Idolatry

[Amie]

A post that Lou made brought this to my mind because he brought up how some people see themselves as a duplicate of God on earth.

My daughter hurt herself a little over a week ago and had to get some stitches (3). We went yesterday to get them out. The admissions lady asked our religious preference. I was taken aback for a minute (not sure why) and replied "Christian".

On the way home, my son asked why she asked that. I told him that I thought it may be in case a complication arises and someone is need of prayer.

I told him that I think we are Christians, but not religious ones - more spiritual. He agreed and added that it wouldn't matter to him who prayed for him or did his funeral or anything. I asked him whether it would matter to him if a Muslim prayed for him. He said no, that it is the prayer that is important to him.

A while back, I shared my daughter's response to a Jehovah's witness peer who was proclaiming that she (herself/the JW) worshipped a different God. She (my daughter) says she believes in one God and didn't see how anyone could pray to anyone else.

My son seems to believe something similar, judging by his response.

I agree with them. I wouldn't care who prayed over me, I would still see it as prayer to God. Like Amanda, I don't see how it could be otherwise.

Then I think about the commandments "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" and then "Thou shalt not make any graven image". Why would God make these commands if he is the only God?

My thought right now is that at one time it did matter, though it doesn't matter anymore. I'm just not sure why it did matter.

Anyone have any thoughts on that?

Thanks,

Amie

[davo]

Then I think about the commandments "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" and then "Thou shalt not make any graven image". Why would God make these commands if he is the only God?
Probably because all else were demigods -- inventions of man's doing, that would lead to fruitless wanderings from the divine path He had elected Israel to.

[Amie]

Good point Davo. Would you say that the issue then was not about everyone agreeing on the same target of prayer and worship, but about Israel understanding the difference for a specific purpose? IOW, it was about their knowing Him rather than about understanding where their prayers go?

Amie

[davo]

Yeah I guess in "knowing" Him this would have the effect of guiding their prayers accordingly.

[Amie]

Yeah I guess in "knowing" Him this would have the effect of guiding their prayers accordingly.

Do you think that God heard the prayers of the Gentiles to their gods? Do you think God hears the prayers of folks of other religions today?

Amie

[davo]

Do you think God hears the prayers of folks of other religions today?
Amie, I would say that any encounter someone has with God, whether they realise it or not, happens/ed ONLY because of Jesus Christ. And look at this:

Act 10:1-4; 35 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!” And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?” So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.
But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

Not bad for a Gentile. Reverence is not reliant on "correct doctrine" . Certainly "belief" helps US, but God is not beholden to it.

Mic 6:8 He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to [B]do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?

[christyG]

Amie asked:
Then I think about the commandments "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" and then "Thou shalt not make any graven image". Why would God make these commands if he is the only God?
and:

Do you think that God heard the prayers of the Gentiles to their gods? Do you think God hears the prayers of folks of other religions today?

My thoughts right now, just to chime in for what it is worth...I believe the "Commandments" are certainly what Moses and the Israelite community believed to be divine revelation from their one true God and thus it was their opinion that these were important for the specific purpose of Israel. It has always been my thoughts that these were references to any form of idolotry. There still exist many gods and we often put them before "God", especially in the West. TV, money, fame, frivolity...basically anything that will take the focus off of ourselves and those closest to us. By shifting our focus, we can continue to live in a fantasy world and not have to face the realities of our life and thus our life with God, thus we do not face God....we put other gods before him.
Having said that...I do believe that God is at the center of all that is "real", and thus can be experienced in all that is "real". I strongly believe that we can experience God in ourselves when we begin to look deep within ourselves and explore who we really are; also in other people, the smile of another human, laughter, tears, etc...; God can be experienced in nature, sunshine, a walk in the woods, the miracle of birth, etc....We can call these experieces for what they are, we can say we feel calm and peaceful when we sit by a trickling stream, but that doesn't make the connection any less a connection with the divine. IOW...I strongly believe that we do not have to name our connection with God or categorize it in ANY way to make it a true connection with God. IOW we can say we are praying to Buddah, but if we are making a connection with that which is real, then it doesn't matter what we name it it is still a connection with God (IMHO), it was for Israel, it is now and will be forever.

Christy

[Amie]

Christy,

Do you believe, as Israel did, that the ten commandments came from God? If so, why do you think idolatry mattered then and not now?

Amie

[christyG]

Amie,

Christy,

Do you believe, as Israel did, that the ten commandments came from God? If so, why do you think idolatry mattered then and not now?


IMHO, right now the way I see it the Ten Commandments came from Moses, who had been "enlightened" by God. (Not sure if enlightened is the best word, but the best one I could come up with.) I see the commandments as being very specific for Israel, thus idolatry being specific for Israel, as were all the other laws and blessings and curses. BUT, as with all enlightened and insightful works, the "Big Ten" seems to have truth to impart to us. Do not kill, steal, lie, covet, etc.... are all things that should be practiced.....not for a heavenly reward as evangelicals would have you believe, but for your own enlightenment.
If what you mean by "mattered"
do you think idolatry mattered then and not now? is costing them their heavenly reward, then no, I do not think idolatry mattered then OR now. But if by "mattered" you mean costing them relationship with God, then I would have to say, yes, it did matter then AND it still matters now.
Right now, that's what I think Jesus came to preach. It seems that his attitude was something like....You all think you are so great because you do not kill, or steal, or covet, but that's not all God wants from you. God wants a relationship with you. Not killing or stealing or coveting is a good start, but you can't stop there. You must work each and every day to strengthen your relationship and to grow closer to the divine.....I think Jesus was living proof of what is possible for each and every one of us.

Amie,
What do you see as the cost for the Israelites for their idolatry? And how are they different for any costs we may have now, or maybe we have no costs now?

Christy

[Amie]

Christy,

Thank you so very much for sharing your thoughts! They are so very rich!.. and the questions thought-inspiring.

Off-hand I would think that the cost was loss of national ownership (meaning inability to be "Kings and Priests" to humanity) and probably a sense of isolation from God.

I would say that going after today's "idols" would also handicap our ability to "be God" (in other words, "loving") to others. That would still result in a sense of isolation.

Those are some big questions and I intend to give them more thought. What are your thoughts about them?

Amie

[christyG]

Thank you, Amie. I would have to agree with your thoughts about the costs to Israel and the costs today. I would add that I find it interesting that the costs spelled out in the "curses" and lived out by the Israelites through their history were depitctions of what we feel like spiritually when we loose our connection with the divine. Please understand that I do NOT feel that there is anything we can do as humans to cut ourselves off from God. I do not think there ever was. The Israelites may have had to leave Israel, but they were not severed spiritually from God. The great mystics and spiritualists of their time understood this....I'm thinking of Daniel, and the Three (Hananiah, Asariah, Mischiel, sp?), who kept their connection with the divine. Just as many today are beginning to realize that no matter what we have done, or how isolated we feel or how enslaved to our own idols (or religions) we become, that we can access God and the divine at any time.

I guess that I am leaning more and more away from an "event theology" (my own term, please do not take offense, I mean it lightly), where we can point to any one event and say that it is the turning point for humanity and that God deals differently before and after that event. I am leaning more towards the thought that God deals the same now as he has for centuries and that we as humans are basically the same throughout the ages. We may be growing more as a collective whole, but many others have come before us that have been much more enlightened.

Much more to say here, but I think I should leave it at that for now.:)

Christy

[Amie]

Israelites through their history were depitctions of what we feel like spiritually when we loose our connection with the divine.

I agree. I prefer not communicating the narrative alone, but encouraging connection with the people in the story. Israel was not just a nation, they were real individuals with real lives. Emotion speaks to the heart and tells a story that we all recognize.

I started another thread here: http://talk-grace.com/showthread.php?p=3480#post3480, I hope you'll come over and offer some more of your insights :).

Amie