Stuck in a Well

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
I have been reading over and over the passage in John 4 about the woman at the well this week. I don't know what has(excuse the pun) drawn me here.

In the first verse the Pharisees were talking about Jesus baptizing more disciples than John. Did they have a problem with that? In did they hold John in a higher position than Jesus? Jesus departs, and goes to Galilee.
He goes through Samaria and ends up at Jacobs well. I was wondering if there was any significance that it was called Jacobs well.
And is the 6th hour anything other than the time of day.
I think its great that Jesus being a Jew talks to the Samarian woman, because I guess this was very unusual? Correct?

What I saw this time different from my Evangelical teaching was the part where Jesus answers the woman and tells her she has had five husbands and the one she now has is not her husband. I was taught to look at this as this woman was a really bad person. 5 husbands. But what if she had only been married to those men because of the law. Maybe her first husband died and she then married a brother and so forth. And couldn't the one now, she maybe be betrothed to. In those days, if you were betrothed, didn't they sometimes live together?

When Jesus goes on to tell her that the hour is coming when you will neither worship on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem,will you worship the father. You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. I am kind of confused here. Is Jesus basically saying that Salvation is because of him, because he is a Jew? Not necessarily that Salvation was just for the Jews? That's I think how I use to read this passage.

I love verse 24. God is Spirit. and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth. Do you think that is happening today? Is Jesus being worshiped in truth?

Anyway, as usual, I don't know how to say what I am trying to say. Amie!!!!You are usually pretty good at helping me figure this out. Is there something in this passage that I can tuck into my heart as I go forward in my fulfillment journey. Or is it just a nice story to read about in the Bible.
Thanks,
Nancy:uhh:

[Amie]

Nancy,

I'll do my best, though I would very much like to learn from the thoughts of the others around here.

My thought is that John the Baptist was famed for attracting great crowds, and here Jesus was becoming famous for attracting even greater ones.


Then when the Lord knew that the Pharisees heard that Jesus made more disciples and baptized more than John

The author corrects this misconception:


(though truly Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples)


He goes through Samaria and ends up at Jacobs well. I was wondering if there was any significance that it was called Jacobs well.

And is the 6th hour anything other than the time of day.

Probably. In Genesis 29, Jacob arrives at a well. There he runs into some folks who he soon finds out know his uncle, Laban. They have some small talk, then Jacob says:


Behold, the day is still high; it is not time to gather the livestock. Water the sheep and go feed them.

So it was not time to gather all of the livestock because the day was high (Jesus was there at a later time). The men answer:


We are not able until all the flocks are gathered and they roll the stone from the mouth of the well; then we water the sheep.

Rachel (Laban's daughter) then arrives with Laban's sheep, feeding them.
When Jacob saw her, he rolled the stone away from the well and watered the sheep - before the flocks had been gathered.

Much of this language could be very symbolic. How many times does Jesus call people "sheep" after all? Also, Jesus continues in John 4 and contrasts the water from the well, and the water which he gives people to drink.


Jesus answered and said to her, Everyone drinking of this water will thirst again;but whoever may drink of the water which I will give him will not thirst, never! But the water which I will give to him will become a fountain of water in him, springing up into everlasting life.


I think its great that Jesus being a Jew talks to the Samarian woman, because I guess this was very unusual? Correct?

Yes. According to the Jewish leadership of that day she would have two strikes against her. #1 She was a woman:


And on this, His disciples came and marveled that He was speaking with a woman. However, no one said, What do You seek? Or, Why do You speak with her?

..and #2, she isn't Jewish.


Then the Samaritan woman said to Him, How do You, being a Jew, ask to drink from me, I being a Samaritan woman? For Jews do not deal with Samaritans.


You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is of the Jews.

Salvation is "of" (through) the Jews. She knew it was "of" the Jews, she knew that Messiah would come out of them (John 4:25). He goes on to tell her:


But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeks such, the ones worshiping Him.

Keep in mind that just before saying the above, Jesus already said:


Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me that an hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

She would be worshipping the Father. Remember, John 4:23 just said "for the Father also seeks such. He further describes "such":


God is a spirit, and the ones worshiping Him must worship in spirit and truth.

As I see it right now, "such" is "true worshippers" and/or "those worshipping Him in spirit and truth". And he just told this woman that she would worship him.

See, thereagain we get into what "sheep", "other sheep", and "livestock" symbolize, then it is easier to recognize how this Samaritan woman would become a "true worshipper".

Jesus declares to her that he was the Messiah (that declaration and the good news that she would be a true worshipper comes after she asks for the "living water"), and she went to tell the men in her city. They then sat with Jesus. They told her later that they believed no longer just because of what she said, but because of what Jesus said.

So a woman went to testify for Messiah in that city (a non-Jewish city), and they believed her enough to check it out. It kind of reminds me of the church's work on behalf of the Gentiles.

So how did this woman come to know who she worshipped? How will she have begun to worship in spirit and truth? I still have a lot to learn and would LOVE to hear feedback on this entire subject (GREAT topic!).

However it happened, Jesus validates that that woman had actually had five husbands. They really counted as husbands, somehow. She only told him that she had no husband - not all of those details. He knew that the sixth person that she was with, wasn't her husband. I'm not sure what that means other than he knew those very intimate details. Perhaps they hadn't consumated their marriage, perhaps he was married to another woman, maybe she didn't love him, who knows for sure? Jesus did.

Amie

[Barry]

Nancy said:
"I was taught to look at this as this woman was a really bad person. 5 husbands."

In John, the greater issue is not so much that she is "bad" as such but that she had points against her (by Moses).
As a Samaritan she was not thrilled with the "Jews" and as such was questioning the Jewish validity of "religion". By doing this however her own approach was one of be "right" through Moses.
IMO Jesus is saying that she didn't have much to stand on.

The same thing today with many religious people. They will find faults with others while living in a way that betrays themselves.
Jesus did a similar thing with the Pharisees and divorce (but Jesus used a very "gentle" approach with the Samaritan woman).
If trying to be more right than our neighbor is our game then eventually it just becomes a "game".

Notice that the "spirit and truth" is not spirit and "correctness of law". For the law came by Moses but "truth" and grace came by Jesus Christ.
JMO Barry

[ozark]

Nancy,

Just a couple of comments. Yes, this was unusual for Jesus to talk to a Samaritan woman. Jewish men would not usually talk to women in public. Look at verse 27 how the disciples marveled that he was talking to a woman.

The Samaritans were constantly at odds with their neighbors to the South in Judea and to the North in Galilee. The Samaritans were descendants of the ten tribes that were carried off by the Assyrians. They had intermarried with pagans and thus were considered "half-breeds."

Probably the main dispute the Jews had with the Samaritans was over who had the true temple of God. The Jews had their temple in Jerusalem. The Samaritans had their own temple as well. They traced its origin supposedly way back to the mountain Adam sacrificed upon. Really, the conflict was over such self-righteousness matters as who God lived with, the Samaritans or the Jews. Apparently this conflict was so intense that the Jews would not not normally travel into Samaria.

Jesus says an hour was coming and was already present where this dispute would be irrelevant. As you know, under the new covenant God dwells not in buildings but in His people. No more dispute over where God lives. (Although, we still carry on the same dispute in different forms, LOL! Jesus came to end the conflict! If only we could see this.)

Worship in the truth could relate to the fact that the substance or the true temple of God was replacing the shadow which was the temple in Jerusalem. The shadow verses its fulfillment in Christ is a constant theme throughout the book of John.

[Paige]

I wonder if worshipping in spirit and truth is in any way connected to Jesus' declaration of Himself, that He is the way, the truth, and the life?

Perhaps Jesus was modeling worship through His own relationship with the Father? What I see is there was a mindset that worship happened at a "temple", or on a "mountain" etc... Jesus lived a life continually in tune with God, thus worshipping 24/7.

Paige

[ozark]

Paige,

I think this has a lot to do with it. Paul uses this same phrase in Phil 3. He seems to be saying that this is a covenantal matter also. There was a difference between worship in the righteousness of God and the righteousness of man. I am trying to put an article together on this very subject. Should be ready in a couple of weeks.

What I am pondering is what the the nature of worship is in a fully consummated New Covenant. In the old covenant worship was closely tied to sacrifice even more than singing hymns, etc. In fact, some scholars say that in the first century worship was sacrifice.

Paul said in Romans 12 that the first century believers were to give themselves as a living offering to God. I think this is closely tied to the idea of the gift offering. The gift offering was consumed by fire. Such an offering was given at Mount Carmel when fire came from heaven and consumed the offering. Hebrews tells us that God is a consuming fire.

Were the first century believers to give themselves as a gift offering to God. I think we can say that their lives were being consumed by God. Look at Paul in Phil. 3. He suffered the loss of all his own righteousness.

The question is is worship still the act of giving ourselves as an offering to God? Or is a merely a celebration of the fact that the offering has been accepted especially since the OC world has been consumed? I think worship still is the act of giving ourselves to God, but does this same purpose stand?

"Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe.

2Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! 3For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead."

[Paige]

The question is is worship still the act of giving ourselves as an offering to God? Or is a merely a celebration of the fact that the offering has been accepted especially since the OC world has been consumed? I think worship still is the act of giving ourselves to God, but does this same purpose stand?


Good question. The way I'm seeing it now, in redeeming Israel, God bought us all. I think a contrast is still very evident today. We can see some operating under a premise that their life and freedom was given by God and they are willingly giving themselves to Him, and those who consider themselves "self-made" or "self-owned". The two attitudes I see contrasted there are "how can I serve you?", or "whats in it for me?" What I see in most major religions is not "how can we serve you?", but rather "what kind of power can we gain here?" I also think this is seen across the board in politics, and all other areas of life. Hope I haven't gotten off track with the topic.

Paige

[backtothefuture]

Thank you everyone for your input. I have just sat in awe this day, re-reading all your comments. One passage and look what is in there. I wish I could do this with every verse and chapter. Things are so much more clear to me now as you explain.

Amie, I think that Jacobs well, is meant to mean something. The Sheep were watered even though the Entire flock had not been brought together yet. Shows that God was working even though didn't look like everything was yet in place.

Also, in this passage, I don't believe Jesus told the woman to go and sin no more. He just told her about her life and she was changed by that and maybe by his gentleness with her. He never said she couldn't drink the water because of who she was or what she was doing.

I would like to know more about worshiping in Truth. I play my guitar and there were times it was a sacrifice for me to sing, but more these days its become just something I really like to do between me and God.

Thanks all for your input.:biggrinbounce:
Nancy

[Barry]

Also, in this passage, I don't believe Jesus told the woman to go and sin no more. He just told her about her life and she was changed by that and maybe by his gentleness with her. He never said she couldn't drink the water because of who she was or what she was doing.

Nancy

Good points Nancy.
Even the woman who was told to "go and sin no more" (8:11) was not told anything more than the man in 5:14. [I.E. What was his "sin"? (there does not seem to be any "sin" referenced in this text)]
IMHO "go and sin no more" is John's "go in peace, your sins are forgiven you" of the synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke).
JMO
Barry