Sharing beliefs with family and friends

[David Timm]

How do you handle sharing your unorthodox Christian beliefs with your orthodox family and friends? My wife and I have been able to be open about our beliefs with my parents and siblings but my mother in-law and sister in-law (Baptists) are another story. They think we believe the same as them but for some strange reason we don't go to church. I've shared a general overview of my beliefs in covenantal eschatology with my two closest friends about 2 years ago but I'm having a difficult time bringing up my Christian Universalism. Part of me feels that I shouldn't because of the conflict that it most likely would bring but on the other hand I don't want to act like I'm ashamed of my beliefs because I'm not. These beliefs for me have totally changed my life and the picture I now have of God and His love for humanity is indescribibly beautiful. I greatly desire to share this with them but I also fear losing their friendships. Any thoughts or similar experiences?

David

[Paige]

Similar experiences here! I've been able to openly share with my side of the family, but my husband has a few siblings that we feel we can't be entirely open with right now. (Its funny too, because his parents have come on this journey along with us.) One of his brother's is just very much into his church and their teachings. He is not ready to hear anything other than what their Pastor is telling them.

As for reception, one of my sisters feels that it makes good sense, yet she is not grounded enough in the scriptures to come right out and say that is the way it is. Another sister is in the catholic church, and taking a wait and see approach. My mom can't go along with it because her foundation is SDA, and she can't seem to see how she could have been wrong about her convictions all those years ago. My dad (and step-mom) don't really care. They don't seem to have any interest in spiritual things.

As for my husband's siblings, we're going to wait on God to open those doors. I'm sure they wonder why we don't go to "church" anymore, but they do know that we have a home fellowship group.

Nice hearing from you again! Say hi to Monica from me :)

Paige

[Amie]

David,

If the subject comes up, I usually offer my view like I would if we were talking about anything else. The other day at work, a coworker began to talk about God's disapproval for those who don't do what they are supposed to. I said "I just don't think that God is standing over us, waiting to hit us with lightning". That went into further discussion. It could have fizzled there too, and I would have been fine.

What situation do you find yourself wanting to open up in?

Amie

[David Timm]

What situation do you find yourself wanting to open up in?

Amie, there are two different situations that have recently been issues for me and Monica. One concerns one of our friends, Clint, and the other are my in-laws. There is also a personal factor involved for me and I know Monica feels the same way. Why can't we be honest about our beliefs with those close to us? Why are we acting like we are ashamed of them? During our pre-"heresy" days we could have conversations and be open about our faith with family and friends. Clint, Monica, and I would often sit for hours with a pot of coffee and just talk about the Bible. But as Monica and I started believing in fulfilled prophecy those conversations occured less and less. Clint still seems to respect our beliefs and even asks me questions occasionally. He has even admitted to being undecided on the issue of eschatology after being a committed dispensationalist for many years. To me now preterism is just as frustrating as dispensationalism. It is not just about theology but, more importantly, what Christ accomplished. Sure, theology is interesting and important to understand why things are the way they are but sharing the reconcilation of all things is what is exciting to me. If the traditional view of judgment were true then who cares if Jesus returned in 70AD? I'm having a difficult time holding this in from those close to me. I want to share what Jesus really did for humanity but I fear rejection of it and damaged relationships. Monica is frustrated with hearing my mother in-law talk about how God is going to punish certain family members for the way they are living (not us, lol) and she wants to be able to say "mom, that is not the kind of God I believe in". For the last two years Monica and I haven't been able to see Clint very much due to our busier schedules and his. He graduated college and moved about 50 miles away to work for an accounting firm downtown and has become very active in his new church and singles group. I talked to him the other day for quite a while and I'm going to go visit him tomorrow. At one point he brought up theology and seemed more open minded then he used to be. It had been about six months since we had a long conversation. I mentioned that my beliefs had changed in quite a few ways since our old conversations about preterism (almost 2 years ago). He asked me about my views on salvation and I told him we would need a lot of time to talk about that. A few months back I wrote a document about my beliefs of Christian Universalism and their necessary relationship with covenant eschatology. Many of the topics within it I spoke on at the T-2006 conference. Part of me wants to bring it just in case tomorrow to either let him read it or hold on to it in case he ever wants to. The other part of me thinks this is a bad idea because I know he would consider it heresy. Any thoughts?

David

[Amie]

David,

I have lots of thoughts :D.


Amie, there are two different situations that have recently been issues for me and Monica. One concerns one of our friends, Clint, and the other are my in-laws. There is also a personal factor involved for me and I know Monica feels the same way. Why can't we be honest about our beliefs with those close to us? Why are we acting like we are ashamed of them? During our pre-"heresy" days we could have conversations and be open about our faith with family and friends.

One of the Webster's definitions of "shame" is "something that brings censure or reproach". Is it possible that you are ashamed and that the old "if you're ashamed of me before my Father, I'll reject you" feelings are just stacking shame upon shame? In that actually feeling that shame is shameful?

The ability to feel that shame could also afford y'all the ability to overcome it. God can take it :).


Clint, Monica, and I would often sit for hours with a pot of coffee and just talk about the Bible. But as Monica and I started believing in fulfilled prophecy those conversations occured less and less. Clint still seems to respect our beliefs and even asks me questions occasionally. He has even admitted to being undecided on the issue of eschatology after being a committed dispensationalist for many years.

Clint is familiar with your beliefs then? Did he stop the conversations? Who stopped them?


To me now preterism is just as frustrating as dispensationalism. It is not just about theology but, more importantly, what Christ accomplished. Sure, theology is interesting and important to understand why things are the way they are but sharing the reconcilation of all things is what is exciting to me. If the traditional view of judgment were true then who cares if Jesus returned in 70AD?

Everyone is working on the same puzzle, but not everyone is on the same corner. You've moved past the theology, but not everyone has. Some folks learn the ABC's before getting where you are, and some move in a different direction. Freedom is a beautiful thing, as is diversity - but polar opposites can be hard to deal with, haha.

It's a beautiful wish to wish that everyone could feel as free as you.. a beautiful wish. Noble even.


I'm having a difficult time holding this in from those close to me. I want to share what Jesus really did for humanity but I fear rejection of it and damaged relationships.

Maybe in a different context? If you have just told someone close to you that you don't like strawberry ice cream, and they stopped talking to you because they were so offended, would it be your fault? They will make their own decissions - they control them. What you do does not 'make' them be or react the way that they do. Sure there's that raw emotional first reaction that is more about what we're used to, but from there it is up to us to take the wheel and drive the car.

You are willing to pay the price of repression (and repression hurts) because you feel responsible for their actions? That hardly seems fair.

If the situation is "case sensitive" then of course you would want to be diplomatic. I wouldn't advise uh, "Look you dumb @#$! people don't go to hell!!" lol!


Monica is frustrated with hearing my mother in-law talk about how God is going to punish certain family members for the way they are living (not us, lol) and she wants to be able to say "mom, that is not the kind of God I believe in".

"Monica is not able to say..", is that true? I've met her and she seemed really abled ;). Is she in the same boat as you? Feeling the same ways I mean?


For the last two years Monica and I haven't been able to see Clint very much due to our busier schedules and his. He graduated college and moved about 50 miles away to work for an accounting firm downtown and has become very active in his new church and singles group. I talked to him the other day for quite a while and I'm going to go visit him tomorrow. At one point he brought up theology and seemed more open minded then he used to be. It had been about six months since we had a long conversation. I mentioned that my beliefs had changed in quite a few ways since our old conversations about preterism (almost 2 years ago). He asked me about my views on salvation and I told him we would need a lot of time to talk about that. A few months back I wrote a document about my beliefs of Christian Universalism and their necessary relationship with covenant eschatology. Many of the topics within it I spoke on at the T-2006 conference. Part of me wants to bring it just in case tomorrow to either let him read it or hold on to it in case he ever wants to. The other part of me thinks this is a bad idea because I know he would consider it heresy.

What does that mean? That he considers it heresy? That he will stop talking to you? Respecting you?

Amie

[davo]

To me now preterism is just as frustrating as dispensationalism. It is not just about theology but, more importantly, what Christ accomplished. Sure, theology is interesting and important to understand why things are the way they are but sharing the reconcilation of all things is what is exciting to me. If the traditional view of judgment were true then who cares if Jesus returned in 70AD?
Yes Dave, this is where it is at for me too -- the message of 'realised eschatology' pales into insignificance in relation 'realised redemption', for this is the message that brings real life. BUT I have to say, it was because of [for me anyway] the fullfilled prophecy message that has let me to the pantelism I hold today.

[David Timm]

Is it possible that you are ashamed and that the old "if you're ashamed of me before my Father, I'll reject you" feelings are just stacking shame upon shame? In that actually feeling that shame is shameful?

The ability to feel that shame could also afford y'all the ability to overcome it. God can take it :).

Though I'm sure it is possible, in my mind it seems very unlikely. I don't believe that the "if you're ashamed..." passage can still be applied to anyone. Now that I take another look at it "ashamed" seems like a bad word to use. Though I no longer fear God's rejection I do fear the rejection of those close to me....mainly in the aspect of losing the friendship or comfortable relationship. I definitely know that Clint knows that their are certain beliefs I am not sharing because I have hinted at this. From his perspective it may appear that I'm ashamed of them. I don't want this to be the message that he is getting but their is a good chance that my pride is also involved.




Clint is familiar with your beliefs then? Did he stop the conversations? Who stopped them?

Other than Christian Universalism, yes, but in a very general manner. In a way we both stopped the conversations. Clint is very obsessive and this carries over into his thoughts on his theology. He seems to have respect for me for what I believe. I can almost guarantee that he would have thrown the possibility of past fulfillment out the window a long time ago if almost anyone else had shared it with him. But he also seems somewhat fearful of the possibility of it being true. If he would accept it as we did his worldview would be shattered as ours was. Even more so if I introduced the CU. This, along with the friendship, is mainly why I stopped the conversations...my views were greatly changing. He also used to quite close minded and for this reason would end the conversations but this doesn't seem to be the case as much anymore.



Everyone is working on the same puzzle, but not everyone is on the same corner. You've moved past the theology, but not everyone has. Some folks learn the ABC's before getting where you are, and some move in a different direction. Freedom is a beautiful thing, as is diversity - but polar opposites can be hard to deal with, haha.

It's a beautiful wish to wish that everyone could feel as free as you.. a beautiful wish. Noble even.

Thank you! Freedom is definitely a beautiful thing! I don't want to bring down the theology because it has brought me to where I am and is very interesting but like Davo said it "pales into insignificance in relation 'realised redemption".



Maybe in a different context? If you have just told someone close to you that you don't like strawberry ice cream, and they stopped talking to you because they were so offended, would it be your fault? They will make their own decissions - they control them. What you do does not 'make' them be or react the way that they do. Sure there's that raw emotional first reaction that is more about what we're used to, but from there it is up to us to take the wheel and drive the car.

This is a funny analogy, lol, but would it be my fault? In a way yes, in that if I know that telling them I like strawberry ice cream would cause them to be offended and telling them anyway. No in the fact that "they will make their own decisions", which in this case is heavily negatively influenced by the majority of today's Christians.



If the situation is "case sensitive" then of course you would want to be diplomatic. I wouldn't advise uh, "Look you dumb @#$! people don't go to hell!!" lol!

Lol, I totally agree! I've seen the past consequences of taking this approach. I want to try and approach the topic intellectually and non-confrontationally.



"Monica is not able to say..", is that true? I've met her and she seemed really abled ;). Is she in the same boat as you? Feeling the same ways I mean?

Yeah, we're in the same boat. It's true that she doesn't want to bring this up to her mom because she doesn't want to deal with the "correction" from her or that we should come back to her church so my "error" can corrected by my talking with the pastors. Monica recently mentioned to me that her mom asked if we would like to come to a "end times" conference that the church was having so I could have less confusion in understanding the end times. This scenario is probably similar for a lot of us here.



What does that mean? That he considers it heresy? That he will stop talking to you? Respecting you?

That I have gone to far because of CU. That he needs to convert me back or Monica and I will go to hell. He might stop talking to and respecting me. But he has definitely become more open to other points of view. He recently developed a friendship with a Catholic (Clint's a baptist) which is a big step for him. He did say that he is on guard if the Catholic tries to convert him, lol. We both used to be quite exclusive with our beliefs.

David

[Amie]

David,

I think I get what you're saying now.. that you aren't "ashamed" as if who you are is bad to you. Rather you hide who you are because who you are may be bad to others.

Let's say that you're right and that you've been the member of an exclusive club for years (maybe your whole life) and once you stop meeting the qualifications to be a member, you may no longer participate. Some members will miss your participation, and will try to "convert" you so that you may again qualify.

How do you define "genuine friendship/relationship"? How genuine are the friendships (relationships) that end when qualifications end? How genuine are they when you pretend to qualify and you don't?

I can tell you first hand that you can continue having a relationship with people in such a circumstance. The relationship will be different though - changed. For a while (again, just talking about my experience) I resisted that change. I wanted my ideal. "This person" should be my "best friend" ("mother", "sister", etc) and "this" is how a best friend (etc) relationship "should be". I was arguing with reality and fighting for my ideal in some cases, hurt the people around me who really did know me and love me as I was.

"The ideal" as per family was something I got past sooner than with friends, and I mourned for what I wished those relationships were - because they were not what I wished for, imagined, held out for, and they were not what they "should be".


a way yes, in that if I know that telling them I like strawberry ice cream would cause them to be offended and telling them anyway.

Why would your preference and like offend a person? I mean, if I didn't like strawberry ice cream, I wouldn't take it personal if you did unless I ____?


That he needs to convert me back or Monica and I will go to hell. He might stop talking to and respecting me.

Coming from where your friend may be, I can understand his concern for your immortal souls. It isn't okay to try and control another person even if you believe that way (and I am not innocent of that wrong-doing myself in my past). If they change just to shut you up, out of fear, etc, they wouldn't truly be "saved" anyway. It's a personal thing.

You can choose to accept your friend for who he is also, and accept the changed dynamic in the relationship. It sucks in my experience because it's a loss. At the same time, it's already a reality, it's just not openly a reality yet.

"Correction" demonstrates the belief that you are in need of guidance, that the person correcting has the right answer, and disrespect for the person's decission. Sharing opinion and concern is not the same as "correction". As well, sharing opinion and concern usually don't involve coersion and manipulation.


Monica recently mentioned to me that her mom asked if we would like to come to a "end times" conference that the church was having so I could have less confusion in understanding the end times.

As if you have confusion.

I hope that you'll consider reading over this: http://eqi.org/invalid.htm. How does it strike you?

Love ya,

Amie

[Paige]

Hey, I just wanted to "pop in" here and say that I've really benefitted from the conversation. Don't know if I'm at all ready to just go to certain people right now and blurt out all I know (LOL!), but I'm identifying some underlying fears I may be having (in my case, anyway).

I have been able to be the most honest about my beliefs with 2 classes of people. 1. Those I feel most unconditionally accepted by and 2. Those I could really care less about how they see me.

So, for me, it is boiling down to facing a fear of rejection from those who don't love me unconditionally and my desire to have their approval.

Addendum:

After thinking about the above, there is one more point to consider. I also feel I could tell certain people, but know full well that this would bring on a debate. After seeing all the debating going on on the internet, and seeing how it has almost never unconvinced the convinced (or vise versa); I have come to the conclusion that that might not be good thing to devote my time and energy to right now. Does this make any sense?

Paige

[David Timm]

Amie, thanks for the great feedback!


How do you define "genuine friendship/relationship"? How genuine are the friendships (relationships) that end when qualifications end? How genuine are they when you pretend to qualify and you don't?

Not very genuine. This is a very good point!:)


Why would your preference and like offend a person? I mean, if I didn't like strawberry ice cream, I wouldn't take it personal if you did unless I ____?

hated those who like strawberry ice cream or thought that the message of those who like strawberry ice cream is spiritually dangerous? :biglaugha:


Coming from where your friend may be, I can understand his concern for your immortal souls. It isn't okay to try and control another person even if you believe that way (and I am not innocent of that wrong-doing myself in my past). If they change just to shut you up, out of fear, etc, they wouldn't truly be "saved" anyway. It's a personal thing.

I totally agree!


You can choose to accept your friend for who he is also, and accept the changed dynamic in the relationship. It sucks in my experience because it's a loss. At the same time, it's already a reality, it's just not openly a reality yet.

I do accept him for who he is and would accept the change, hopefully loss would not be involved. I'm not longer into trying to convert people to believe as I do but I do want to be honest with them. Contributing is so much better than converting.


I hope that you'll consider reading over this: http://eqi.org/invalid.htm. How does it strike you?

I'll check it out soon and get back to you on it.

Paige wrote "I have been able to be the most honest about my beliefs with 2 classes of people. 1. Those I feel most unconditionally accepted by and 2. Those I could really care less about how they see me."

For the most part I feel the same way.

"After thinking about the above, there is one more point to consider. I also feel I could tell certain people, but know full well that this would bring on a debate."

This is also a good point and like you said debating is usually futile. In my ideal situation, in respect to sharing, I would like to share without any debating or attempts of conversion in any manner.

Love ya'll,

David

[Amie]

After thinking about the above, there is one more point to consider. I also feel I could tell certain people, but know full well that this would bring on a debate. After seeing all the debating going on on the internet, and seeing how it has almost never unconvinced the convinced (or vise versa); I have come to the conclusion that that might not be good thing to devote my time and energy to right now. Does this make any sense?

Are you saying that you want to tell someone but are holding back because it would bring on a debate? If you are.. if they react by trying to argue, you do not have to participate in the argument. If you don't debate them, though they may try, then you only get everything you want: You tell them how you feel/what you believe, and you are not in a debate.


I do accept him for who he is and would accept the change, hopefully loss would not be involved.

It was a loss for me because of the change. I really lost my ideal of them, heh.


I'll check it out soon and get back to you on it.

Looking forward to it :). Thanks for checking it out.

Amie

[backtothefuture]

I have not had to worry anymore about sharing anything with my family. Parents, siblings etc. They have never stepped foot in a church and have never grabbed on to any form of spirituality. Actually finding my fulfillment views, took a real burden about this off my shoulders. I was so guilt ridden that I hadn't "brought anyone to Christ" in 40 years!
Most of my friends have come out of a very Fundamental Evangelical background. Some don't want to hear any of what I have to say, so I don't say anything. But my best friend of 15 years has another friend that has become a universalist, so we have had some really good conversations in the past year especially. Since I am not trying to convert anyone, its really just nice to talk and get one another's thoughts on where we all are or are not in our spiritual journey.
I have found personally, that this journey I have been on has not happened overnight. So to just come in and say, I don't believe that anymore, kind of goes right over people's heads. I have just slowly as I have learned tried to share with those who are interested. If not, then no big deal.
Blessings,
Nancy

[David Timm]

Well, I have great news! :) I gave Clint my article and talked to him for awhile about my Christian Universalism and he took it very well. He is even excited about it and eager to finish reading what I wrote to see if it makes sense. I feel somewhat silly for making such a big deal about telling him.

David

[Paige]

Thats very exciting to hear!:clap2: :clap2: :clap2:

[Amie]

Well, I have great news! :) I gave Clint my article and talked to him for awhile about my Christian Universalism and he took it very well. He is even excited about it and eager to finish reading what I wrote to see if it makes sense. I feel somewhat silly for making such a big deal about telling him.

David

"Making a mountain out of a molehill" was on the list of phrases that folks use to invalidate others or themselves ;).

It was important to you doggonit, and I'm glad that you're relieved now. Looks like in this case that "what is" turned out kinder than your story.

If only things will turn out so well with the in-laws. :)

Amie

[David Timm]

Thanks everyone! Clint called me today and we talked for almost 2 hours and he is very interested and has a lot of questions. If he desires to study this further I encouraged him to understand covenantal eschatology better first by watching "The Spirit of Prophecy" DVD (which he has been borrowing for over a year). He sounds like he really wants to watch it now.

David

[davo]

Hey David that is great news -- somtimes it is a matter of timing, and lots of it, and as always "relationships" that show that "doctrine" isn't the key, but believing in people is.