly what you should do. The good news is that you've surrounded yourself with quite a supportive bunch. Maybe God isn't so distant?

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Thanks everyone, Amie, Paige, Keven, Barry, all of you guys. Mark, I hope you will come back with some more thoughts.
I mean that oh so very much.
One day I hope to see all of you face to face:biggrinbounce:
Blessings,
Nancy

Kevin, I have really pondered today about what you said about Job still having the sores. Jacob still having the limp, Jesus the scars. That was really interesting thought for me. I never looked at the story that way before.

Amie and Paige, thank you for all the encouraging words.

Barry, you have the best little figures that just bring a smile to my face so many times.

I keep telling myself, I am on a healing journey. Maybe I need to re-think that. By always looking for healing, I am telling my self that I am broken and need to be fixed. Maybe I am fixed, but just don't know that yet. Because I have been like the gerbil running around in one of those circles for so long.
Have never explored just who I really am. Maybe that is more of my journey.
Kind of like always looking for Normal. When is there really such a thing? and if there is, what do you compare it to!! Who set the bar for normal:eek:

I need re-programming so badly :)
Maybe you guys can help teach an old dog some new tricks!
Love,
Nancy
Resident Alien:eek:

[Barry]

Barry, you have the best little figures that just bring a smile to my face so many times.

I keep telling myself, I am on a healing journey. Maybe I need to re-think that. By always looking for healing, I am telling my self that I am broken and need to be fixed. Maybe I am fixed, but just don't know that yet. Because I have been like the gerbil running around in one of those circles for so long.
Have never explored just who I really am. Maybe that is more of my journey.
Kind of like always looking for Normal. When is there really such a thing? and if there is, what do you compare it to!! Who set the bar for normal:eek:

I need re-programming so badly :)
Maybe you guys can help teach an old dog some new tricks!
Love,
Nancy
Resident Alien:eek:

Lovely lady.
You do not have to know it (everything) all. Neither do I.
We are both on a journey. That is OK.
Your journey is rough and tough. So is mine. Believe me.
Lovely Lady, we are walking hand in hand step by step.
We live in the Lord, we will die in the Lord. We are the Lord's.
Let's keep walking sis!
I am yours and you are mine. We are the Lord's.
Barry

[backtothefuture]

Oh, So nice Barry thank you.
May your heart also hear the things God wants you to hear.
We all have skeletons in the closet I image.
Most have had pain and sorrow. I know I am not alone in this area.
May we be a healing balm to one another on those hard days.
Maybe thats how God heals in this day and age. Through one another.

Blessings,
Nancy

I'm cracked and tattered
broke and torn
low on faith
and mostly worn.
I need a salve to heal my wounds
to scab the sores that ooze and ooze.
By posting here, I get relief
I find much comfort in my grief.
I find the strength to keep pressing on
to find the place of healing balm.
Thank you all for walking with me
and sharing in questions that help me see..
that transforming though hard
for a woman of years.
is not really impossible
I have seen through my tears.
So I thank God for you all
As I sing my laments
and pray for you daily for your prayers that are sent,
I hope we find comfort and on those hard to live days
cause by sharing together we can be raised from the grave.
N.L.