Unable to "die any more" - "nor are they given in marriage" - Question

[Tim B]

Luke 20:35-36 (Young's Literal Translation)

35but those accounted worthy to obtain that age, and the rising again that is out of the dead, neither marry, nor are they given in marriage;
36for neither are they able to die any more -- for they are like messengers -- and they are sons of God, being sons of the rising again.

Given Preterism, and that we're living in "THAT AGE," I have these questions:

How can these people be unable to "die any more"? I mean, they psychically die. The apostles and followers of God physically died. Or do you think Jesus spoke of another type of death?

And, what about no longer being given in marriage?

Thanks,
Tim :)

[ozark]

Here Jesus is answering the Sadducee's question about the afterlife. I think we have to put Jesus' response in that context. Notice in the following passage he speaks of Moses and the burning bush. There God says he is the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Jesus explains that God is the God of the living, therefore Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive. Of course, these fellows physically died.

[Amie]

Jesus often spoke of the "dead" metaphorically in a way that only those "with ears to hear" would understand. I do realize that the Sadducees were specifically asking a question about the afterlife, but I suspect that Jesus's answer would apply in either life - where ever we live.

The "resurrection" was prophesied in Ezekiel 37 (or 36 - can't remember off the top of my head, lol) and it will have been a national enlivening, not literally folks pushing up through dirt, or spiritually floating up out from graves. Rather, they will have risen to function as "light to the nations". Once light had been given to the world, it couldn't be ungiven. They couldn't return to death, nor would they ever die again in purpose and function.

Within that "light", "in the resurrection", folks will have neither been given in marriage nor marry and I'm thinking that's because marriage was viewed differently back then. It was viewed in light of the law - stay married or be punished according to the law. But, when the law came to a point of completion ("love is the fulfillment of the law" Rom. 13:10), there would be no "giving" as in into bondage. Rather, marriage itself became transformed (imo) into a choice. I would much rather feel assured that my husband is with me because he chooses to be, than because he has to be.

Paul did not have to die physically to be buried and resurrected. Jesus had the dead burying the dead. So, "dead" doesn't have to be about biological death.

These are just some thoughts I had while cruisin' old threads. I could be wrong. Feeling rightness is tiring these days ;-).

Amie

[Dena]

Trying to remember what I heard at a Transmillennial conference ... either '08 or '09 ... or was it Baytown '10?

So many conferences ... so few brain cells!

Ok, the way that the Jews saw salvation, was to be born as a Jew, or to marry into Judaism ... to be Jew, was to be "saved/righteous".

Jesus was saying that a time was coming (the end of the covenant they were then in, including while the NT was being written), wherein we wouldn't enter a "relationship with God" via Judaism, via marriage, or being born a Jew ...

we don't enter the KINGDOM via marriage (connection to another), or via birth (being "born into the right religion") ... but just by waking up to who we really ARE.

And it didn't happen, IMO, due to a historical AGE, but it happens when we enter that "age" within ourselves... when we, personally move out of the "old covenant" of works, into the "new covenant" of grace -- seeing everything as it is.

It's an internal perspective-shift, that we see demonstrated for us, on the "screen" of history.

Seeing that we had never been separated from All in All, nor was it ever possible, in the first place.



As for marriage itself ... we invented the thing. How could we ever think that a relationship could be contracted ..? It can only be lived.

[Dena]

Oh funny -- I jumped on an old thread with you, Amie ... thinking it was "fresh"...LOL!!

[Me Again]

I'll jump too. I've read, and have some agreement that the "giving in marriage" had much to do with the Levite marriage requirement. If a man died without leaving behind a son, his brother had to marry the wife and give her a son (this is where the laws concerning polygamy came in, not as a general rule of man-marry-multiple-missus [4Ms]). It would make sense since Jesus comment regarding this issue was a response to the question of which brother would the woman be married to "in the resurrection."

[Dena]

Likely various layers of application ... whatever it means to each of us, at that point in "time" ... is what it means.

I love that God meets us where we are, like that...! :)

[David Timm]

Resurrection imo was about deliverance from the "times of ignorance" (Acts 17:30). God would no longer communicate in terms of the world of shadows, but rather (with the veil removed) with reality (that being the actual substance or truth). All would be delivered from the old, the legacy of Adam which was the independent status, because God revealed the truth that He is all in all at the end of the age.

The passage is not speaking about marriage as it occurs today, but was related to the law.

Let's look at the passage in Luke:

Lk 20:33 "Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife does she become? For all seven had her as wife." 34 And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of THIS AGE marry and are given in marriage. 35 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 "NOR CAN THEY DIE anymore, for they are equal to the angels AND ARE SONS OF GOD, being sons of the resurrection.

This needs to be seen in human independent potential vs God possibility (God is all in all). For example, no marriage in the age of Christ has to be seen as the same context as their being no male or female in Christ.

Galatians 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are NO LONGER UNDER A TUTOR. 26 For you are all SONS OF GOD through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither MALE NOR FEMALE; for you ARE ALL ONE in Christ Jesus.

Just as in this covenantal context the sons of God are neither male nor female, in that same context their is no marriage among them. Paul said even before the Parousia (during the transition) that the elect were already neither male nor female (covenantally speaking) because they were already members of the new covenant (2 Cor 3:6).

The "nor can they die anymore" in Luke 20:36 related to the sin death of the garden/carnal thinking that was a product of law. Resurrection was the deliverance from that order.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.

Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.

[Barry]

David, glad to see you here. I'll have to read through that a couple times.

[Me Again]

yes David. Glad to see you back.

[David Timm]

Hi guys, I appreciate the welcome. :)

I think this passage in Luke is one that opponents of fulfilled theology like to reference, and one that many adherents of fulfilled theology are confused about. I want to discuss the question: “Is marriage referred to in Jesus’ “age to come” in the Bible?” I think there is a strong possibility that it is referenced to. I’d be interested in hearing some feedback from anyone regarding the following.

In my post above I believe the marriage that is referred to in Luke 20 where it states that they “neither marry nor are given in marriage” was related to law, it was related to the world of Adam’s legacy that passed away. The passage explains that the sons of the old age marry and are given in marriage, but that the sons of God (those of the age that was to come) neither marry nor are given in marriage. In Galatians it says that the elect were already sons of God and also neither male nor female because they are all one in Christ. All things were made new by 70AD so in my opinion all people today are sons of God, everyone is in the Lord, and are members of the new covenant age (but not the new covenant).

My comments in verses are in brackets. I’m thinking that the passage in Luke could be saying the following:

Lk 20:34 And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age {of the independent status} marry {according to law} and are given in marriage {according to law}. 35 "But those who are counted worthy to attain that age {of the unity of all in all in Christ}, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry {according to law} nor are given in marriage {according to law}; 36 "nor can they die {have sin death} anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Because of this context above, I think that marriage of today could still be referred to in the Bible in the new covenant age context, or else the Bible may be silent on the subject. The phrase “in the Lord” I don’t think usually has new covenant age connotations, but in some places (including a marriage passage) it seems forced upon that phrase. A few comments and examples:

The law was ordained via angels:

Galatians 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.

Hebrews 2:5 For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking.

Based on the angels and law connection, look at the following passage:

1 Cor 11:10 Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God.

There is a contrast here with the word “however”. “Because of the angels” (concerning law) there was an independent status. But here “in the Lord” (new covenant age) it talks about there being no independent status, God has been revealed to be all in all.

Some more passages concerning a likely “in the Lord” new covenant age reference:

2 Cor 10: 17 But "he who glories, let him glory IN THE LORD." 18 For not he who commends himself {fleshly thinking} is approved, but whom the Lord commends.

1 Cor 1: 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God -- and righteousness and sanctification and redemption -- 31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory IN THE LORD."

This previous passage is clearly all about the covenants. Now concerning the potential statement regarding new covenant age marriage. In my opinion understanding the transitional period’s transformation of the elect to that which is more glorious (2 Cor 3:18) is key here:

1 Cor 7:39 A wife is bound by law {in marriage according to the old covenant age} as long as her husband lives; but if her husband dies, she is at liberty to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord {in marriage according to the new covenant age}.

I’m interested in any feedback and thanks for reading.

Blessings

[cjnobile]

To me, these many understandings of Luke chapter twenty have great merit.

I particularly like Dena's post that we don't enter the KINGDOM via marriage (connection to another), or via birth (being "born into the right religion") ... but just by waking up to who we really ARE.

In an attempt to integrate this with Tim B's posted reference to Luke chapter twenty section, I might say that just by waking up to who we really ARE, we enter/become alive in/resurrect to the KINGDOM OF THE SONS OF GOD/ANGELS/MESSENGERS.

I'm jumping in also with a further understanding of this section of Luke by experiencing my realm of love as it casts out my realm of fear about the death of my body of flesh, my offspring of flesh and my friends still flesh as the cost of being righteous.

I see righteousness as the Spiritually joyful prerogative of radical grace by the cheerful real self.

Matthew 5:38 NIV You have heard that it was said, Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. 41 If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Luke 6:27 NIV But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

And the Luke chapter twenty section discussed in this thread makes righteousness even more powerfully convincing to me.

I hope my next several paragraphs reveals how.

Luke 20:37 But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Acts 23:8 NIV The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits.

As revealed in Genesis 6, when any of the angels/sons of God/messengers desired marriage and reproduced children of flesh and blood, they fell away from the timeless realm of God our Father and were diminished.

1 Corinthians 15:50 NIV I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Like the end to circumcision - being the indication that the Canaan land possession covenant is over, so also is the end of any flesh and blood possession of the Heavenly Father's kingdom on earth. We are waking up to who we really are: Spirit, without beginning or end, a timeless, formless, infinite Presence, where the physical human race no longer needs to exist.

God is the God of the living, which [as Hebrews 12 reveals] is a great surrounding cloud of witnesses regardless whether being in the flesh or not. So I assert that those of us already postmortem have awareness of themselves when flesh and also have awareness of us still flesh. And this is just like the adult view that sets aside the child view but can relate from both.

Thinking in a form of childhood-orientation on what makes us valuable is transcended [and included] to what we think makes us valuable in adulthood-oriented form. These also are transcended to what we realize makes us truly valuable in the formless orientation of the timeless, infinite presence of the Spiritual Father. Spiritual epiphany indicates transformation. All Spiritual epiphany, prior to and postmortem that one experiences is this last trumpet now sounded.

1 Corinthians 13:8 NIV Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Note: I do not advocate the destruction of or seek to destroy the physical, flesh-based aspect of the human race - rather advocating only that it is of no real value as I just described it. For regardless of being in the flesh or not, I advocate and seek to joyfully/cheerfully provide real grace in His kingdom now while on earth for the Spiritual encouragement of my neighbor.

To me, the significant truth Jesus told is that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, you and I do not need physical, flesh and blood bodies to be alive, It contributes nothing for the dead to come to life. Apropos: flesh and blood is now - right now - not essential when rising to newness of life by the renewing of our minds which is the timeless, formless Spiritual realm of the Father.

When I browse thru http://bible.cc/acts/23-8.htm, I see Barnes and Clarke reveal that the Sadducees believe there is nothing but matter. They are materialists, and suppose that all the operations which we ascribe to mind can be traced to some modification of matter. They deny a Spiritual state and they observe the ordinances of the law; for they also believe the five books of Moses to be a revelation from God: yet they have nothing in view but temporal good; and they understand the promises in the law as referring to these things alone. In order, therefore, to procure them, they watch, fast, pray, proverb, etc., and all this they do that they might obtain happiness in the physical life.

I assert that we are too often de facto Sadducees. For we act to preserve and promote our "skins" and those of our children and children's children for physical life happiness.

Is it not ignorance to think the extinct world of the first Adam - the one of dust, of the earth was ever going to inherit the kingdom of the last Adam - the one of Spirit, of heaven?

I do not think that we are of that extinct world. Is not marriage/flesh and blood reproduction/parenting an entanglement in its extinct ways? Are not these pursuits a false god where its worshipers believe that obeying its pattern is life? I consider that world to be extinct and a futility to practice its ways.

Kelly Minter wrote a book titled; No Other gods: Confronting Our Modern Day Idols. In it she reveals that she is looking to her idols of our culture for life that only Christ can give because she exalts them as gods, things she believes can bring her life. These things she lists are the television, body image, boyfriends, girlfriends, food, shopping, family, children, alcohol, money, houses, spouses, drugs, religion, even her own sense of righteousness. She writes they are not necessarily bad things, just things that are detrimental.

So also I confess of continual idolatry. Idolatry is a continuous realm of reality that I have the choice rather to operate in the continuous realm of the Spirit. I confess of a continuous realm of fear that I have the choice rather to operate in the continuous realm of perfect love.

Note: I believe as Paul recorded in 1 Corinthians 15 that Christ rose from the dead and appeared. I believe that Jesus is alive in the Spirit but appeared alive in the flesh also for the sake of building up the faith of Thomas, you and me as revealed in John 20:26-27. And that faith, I assert, is sacrificing one's flesh and blood body in the belief of the truth Jesus taught that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Thomas, you and I do not need physical, flesh and blood bodies to be alive.

Is it not when we begin to grow afraid of the death of our body of flesh, our offspring of flesh and our friends still flesh as the cost of being righteous, that we can recognize that we are backsliding and shrinking from the timeless here and now?

Romans 12:1-2 NIV Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God - this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

I notice that verse 21 of Romans chapter 8 does not say that creation is liberated from decay, but that it is liberated from bondage to decay. So this means that physical death and decay continues, yet we are in the timeless realm that is unafraid of it!

I aim to be in my realm of love and not in my realm of fear. I aim this way, fellowshipping with you.

What do others think?

Good regards, Carl

[Me Again]

Carl,
Sorry I just found this. I spend most of my time on the internet via my iphone which I don't have talk-grace bookmarked (never used it to get here). Anyway, you've presented some very interesting thoughts, and I encourage you in all of them. Mine is not the responsibility to "correct" other people's theology. I will present, however, my slightly different take on "flesh vs. spirit."

Flesh, imv, was "human potential" not our physicalness. It was the "knowledge of good and evil." With that knowledge (demonstrated in the myth of Adam and Eve), we realized how "naked" we were/are. Nakedness is humanness. Knowledge of good and evil brought shame. Humanity became a works-oriented creature - trying to earn God's, and one another's, approval. Humans also became judges of one another - attempting to prop ourselves up by knocking others down. Religion grew out of that.

Spirit is the realization (as you rightly pointed out) not that our lives were all about life after death but rather LIFE, period. When we realize that God loves us right where we are; that the knowledge of good and evil no longer defines us, but rather we are defined by WHO we belong to, WHO loves us, WHO made its dwelling place with us. The Creator, the Divine has made us in its image...when we begin to walk in that realization, pretty soon we live to love, to act like the Divine. We are able to "return good for evil," because truly evil no longer is relevant - because the Divine works all things together - both good and evil - for our benefit. We grow from both good and evil. We have no reason to judge those things.

I think we are in agreement fundamentally; I just see flesh and spirit slightly different than you, I think.

Another thing you could do is post this article you've written to FB via the connection link. It might generate more traffic here. :)

[Barry]

Carl,
Sorry I just found this. I spend most of my time on the internet via my iphone which I don't have talk-grace bookmarked (never used it to get here). Anyway, you've presented some very interesting thoughts, and I encourage you in all of them. Mine is not the responsibility to "correct" other people's theology. I will present, however, my slightly different take on "flesh vs. spirit."

Flesh, imv, was "human potential" not our physicalness. It was the "knowledge of good and evil." With that knowledge (demonstrated in the myth of Adam and Eve), we realized how "naked" we were/are. Nakedness is humanness. Knowledge of good and evil brought shame. Humanity became a works-oriented creature - trying to earn God's, and one another's, approval. Humans also became judges of one another - attempting to prop ourselves up by knocking others down. Religion grew out of that.

Spirit is the realization (as you rightly pointed out) not that our lives were all about life after death but rather LIFE, period. When we realize that God loves us right where we are; that the knowledge of good and evil no longer defines us, but rather we are defined by WHO we belong to, WHO loves us, WHO made its dwelling place with us. The Creator, the Divine has made us in its image...when we begin to walk in that realization, pretty soon we live to love, to act like the Divine. We are able to "return good for evil," because truly evil no longer is relevant - because the Divine works all things together - both good and evil - for our benefit. We grow from both good and evil. We have no reason to judge those things.

I think we are in agreement fundamentally; I just see flesh and spirit slightly different than you, I think.

Another thing you could do is post this article you've written to FB via the connection link. It might generate more traffic here. :)

That's how I see it Ed.

[cjnobile]

Thanks Ed, for your Facebook option suggestion. I might try that.

And thanks for your thoughts on my thread post.

I really like what you said that our lives were not all about life after death but rather LIFE, period. When we realize that God loves us right where we are; that the knowledge of good and evil no longer defines us, but rather we are defined by WHO we belong to, WHO loves us, WHO made its dwelling place with us. The Creator, the Divine has made us in its image...when we begin to walk in that realization, pretty soon we live to love, to act like the Divine. We are able to "return good for evil," because truly evil no longer is relevant - because the Divine works all things together - both good and evil - for our benefit. We grow from both good and evil. We have no reason to judge those things.

I agree that this is the mind controlled by Spirit, which is life - as Romans 8:6 reveals.

Romans 8:6 NIV The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.

I've been recently involved with Facebook A Pantelist Community at https://www.facebook.com/groups/355412356848/

I've been addressing my own realm of fear of fleshly death and/or loss or theft of things of my flesh. And asking others for their thoughts.

I seems to me that to be afraid of fleshly death is the realm of a lack of LIFE and Love!

I think our Pantelist community can now further address covenant eschatology [the end of mind governed by the flesh and beginning of mind governed by the Spirit - happening in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye.]

Here is a part of a recent document post, How are our minds governed? at https://www.facebook.com/groups/355412356848/doc/10150634930751849/

Isn't it as soon as we become anxious over the welfare of our flesh [such as pain and death], things of our flesh [such as food and clothing] and the desire for and anxiety over the welfare of the offspring of our flesh [such as wanting children and having them with their security and generational continuance] that we can recognize we have become minds governed by flesh?

Isn't when we avoid inconveniencing our flesh and sacrificing our flesh and things of our flesh for the encouragement of our enemy neighbor that we can recognize becoming minds governed by flesh?

I think that recognizing that we are Spirit without need of flesh allows us to operate while still in the flesh with real grace towards the encouragement of our enemy neighbor to do the same.

What do you and others think?

Good regards, Carl