testify :)

[Amie]

I have had good and bad experiences in churchs growing up. Overall, church is not a place that I feel comfortable bringing my children to.

Recently I was invited to speak in Baytown, Texas at a conference. It was in a building now called a "fellowship" and was once called "church". The people were warm and accepting. I thought (and even said) that if there were a place like that near me, I would go there. I would still venture to call it church for all practical purposes. I would go to a church like that.

Perhaps I'll meet enough folks to put something like that together. Maybe I won't and I'll be fellowshipping at the grocery store and online like I am now, I don't know. Either way, I'm happy.

I'm really thankful for places like Sjolander Fellowship in Baytown too. I can bring my children and show them that there are groups of people (Christians even) who gather together with love, and focus on brotherhood/sisterhood.

Any other good experiences in church out there? Do you see church as something that should become a thing of the past, or that may be transformed?

Amie

[Infinite Grace]

Amie,
I think that the first reality we have to face is the one that Sjolander did. If we gather, we are a KOINONIA (i.e., fellowship) rather than an EKKLESIA (i.e., church).

EKKLESIA means "the called out." This was a uniquely first century occurence of those being "called out" from the old covenant. This is what Paul meant when he said that "all things work together for good for those who are 'the called' according to his purpose." We are no longer called out from the OC.

KOINONIA, on the other hand, signifies a close communal relationship: pretty much what we have here. We share in each other's lives, we pray for one another, etc. These are fellowship, or communion activities. In the first century, KOINONIA signified breaking bread together. A meal. Although what we have here is KOINONIA, I believe we need something more. We need a meal.

I attend "church" at a United Church of Christ. Fortunately I found a fellowship that is not too political, although my pastor and I do agree on politics. He just doesn't preach it from the pulpit. My family fellowships with them. We still take "the Supper" the man-made way (little piece of bread and a sip of juice). I prefer the biblical way: a meal. Replete with beverages appropriate for fellowship: beer, wine, brandy, rum, whatever. Fattening foods, greasy, filled with calories - eating whatsoever our hearts desire. FEASTING. KOINONIA.

You see, many hold on to the "old ways" in the sense that we need EKKLESIA. We don't. There is no OC to be called out from. Just like there is no "dead works" to repent from (although some folks are setting up their own laws, or resurrecting God's ministration of death in order to justify themselves). We are now called to KOINONIA, a meal, a feast, with our friends, neighbors, family, even our enemies. Think of how many wonderful things have happened in your life surrounding a meal. Many of us asked our spouses to marry us while eating together on a date (I didn't, but we had finished eating and returned to her house where I proposed - that was because I hadn't planned on asking her to marry me quite yet). Meals are an important FAMILY event because it builds KOINONIA.

These ideas of mine are why it is essential that in the near future, we all get together somehow, somewhere. Transmill 2006 I suppose would be a good place, but I don't have the money, truth be told. Virgil will be planning his next conference too. These are opportunities for us to meet yearly to "break bread" in a feast together. When we do get together, nobody better be on a diet, and we need to have a taxi handy. Much food, drink, and perhaps some cigars for those who imbibe. Laughter, joy, and love will follow. That's KOINONIA. And we need it.

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
I thought it was interesting the explanation on being called out. I left church for good, I think 15 months ago. The pastor of the church said my depression was because of sin in my life. We had just finished going through the 27 deaths in our family. I knew I was in grief. I also knew I was to leave the church to find my healing. It has been some walk this last year. I now attend what I call "bagel church". I have gone to this bagel place everyday accept Christmas for 15 months. What has happened, is God gave me an oasis in the Desert. I Take my bible everyday and decided, ok, lets start again. The interesting thing that has happened is, people got word that I was there and started showing up. It was bizarre. Even my old Sunday school teacher who is 80 came by one day and brought me 2 books on grief. I met friends and it has filled a void in my life. It a community for me. Something I wish so often that church would be. There is a long table that sits about 12 people and every weekend we are talking about something. Sometimes spiritual, sometimes what is going on in the world and sometimes what is going on with one another. Some of us even exchanged Christmas presents. If you would have told me a year ago, Bagel Church would end up being the best church ever I would never have believed it! I get calls now from people sitting over at the bagel church. They call me from their cell phone when they don't see my car and I am running a little late. Like today,cause I am writing this post!
I so use to wish in my heart, that "church like most of us knew it" would be this community to me. Now my husband who has been out of organized church for 9 years, comes with me on the weekend. He even changes his schedule around so he can make it. Last week we were sitting before anyone came and he said, tell me what the preterits think. I about fell right off my chair!!
I need to see God in these things. I somehow want to get to that place where even though organized church failed me, God has not. Need to see the face of God, (right Ed).
Blessings
Nancy:D

[Paige]

That was a wonderful testimony, Nancy. I am thrilled that you have found fellowship and community. You have also been given such a wonderful 'open door' opportunity in regard to the question your husband asked. Being outside the traditional norm of "church" you can explore in ways that are truly free.

Paige

[Infinite Grace]

Nancy, what you have found is KOINONIA. Ain't it great?

And you know what? You have already found the face of God in everyone of those people, including your wonderful husband. Next time you meet with them, just sit back and look deeply into their eyes. If they look back and ask "what?" Just say, "I'm looking at our Father's reflection in your face. I'm seeing the Face of God." Believe me, they will see His face in you as well.

We are so glad you are here Nancy, and we hope and pray that God will use us in some way to assist in your total healing.

[backtothefuture]

Ed,
I have found koinonia And it is great. Everyday, I go to bagel church and I feel so lucky. Plus I have lost 40 pounds sitting there for a year, eating bagels!!
Also, when you mentioned eyes. That is something that means a lot to me. A year ago, my husband wanted to go to Phoenix on a vacation. We live in the Chicago area. I was in so much pain, I just couldn't go, He chose to go without me. I was devastated at first. But then over in bagel church God revealed to me that it was abandonment that was at the root of a lot of my pain. My husband has told me everyday, twice a day for 27 years that he loves me. It was like now or never. I was to trust for the first time that what he was saying was true. Anyway, I looked into his eyes one night. I saw how blue they were, with these yellow crests around them. I thought to myself, when was the last time I really looked at him. Looked at his eyes. And really believed that he loved me. I knew at that moment, God had shown me true grace. From that point on, our marriage has gone through tremendous healing. Nothing that my husband did, but what God was doing through breaking me. All anger, resentment for all he had put me through, was gone. Its all gone.
I can't explain it. I extended grace to Randy and we are on the road to recovery. Now, the big question is can I accept Gods grace for me. Hopefully that is where I am headed.
Nancy

[Infinite Grace]

You see my sister, I knew that you have seen God's face. You saw it in the Gift that he gave you - your husband. What joy!

It makes me want to SHOUT, lift my hands up and SHOUT...

[christyG]

Nancy,

Kudos again on your bravery. You are so cool :)

Amie asked about church fading to the past or transforming.....I think I still feel that there is hope for transforming church.

I belong to a fairly open church. Some of you may remember me talking about my church before ( at other sites) My pastor is a "closet preterist". Oddly enough you may have seen him on CNN if you watched any of the CNN coverage of the Sago mine disaster---that was my home town. He was not the pastor of the Sago church, but was there with the families throughout the ordeal.

Anyway, I use to strongly believe that I could quietly make a difference in our church by continuing to go to Bible Study and add my two-cents when I could, without offending. But recently I have begun to feel that some of that time is wasted. Not in the since that I cannot make a difference by sharing my views, but in the since that maybe I could be making better use of my time---reaching out, instead of in ------ volunteering at a shelter for instance (although we have none close).

I am a study-holic, a bookworm. And maybe it is all the Jewish stuff I have been reading lately, but I really feel that I need to get out of the books a little more and begin to reach out to others. Others that I would not necessarily have cause to be in contact with in most circumstances. Others that I will not find in a church pew.

Unfortunately, most churches do not "reach out" very well, even my own. We spend all of our time "reaching in", tweaking the sunday school program, electing church officials, etc.... that we forget that there is a giant world out there full of souls that have been beaten and left to die along the side of the road waiting for someone to patch them up and carry them to safety. I see many churches just walking by, noticing, but not stopping. On their way to "more important things".

However, I can't (even if I try) be a total pesimist (sp). So, maybe this too is something that can be transformed about church. It seems to be a natural outgrowth from enlightenment after all. So, as for now, I will continue to go to church and do what I can.:)

Christy

[backtothefuture]

I think the biggest lesson I have learned this year, is church is not a building. Its almost a state of mind. We are the church. I was thinking last night. One of a very well known mega churches in my area spent 70 million dollars adding a water fall to their new building. That has bothered me so much. Why can't we just meet in"bagel churches" Target food court churches, Mall churches and take that money we can to feed the hungry, help the poor, those kinds of things. We have rarely tithed the years we have been in churches. I refused to pay for bell towers and chandeliers. We had a well known church actually send out a list of the furniture they wanted. 1000 dollar chairs. instead, we try to send a box to the Lakota Indian babies once a year. This year I am a little behind. I go to the resale shops and buy up all the snow suits. Their babies have a high death rate because of the cold temperates. Now we have adopted a soldier or two. We have not a lot of money, but somehow we manage to put something together. We also for 10 years have put Christmas under a single moms tree with 5 kids.What good is the church building if there isn't some kind of fruit coming out of it to move people.
Any way there is still much for me to learn. But I am not going back in unless God tells me to. With healing, comes freedom. All you guys make me think and take a deep breath and go on.
Nancy

[Amie]

Christy,

It is hearing testimonies like these that gives me hope for the church as well.

All,

I recently found out about a sort of "bagel church" in my area. It's called The Church Under the Bridge (http://www.churchunderthebridge.org/) and they literally have 'service' under an overpass. It looks like they offer food to people and have celebritory (sp) singing, dancing, and music. I'm thinking about going down to see what it's about.

Amie

[Dano]

Amie,

That is really neat... Under the bridge. That’s my kind of thing, really. I’d like to have church on my porch on a warm summer day. Have a cook out! I’d like to have church at a park under a big oak tree. When I used to go to church, I participated in their yearly Boundary Waters Canoe Area trips to Northern Minnesota for week-long camping. That was our church for the week; in the tents, and on the waters among the loons and fish. It was all about us and God and the beauty that surrounded us.

Nancy,

It is so nice to have you here! I give you a welcoming hug :)

[Paige]

Christy and Nancy,

I'm in complete agreement w/you. For years we were in churches and regularly tithed. It so happened that the churches we were in were small, so all the budget stayed w/in the building itself.

I've been in a home fellowship now for over 2 years. We support organizations that we feel will have a much broader outreach. I would like to be more involved w/a homeless shelter or soup kitchen, but am not aware of what is in our community beyond what the catholic church offers. I feel a little uncomfortable just showing up there w/no intention of becoming a catholic. Is that out of line? I don't know.

Anyway, I just wanted you to know (and everyone) that I find your thoughts inspiring and so wise! I feel that this is "Internet Church"! So, Nancy has Bagel church and internet church, I have home church and internet church, Christy and Ed have traditional church and internet church. Face it, we have been blessed w/lots of "Church"! Amie might even get "Overpass Church". Exciting! (Barry, Davo, Dano, Ozark, and all...What about you?)

Paige

[Infinite Grace]

Truthfully, what we are talking about here is basically "The emergent church." They meet in coffee houses, etc. rather than in "regular" places of worship. However, that is not to say that there are not folks who meet in traditional settings who are thinking emergent.

I have emergent leanings, but according to a survey I took a couple of days ago, I am NEO-ORTHODOX, which puts me with Karl Barth and PJ Forsyth. I need to read those guys to see what I believe...lol.

[christyG]

Neo-Orthodox -- sounds life-threatening... HA:)