View Full Version : aion/aionios
Thank you all for being here. The fellowship is great! I also appreciate your scholarship.
I have a question about aion/aionios. Do you agree with the following?
“The inspired Scriptures never speak of eternity. They describe nothing as eternal. They contain no term which in itself bears our time sense of everlasting. As eternity is not a subject of revelation, our present object is to discover how and when this unscriptural term gained entrance into theology, with most disastrous results.” “How Eternity Slipped In” by Alexander Thomson, http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/thomson/HowEternitySlippedIn.htm
Paige
10-07-2006, 10:24 AM
Lynn, I'm not sure I would use the word "never".
In regard to God, I believe He is described as having neither beginning nor end. In that sense, eternal has a distinctive quality that we humans don't have and even have trouble comprehending.
I do agree that in most cases, we have read and interpreted into the scriptures a meaning to those words that the writers probably did not have in mind. I remember hearing quite often that the "soul is eternal", and that is why it will end up either in heaven for eternity or hell. Just thinking about that for a bit causes me to realize that if that is true then the soul has no beginning or ending. This would make it God, correct? So, God would be sending Himself to hell? Preposterous!
Anyway, I don't know if I've answered your question. Hopefully others will weigh in for some clarity, lol.
Paige
Lynn,
In Genesis 13, Abraham is told that his descendants will have the land (in the Greek LXX) "aionos."
In Mat. 24:3, the disciples ask when will be the completion of the "aionos."
I believe that should settle it. But only for those who accept the LXX.
JL
Barry
10-07-2006, 05:38 PM
Sientific mind yes. From Disneyland to boot! Surly that will indeed settle it! LOL (just pulling your chain bro)
Seriously JL's point is not to be ignored IMHO.
Paige also has a point that is not to be easily dismissed.
There is a perpetuity in scripture IMHO. I believe the new age is unending. I believe the word of God is forever.
I think that history's record is permanent.
Therefore "the worm never dies"
Judgment becomes historical and so creates a permanency that is not erased.
On the other hand there are very good arguments for the fact that an "evergreen tree" is only green for as long as it lives.
There is much to be explored here IMHO.
Barry
Hi Lynn, for sake of writing too much I also have "some" thoughts on this one [HERE ( http://pantelism.com/EternalAndTheQFactor.htm)]
Thanks for the great responses. I really appreciate your feedback because I don’t know Greek. Davo, your site is a real ministry.
Another question: what do you think of the following? On tract?
“That’s great. As you have seen, there’s much controversy about aion/aionios. Does it mean age or does it mean eternity? Actually in a way, ‘age’ and ‘eternity’ are opposites, if you think about it. If I were to say to my lovely wife, ‘Angela, I’ll love you for eternity.’” Will lifted her hand, which he was already holding. “Would she smile as sweetly, like she is, if I were to say instead, ‘I’ll love you for an age’?”
Angela, playing the part, pulled her hand away, scolding, “Will, I’d wonder when that age would end!”
Will put his arm around her. “That’s right.” He turned to the rest of the group. “As Angela undisputedly agrees, the two statements are not synonymous. ‘Age’ is not ‘eternity,’ actually the opposite because it could end (Matthew 13:39, 40, 49; 24:3; 28:20; I Corinthians 10:11; Hebrews 9:26.). So it’s incorrect for translators to translate aion/aionios as ‘age’ and ‘eternity’ both. Aion/aionios should never be interpreted eternal but just eon or age. Did I mention that Young’s Literal Translation is a version which does a good job here?”
Lynn, that quote is a nice “strawman” but it doesn’t take in the account that God’s promises transcended the ages. The first promise of redemption of man was given in Eden, several ages came and went before it was fulfilled. The coming and going of the ages has no affect of God’s love for us.
Today’s church has put so much emphasis on “eternity” that they have forgotten the here and now. If you look at how God guided Israel the importance was having a relationship with God, others, having children to carry on and caring for the land so it would sustain them. That also carried on through several ages.
Whatever “eternity” is God will take care of that, IMO our concerns should be of today and what is in reasonable sight.
Ps 90:2
2 Before the mountains were brought forth,
Or ever You had formed the earth and the world,
Even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.
NKJV
Isa 41:4
4 Who hath wrought and done, Calling the generations from the first? I, Jehovah, the first, and with the last I [am] He.
YLTIsa 41:4
John 8:56
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
NKJV
Lou, Psa 90:2's "from everlasting to everlasting" says perfectly what I was saying in my article about Antiquity < = ETERNAL = > Perpetuity -- I'll have update it :) , thanks.
Lynn,
I see the romance rather like the husband telling the wife that he would establish her at the end of the age, and his love for her will have no end.
23 ¶ He diminished my strength in the way; He shortened my days.
24 I said, O my God, do not take me up in the half of my days; Your years are through the generation of generations.
25 Before time You founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
26 They shall perish, but You shall endure; yea, all of them shall wear out like a garment; You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed.
27 But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended.
28 The sons of Your servants shall dwell, and their seed shall be established before You.
31 And behold! You will conceive in your womb and bear a Son, and you will call His name Jesus.
32 This One will be great and will be called Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob to the ages, and of His kingdom there will be no end.
6 For a Child is born; to us a Son is given; and the government is on His shoulder; and His name is called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 There is no end to the increase of His government and of peace on the throne of David, and on His kingdom, to order it, and to sustain it with justice and with righteousness, from now and forever. The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts will do this.
She and He as one are unending, their offspring increasing literally forever.
Amie
Thanks for all your great responses and for helping me understand. :confused:
Are you saying that aion/olam can mean eternity?! From my reading I understand these words to mean only “age.”
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' (YLT)
2 Thessalonians 1:9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, ' (YLT)
Hi Lynn. Technically speaking God is the Lord of every age -- one age ends and another ensures and there isn't nor has there ever been or will ever be "an age" that He is not Lord over; so in that sense His lordship is ageless as according to OUR western notion of being "eternal". Humanity fits within its respective overlapping ages, whereas God is Lord over all of them. So for mankind from man's perspective "eternal" always fit within that which for man is always before or beyond.
When lovers say to each other "I love you forever", though eternally true, has obvious time constraints.
Barry
10-08-2006, 11:01 PM
Thanks for all your great responses and for helping me understand. :confused:
Are you saying that aion/olam can mean eternity?! From my reading I understand these words to mean only “age.”
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' (YLT)
2 Thessalonians 1:9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, ' (YLT)
This may be true Lynn. However it is clear that "something" would not be forgiven them, in that age or in the one to come.
My approach is a bit different than trying to limit the time frame. IMHO it is a question of covenantal identity and history.
The old covenant man is forever destroyed historically. The embarrassment or shame is therefore historically permanent.
This is important if the identity of the old covenant man is one that is "egosentric".
Like saying "the smoke of their torments rises to the age..". (not an exact quote perhaps don't have a bible in front of me). This is "historically permanent".
What happened to the old covenant man will never be forgotten.
On the other hand God still forgives and life still goes on. But the historical record will always bear witness.
Barry
Lynn,
As I understand it, "aion" and "olam" hold different meanings.
"Aion" in Greek is "age". I would think that the length of an age would depend upon the context.
"Olam" means "beyond the horizon". Context determines whether such a place might be arrived at.
The phrase "l'olam va'ed" typically translated "forever and ever" means "to the distant horizon and again". That can be understood, in my opinion, to mean the same thing as "into the next age".
Context though, is always important to consider imo.
The verses that I referred to earlier read "no end", which is different. In Isaiah 9:7 the phrase ("no end") is translated from the Hebrew word "qats" which means "no cut".
Amie
Barry,
It's my understanding that their not being forgiven in either age meant that they had to endure the wrath of God. That meant that the New Covenant did not apply to them. They will have been "saved as by fire".
Mostly I'm just thinkin' on it more :)
Amie
Barry
10-09-2006, 08:24 AM
Barry,
It's my understanding that their not being forgiven in either age meant that they had to endure the wrath of God. That meant that the New Covenant did not apply to them. They will have been "saved as by fire".
Mostly I'm just thinkin' on it more :)
Amie
Hi Amie,
It is my understanding that they were forgiven their sins but not the historical consequence (Ezk. 16:63). Historically the old covenant man with his city are forsaken in perpetuity (see also Rev. 14:8-11). He will never be brought back but witnessed in covenantal history as forsaken and ashamed (Jer. 23:39-40).
The worm that never dies is a worm that is "looked upon" historically (Is. 66:24). The later part of the verse being the permanency of the shame cast upon the egocentric man on an historical bases.
This was the consequence of the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit. For is was the HS that would transform them into new creatures ready for the new age.
JMO Barry
Lynn, I'm not sure I would use the word "never".
Good point, Paige. That helps. Thank you. :)
Thank you all for the great references showing that God is without end. I agree. Perhaps, then, my quote from Alexander Thomson in post number one refers to a single term not a clause like the one Amy quoted, “Your years shall not be ended” (Psalm 102:27). Perhaps Thomson was saying that, denoting eternality, there is no single Greek word. Aion doesn’t mean eternity. What do you think?
My question regards the punishment. Was it eternal, in that, are they still in agony? No, I think not. That aion in the following isn’t eternal, I’d think you’d all agree.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' (YLT)
2 Thessalonians 1:9 who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, ' (YLT)
Thanks so much for your help.
Good point, Paige. That helps. Thank you. :)
Thank you all for the great references showing that God is without end. I agree. Perhaps, then, my quote from Alexander Thomson in post number one refers to a single term not a clause like the one Amy quoted, “Your years shall not be ended” (Psalm 102:27). Perhaps Thomson was saying that, denoting eternality, there is no single Greek word. Aion doesn’t mean eternity. What do you think?
My question regards the punishment. Was it eternal, in that, are they still in agony? No, I think not. That aion in the following isn’t eternal, I’d think you’d all agree.
Thanks so much for your help.
IMO the punishment was the destruction of the Old Covenant that had become fully apostate. The agony and torment was of those that chose to cling to the Old and rejected Christ and the New Covenant. They were tormented because of their lose of what they loved not an individual burning in hell. Their rejection of Christ left them “outside the gates” or without a relationship with God.
“aion” in its self IMO means “age” or “dispensation” not eternal as we understand eternal.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.8 Copyright © 2012 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.