church attendance

[Amie]

In my experience, Hebrews 10:25 was taught as a law. It is taught as a new covenant law and not going to church is taught as law-breaking (sinning).


24 And let us consider one another, to incitement of love and of good works,
25 not forsaking the assembling together of ourselves, as is the custom of some, but exhorting, and by so much more as you see the Day drawing near.

They were seeing the "Day" drawing near, and were to gather more-so the closer it got. They were looking for Christ's second appearance, they expecting Him for salvation. (Hebrews 9:28)

Weren't they looking to be saved from their bondage to sin via their inability to keep the law? Wouldn't such a second appearance then carry out that expectation?

They were assured that they would receive it (Hebrews 10:35) though it was a fearful thing for them to fall into the hands of God (Hebrews 10:31). In Hebrews 10 he is assuring them, and restoring their confidence. Not only could they be sure enough to gather together, but they could increase that gathering the closer the "Day" drew.

They feared gathering together. People were hunting down and killing Christians. According to the Hebrews author though, they could be assured that God would triumph.

When I was a young girl, that verse (Hebrews 10:25) was used as a weapon to scare me because I wasn't an actual member of any particular church. It worked and I kept it to myself for a long time.

My Dad always seemed to have his nose in the bible, and he attended church off and on until it was finally off. Fearful I asked him about that verse. That's when he put it into context for me - historical context. He reminded me like he did so often to remember that these letters were written to a certain people, in a certain time.

So, I no longer see that verse as a commandment of sorts. That doesn't mean that I think that church isn't beneficial for some people. I haven't found to be for me. I do though enjoy "gathering" very much - online, at conferences, at work, etc.

Amie

[Lou]

The assembling in Hebrews 10 is the same as the gathering in 2 Thessalonians 2 use the same Greek word “episunagoge” is used for assembling and gathering. In fact that Greek word is used only in these two verses.

Both of these speak of the need to be watchful of the ones to turn them back and the nearness of Christ’s “parousia.”

It has nothing to do with going to church.

[davo]

The assembling in Hebrews 10 is the same as the gathering in 2 Thessalonians 2 use the same Greek word “episunagoge” is used for assembling and gathering. In fact that Greek word is used only in these two verses.

Both of these speak of the need to be watchful of the ones to turn them back and the nearness of Christ’s “parousia.”

It has nothing to do with going to church.Amen to that Lou :25_coolguy:

[Amie]

Is anyone familiar with any other passages that have been our are used as laws or even just encouragers, to attend a church?

Thanks,

Amie

[sarahb]

I know one through the grapevine to describe my lack of church attendance. Something to the effect that the one who isolates himself seeks his own desire. It is true. I desire truth.

[goinliveinfive]

Sarah,

I agree with you to the extent that we ought to be seeking the truth and the truth is not found in the vast majority of the churches out there, but I also think that the decision to not attend church should be one that a person makes out of a sense of duty to oneself and to rid themselves of the distractions associated with Pop Christianity. It should not, however, be one made out of pride. I'm not making an accusation because I may be reading things in your reply that aren't there (text can be a very difficult medium to through which to convey attitude) but I believe I caught a slight undercurrent of "so there-ness" in your reply that concerns me a little. Let me lay a few things out on the table so you know where I'm coming from:

1. Any church that teaches a future coming of Christ teaches heresy.
2. Any church that teaches that people go to Hell for not following Jesus teaches heresy.
3. Not every church that adheres to Futurism and popular principles of Soteriology is necessarily a bad place to be.

Those things being said, I think that one can pursue the truth and still enjoy the fellowship of those who have chosen to be participants in God's Grace and profess faith in Jesus Christ. There are flaws in everybody's doctrine, including yours and mine. I guess it just jarred me to read what you wrote and realize the finality of its perceived tone. It is possible to seek the truth and still be visible to our Christian bretheren. It is equally possible to have fellowship with them the way Christ had fellowship with the people of His day, many of whom couldn't have cared less who He was so long as the food and wine held out. So I guess the question that everyine who is weighing the scales in these matters should ask themselves is whether it's truth or simply separatism that we're seeking by forsaking regular fellowship with other believers. Jesus loved us enough to die for us with our flaws intact. Personally, I think we should be working harder to see beyond the flaws in people and in their doctrine. In the end, every score will be even so why be so critical of who teaches what? Enjoy the people and, when it's appropriate share the truth you've discovered with them.

Just my two-hundredths of a dollah....

[Barry]

I go to church at work.
I go to church at the grocery store.
I go to church when driving.
Church is everywhere.
All is in all.


OK I know! Not all these people believe.
That is true but it is also true of so called church.

So called church in some instances is a separatist movement to itself when it does not function with a view toward humanity.

We think of church as the people that are meeting together at one particular time as a part of an organization that people voted in or established.
What about all those people that don't come anymore because they did not feel part of it all, or felt truly welcome or even were outright offended.
Churches have agendas. If you don't fit into their agenda you are expendable.
So what makes a church a "church"? Usually the facade of having authority to be a church. For when one looks into the authority issue you sometimes find just a few people who think that they can represent God on behalf of others.
Interesting presumption is it not?

Also, I completely agree with Lou. "It has nothing to do with going to church."

Some Hebrew Christians were forsaking the gathering together in regards to the "way behind the veil".

It is good to fellowship with those that believe. It is good to fellowship with those that do not.
JMO
Barry

[Tam]

Amen to all you said Barry. Tami

[sarahb]

goinliveinfive,


I'm not making an accusation because I may be reading things in your reply that aren't there (text can be a very difficult medium to through which to convey attitude) but I believe I caught a slight undercurrent of "so there-ness" in your reply that concerns me a little.

I appreciate you being honest. The truth is that I despise church, the traditions, the ...emptyness of it. I taught childrens church for several years because I hated to be in the service and hear the same message over and over...'we need to pray, fast, and speak in tongues more, so that the blood of those on the reservation will not be on our heads. We need revival!' In truth, I didn't want a revival, I didn't want any of it. During this period I didn't know about ur or fulfilled estol..you know. I was just confused and unhappy and beat up because I didn't preach the word so I could bring others into the fold so they could be just as unhappy as I was. A year ago our church split, the paster left, and my family took the quickest exist from the church system. I'm not ready to put myself through that torture again.

In truth, I absolutely love the people in the church. I am saddened that they do not see the merry-go-round they are on. It is not the people I despise, it is religion.

When I wrote the statement above it was aimed at a mental picture of someone who I know has created a case against us who do not attend church. Perhaps I am a little bitter toward people who administer pet scriptures to put me in a box when they have no idea what has been going on in my head. The truth is that I just have to swallow it, because it isn't 'them', it is a system. I thought of that as a 'come back' if I were ever told that I 'isolate myself and seek my own desire' in person. Kinda childish, I know, and it showed. :o

[Amie]

Sarah,

"..if I ever were told that I 'isolate myself and seek my own desire' in person."

What that an undercurrent type of teaching in the churches that you've attended? How did that make you feel?

Amie

[sarahb]

What(was?) that an undercurrent type of teaching in the churches that you've attended? How did that make you feel?




Absolutely! Those who don't attend church are definitly looked down on. Almost the worst thing you can be labeled is a 'casual christian'. Here are many type of labels, and I am sure I fit many of their definitions...'lukewarm', 'hypocrit', 'isolating myself', 'forsaking the assembly', 'tossed about with every wind of doctrine', 'drunkard', and 'deceived'.

It makes me feel very alone. Perhaps people don't think these things about me, and it is my own 'tares' within that accuse me, but this church was the small church I grew up in, mostly family, and I know the kitchen table discussions.

I don't care so much because I'm so free within. It is just lonely.

[Paige]

Sarah,

Let me just say that I definitely know how you feel. I'm going through the same with certain factions of our own family. I'm finding it very hard to return love in exchange for the judgement that is being dished out. I don't know if I'm doing such a bang-up job of it right now.

Paige

[Amie]

Sarah,

I remember the "lukewarm" description! It was added that that position even made Jesus vomit! Isn't that terrible? To take something so far out of context, and to what purpose?

I think that some of them really care and really think that our souls are their business. I remember feeling desparate myself a while ago. It's ugly for everybody involved.

I can relate to certain words triggering old pain. "Sin nature" used to inspire defensiveness in me -- for me, or for others. It was used to encourage self loathing in my experiences. Thankfully, I had the folks around here to talk to and work through it with. I don't feel condemned by it anymore, but know that others are as a reality. If I am unable to educate, I refuse to allow condemnation to flow from me onto them, know what I mean?

I think that a lot of folks here can relate to your lonliness. Perhaps there are other ways that you can connect with folks, now that church is no longer an option for you? We're here of course :D, though I realize that is no substitute for a warm body to go have coffee with.

Amie

[Barry]

Sarah
The reality of the situation is that church behavior is not loving behavior.
Church's are their for the supreme purpose of self preservation.

Instead of working to set a model for all of society concerning what can be done when we see ourselves are members of one another it excludes itself from the all in all of God's declaration and so excludes society in general.

IMHO you are on the right track sis and you are not alone.

I give a big brother hug!!

Some Church will get it right latter and some are changing around already. We will have to be patient.
Barry

[Amie]

Joe,

I just wanna add that I can also relate to what you are saying. When I feel defensive, it isn't okay just to box everyone in to the same space. Not everyone, IE, uses "sin nature" to breed self-loathing. And as for those that do, are we not able to bring grace into their lives as well? As you said, "Jesus loved us enough to die for us with our flaws intact."

So how does one go about no longer enabling abuse and not being a separatist?

As for me, I don't attend church. I fellowship all over the place with people who do though. Church is not the only place to fellowship and leaving it doesn't necessarily make a person a separatist. It's attitude that creates that in someone's heart.

Just some thoughts,

Amie

[sarahb]

If I am unable to educate, I refuse to allow condemnation to flow from me onto them, know what I mean?

Yes. I would say when I was first becoming established in my belief of UR, I was condescending in thought toward those who did not believed in hell, but I now do not condemn anyone for their beliefs. The mind is a tricky thing, and I know that logic and emotions can be very deceptive creatures, and I am certainly not immune from their ploys.

My problem is that I feel like I need to have all my t's crossed and i's dotted scripturally before I mention my beliefs. I do alright online with people who believe the same, but in person I freeze up and get emotional. Us women:)

QUOTE]
I think that a lot of folks here can relate to your lonliness. Perhaps there are other ways that you can connect with folks, now that church is no longer an option for you? We're here of course , though I realize that is no substitute for a warm body to go have coffee with.
[/QUOTE]

The internet has been a real outlet, but sometimes it would be nice to meet a real live person who saw the same.


IMHO you are on the right track sis and you are not alone.

I give a big brother hug!!


Thank you Barry. It's nice to hear, well....read. :)

[Amie]

Let me just say that I definitely know how you feel. I'm going through the same with certain factions of our own family. I'm finding it very hard to return love in exchange for the judgement that is being dished out. I don't know if I'm doing such a bang-up job of it right now.

And how do you feel when they do that?


My problem is that I feel like I need to have all my t's crossed and i's dotted scripturally before I mention my beliefs. I do alright online with people who believe the same, but in person I freeze up and get emotional.

Why is that do you think?


The internet has been a real outlet, but sometimes it would be nice to meet a real live person who saw the same.

Realizing that I'm full of questions, lol!! What is it that you would want them to see the same of?

Amie

[Paige]

And how do you feel when they do that?

My first inclination is that I want to curl up in a ball and hide away from them, ie. separation. It is a mode of self-protection, I think, because I don't want to expose myself to more condemnation and judgement. Then I start the inward conversation (aka, battle) of getting very defensive that someone would actually treat me this way. It makes for a lot of uninvestigated thoughts, and stories that I build up to cause even more suffering. Combine all that with a busy schedule that makes it very easy to not ask the 4 questions, and you have a recipe for internal disaster!

IOW, I'm feeling quite stunted right now in my growth...

Paige

[sarahb]

Paige,


It makes for a lot of uninvestigated thoughts, and stories that I build up to cause even more suffering. Combine all that with a busy schedule that makes it very easy to not ask the 4 questions, and you have a recipe for internal disaster!



Iv'e been guilty of building novels regarding a person intentions based upon minimal evidence. I'm learning I'm not the best at reading a person if you will.

What are these attacks if you don't mind me asking? And what are the 4 questions?

[sarahb]

Realizing that I'm full of questions, lol!!

Yes, I'm starting to feel like I'm in the psychiatrist's chair. Just Kidding


Originally Posted by Sarah
My problem is that I feel like I need to have all my t's crossed and i's dotted scripturally before I mention my beliefs. I do alright online with people who believe the same, but in person I freeze up and get emotional.


Why is that do you think?



I always envision myself in a debate with certain leaders, and am extremely intimidated. Like they are going to pull out of their hat some scripture from Lamentation 23:19 that debunks my beliefs, and then pull out the greek and hebrew and I'll walk away like a little puppy with my tail between my legs.

I'm much better at writing than expressing my thoughts in person, and when confronted, I shy away. I think it's the fear of confrontation, I hate it.

I suppose I'll have to get over it, because I know the confrontation will come, if not from anywhere, my in laws when they find out my beliefs from my kids, their grandchildren.


What is it that you would want them to see the same of?


no hell, no rapture, no end-of-the-world, universal reconcilliation.

[backtothefuture]

Hi Sarah,
I have really enjoyed and can relate so much to what you say. My name is Nancy and I have been attending what I call Bagel Church for almost 2 years. It has been the most healing experience in my life.
I left organized religion 2 years ago after the pastor of my church said my depression/grief was do to sin in my life.
If there is such a thing as hearing Gods voice, I swear he said "Nancy, shut your bible and walk out of this church!" And that is what I did.
I started going to this little bagel place right near my house. I took my bible every day for the first year and just wanted to start over and know what it was I believed in anymore.
The more I came here and posted questions and really finally for the first time in my life, learned about grace and learned that most of what I had learned under my Fundamental teaching was not true the more I was like a sponge just waiting to take in what ever I could soak up.
At first the loneliness about killed me. But God gave me this Bagel church. Soon I met the people sitting at the same table as me and after two years we have a great group going over there.
I was thinking last night. This has got to be what Jesus really met "church" to be. Its a community of people. All different faiths, that share a meal, share some coffee, encourage one another,it has turned out to be everything I ever longed for in a church but could never find.
I stopped chasing after God Sarah. I was broken. So one day I just sat back and was like, OK God, I believe you are here in my everyday life, help me to see.
Now, the loneliness is not a bad thing for me. I enjoy sitting alone, being alone, I don't have to be involved in something every minute or doing something every minute.
Anyway, I just wanted to encourage you. Leaving something you have believed in for a long time is in a way a grief process I believe anyway. I had to grieve and stop beating myself up for living in a closet for 55 years and not even having the courage to come out and look around. When I did, it was hard. Its like setting boundaries. Sometimes that backfires at first and makes things worse than better. Some of my evangelical friends don't call me anymore, or come to the bagel place. But I have made new friends. Were you a girl scout by any chance? We use to sing, Make new friends but keep the old, some are silver and the others Gold!
I have found friends of Gold here Sarah. I hope you will also.
Blessings,
Nancy:D

[christyG]

Hi all!

Hi Sarah, nice to, uhh, meet you:confused: :) .

Sarah said:
I always envision myself in a debate with certain leaders, and am extremely intimidated. Like they are going to pull out of their hat some scripture from Lamentation 23:19 that debunks my beliefs, and then pull out the greek and hebrew and I'll walk away like a little puppy with my tail between my legs.

I'm much better at writing than expressing my thoughts in person, and when confronted, I shy away. I think it's the fear of confrontation, I hate it. I can very much relate to that! I feel the same way! And, actually it feels good to know that there are others out there who have like experiences...It makes us feel safe to know we are not alone. Maybe if we had others physically with us at times when we are trying to discuss with someone else it would make us feel more comfortable. Actually, what I have noticed is that my intention often dictates how comfortable I am in sharing. If my intention is just to share information than often I am excited and I have no problem finding the words to say. But, if my intention is to debate or defend, then I often fumble what it is I want to say. I also think that many people try to lure us into debate through power plays and we sometimes can fall prey to that and again weaken under the power play of the other and fumble.

"Church" really is something else isn't it? I really had been holding out hope that "church" as we know it today could change. I, have as of yet to completely leave my church.:eek: All of the adjectives mention in earlier posts are being applied to me by others of the church....lukewarm, etc... I have stayed on as the elementary Sunday School teacher and usually come only for Sunday School and leave before the actual service:o . I had hoped that I could infiltrate the church and change the system from within, but it seems that that is not going to work.:1231: :cool:

I am interested in the Emergent Church movement and some of what they are trying to do. I still just am not sure about "church". I see "church" as a way to gather with those whom we percieve to be "like" us and gather strength from that. But it may be that it is our differences that make us stronger. What if people would gather with those different from them, those who worship differently, those who talk, look, act differently. What could be learned from that, would there be a benefit? My guess is that much could be learned and the benfit would be great.

But, I think that diversity in the way we live is the best way to go. Using Jesus as an example: He gathered with those with similar interests as he, he gathered with those whose interests were very different from his, he gathered with those with no particular interests it seems, and he also isolated himself as he needed at times.

What do you all think?

Christy

[Paige]

Hi again Sarah,

You asked me what the attacks were, and what were the 4 questions.

Basically, there is a faction of our family that doesn't understand what on earth we are doing. They can't believe we no longer attend a "real" church. They feel our beliefs regarding the timing of Christ's return (70) and what that means for us today is downright blasphemous. Because of this, they are constantly on the lookout for our downfall. They may be genuine in their feelings about our well-being, but at the same time (it feels as if) they are looking for ammunition to use against us to prove our "fall". It feels a little like living in a fish bowl when I'm around them.

The 4 questions are from Byron Katie. She advises that we stop and question our stories.

We ask:
1. Is it true?
2. Can you absolutely know that it is true?
3. How do you react when you think that thought?
4. Who would you be without that thought?

Asking these questions begins the process called "the work", in which we examine our stories and learn to let go of untrue thinking that causes our own suffering.

I need to do the work on my thoughts about this faction of the family right now, because I have a feeling I'm making it all worse than it really is...

Paige

[Amie]

Christy,

Following the example of Jesus is a tough one. On one hand I think, "Well, if we did that we would leave the churches in droves and sit with the rejected and outcast." There-again, Jesus died for the law keepers too. I would answer, simply put, to love everyone. Isn't it crazy? That it can be so simple? :scratch:

Amie

[sarahb]

Nancy,


If there is such a thing as hearing Gods voice, I swear he said "Nancy, shut your bible and walk out of this church!" And that is what I did.


That's funny. That is exactly what happened to me. I was actually reading where Jesus said it was better to cut off a hand or an eye than to be thrown into Gehenna where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. I know now the literal meaning of that, but that day Jesus spoke a personal word to me using that scripture.

I asked Jesus out loud what the fire and worms were. Immediately the words came to my mind; guilt and lust. I was almost shocked. I knew what He was telling me, that if I didn't myself from the church, that I would be thrown back into the cycle of guilt (not praying enough, reading enough), and lust (desiring the warm fuzzies and 'next move of God' and 'revival').


Anyway, I just wanted to encourage you. Leaving something you have believed in for a long time is in a way a grief process I believe anyway.

I can so relate. But now I'm free.

Your bagel church sounds wonderful. I'm Jeleous. :)

I know that fellowship is important, and if I felt Jesus wanted me to go to church again, I would, it would be hard, but I would have to, He's all I got.


I'll respond to others later, I have to get ready to go pick up a friend.

Sarah

[christyG]

Amie said:
On one hand I think, "Well, if we did that we would leave the churches in droves and sit with the rejected and outcast." I think you're right, Amie. I think that is where we should be..."out there". I also think that the people "in there" are more in need in many ways than the people "out there". So I then wonder, what should we be doing? I thought that by staying in, I could help from the inside out, but that is probably not the way to go. The reason that cannot work, IMO, is that the intention is to change someone else, when you are working with those on the "inside". When one works with those on the "outside" I think one's main intention is just to share. I now think that by working on the "outside" we can draw others "out". That is what it seems that Jesus did, I'm thinking Nicodemus and others.

What I was thinking with my thought about Jesus's example was that I do think it is beneficial to "gather" in groups of some sort. I think that the realization that we are not alone gives us strength. This is also very dangerous in a way also, because groups also breed many bi-products that are not beneficial.

And Amie, I also think you are right....it is just as simple as loving everyone.

Christy