View Full Version : Contrast?
Is it true that without suffering, we wouldn't know relief?
Is it true that if we didn't know sin, we wouldn't know God?
? Amie ?
Barry
06-12-2006, 07:19 AM
Hi Amie,
good questions.
Those questions can be asked both for the individual and for the historical. The question then is, too what extent can the historical replace the individual-experiential.
IMHO it (the lessons of history) to a large extent can perform quite well. IMHO we are getting there but still a ways to go.
Life is becoming more precious in recent years. This trend too must increase for this to work out.
JMO Barry
Paige
06-12-2006, 09:05 AM
I'm thinking that the contrast is necessary. Have you ever met people who never had to work for anything? Never experienced any adversity?
Is it true that if we didn't know sin, we wouldn't know God?
This one I'm unsure of. Jesus never knew sin by partaking in it, but He knew God (more intimately than any other, IMO). Yet, Jesus did know sin because he surrounded with it. He didn't take it in, but He did take it on. This is making my brain hurt, lol.
Paige
kevinbeck
06-12-2006, 10:47 AM
Amie,
To play off of Byron Katie...yet it is true because that is the way it is. To aruge with reality is insanity.
IMHO it (the lessons of history) to a large extent can perform quite well. IMHO we are getting there but still a ways to go.
I think that there are individual lessons, but don't doubt for a minute the importance of what humanity has learned as a whole. It really looks like the world is getting better and is headed for better places.
I just wonder what we set ourselves up for when we go into the future with the belief that suffering is necessary. I'll play off Katie too and ask "How do you act when you think that thought?"
Knowing sin may be connected to suffering though, I'm considering. In Luke 7:40-43 Jesus uses a parable to express that those who are forgiven much, love much.
I don't think that means that it is necessary to convince someone that they are scumbucket dirt for them to appreciate the salvation of Jesus. I wonder if the salvation that Jesus offered is minimized in the thinking that it is all about that, and then placing confidence in Jesus to make us worthy of God's love.
My experience was that confidence in His evidencing that I am worthy of God's love enabled my salvation. I was able to then face any mistakes or scumbucketness to make positive changes because knowing the grace of God (that He loves me not just "even though", but "even with") enabled me to afford myself such grace. Again, this is my experience - I was able to face that I messed up without fear, to forgive me and to move forward.
So, for me it seemed to have happened the opposite of what much of Christianity demands of people (realize you are scum then be grateful). It seems to have been the opposite for that woman in Luke 7 as well since it was because he had forgiven her that she was thankful.
It seems then that more would know God through knowing grace, than through knowing sin - or wasn't that the purpose of humanity knowing sin in the first place? To illuminate grace?
It also seems like much of Christianity demands people to 'know sin" and that may actually create suffering.
Just some thoughts anyhow, thanks for tossing this around with me.
Amie
ozark
06-12-2006, 07:09 PM
These are some good questions. Paul said to those in the transitional period that it was through many tribulations that they entered the kingdom of God (acts 14:22). The writer of Hebrews describes God as a consuming fire (Heb 12:29). These things, of course, had much to do with the age that was passing away and the age that was being revealed.
Is God still a consuming fire? Is tribulation still part of God's plan? It would seem for all practical purposes that God still consumes our self-righteousness and pride. Moreover, it still seems that through much tribulation the world is slowly entering into the reality of God's kingdom. However, is that the best way to look at things?
Is it true that if we didn't know sin, we wouldn't know God?
I don't think so -- both Adam & Eve knew God apart from sin.
I just wonder what we set ourselves up for when we go into the future with the belief that suffering is necessary. I'll play off Katie too and ask "How do you act when you think that thought?"
I think the opposite is valid as well -- and so, "How do we act when you think that thought?" Example: those who have a belief that "suffering is NOT necessary" can be self-righteously condescending in being flipant with others' predicaments with an attitude of "well IF you really believed ALL God's promises AS I DO, then YOU wouldn't be burdened as you are" -- you know, the sort of mentality that makes you want to puke. [at least that's how I want to act when I have that thought :D ]
Knowing sin may be connected to suffering though, I'm considering...
Well, we have bought into the idea that "sin = literal pain" therefore "no sin = no literal pain" -- but is this assumption biblical? In the first two paragraphs I have some thoughts that touch on this [HERE (http://pantelism.com/DeathIsCovenantal.htm)].
It would seem for all practical purposes that God still consumes our self-righteousness and pride.
What's this "our" about? Pish, you must be crazy - I'm not self righteous, I'm perfect. lol! Back to reality --
Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.."
"Torment" is translated from "basanismos". Strong's has the meaning as:
a testing by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
It sounds to me like human righteousness tested against the righteousness of God. Does any of this apply to today do you think?
Good point Davo. It seems that it is best (to me anyway) not to place either rule ("suffering is necessary" or "suffering is not necessary") on living - living without such expectations. Easy 'nuff said, not sure about done, lol.
Well, we have bought into the idea that "sin = literal pain" therefore "no sin = no literal pain" -- but is this assumption biblical?
I was wondering if "knowing" sin creates suffering. I don't equate pain, and suffering. One can even have pain, without having pain -and suffering imo.
I'm interested in your point though. How do people draw the conclusion that if sin didn't exist there would be no pain?
Amie
And Davo -
Good point about the "increase" of pain rather than it's creation. If that weren't a fact, one might have to see giving birth as a curse ;)
Amie
I was wondering if "knowing" sin creates suffering.I believe it does -- in fact our whole religious mindset is so "sin conscious" it's no wonder so much of the church body is as sick as it is.
At least ancient Israel could go a whole year from one day of atonement to the next basically free of a "sin consciousness" [or though it needed to be a perpetual event], yet so many so called believers can't go 5 minutes without a racked conscience for the next "un-confessed sin" – like the blood of bulls and goats was good for 12 months, but Christ's blood barely lasts 12 seconds, apparently – so much for "joy and peace in believing" [Rom 15:13].
I'm interested in your point though. How do people draw the conclusion that if sin didn't exist there would be no pain?
I would say from the traditional mindset quite simply the is logic this: going to Heaven when you die means "no more sin" [Rom 6:7] and therefore "no more pain" [Rev 21:4].
I believe it does -- in fact our whole religious mindset is so "sin conscious" it's no wonder so much of the church body is as sick as it is.
Would it be safe to assume then, that you think that people can know God without "knowing" sin?
I would say from the traditional mindset quite simply the is logic this: going to Heaven when you die means "no more sin" [Rom 6:7] and therefore "no more pain" [Rev 21:4].
Wow. I used to believe that we wouldn't have pain because we would no longer be in biological/flesh bodies (nowadays I wonder if I would miss some of it). I had never considered sin.
Amie
christyG
06-13-2006, 07:25 PM
Good thread. Great discussion. Scimmed through rather quickly, so forgive me if I repeat or don't make sense (sp?).:o
It might be important to decide how you define sin. Is sin the same for everyone? I think that the Hebrews and writers of the new testament might have been using the term sin to cover a whole range of conditions of the human spirit -- feeling alienated, cut-off, enslaved, etc....
Do you need sin to know God?-----My immediate thought is absolutely no. However, I am crazy enough to believe that babies and small children know God better than we adults claim to.
My view may come from my standpoint that I really have lead a very blessed life. No major catastrophies to speak of. My life for the most part has been effortless and full of joy. I really feel terrible even admitting that out loud. And I'll throw one in there to make all women hate me for sure----my three children were born in 5 hours, 3 hours and 2 hours respectively with little to no pain thanks to the epideral---which is said to slow the labor process. I would really hate to think that despite my most concerted efforts, I will never truly "know" God until I go through some sort of trauma. ------ But then again, (I'm thinking out loud now...) this could just be the way I choose to see my life. Maybe to someone else my years in rural Appalachia would seem quite tramatic. Anyway, I do not think that one must experience true grief to experience true happiness.
If we are happy all the time do we really know what it means to be happy? I don't know. It seems to reach a state of eternal bliss we must reach some sort of detached reality. We must be able to detach ourselves from our experiences in some way to be able to be eternally blissful. I don't know about you but I usually describe people that always have a smile on their face as being "out-there" or "spacey". They are detached in some way from what is actually happening to them. Is this detachment the key to "knowing" God? I don't know.
christy
Would it be safe to assume then, that you think that people can know God without "knowing" sin?
No not really; we all sin, no question about that -- what "religion" has covered up is that our "sins" are no longer held against us in relation[ship] to God. His grace in Christ removed the judgment of the offense [Jn 1:29] -- Jesus bore that at Calvary for all.
I used to believe that we wouldn't have pain because we would no longer be in biological/flesh bodies...
Yes, and that traditional belief is what says that "biological/flesh bodies" ARE pained because of sin etc -- thus being freed from them in death equates to "no more pain" etc.
Now I am inclined to believe that yes indeed, post death is pain free, but NOT because this mortal body was evil.
Barry
06-13-2006, 10:09 PM
No not really; we all sin, no question about that -- what "religion" has covered up is that our "sins" are no longer held against us in relation[ship] to God. His grace in Christ removed the judgment of the offense [Jn 1:29] -- Jesus bore that at Calvary for all.
Yes, and that traditional belief is what says that "biological/flesh bodies" ARE pained because of sin etc -- thus being freed from them in death equates to "no more pain" etc.
Now I am inclined to believe that yes indeed, post death is pain free, but NOT because this mortal body was evil.
Is there any other relationship to base such upon?
Does sin exist "without" (outside) such a relationship?
How can it exist not within but somewhere else (unless one is in the transition of the ages)?
IMHO the status of the "flesh" is finished. IE, passed away. There in no more sin.
"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin (noun) of the world".
Is he still taking it away or was it fulfilled?
JMO
Barry
The way I define "sin" is what separates humanity from God, that no longer exists. If we try to make sin as breaking Old Covenant law (ten commandments) were does that leave us? We are not the C-1 Church so we are not pure and spotless. All I see left is that we love God and one another and if we make that an endeavor in perfection we can only fail. I can only accept others for who they are and myself for who I am. I am not saying that there is not a moral aspect to the Bible, I'm saying it is a guide not something to pound someone over the head with, especially ourselves. Adam only had one thing he couldn't do and he failed, can we do better than Adam if we have ten? Old Covenant Israel has already answered that.
The way I define "sin" is what separates humanity from God, that no longer exists.
Hi All, yes to what Lou says. What I'm saying about "sin" and us is that we do transgress [sin against] others -- that's why I see a place for "confession" between each other [Jas 5:16]. As I have said previously -- the sin "condition" i.e., the offense of sin that was against man, God has removed in Christ.
Lauri
06-14-2006, 08:54 AM
I was wondering does taking away the judgement or the penalty of sin take away the sin? I have heard the argument that if we legalize drugs it will take away the criminal aspect of drugs. People would still use drugs but you wouldn't have the crime associated with drugs. If it was legal you wouldn't have drug cartels smuggling it in and drug dealers selling at such a high prices it causes people to steal to afford to buy it. Doing drugs would still be harmful to the person doing them and probably still cause alot of pain and suffering to themselves and those closest to them but all the other horrific crimes associated with drugs may be eliminated. I don't know if that relates but it seems like God has taken away the criminal aspect of sin so to speak. Peope still do sin but all the religious stuff associated with sin has been eliminated in God's eyes.
As to Amie's original questions Is it true that without suffering, we wouldn't know relief?
Is it true that if we didn't know sin, we wouldn't know God?
I'm not sure. If it wasn't neccessary it seems like God went to a lot of trouble to point out our sin and the futility of being righteous on our own with the TOK and the law. Why would God make that all part of the story? How would the story be different if we would have stayed in the Garden without the TOK?
Lauri
Hi All, yes to what Lou says. What I'm saying about "sin" and us is that we do transgress [sin against] others -- that's why I see a place for "confession" between each other [Jas 5:16]. As I have said previously -- the sin "condition" i.e., the offense of sin that was against man, God has removed in Christ.
Davo I agree, our horizontal relationships affect our vertical relationship.
ozark
06-14-2006, 12:59 PM
I think we all agree that sin has been put away. However, I think we also agree that there are very real consequences to behaving contrary to the kingdom of God, which brings us to the second topic of this thread, the purpose of suffering.
Personally, I believe suffering does have a purpose in the New Covenant age. In the Old Covenant God’s chastisement served to bring them back into the stipulations of their covenant. However, because of the weakness of the flesh, no amount of tribulation could keep Israel on track with the Law. Perhaps suffering in the new covenant serves not to bring us to the Law but instead to Christ.
This is something, IMO, very misunderstood by Christians. Many believe our trials are meant to make us stop doing certain things, etc. On the contrary, our weaknesses are still meant to bring us to find sufficiency in Christ.
Barry is right. The old creation is no more. However, suffering is still present whether it is self-inflicted or for no apparent reason. It drives us to participation in what God has accomplished in His Son.
I know the story of the prodigal son has other applications, but the son’s suffering was self-inflicted. Likewise, he was the one beating himself up not his father. All he could see was an unworthy son. Yet, his suffering served to drive him to the arms of his father who could only see a beloved son.
christyG
06-14-2006, 02:07 PM
So, are you (collective) saying that I (me:)) must suffer to really "see" God?
I do not think as I stated earlier that I have "suffered", but it is also my thought that that is just my perspective of my situation.
:confused:
christy
christyG
06-14-2006, 02:12 PM
I'm not sure. If it wasn't neccessary it seems like God went to a lot of trouble to point out our sin and the futility of being righteous on our own with the TOK and the law. Why would God make that all part of the story? How would the story be different if we would have stayed in the Garden without the TOK?
Did God cause our suffering?
It seems like suffering (to some degree) is a fact. The garden story seems to be an explanation for the already realized fact. Just adding to qualify what I have said about myself --- "suffering" could be seen as anything from stubbing your toe, getting your feelings hurt to something far more severe, in which case of course I have "suffered". But how much does stubbing your toe teach you about God? Which leads me to think that if suffering is necessary to "see" God, than the more you suffer, the more you see. Do you see what I am getting at? I am having trouble seeing suffering as being necessary, while I do see suffering as a fact.
I am of the opinion right now that some can stay "in the garden" so to speak without suffering, and with complete knowledge of God. I am thinking of young children and those who just take life as it comes trusting in something that is greater than themselves to work it all out in the end. Isn't that what we are all working for or am I off?
Barry is right. The old creation is no more. However, suffering is still present whether it is self-inflicted or for no apparent reason. It drives us to participation in what God has accomplished in His Son.
I know the story of the prodigal son has other applications, but the son’s suffering was self-inflicted. Likewise, he was the one beating himself up not his father. All he could see was an unworthy son. Yet, his suffering served to drive him to the arms of his father who could only see a beloved son.
Amen Doug, and even in this there was a paining or suffering and YET a hope in the father. As I quote in my article "How Sin Works":
...the great Scottish theologian William Barclay once said: "No man lives to himself. When a man sins he sets in motion a stream of consequences which has no end."
In other words -- when we wrong, "others" are invarably affected -- hence James' injunction to "confess your trespasses one to another" -- WE are not God, WE do need to practice the forgiveness He has merrited us in Christ to others -- why? because being human we can and do offend others. Fortunately the "great offense" of "the sin" HAS been "taken away by the sacrifice of Himself".
So, are you (collective) saying that I (me:)) must suffer to really "see" God?
No way Christy -- yet if ever such was to occur, even in it you would see God, either then or in reflection.
ozark
06-14-2006, 08:12 PM
Christy,
Davo is right. God shows His love in wonderfully diverse ways. We see Him in the midst of suffering. We see Him in the midst of blessing.
Suffering is definately a fact of life, though I don't feel it necessary to know blessings.
Davo is right. God shows His love in wonderfully diverse ways. We see Him in the midst of suffering. We see Him in the midst of blessing.
I know a lot of folks who have expressed that they feel a struggle in feeling present with God, because they believe that results in feelings of euphoria, happiness, and calm. They struggle with feelings of separateness.
When I was growing up, I suffered a great deal. I've known other folks who suffered the same things, and some who suffered even more. Before ever cracking a bible, we have in common feeling God's presence especially during our suffering. It really was, for lack of a word, stabilizing - so I guess the other folks are accurate to a point.
My thoughts, for what they're worth, are that God is not the calm, not the happiness, and euphoria anymore than He is the pain and suffering. He is connection itself. It's how He works in my life anyway.
Amie
My thoughts, for what they're worth, are that God is not the calm, not the happiness, and euphoria anymore than He is the pain and suffering. He is connection itself. It's how He works in my life anyway.
Yep I certainly wouldn't argue with that. For me it is being "content" irrespective of where I might be on the scale of euphoria or despair, in other words being "OK" where-ever I might be at, and knowing God is OK with me.
backtothefuture
06-19-2006, 08:05 PM
Maybe someone can help me on this thought. I am going to start working with a woman who does prayer for inner healing. I told her that my last young pastor said my depression was because of sin in my life and she said that is probably right. Only not my sin, the sins of others and how it had affected me. Is that possible to have someone Else's sin, hurt you?(Me).
For me, Suffering has gone hand in hand with my walk with God. Because of some of the choices I made, I am sure I brought some sin upon myself. And yet if God allows everything, I don't think I can blame him as much as I use to for the condition of my life. Do you have to know suffering to know God? Boy, I don't know the answer to that one:uhh: For me yes, for others, can't say.
Nancy:eek:
Well Nancy, just my thoughts, but we can all "suffer" consequences to certain choices we make, but to label it all as "sin" is IMO going way too far.
Certainly depression "can" be biological/physiological and lead to obviously feeling down. Now it is only natural that if we're feelling down that that is where our head will be -- in other words our thinking gets down in the basement and so helps keep the rest of our selves down there as well. It's a tuff one.
We don't always have that much control over "what" we think about, BUT we do have some say over "how it is" we think about those things. IF you can "become aware" of where your head is at in one of those down moments you are in a place where you can practice to choose to try and refocus your thinking -- easy to say but harder to do, BUT possible.
It then comes down to exploring what works for you in helping you to reframe your particular thoughts etc.
Well Nancy, just my thoughts, but we can all "suffer" consequences to certain choices we make, but to label it all as "sin" is IMO going way too far.
Certainly depression "can" be biological/physiological and lead to obviously feeling down. Now it is only natural that if we're feelling down that that is where our head will be -- in other words our thinking gets down in the basement and so helps keep the rest of our selves down there as well. It's a tuff one.
We don't always have that much control over "what" we think about, BUT we do have some say over "how it is" we think about those things. IF you can "become aware" of where your head is at in one of those down moments you are in a place where you can practice to choose to try and refocus your thinking -- easy to say but harder to do, BUT possible.
It then comes down to exploring what works for you in helping you to reframe your particular thoughts etc.
I agree with Davo. It isn't about karma imo, it's about consequence - then there's just life which plain stinks at times.
Amie
backtothefuture
06-20-2006, 05:54 PM
I guess what I sometimes struggle with still is the mentality that if its good its from God, if its not, its sin. There are so many things in my life that I have prayed for, waited on God for, really thought they were the right direction to go and things went way the wrong way. To me that isn't necessarily sin. Just the stinky part of life.
A lot of Christians from the circle I came out of, do equate suffering with sin. In my case it took leaving the church and sitting before God for almost 2 years to figure out that was a lie, in my case anyway. I didn't choose to have Fibromyalgia and suffer daily. I didn't choose to have mis-carriages or gall bladder and a million other surgeries. So a lot of my physical suffering anyway, I don't look at as sin. But some do.
I also believe that what counselors and doctors and pastors had labeled as depression was actually grief. I will believe that forever. No one could figure that out but me, but it took lots of suffering to get to that point. I have been sitting before God, lamenting, in grief. And I also for some reason know that that season is ending. I can't tell you why, but I know it. Just like I knew it was grief.
A year ago I sat in bagel church and re-wrote the 23rd Psalm in the order I felt those verses applied to my life. I just happened to open my bible yesterday and the paper came floating out that I had been writing the psalm on. In my version, I end with (He restores my soul.) That is really the third verse in the Psalm. But the last for me. And I believe that is happening to me now.
I personally would like to think there is no such thing anymore known as Sin. Choices maybe, but not sin.
The other question, do you have to suffer to know God? Well, I met God as a 10 year old little girl in Vacation Bible school. Way before I had begun my journey of suffering. Suffering can bring you to a place of walking closer with God I think. But also times of walking away. I have done both. But am happy to be where I am now.
Having my soul restored:biggrinbounce:
Nancy
Paige
06-20-2006, 06:06 PM
Amen Sis! :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:
Paige
I also believe that what counselors and doctors and pastors had labeled as depression was actually grief. I will believe that forever.
You could well be right Nancy. Certainly though IF you get "stuck" in grief it will no doubt lead to bouts of depressive-ness. Either way, it sounds like you know you are coming out of a long hard winter, and all I can say is "more power to ya" :clap2:
Nancy,
17 years ago, my pregnant wife had cancer. She had surgery, but radiation or chemo would have killed the baby. So would a diagnostic test. We went 12 months not knowing if the surgery was successful or how the cancer was progressing. She asked the elders to pray for her based on I Tim. 2:15. They refused, made bogus insinuations about sin, and actually quit praying for her completely.
We spent a year crying alone. They made our suffering worse. In the end, we got the blessing, they did not.
JL
She asked the elders to pray for her based on I Tim. 2:15. They refused, made bogus insinuations about sin, and actually quit praying for her completely.
We spent a year crying alone. They made our suffering worse.
hmmm, the blood boils :mad: -- still, you came through it :) .
Yes I'm afraid it is IMO the hypocrisy of religion -- if you are a "regular" church-goer your plight is due to "some sin"; BUT if you are in "leadership" vaallaa it's an attack of "the enemy". :ugly:
backtothefuture
06-21-2006, 09:29 AM
JL
I am so sorry what happened to you and your wife. I am glad in the end you got the blessings. I was wondering did that experience make you want to quit church?
Though God is in the process of restoring my soul:clap2: I just can't make the jump back into church or organized religion.
Blessings
Nancy
Nancy,
The Bible says church is where we should be. So inspite of everything, we go. But after all these years, I'd still rather not. I'm not sure I can honestly say that I've ever looked forward to going to church since that time. It would be so easy to just say to hell with them all.
JL
Barry
06-21-2006, 12:06 PM
Nancy,
The Bible says church is where we should be. So inspite of everything, we go. But after all these years, I'd still rather not. I'm not sure I can honestly say that I've ever looked forward to going to church since that time. It would be so easy to just say to hell with them all.
JL
I have chosen to take the easier road and love from a distance. Each makes their choices.
Barry
backtothefuture
06-21-2006, 12:06 PM
JL
But does the Bible say that church is in a building. (specifically a church?) I have found bagel church and lots of other places that are my gathering together with others who believe.
I am to cynical to go back in. I couldn't believe a lie anymore. I give you credit for at least making the effort. To hard for me to do. At this stage anyway.
Nancy
Nancy,
They say insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result. Well then, cynicism is doing the same thing over again and expecting the same result. The truly cynical go to church to prove that nothing will be different.
But I seem to be too cynical to be allowed to stay.
Barry,
I hope your way is easier. So far, my way has proven impossible. Like I said, I'm stubborn.
JL
Barry
06-21-2006, 10:09 PM
Nancy,
They say insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result. Well then, cynicism is doing the same thing over again and expecting the same result. The truly cynical go to church to prove that nothing will be different.
But I seem to be too cynical to be allowed to stay.
Barry,
I hope your way is easier. So far, my way has proven impossible. Like I said, I'm stubborn.
JL
LOL (insanity, cynicism)! Never heard it expressed quite that way.
This is JMO JL. So take it with a grain of salt (but from an X C of C preacher and missionary, who has also attended other churches). Church is a great place to take 3 or 4 steps forward from knowing nothing about anything about life and God.
Take that 5th step and you are a visionary.
Take any steps further and you are screwed! And your desire to go further will simply raise the height of the platform from which the noose is attached.
Until one finds "life after church" (which then opens up a different kind of church than that which tries to duplicate first century Christianity).
Now there are exceptions. I was not one. Each one of "us" folks must see their own way and make their own choices in their own time.
Our struggles and "stubbornness" is good. For whatever choices we make, it is instrumental in our learning.
JMO (of course)
Barry
Nancy,
The Bible says church is where we should be. So inspite of everything, we go. But after all these years, I'd still rather not. I'm not sure I can honestly say that I've ever looked forward to going to church since that time. It would be so easy to just say to hell with them all.
JL
Hi JL, Tami here. Nice to meet you.:D This place in your journey you speak of...I've been there. Of course no one completely understands the other person, but I understand a little cuz these thoughts have run thru my mind too. It was when I actually started to tell ppl at church "the only reason why I'm here is because God wants me to be here, otherwise I really don't like it and don't want to be here" that I had one foot already out the door. I remember telling a Christian friend of mine, who went to the last church I was at, that church feels like a big chain wrapped around my neck. She said, "Tami, if church is bondage for you...then you need to let it go". Was the best advice I'd ever been given. What she said connected with that still small voice inside of me, which I believe was the voice of the Spirit. Been hard and wonderful all at the same time,mostly hard because I don't take the "to hell with them all" approach. I love them dearly, but have felt the sting of judgement upon leaving. But God is so much bigger than all that. And someone mentioned bagels? I can relate. A bagel with a friend, or talking to you wonderful believers...is church for me dear brother. Tami
But does the Bible say that church is in a building. (specifically a church?)
Forgot to mention something here Nancy. We ARE the church dear Nancy. No it's not a building or in a building. Church is a "thing". Jesus is a person who simply breathes His life into us and thru us. When God see's you, He see's Jesus...you are acceptable to him right where you are. No hoops to jump thru...:) like the song says "Just breathe".:)
backtothefuture
06-22-2006, 09:44 PM
Oh I like that. Just breathe. That is what I have been learning to do this year. I have never been happier in my life, in spite of all my grief since leaving organized religion. I think it took more faith to step out, than to stay. For me anyway.
Nancy
I have never been happier in my life, in spite of all my grief since leaving organized religion. I think it took more faith to step out, than to stay. For me anyway.
Nancy
Nancy, Would you believe me if I told you I really do understand? I understand that feeling of complete happiness and total grief. And yes, I didn't realize it at the time but looking back...it sure does take more faith to leave imo. You are not alone sweet Nancy. Tami
Truthseeker
06-28-2006, 07:52 PM
Absolutely! Its much easier to stay; takes more faith to leave and trust in God alone. I don't think we realize til after we go, that we weren't really breathing before. :) --rhonda
Absolutely! Its much easier to stay; takes more faith to leave and trust in God alone. I don't think we realize til after we go, that we weren't really breathing before. :) --rhonda
Wow!! Y'all conversation is absolutely inspirational! Makes me wish I were a song-writer - it is already poetry in my eyes.
Amie
backtothefuture
07-03-2006, 08:37 PM
I wanted to stay
in the same place
where I first believed so long ago
I wanted to stay
though conflicted inside
not knowing how to trust God alone.
But I went, took a leap
Stepped outside into the blue of the sky
looked around, walked with God
and found the real me inside.
And God whispered a song
as we walked right along
said "Nancy, before you tell me what you see"
Just Breathe
Just Breathe
Just Breathe
It takes faith to stay
and much more to go
And at those times its hard to see
but in moments of doubt
maybe the answer we need
is just Breathe
just Breathe
just Breathe.
NL
Nancy,
May I put this on the site, and share it elsewhere?
Amie
backtothefuture
07-04-2006, 11:15 AM
Sure Amie,
I would be honored to have you place it anywhere you want.
The song is for all of us, who have taken a leap of faith towards something new and different.
I sing it myself. If anyone here writes music and would like to put it to song, maybe we can eventually make our own Talk-grace CD and help support this forum so this place can be a healing balm for all of those coming up the path in this direction.
There is so much wonderful poetry written here and placed also on Woman Beyond that I am sure someone here can sing:clap2:
Blessings,
Nancy
Truthseeker
07-05-2006, 10:28 AM
Nancy, that's just beautiful! I'm not much of a singer, but my heart sings to those words! Blessings--rhonda
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