Loose religion, find faith?

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
I am having a hard time this week with depending on God's faith to me and not getting obsessed with my faith in God.
I have learned so much here. But in all honesty I think I am going through a grieving process from Religion and my faith. I have come to see that many verses that I have cried out to God for years, have nothing to do with the content I have been taught.(you know, ask anything and it will be done for you) Call onto me and I will answer thee?? Those kinds of verses.
I don't know what to believe about God anymore. I pray and pray and nothing changes in my life. Are we truly in a relationship with God in this covenant now? It seems on days to be so one sided to me:(

If the Old Testament is really a story about a covenant, and the new a story about the fulfillment of that covenant.. Where does that leave me?
I do wonder on days, is God answering prayer?
What does God want from me?
Does anyone here know?
I am so broken, worn, struggling with loving what is and then wondering if what is, loves me.
I ask to many questions for God. I want to many answers from God.
Maybe I am just angry, because I feel I have been lied to for so many years in my religion. And yet, I take my bible and I beg God to show me the truth. And most the time I am finding , I just don't get it.
I suppose the life I have makes it harder to keep fighting to learn. My disability causes me great physical pain. Watching my children suffer, about does me in. My dad is in the nursing home now after a bad fall and the doctors didn't expect him to live. All my friends are having major breakdowns and me, I just keep going to Bagel church, not knowing what the purpose of my life is except to suffer.
The last church I was in, the young pastor told me my grief was because of sin in my life. I left, didn't believe that, and wondered when he would walk his walk in the wilderness. I just found out yesterday his 31 year old wife has cancer. I felt such sadness for them. But he will call on a God that will answer all his prayers, give him strength and follow the law of Evangelicalism to the tee and probably walk right through it.
Anyway, all those who want to join my big pity pot party today are welcome:biggrinbounce:
Just need to vent.
You guys have been so good to me.
Thank you all.
Nancy

[jlv]

I'm tempted to join your pity party. When my 31-year-old wife had cancer, we were on the receiving end of a lot of the kind of crap that preacher has dished out. The preacher always has an agenda. His troubles are always on that agenda, yours and mine never are.

JL

[Barry]

Hi,
I am having a hard time this week with depending on God's faith to me and not getting obsessed with my faith in God.
I have learned so much here. But in all honesty I think I am going through a grieving process from Religion and my faith. I have come to see that many verses that I have cried out to God for years, have nothing to do with the content I have been taught.(you know, ask anything and it will be done for you) Call onto me and I will answer thee?? Those kinds of verses.
I don't know what to believe about God anymore. I pray and pray and nothing changes in my life. Are we truly in a relationship with God in this covenant now? It seems on days to be so one sided to me:(

If the Old Testament is really a story about a covenant, and the new a story about the fulfillment of that covenant.. Where does that leave me?
I do wonder on days, is God answering prayer?
What does God want from me?
Does anyone here know?
I am so broken, worn, struggling with loving what is and then wondering if what is, loves me.
I ask to many questions for God. I want to many answers from God.
Maybe I am just angry, because I feel I have been lied to for so many years in my religion. And yet, I take my bible and I beg God to show me the truth. And most the time I am finding , I just don't get it.
I suppose the life I have makes it harder to keep fighting to learn. My disability causes me great physical pain. Watching my children suffer, about does me in. My dad is in the nursing home now after a bad fall and the doctors didn't expect him to live. All my friends are having major breakdowns and me, I just keep going to Bagel church, not knowing what the purpose of my life is except to suffer.
The last church I was in, the young pastor told me my grief was because of sin in my life. I left, didn't believe that, and wondered when he would walk his walk in the wilderness. I just found out yesterday his 31 year old wife has cancer. I felt such sadness for them. But he will call on a God that will answer all his prayers, give him strength and follow the law of Evangelicalism to the tee and probably walk right through it.
Anyway, all those who want to join my big pity pot party today are welcome:biggrinbounce:
Just need to vent.
You guys have been so good to me.
Thank you all.
Nancy

Vent sis, vent! No problem.

IMHO here is the question:
"Is is all worth it?"
There is one final answer to that one question IMHO.
"YES IT IS!"
So we hold hands and continue on till we cannot continue anymore. Then others take our place. Whatever the continuing outcome of this is we may not know fully but we may know in "intent".
Good things just don't happen, and they do not happen easily. We know we are in a much better position than in ancient times. We know that we have been delivered from the law of sin and death and this was no easy road and it took a lot of time and sacrifice on God's behalf. Yes God has told us that he is with us all the way and through it all.

Perhaps we may see things a little differently. Suffering is never an easy thing to deal with. Seeing loved ones suffer is no better. Maybe if possible we could step back from it all and see life here as a whole experience. The good and the bad. The ups and the downs.
One thing is for sure. If you live long enough tragedy will be experienced. If you live long enough you will die [not trying to be funny here it just sounds that way ;) ]
Somehow then life may need to be seen with this in mind but yet for more than this. I'm not one to put an artificial smile on my face when tragedy or difficult times come. But underneath it all there is a contentment. This helps me see the gifts I already have. Like you sis.
Barry

[backtothefuture]

JL,
I am sorry you and your wife had to go through that crud when she was sick. Did you loose or leave your religion then? Were you thinking about that before that happened? Where is your faith today? If you have time to answer.

Barry,
I hope you are right and it is all worth it. In my heart, I keep thinking of the greater good. My children's, children's, children. Maybe they will see more of what some of us hoped the Kingdom of God would look like in our life time.

blessings
Nancy

[jlv]

I'm tempted every moment to say to hell with the church.

JL

[alicia]

Nancy,

I think the best thing to do is to just vent. You have every right to feel the way you do, don't question it, and don't feel guilty about it. I have found that once you ride every emotion raw, God has a way of coming through and you will see Him more frequently. Throw all the rules out and just breathe. If on a day your pain scale is a 10/10 with 10 being the worst of your life, try to find a distractor that will take the focus from it. It may just take the pain from a 10 to a 9, but it's a start. God is there. It could be in a book that you read, a phone call from a friend - deliberately try to find something that reminds you of a Loving God. It might not last for more than a few minutes, but you will find Him and notice that some of the pain is gone just a little. Build on that. Open the windows let some light in the house. God's there.

I have found that reading, playing an instrument, sewing, something that takes total concentration is a good way to escape for a while. It's absolutely impossible for me to play the piano and think of something else at the same time. Once you take your mind off things for a while, there seems to be a better solution that surfaces. In my opinion, that is what they mean when you're supposed to just let God lead the way. When a simple solution surfaces, a positive one, and not a negative one, you know it's an answer from God.

Just my simplistic view,
Alicia

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Alicia,
Some days on a scale of 1-10 my pain is at a 15. Emotionally, spiritually and physically. I just don't know what brings it on. I think those are actually the days that I really am feeling my true self actually. I am so good at being the rescuer and enabler for everyone else, when not much comes my way. Its just those days that the blisters start oozing and then I start the entire cycle of hating my life, worrying about all the decisions I made, wondering just what and who God is. Those days, I can't play my guitar, can't read my bible, just feel such an incredible hole in my soul that I can't even explain.
I am a surviver though, and it will pass, because it has to. I have to go on know matter what.
One emotion, I guess you would call it that I just can't beat is being cynical. Especially when it comes to church and religion. I can't believe how terrible I can talk about those things. I know its partly the pain and disappointment I feel. But I was hoping I was beyond this by now. But I am not. I am cynical, really cynical. This is a person who use to be a bible thumping, evangelical dumping, fundamental believing, if you are not saved you are going to hell mentality and my view has totally changed. I think I am still in the process of grieving over all that and feeling some guilt and shame myself for the type of person I was under that.
I feel my faith in God, means something totally different and I can't figure it all out yet. My faith in my marriage is bad, in myself is bad, in life in general is bad.
Barry, has such a positive outlook on the future and humanity. I have such a hard time finding those small light bulb moments. I do get them, but so rarely.
I just keep thinking its me. The reason I feel this way, is cause its me. I must be doing something wrong. My loneliness is incredible. But know one sees it or knows about it until now. I am like a dish sitting on a shelf in this house. I am broken and chipped and I am kept on the shelf. No use for a broken dish. I guess I am just having a hard time feeling like I have worth. My kids don't need me, my husband does find without me, my friends only call when they are hysterical, my church says I am sinning, and I don't understand how I missed the fulfillment view when I have read the bible a zillion times.
Three years ago, when I would walk, I started saying to myself, the kingdom of God is within you. And I have no clue why. But its been a roller coaster ride.
Anyway, Thanks for letting me vent:biggrinbounce:
Felt pretty good actually!!
JL. are you still involved in church, if so, why?
Nancy

[jlv]

Nancy,

Because Scripture calls us to be.

JL

[Lou]

Quote:


Barry has such a positive outlook on the future and humanity.

I also believe the future for humanity is bright. Some of the problem that gives us a negative outlook is the media. From mostly bad news to commercials that let you know what you have is inadequate and you deserve better.

The truth is there has never been a better time for humanity. And a really bright spot is that many young people today are turning from church/religion and relating to God their own way. They are having a personal relationship with God without the religious baggage.

[backtothefuture]

Lou,
I think you are right some. Our daughter was in 4 weddings this year and only one took place in a church. Two were in a park and one in the home.
That would have been a big no no years ago.
I actually have thought about canceling the cable tv. We have only had it 2 years and its just so much bad stuff all the time. I don't want to be ignorant of what is going on in the world, but I think I watch to much of it:eek:
JL. Where are we called in Scripture to keep attending church? I would like to read that passage if you get a minute.
Nancy

[jlv]

So please let me do you a favor and not lay that burden on you.

JL

[backtothefuture]

Ok JL,
But please if your are hurting, please share. Misery loves company:rolleyes:
I am not trying to bait you. Would just like to hear your perspective on this issue. I still have my old Sunday School teacher who is 80, coming over to bagel church every now and then, telling me I need to be in church. I should not be forsaking the assembling together of believers or something like that.
The weird thing is, that everyone I meet at Bagel Church is a believer, so how could I be forsaking that issue.:confused:
Anyway,
Thanks for the note back.
Nancy

[Paige]

Nancy,

What people are telling you is their interpretation of scripture (and I think also misapplied). Something to keep in mind is that what passes for "church" today is very different than what the NT church actually practiced.

In essence, these people are well meaning folk who devoutly believe that your participation in their club is a necessity in order to be in right standing with God. You've obviously grown past their understanding, and this will always cause a schism. Since you know better, you can be calm in the face of immaturity. God has empowered you to be loving and understanding because first and foremost, you've been there too :) There is no need to be defensive, just live what you know and let the chips fall where they may. (Thats my motto, anyway.)

And by the way, from where I sit you are in no way foresaking fellowhip with other believers. That does not require fancy buildings, pews, altars, or crosses on the wall. Keep looking into the face of God :)

Paige

[Amie]

I pray and pray and nothing changes in my life.

Dear sister, could you be praying for strength and/or ability that you already have? Might God have already answered and be waiting for you to make those changes that you want?


Maybe if possible we could step back from it all and see life here as a whole experience.

I so agree Barry. God is found in suffering, tears, pain, and saddness - He is there as well. God is faithful. We are not abandoned in our suffering, we are embraced.

Like Alicia said:


..once you ride every emotion raw, God has a way of coming through..

It's so true. It can be so difficult to allow emotion to take the wheel and to just feel wholly and honestly. I LOVE "City of Angels" - this reminds me of it. Here's some quotes that moved me, hope y'all like them too:




Seth: You're a good doctor.
Maggie: How do you know?
Seth: I have a feeling.
Maggie: Yeah, well that's pretty flimsy evidence.
Seth: Close your eyes. Just for a second... what am I doing?
Maggie: You're... touching me.
Seth: How do you know?
Maggie: Because, I feel it.
Seth: You should trust that. You don't trust it enough



Seth: Why do people cry?
Maggie: What do you mean?
Seth: I mean... what happens physically?
Maggie: Well... umm... tear ducts operate on a normal basis to lubricate and protect the eye and when you have an emotion they overreact and create tears.
Seth: Why? Why do they overreact?
Maggie: [pause] I don't know.
Seth: Maybe... maybe emotion becomes so intense your body just can't contain it. Your mind and your feelings become too powerful... and your body weeps.

It takes a lot of strength imo, to let the mind and feelings have that power (which are really a part of us that is often buried), and to weep.

Imo, we are free to do as our conscience calls us to do.

Romans 14:2 reads "One indeed believes to eat all things, but being weak, another one eats vegetables." Should we then shame the person that eats the vegetables? The question is answered:


3 The one eating, do not despise the one not eating. And the one not eating, do not judge the one eating, for God received him.
4 Who are you judging another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. But he will stand, for God is able to make him stand.
5 One indeed judges a day above another day; and another one judges every day alike. Let each one be fully assured in his own mind.
6 The one minding the day, he minds it to the Lord. And the one not minding the day, he does not mind it to the Lord. The one eating, he eats to the Lord; for he gives thanks to God. And the one not eating, he does not eat to the Lord, and gives thanks to God.
7 For no one of us lives to himself and no one dies to himself.
8 For both if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Then both if we live, and if we die, we are the Lord's.

We both live to the Lord. All of us. Those who go to church, those who do not, those who keep from pork, and those who do not.


So please let me do you a favor and not lay that burden on you.

That sounds like:

13 Then let us no longer judge one another, but rather judge this, not to put a stumbling-block or an offense toward a brother.
14 I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing by itself is common; except to the one deeming anything to be common, it is common.
15 But if your brother is grieved because of your food, you no longer walk according to love. Do not by your food destroy that one for whom Christ died.
16 Then do not let your good be spoken evil of.
17 For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

I started a thread on church attendance here: http://talk-grace.com/forumdisplay.php?f=23.

Amie

[jlv]

Nancy,

Jesus said he was building his congregation. He gave the congregation some earthly authority.

Paul told Timothy and Titus to appoint elders to lead congregations. There is no hint in these passages that this was only for the next 6 years and that the congregation would then be abolished.

Any church leader who claims to have a "gift" or "calling" or was "led to this ministry" is certainly suspect. Theologically, morally, or both.

But this does not deny the fact that Jesus and Paul expected local congregations to be developed and supported by Christians in the community.

JL

[backtothefuture]

Thanks all.
Technically, I am in church. Bagel church:D I mean look at all the home churches out there.
JL. I just don't understand your reasoning for staying in something you would like to say go to hell. I had to get out. I was going nuts there.
Anyway, I thought we were the church. You, me, those here. We are gathering every time we write here and talk and minister and pray for one another.
But, I respect your reasons for going. Its your call in the end.
Thanks for the note back.
Nancy
Do you think then God still appoints teachers and pastors and even the gifts at this point?

[jlv]

by the apostles. This is the clear testimony of Scripture. Show me an apostle. Since they all died 1900+ years ago, there are none.

Clement of Alexandria testified that all Scripture was finished, the spiritual gifts ended, and all miracles that occurred at the command of the righteous ceased sometime between Peter's death in Rome (AD 65-66) and Paul's death in Rome (AD 67-68). Clement's standard was eventually used as one of the standards for determining the NT canon. The early church saw all 3 issues as being closely tied together (I Cor. 13). I agree with that standard.

So no preacher or teacher today is gifted, nor are any called by God.

JL

[Paige]

JL,

I hope you don't mind me picking your brain a bit, but I'm really interested in your opinion. What is your vision (if you have one, of course) for what a church should be "doing" today?

Personally, I'd love to be part of a larger community if it was mission oriented. By this, I don't mean out to preach hell and get everybody saved, but rather helping those who are struggling. This could be financially, healthwise, etc... I guess you could say helping everyone to experience that "abundant life" that is available for each of us right now. What I've experienced up to now has been more about how to keep "the church" operating (be it taking care of the building, getting a better building, getting more people in the door so we are better off financially, etc.). IOW, it all seems to be focused inward rather than outward.

Paige

[jlv]

It would be too presumptuous of me to have a vision of the church. I'm really beyond caring and have been for 16 years. Being run off because your wife has cancer and the elders want "a happy church," does something to you.

JL

[Paige]

Well, thats certainly understandable. Perhaps that too (the wanting a "happy" church), is one of the side effects of an inward focus, rather than an outward one. Hmmm...

Paige

[Amie]

It would be too presumptuous of me to have a vision of the church. I'm really beyond caring and have been for 16 years. Being run off because your wife has cancer and the elders want "a happy church," does something to you.

JL

JL,

I'm absolutely shocked. That is just terrible! I'm so sorry that you had to go through that!!

How is your wife?

Amie

[jlv]

But she was 31 at the time and pregnant with our now essentially grown son. "A happy church" was a direct quote. So is, "We think you'd be happier someplace else."

That and those eunuchs all took offense when my wife asked them to use the promise of 1 Tim. 2:15 in their prayer. They decided to argue the meaning of the passage instead.

JL

[Barry]

by the apostles. This is the clear testimony of Scripture. Show me an apostle. Since they all died 1900+ years ago, there are none.
JL

An excellent point IMO. The first century church in its organized structure cannot be taken beyond the death of the apostles.
The prerequisite for being an apostle (office of apostle not the mere verb form of one sent) was witness to the raised Christ.
Once they died the office became "historical" in its ongoing work.
The same for all the first-fruits (Rev. 3:12) as pertains to their "function".

Without Apostles there is no one to oversea the Evangelist (Timothy, Titus) and therefore no one to appoint elders or pastors. IMHO the church organization cannot be taken beyond AD 70.
IMHO church today has its place. It is however a place that it itself is not fully aware of.
The exceptions will become more numerous very soon IMO.

JMO
Barry

[Amie]

JL,

How sad. They totally missed the point of what she was wanting. How did y'all pull through?

Amie

[jlv]

Amie,

Thirteen months of crying by ourselves and no church family to support us. They didn't sit with us. They didn't get the blessings of answered prayer.

JL

[backtothefuture]

JL
Its so hard to be let down by Church and family isn't it.
We have had many instances with the church. And Family. When I fell down the stairs 13 years ago and fractured my back in 3 places, not one member from church helped, nor my family who all live within 5 minutes of me. I remember standing in the kitchen with my husband and holding each other and just crying.
I decided today that life is about crying. I hope that you and your wife and your hearts have healed some.
Nancy

[Amie]

JL,

Well I'm happy that you had one another to cling to - and God Himself never abandoned you.

Amie