Nero

[backtothefuture]

With all the talk about tomorrow being 6-6-06, our newspapers have been filled with stories how tomorrow is going to be the end of the world. So I want you guys to know that I love you all just in case something happens:biggrinbounce:
If not,
I would like to know if Nero is considered to be the Anti Christ. I don't even know if that is an appropriate label. Would the followers of Christ at the time, recognized him for the evil person he was and what he was really representing. Would they have seen the new covenant happening before their eyes.
thanks,
Nancy:eek:

[Tam]

Nancy, if the rapture happens, can I have your car? :D Tami

[backtothefuture]

Sorry Tami,
I promised it to my friend Suzi:biggrinbounce:
Nancy

[Lou]

For the last 2000 years many have claimed that Nero was the beast/anti-Christ of Revelation. By having such a long time to tinker with that they make it sound good. But me being a rebel I see it differently. First it is not 6-6-6 it is six hundred and sixty-six. IMO this is a reference to Solomon and him receiving six hundred and sixty talents of gold a year as salary. God forbade the multiplying of gold, horses and wives and Solomon did all. He also married foreign wives that brought their gods with them. Solomon had great wisdom (knowledge) which he used to gain all the earthly riches. To sum it up Solomon was an apostate Jew. The beast was apostate Judaism that rejected and tried to stop the Messiah and His Church.

[backtothefuture]

Lou,
I have never heard about this and Solomon. Is there an article that goes into further information on this. I find it very interesting.
Thanks,
Nancy

[Amie]

I agree with Lou, I do not think that Nero was the beast. I think that he was one of the beasts metaphorical "heads" as leader of Rome. Certainly it was not Rome that was cast into the lake of fire.

I'm not sure that there's an article out there yet. Hmmm, maybe I'll whip one up after the conference..haha..

Amie

[Lou]

I will try to get something together tonight or in the AM.

[Amie]

I will try to get something together tonight or in the AM.

Looking forward to it!!

[Lou]

Nancy these posts were made originally made on more of a debate style forum. They come across strongly, I haven’t had had time to rewrite them in a softer version. So please don’t think I am trying to force this view on you, I am just putting it out to consider.



Revelation 13:4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast,

The source of authority for the beast is the dragon.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan,

Were is Rome/Nero ever called serpent, devil or Satan?

Acts 13:10 and said, "You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil,

Were are Jews ever called the children of Rome/Nero?

1 John 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God

John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil

Matthew 23:33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

Look at what Jesus said to Jews, He called them serpents and said they would not escape a fiery end.

Now look at what John said would happen.

The Beast had a fiery end.

Revelation 19: 19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.


Also look at what is being said.

Revelation 13: 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.

Revelation 19:20…… false prophet who performed the signs in his presence………

Revelation 16: 13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs; 14 for they are spirits of demons, performing signs,


Revelation 13: 3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;

If Nero was the king or any other Caesar, how did they get resurrected?

Did Satan resurrect Nero?

Is there a historical account of Nero actual dyeing and coming back to life?

A “fatal” wound always means dead.

Revelation 15: 2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.
3 And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, _"Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations! 4 "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED."

Why would they sing the “song of Moses?”

The song of Moses is what would happen to the apostate Jews in the latter days.


Deuteronomy 32:------- 20 "Then He said, `I will hide My face from them, I will see what their end shall be; For they are a perverse generation, Sons in whom is no faithfulness.

22 For a fire is kindled in My anger, And burns to the lowest part of Sheol, And consumes the earth with its yield, And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains.

24 `They will be wasted by famine, and consumed by plague And bitter destruction;

Matthew 23:35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth,

Matthew 17:17 Then Jesus answered and said, "O faithless and perverse generation,

Luke 9:41 Then Jesus answered and said, "O faithless and perverse generation

What of this was said to Rome?

None, it was all said to Jews!

Revelation 19: 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword

Was Nero “cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone”?

[Paige]

I'm following you also, Lou. You said:


Revelation 13: 3 I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast;

If Nero was the king or any other Caesar, how did they get resurrected?

Did Satan resurrect Nero?

Is there a historical account of Nero actual dyeing and coming back to life?

A “fatal” wound always means dead.


It doesn't sound like it fits with Nero to me, but can you explain how you see it fitting in with the Jews? I readily admit that these parts of Rev. are still somewhat of a mystery to me...

Paige

[Lou]

IMO the seven heads are the Jewish sects during that time. There was great political differences were one sect would gain the support of the people then another would gain support. The zealots fit as the one that had a fatal head wound. they were the ones that set fire to Jerusalem to bring it all to a end. Rome didn't destroy Jerusalem, it was destroyed from within.I will try to elaborate more on this tonight.

[Lou]

I haven’t found my references yet so I will wing it. The Zealots first showed up about the time Herod the Great came to power, circa 37BC. Herod was an Edomite, from the line of Esau. This didn’t set well with many of the Jews so they (Zealots) rebelled more or less like organized terrorists. In AD6 the Zealots were put down hard and till the AD60’s were loosely organized. At that time there were power struggles and toward the end of the Jewish war with Rome they were in control (if it could be called that) of Jerusalem.

[Paige]

OK, now I see how that fits with the fatal headwound that healed. Thanks for the info! :)

Paige

[Amie]

My thoughts on the beast are here: http://talk-grace.com/showthread.php?t=130 though I am listening to Lou and reserve the right to learn something new :)

Amie

[Lou]

Amie, and all, I am not dogmatic about this but at this point it is were I am at.

[backtothefuture]

Lou,
Did Nero set himself up in the temple and call himself God do you know? I was reading in Thessalonians the past few days were it talks about the temple being desecrated and the lawless one, setting himself up as God to be worshiped.
Thanks,
Nancy

[Lou]

Lou,
Did Nero set himself up in the temple and call himself God do you know? I was reading in Thessalonians the past few days were it talks about the temple being desecrated and the lawless one, setting himself up as God to be worshiped.
Thanks,
Nancy


No but John Levi of Girsulia (sp?) the Zealot did all of those.

[jlv]

Nancy,

Caesars standards were set up in the holy place. However, I believe that Matt. 24:15 refers to the slaughter of the priests on the altar by the Zealots and the Idumeans sometime between the two Roman sieges (AD 68?)

JL

[Maurice A. Williams]

Hello backtothefuture,

It was Caligula who had a statue made of himself and ordered it placed within the Jewish Temple so Caligula could be recognized as a God. When it arrived in Judea, the Judeans protested and appeared ready to die rather than see it placed in the Temple. The Roman general Petronius decided not to risk a big riot and took the statue out of Judea. Caligula, outraged, ordered Petronius to commit suicide. Before Petronius complied with the sentence, Caligula was assassinated.

All the Caesars were considered gods. It started when Augustus said that Julius Caesar was a god. He took Caesar’s family name and used it as a title. Augustus called himself Caesar Augustus and announced that he was divine also. His successors, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, all of the same family as Julius Caesar, claimed to be gods.

Nero started Roman persecution of Christians, so, to the early Christians, he might seem to be the Antichrist. Nero was sentence to death, but committed suicide as the soldiers entered his hiding place. The Roman Empire almost fell apart because there was no successor within Julius Caesar’s family. Civil wars broke out as three generals vied for control. All three were killed within a short period of time.

Then a new family took control of the Empire, the Flavian family starting with Vespasian, the general who conquered the Judean countryside, in A.D. 66-68. Vespasian stabilized Rome under his leadership. He also took the title “Caesar” and was honored as a god. His son Titus, who conquered Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple in A.D 70, succeeded him. His brother Domitian succeeded Titus. All three were considered gods, as were the later Caesars from other families.

Domitian was as evil as Nero. He resumed the persecutions against Christians. He could have been the person John the Evangelist identified as a new persecutor. He would be another Nero and was coming soon. Nero’s code number was 666. Domitian was one of the heads of the beast (the head that was soon to come). The beast from the sea could be John’s symbol for the Roman Empire. The beast from the land could be a symbol for a soon-to-arrive Caesar who would resume persecutions against Christians. This would make good sense to the Christians who were persecuted under Domitian.

This is probably too much detail, but I hope it helps.

Sincerely,

Maurice A. Williams

[Paige]

Maurice,

I gather that you see Rev. written after 70? If so, I must disagree. The internal evidence tells me that it was written while Jerusalem still stood. Therefore, I do not believe John was ever referring to Domitian.


The historical accounts I read say there is no comparison between Nero's persecution of christians and Domitian's.

Paige

[Maurice A. Williams]

Hi Paige,

Actually, I think much of Revelation was based on the preaching of John the Baptist when the Baptist explained who was coming after him and what would happen to those who do not accept the Messiah and try to destroy his mission. This is not my own idea. I picked it up from J. M. Ford who wrote the volume on Revelation in The Anchor Bible Series.

What the Baptist preached was repeated by his disciples, some of whom became Christian, one of whom was John the Evangelist. There were some additions (or redactions) to what the Baptist preached, and, finally, John the Evangelist, in A.D. 96, at Patmos, redacted the entire text and added the letters to the seven churches.

If what Ford argues is true, then it is easy for me to see that most of Revelation was meant for the Judeans of Christ’s time. Chapter four explains who the Messiah is, and what relationship the Messiah has with God. The succeeding chapters explain what will happen if those who should have been expecting the Messiah reject him. The four winds and three woes predict what will happen to the Judeans (this present generation) if they try to destroy the Messiah’s mission. The third woe “the end is here” predicts the downfall of Judea so that those who accept the Messiah can spread his message to the whole world. I think this happened in A.D. 131-5 when Rome utterly destroyed Judea, moved the survivors to other countries, and brought in foreign people. For many centuries, Judea no longer existed, and the Judean people were scattered all over the Middle East, Europe, and America. Even as late as 1856, there were only 10,500 Jews in all of Palestine.

Then follows the marriage feast of the lamb. Jesus “marries” his church. The remaining chapters predict some things that will happen during the church age. The last chapters describe what will happen at the end of the church age and what God’s eternal kingdom will be like.

So, no, I don’t think Revelation was written in its entirety after A.D. 70.

Sincerely,

Maurice A. Williams

[Maurice A. Williams]

Lots of thoughts in this thread. I have some opinions on the identity of the beast with seven heads.

I think the beast from the sea (Rev. 13) is an image for the Roman Empire. John describes it as rising from the sea. The only sea adjacent to Judea is the Mediterranean Sea. Rome is directly opposite Judea across the Mediterranean Sea. The beast has seven heads. One head has a mortal wound, but the beast still lives. The beast just received the dragon’s throne, power, and vast authority. I think the dragon is Satan. The image of a dragon for Satan is also used when the dragon tries to devour the child born of the woman (Rev. 12:3-5) and is used again when the dragon went to the sand of the sea to seek help in destroying the woman and her child (Rev. 12:17). When the dragon went to the sand of the sea (the seashore), the image of a beast rising from the sea is described.

I think the seven heads are the seven “divine” Caesars starting with Augustus, who announced that Julius Caesar was a god and took the title “Caesar” for himself. He was the first ruler of Rome that announced that he was a god while still alive. Augustus was followed by Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, all claiming to be divine. Nero was the fifth head.

This fifth head suffered a mortal wound when Nero committed suicide. The first five heads were all members of the same family. There was no successor pre-selected for Nero. The Roman government almost fell apart as three generals tried to assume power and were defeated by rivals, all within two years. This is the mortal wound that almost destroyed the Empire. The Roman Empire could have fallen apart just like the Greek Empire fell apart when Alexander the Great died.

There are seven heads in the image. The other two heads are Vespasian, whose popularity saved the Empire from continual civil war (Vespasian had led the Roman army to the walls of Jerusalem in the war of A.D. 66-70) and his son Titus (who finished the war by destroying Jerusalem and The Temple in A.D. 70).

Then Rev. 13:11-12 describes a beast from the land that exercised all the authority of the beast from the sea and made everybody worship the beast from the sea whose mortal wound was healed. In my opinion, this beast from the land was the next ruler of the Empire, Vespasian’s second son, Domitian. Domitian really got carried away being the “divine” Caesar. He had a sadistic character just like Nero, and he resumed Nero’s persecutions of Christians.

I think Domitian was the first of many “Antichrists” who tried to destroy Christianity throughout the church age. I think there are more to come, each worse than the preceding one until, at the end of the world, one comes with everything Satan has to offer to destroy Christianity. I think, when that time comes, God will intervene and put an end to all disobedience.

I thought I’d throw in my two cents.

Sincerely,

Maurice A. Williams

[Amie]

Maurice,

Thanks for throwing in that two pennies :). I suspect that the beast itself is Israel. Rome, after all, was never cast into the abyss. I'm still studyin' and learnin' though.

Good "seein'" ya

Amie