The Religious Woman

[Amie]

This issue runs so deep I don't know where to start. I reckon I'll start by sharing with you the statement I read the other day that spurred me on: "no religion in history has brought more liberation to women than Christianity".
So has there been oppression of women in our religious history, and is there now?

I would love to hear your thoughts on the answer to that question.

My answer is that they are definately condescended to. How many women Priests, Preachers, Pastors, Deacons or Reverends do you know? When I tried to get 'papers', so to speak, each denomination open to the possibility required an "okay" stamped by a man. The man giving his John Hancock would thereby be responsible if I messed up.

Women are confined to "working for" or "under". They are assigned jobs, some being positions of leadership.

Is that more liberating than other religions? I honestly can't think of a religion today where women are not depreciated to some extent. I don't find that Christianity stands apart from the other religions in its treatment of women. You may immediately think of fundamentalist Islam, but there are sects of Christianity equally as domineering.

I don't agree with who the finger of blame has been pointed at (men) for the state of things. I think they contribute, but I think that it's important that we consider our responsibility in the goings on in our lives.

There are true religious victims out there.. women who would love to be free but are beaten and shamed for their sex. It is the country that makes it lawful, and the religion adhered by the country's leaders. Those cries are being heard today. The more we can make them heard, the better for those women imo.

Choosing to serve is an honorable choice in my opinion. I wonder though, if making the choice to be condescended to and depreciated is the same as serving? Why do you feel that has been accepted by women for so long?

Amie

[Lauri]

Amie you asked: "no religion in history has brought more liberation to women than Christianity".
So has there been oppression of women in our religious history, and is there now?
IMO I would have to say yes and yes. I think fundemental Christianty has fought pretty hard againt women's liberation. In many of the churches I have attended in the past women's liberation is a bad word. Even now, my daughter who is attending a fundemental Christian college is getting pretty indoctronated. I'm not judging her, but some of the things she has shared with me make me cringe. Like she definitely wants a husband who is the head of the home and the spiritual leader. I worry about what she might be setting herself up for and what she might be willing to submit to. I admit I wanted the same thing when I was fundementalized (new word) and we espoused that during Jen's growing up years. I am glad I married a man who didn't abuse the position of head of home and spiritual leader, but I know that is not always the case. Now we don't feel the need to place such labels on each other.

Lauri

[Paige]

This issue runs so deep I don't know where to start. I reckon I'll start by sharing with you the statement I read the other day that spurred me on: "no religion in history has brought more liberation to women than Christianity".

Amie,

I have heard the same, and though it may be true; those who espouse this are falling into the same snare that seems to be prevalent everywhere. We are comparing ourselves horizontally rather than vertically. If I gather a bunch of people together, I can probably find some faults that when I compare myself to them, I come out looking pretty good. IOW, they need to get their act together and improve. I, on the other hand, am doing just fine. Is that how we are to continue to behave? I feel that is more a part of what is wrong with the way we practice our faith.

1 Cor. 10:12, "For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise."

I am less concerned with how "christianity" measures up against the rest, and more concerned as to whether we are doing all that God would have us do in regard to our treatment of everyone (not just women). Is there no room for improvement? Have we arrived? Those would be my questions.


Choosing to serve is an honorable choice in my opinion. I wonder though, if making the choice to be condescended to and depreciated is the same as serving? Why do you feel that has been accepted by women for so long?

I think there can still be distinctions made here. I can make the choice to extend grace to those who would condescend to me and depreciate. I may even be able to work side by side with them because we share some common goals. That doesn't mean I make the choice to agree with them or believe their "stories". Could the acceptance have been ongoing because there was belief in the "story"?

Paige

[Amie]

Like she definitely wants a husband who is the head of the home and the spiritual leader. I worry about what she might be setting herself up for and what she might be willing to submit to. I admit I wanted the same thing when I was fundementalized (new word) and we espoused that during Jen's growing up years.

When I was younger, I felt the same way. I believed that I wanted to take on the role of 2nd in rank, and I would say it too. I mostly said (and felt) it because I wanted to be desirable to the fellas. That was a really painful part of my life. I was depressed then, because I was me. I felt like my Dad only loved the roles that I could fill as a woman (as defined by his view of doctrine), rather than me - still feel that way.

Hind sight is so clear now in that even "head" of house, has to do with the source of its' growth. What I mean is that the woman 'gives' the man nothing in the reproduction process, he 'gives' something to her. "Houses" in the bible could be whole tribes and countries. The "head" was always the one that started it. It isn't authoritative at all.

Paige,
I agree with your assessment of assessments 100%. I think though that many who feel that it's true that Christianity liberates women, never begin to ask those questions concerning improvement - they believe they have arrived.

Using the vertical comparison as you described, do you feel that Christianity offers women what God has given us?

I agree that we should consider how to treat everyone (not just women), and I also feel that the glaring reality of how specifically women are treated (and therefore treat themselves) need not go neglected.


I can make the choice to extend grace to those who would condescend to me and depreciate. I may even be able to work side by side with them because we share some common goals. That doesn't mean I make the choice to agree with them or believe their "stories".

I agree, and would like to further understand how to perhaps inspire women who are entrenched in that story to be free of it. When we are extending grace, how do we also create visible boundaries?


Could the acceptance have been ongoing because there was belief in the "story"?

I agree, and I'm interested in defining that story so-as to confront it head-on.

Amie

[Paige]

I agree, and would like to further understand how to perhaps inspire women who are entrenched in that story to be free of it. When we are extending grace, how do we also create visible boundaries?

As to inspiration, we can only make people thirsty (have you heard that before?). By living the reality and showing that civilization is enhanced rather than destroyed, I hope that would be what others decide they want for themselves. I think that is what inspired me. This brings up another whole discussion because there again, we seem to need both examples (at present), so that people can see and make choices for themselves.

Boundaries are another matter. I'm still trying to figure that out for myself.

I really like your thoughts on "head" that you shared here:


Hind sight is so clear now in that even "head" of house, has to do with the source of its' growth. What I mean is that the woman 'gives' the man nothing in the reproduction process, he 'gives' something to her. "Houses" in the bible could be whole tribes and countries. The "head" was always the one that started it. It isn't authoritative at all.

Perhaps more education is also what is needed and this information shared with as many as possible can begin to make a 'dent' in popular thought?

Paige

[Amie]

As to inspiration, we can only make people thirsty (have you heard that before?).

"You can lead a horse to water.."?


By living the reality and showing that civilization is enhanced rather than destroyed, I hope that would be what others decide they want for themselves. I think that is what inspired me. This brings up another whole discussion because there again, we seem to need both examples (at present), so that people can see and make choices for themselves.

This discussion can go in many directions, I'm enjoying it :). I agree that people can and do make choices for themselves. IF we appear to be conventional though, how are we set apart as for "being the lamp" (for lack of better words!)?

I think that we agree that women readily accept the "story" religion hands them because they believe it to be true about themselves. As well, I think that we would agree that they are open to believe that because of their upbringing (please correct me if I'm wrong). What is the story though? Or do you think it's individual?

For me, it was about not being good enough and about being accepted..

Amie

[Amie]

Lauri,

Why do you think your daughter believes that she needs an authoritative head? Better yet, why did you think so?

Amie

[Lauri]

Amie you wrote: Why do you think your daughter believes that she needs an authoritative head? Better yet, why did you think so?
Because the church taught me that the man was the head of the home and spiritual leader and used scripture like Ephisians 5:23 to back it up. Of coarse they also taught that the husband should respect his wife and love her as he loves himself, but we know it doesn't always happen that way. I believed it and embraced it. My daughter is being taught the same thing and was taught by us growing up. Interestingly enough I wasn't taught that growing up, I was taught women were equal to men and that I was important and could do anything I wanted, so it wasn't anything to do with feeling like I wasn't good enough and needing to feel accepted. It wasn't that I was raised in a non-religious home either I went to church with the family during my formative years but it was a more liberal church. It wasn't until I started going to a fundemental evangelical church in my teens that I was taught this with such fervor.

I also really liked your thoughts on "head" and is the reason I don't hold to those beliefs anymore, because of my better understanding of the symbolism of those concepts in the bible.

Also, like I said I embraced what the church taught me, but like I said I didn't marry a domineering husband, if I had I may not have embraced it so much.

Lauri

[Amie]

Because the church taught me that the man was the head of the home and spiritual leader and used scripture like Ephisians 5:23 to back it up. Of coarse they also taught that the husband should respect his wife and love her as he loves himself, but we know it doesn't always happen that way.

That's my point - It did happen that way for you and me. Why? Why would you, raised the way you were, accept that? (you don't have to answer that of course) There are things that you wouldn't personally accept even then, I would think.

I was raised believing that a women's value is measured by how clean the house is, how well she cooks, how well behaved, clean, and educated her children are, and how satisfied her husband is. That is also how I measured my value, and it all fit neatly in the doctrine about the silence of women.

My husband never expected the house to sparkle and etc, that was my demon. The kicker was that though I measured my value though what I shared above, "I" was always neglected.. the "I" that wanted more and didn't have that nurtured nor did I nurture it then. That "I" was other than what I understood as valuable. It was the individual, rather than the collective. Being an individual, being Amie, was without value. I don't think that is uncommon under the banner "Christian female".

Amie

[Barry]

Because the church taught me that the man was the head of the home and spiritual leader and used scripture like Ephisians 5:23 to back it up. Of coarse they also taught that the husband should respect his wife and love her as he loves himself

"I'll love you as my self in that very superior way!"
The men had few problems buying into it. Many of the women have also. It can still work in today in some circumstances.
But the problem arises when the woman wakes up and decides she don't like it no more! This happens not only with Churched folk, but all through our society.

IMHO there is no room for gender superiority in our relationships. Some can still make it work for them, but the numbers are dwindling rapidly. IMHO, thank God.
Barry

[Paige]

I think that we agree that women readily accept the "story" religion hands them because they believe it to be true about themselves. As well, I think that we would agree that they are open to believe that because of their upbringing (please correct me if I'm wrong). What is the story though? Or do you think it's individual?


My experience was a bit different. My dad came from a mennonite background which he rejected when he became an adult. He didn't push us in the direction of fundamentalism. After my parents divorce, I went to a private christian school. It was there that I was introduced to heavy dispensationalism, yet also encouraged to partake in sports. There was another private christian school that was about 10 miles from ours that we competed with, and they were hardcore about the proper women's role. I was married in that church, but just couldn't go along with everything they taught. Thankfully, neither did my mom-in-law. Even though I was probably seen as somewhat of a rebel, I knew there were other ways of seeing scripture. (My mom-in-law gave me the book, "Beyond Sex Roles".) I found encouragement that others probably didn't, so I don't know if I can completely identify w/how most women feel in order to properly understand the story.. I also never had to put up with a domineering husband. He didn't feel that to be a godly husband, he needed to keep me in my "proper place". Through all that, I chose to be in a more traditional role. We both felt that the best thing for our kids would be to keep me at home if at all possible. Maybe that is why I don't feel the same resentment that some women do...I know this was my choice and I didn't feel that it was "put on" me to do this.

Paige

[Lauri]

Amie you ask: That's my point - It did happen that way for you and me. Why? Why would you, raised the way you were, accept that? (you don't have to answer that of course) There are things that you wouldn't personally accept even then, I would think.


I think that is the nature of religion, not just Christianity, but certainly inculding it. It tells you how to live, act, and think. There is not a lot of room for free thought and ideas in religion, or individuality. I have joked with my husband that Christians are like lemmings, following each other right off a cliff. (I think that's true of all religions, not just Chrisianity). If you are going to buy into it or are born into it you have to go along with the norm or you are sent packing. Yes, There were things that I wouldn't accept even then but I never talked about them out loud. For instance I was a closet Democrat, I was told if I was a true Christian I would vote Republican. Maybe the reason I didn't buck against the idea of an authoritative head is because of my personality, being the youngest, I tend to be a followerer. I have no desire to be a leader so I never found myself bucking the system in that respect. I wonder if women are more sesceptible to accepting what religion teaches because of their sense of community. Maybe their fear of loosing that community is greater than their need to search for their own truth, I don't know, just a thought. I know that is a huge factor for my daughter. Her community is the church and the Christian religion. She doesn't want to delve to deep into what we believe because she has seen first hand what believing what we do can do to your place in that community.

Lauri

[kevinbeck]

Amie,
Looking through this conversation, it seems to me that you are asking, "Did religion/men do something to women (thereby making women passive victims), or did women have a say in their 'role'? If they did have a say previously, then they have a say now. If women view themselves (and sisters from years gone by) as victims, then women will act as victims."

It looks to me that you are helping to reframe the issues..not to take men "off the hook" (so to speak), but to move forward with confidence. Well done.

Blessings,
Kevin

[backtothefuture]

Hi Hi,
I think that where a woman is in her spirituality is so individual. I have Friends in a little Pentecostal church. The woman still where dresses, long hair on their heads, no TV. The entire Standards and Holiness thing for them. I have wondered for years how they do it. And yet, they have happy marriages, kids have done really well etc. Most were born into this religion and don't even think to question anything different.
When my family started going there years ago, I just could not follow this procedure. I wore pants one day and went down stairs to help my friend teach a Sunday School class and she just about fainted. She really got called on the carpet and I got a phone call. We stopped going.
Then when we were in a very evangelical church for a while, I use to like to bring my tambourine and use it during the worship. Next thing you know, I got a call from the elders not to bring it anymore.
The Thing that I am struggling with so badly at this stage of my life is this.
I came out of a family that to this day, no one has any kind of faith but I became a Christan at 10 years old. Many years ago. My husband is a Christian, but we went through some major things. His alcohol, smoking, addictions. My problems. (he is sober 20 years now). Through all those really hard years, I always blamed myself. The church never said he needed any kind of help, I just wasn't doing my job. Needed to pray more, be submissive more etc. My husband has never taken on the role of head of the house and I use to Lament oh so righteously that he would. Then maybe things would be peaceful.
Now, I am so thankful! We have walked together through many hard things, that lots of our friends are divorced over, because of the womans role in it all.
I find my self now, cringing, when our 25 year old daughter, talks about only dating a Christian. (thats not always a bad thing). She is now looking for that fundamental stuff that we stressed here in the family. I can't believe I have actually told her, that its not all bad to date someone not a Christian. Now she is so confused and I am so afraid that I have poisoned her mind. When I first got married, I wanted something so different for my kids. My up bringing was so hard. I wanted to teach them faith and Gods love and we have to a point, but its really slanted for them from the fundamental view.
Anyway, Don't mean to get off subject. Woman have had it harder, but I have believed for years that God is raising us up:clap2: And I believe that, because so many woman I know are searching.
I share more and more now about my fulfilled views. Still emphasizing love and hoping that my kids will be the greater good. Or their Children. And they will have the chance to live in a world where woman have more of an equality if not just in the church or faith of their choice but in life in general.
Blessings
Nancy:D

[Tam]

So has there been oppression of women in our religious history, and is there now?
Amie

Wow guys, this is a great conversation. Loving every bit of it. Um, lot's of posts tho so I'm gonna just respond a bit to this and the last one from Nancy...but I have all you guys' precious words in mind.

aisi YES, women were, are, and always will be oppressed in the Christian religious world. I've been to alot of different churches and I've seen oppression in all of them.

Nancy's last post really struck me cuz she was talking about religion/families type of stuff. It was interesting to me cuz I feel like God has brought something really interesting to my attention in the past few days regarding this. I've noticed with alot of friends and ppl I know that there's a certain religious/pagan dynamic that runs thru alot of family generations for ppl. So it goes like this....A family is extremely religious, it causes alot of pain for the children, the children recognize correctly that religion caused alot of the pain. The children, as adults, reject the religion. Then those adult children still seem to have problems..of course not turning to religion, they turn to alchohol etc. Then there children grow up with pain from these addictions and decide to find religion as their antidote as adults...and the cycle goes on. Do you see this cycle? And of course this cycle can play itself out in many different ways.

Guess what I'm trying to say is...religion is a "thing" just like any other "thing" we may decide to use to get us thru life. What churches promote about submission etc...doesn't work imo. Thankfully I don't have a dominating husband. I think the "church" just sets ppl up for a fall when they counsel in this way, because for most women, there will come a day when she will decide to figure out who she is. I think it's only fair to tell every young man in these counseling sessions that because of this belief system, his wife will NOT be the same person at 40 as she is the day he marries her. Of course she is, but she doesn't know it cuz she's been repressed. But her husband won't recognize her because he's just marrying the "correct" version of a wife and doesn't even know who she is in a belief system like that. Just as when an alcholic isn't really who they ARE when they're drunk, the religious woman or man isn't really being who they ARE when addicted to religion.

I think it's best for ppl to forget about religion and just BE WHO THEY ARE. It would save alot of marriages! No smoke and mirrors! But, I wouldn't be worried if you're kids do go thru these seasons.

Gee, I hope this makes some sort of sense. It is sooo late and I'm drop dead tired...so sorry if confusing. Tami

[Amie]

First thanks to the fellas for posting here under what can be a sensitive subject :). It's really good to experience with y'all what I think is more natural - companionship. Until I met the men here, and then those that followed meeting them, I had no idea that there were Christian men like you out there at all.


Through all that, I chose to be in a more traditional role. We both felt that the best thing for our kids would be to keep me at home if at all possible. Maybe that is why I don't feel the same resentment that some women do...I know this was my choice and I didn't feel that it was "put on" me to do this.

I'm a stay-at-home-Mom as well, yet I do not measure my value by how high the dishes are stacked (I don't think that you do either). I don't think the issue is what my parents taught me or chose to do - or anyone else who makes that choice. I think the issue is in measuring value that way - and most importantly neglecting individuality in favor of tradition.

I saw a show (I think I told you about this) on a college set up especially for children who had been schooled in home. It is an extremely conservative Christian college. They were interviewing the kids and asked the boys and girls about marriage. One of the girls had a clear look of disappointment on her face and forced a smile, then listing off the usually hoo-plah about being a good "help meet" (as if that were a single word which is a noun). I was her.

Pursuing individuality does not mean that a woman/girl will not choose tradition concerning her children/family. I could have been a number of things and still would have taken time off for staying at home with my children. I feel that I will have made this choice either way. The difference is that I would also have developed my own interests and even perhaps had been a better Mom for it - more familiar with who I was.


Maybe the reason I didn't buck against the idea of an authoritative head is because of my personality, being the youngest, I tend to be a followerer. I have no desire to be a leader so I never found myself bucking the system in that respect.

So rather than a taught authoritative order persay, yours may have stemmed from basic family dynamics. Interesting! Do you think we'll ever begin to muck up those molds? I mean, will the predefined roles of siblings (IE "oldest", "youngest", "middle child") ever be questioned and should they be? If we were to begin to do that, perhaps the "women are less" doctrine won't be so readily accepted by other youngests?

That's my point in digging into this.. to get into solutions. We can learn from our lives.


I wonder if women are more sesceptible to accepting what religion teaches because of their sense of community. Maybe their fear of loosing that community is greater than their need to search for their own truth, I don't know, just a thought. I know that is a huge factor for my daughter. Her community is the church and the Christian religion. She doesn't want to delve to deep into what we believe because she has seen first hand what believing what we do can do to your place in that community.

Doesn't that run right back into "acceptance" again? I think the desire for acceptance is a natural desire. The difference seems to be that religion can define whether or not we're accepted, and maybe therefore "acceptable". I mean, why wouldn't a Christian woman feel accepted communining in general society just as well?

Nancy,

If I understood you correctly, you said that you blamed yourself for the problems you had experienced, because you weren't good enough (not submissive enough, etc). The very tough question that I'm exploring is why not just you, but so many women accept that self blame.. why they so easily believe the story that they are not good enough.

My Dad, for example, believed that dancing was sexual and bad. I NEVER accepted that. I thought it was pure nonsense. I knew that I danced, and never, ever, meant anything sexual. I rented the movie "Footloose" in effort to sway his view, lol!! Didn't work needless to say, haha.

Tami,

Good observation! I have some friends who believe addiction can be defined as looking to anything outside of ourselves to feel better. Religion is one of those "anythings" imo.

If we felt better already, we wouldn't have those hollow spots to fill up. I wonder what types of choices women (and everyone) would make differently if that were a reality. She may still choose tradition, but I'm not sure she'd so easily accept some of the things that go along with it.


It looks to me that you are helping to reframe the issues..not to take men "off the hook" (so to speak), but to move forward with confidence. Well done.

Exactly and thanks. This was largely inspired by an observation Davo made elsewhere, along with a discussion on another thread concerning rape and the (untrue) story that our dignity can be robbed.

Why not "take the stick back"? If we leave it up to someone else, things may never improve. The decission to accept this or not is ours to make. That's true of anybody - male or female.

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Gosh, reading through all these new posts today, I almost think I am hyperventilating. Because I can finally relate to some people. I know I am not crazy in what I have experienced or feeling.
I look back now and I thought I became a Christian at 10 because of something that stirred in my heart then. NOW at 55, i think it was unconsciously a way of escape from my family and the pain and abuse there. The church was on the corner and I went well forever really. Until these past 5 years when on this new journey. I actually felt God called me out of the church to get the healing I need. And I believe its working.
I was one of those addicted to religion. My love was based on law and doing. My heart though in the right place a lot of the times, was not more than it should have been.
The fundamental churches we were in all stressed the headship thing.
Now I look at it as, why was I always drawn to those kinds of churches. And in my journey, I have come to believe that I thought they were safe places. And by that, I mean, places where I didn't have to make any decisions, worried I would make the wrong one. Let the head of the house be responsible.
But what happened, was, I just grew so incredibly empty inside. Playing the church games and acting the Christian wife role, and so empty, that one day I just wanted to give up and die. My religion was killing me.
So now, I have the consequences of having passed some of that on to my children.
Talk about that cycle. I left a abusive family for an abusive church system and now at 55 trying to leave abusive religion to find a loving God. Oh my word, my emotions are just so high today after reading all these posts.
I'm going to cry. But tears of hope and joy in knowing that, I managed to take a few baby steps out of something so hard to let go of and take a chance that there was something better waiting over the rainbow.
I don't want to be defined anymore by what I do. But by who I am.
Oh, thanks everyone for the inspiring posts here.
Blessings,
Nancy

[christyG]

WOW! I've had a busy week and look at what I'm missing!:clap2: :clap2:

Loving this discussion! A few comments to throw in....
Great starter Amie:clap2: and your emphasis throughout seems to be women taking a more "in the moment" control of their lives, beliefs and actions. I would agree with that. I say that now, but I'm not so sure I would have said that a few months ago....I am the one who was content to just sit back in my old Bible studies at church and not comment too much so as not to rock the boat. I am not able to do that anymore and thus have decided to drop out of evening Bible studies at church. (Although admittedly this was as much to keep my children from being indoctrinated as it was to keep me from high blood pressure from pent up frustration:o ) Anyway now, I feel this intense desire to rock the boat.

A little about me...I always remember wanting a husband, but not to take care of me, and certainly not to "rule over me"---but, I was not brought up in a church. I have always considered myself a very strong willed person, with many "male-like" personality characteristics.....At times I can be insensitive, do not show affection easily, etc....traits that people usually associate with men. My husband on the other hand is not strong-willed, he is a pleaser and has many characteristics that people would usually associate with women, he likes to talk out his problems---with everyone who will listen:eek: :) , etc... Now I'm not saying we are a perfect match, and we have had our moments-- three babies in five years put quite a strain on us in many ways---but we do compliment each other very well.

I have had the chance in two different work settings to work with two different girls younger than me that I just adored. I was friends with them both and mentored them in many ways. Well, each one eventually got married and both chose very dominating men. Both from very strict and male dominated religious backgrounds. I remember sitting through the wedding shower for my first friend, Laura, as she opened gift after gift of kitchen utensils, and cooking supplies, aprons, towels, toasters, etc... I found myself getting more and more sick.:( I could see her youth and vitality running out of her and I was sick. I came up to her after the shower and told her to remember who she was and not think that that(kitchen and "service" stuff) was all marriage was about. I told her marriage was about fun and love and adventure. I also told her to save the reciepts and take half the stuff back and trade it in on something that she might actually enjoy doing instead of cooking and cleaning. .......At the wedding of my second friend, the minister had a whole commitment piece where he instructed the bride that she was now to be her husband's posession:eek: :eek: A women sitting behind me wispered to her husband, posession?. The minister then proceeded to quote from Timothy and such in the way to instruct the bride on her new role. I wanted to scream! I wanted to grab her and run! My problem with my friends is not the marriage itself, but the picture being painted for them by others of what marriage "should" be.

I do feel we as women need to take a more active role in changing our world. I struggle now with how to create the most change? If you step outside of church then the churched folks discount you as an outsider that just doesn't get it. But on the other hand can we really change the "churched" folks? Is it best to just start anew?

Christy

[Amie]

But what happened, was, I just grew so incredibly empty inside. Playing the church games and acting the Christian wife role, and so empty, that one day I just wanted to give up and die. My religion was killing me

That is what I was talking about going through as well. I could keep the house spotless, and do everything out of my power (lol, I was obsessed) to keep everything perfect, and I still wasn't fulfilled.


I don't want to be defined anymore by what I do. But by who I am.

Wow! Now that's quotable!


I do feel we as women need to take a more active role in changing our world. I struggle now with how to create the most change? If you step outside of church then the churched folks discount you as an outsider that just doesn't get it. But on the other hand can we really change the "churched" folks? Is it best to just start anew?

I think it is key to change ourselves, and then exist in the world amongst others. It's really hard though, to face the tough stuff. Before anyone can take control over a situation, they have to first realize the control that they had in the first place. It is important to remember that while we had a choice and we were not powerless, if we knew better, we will have done better. It's not about beating us up, it's about learning from ourselves.

How would you use that wisdom? Ask thought-provoking questions? Live it? I think what we do with it is very individual.

Amie