Spirit and Soul

[Amie]

In my opinion, "soul" in the OT is literally "the person". It can be understood as the metaphorical "heart" and sometimes "mind". The word in Hebrew is "nephesh".

"Spirit" in the OT, whether "rauch" or "nashamah" is "the breath" or "wind". Both things in the mind of Hebrews followed paths (breathing and wind patterns). The spirit.. moves.

In Job 17:1, his breath is corrupt. In Job 19:17 it is strange to his wife. Consider that breath and spirit are the same: His spirit is corrupt, his spirit is strange to his wife. (Can you feel it? I'm about to suggest something contraversial, lol)

By the breath of God mankind was formed (even Job 33:4, Psalms 33:6, etc). Psalms 104:29 reads that God takes away the breath of men and they return to dust - they die (begin to consider Matthew 10:28 if you will).

In Psalms 135:17 there are people walking and talking without breath (spirit) in their mouths (consider "let the dead bury the dead").

Let's say that I'm suggesting (okay I am) that "spirit" is not a thing at all. Let's say I'm suggesting that "you" are "soul" and that which proceeds forth from "soul" is "spirit".

We all understand what the "spirit of Christmas" is. It's the giving that springs forth from feelings of good will.

Ecc 12
6 while the silver cord is not yet loosed, or the golden bowl is crushed, or the pitcher is shattered at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern;
7 then the dust shall return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
8 ¶ Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher, all is vanity.
9 And more than that, the Preacher was wise; he still taught the people knowledge. Yes, he listened, and looked, and set in order many proverbs.

I used to think that verse 8 was a total gear shift from verse 7. What in the world could they have to do with one another? I'll share the whole "dust" theory again for those who haven't already read it:


In many places, dust is not literal, but a state of being:

Gen 18:27And Abraham answered and said, Behold, I pray, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord, and I am dust and ash.

1 Sam 2:8 He raises the poor from the dust; He lifts up the needy from the dunghill, to cause them to sit with nobles; yea, He causes them to inherit a throne of honor; for to Jehovah are the pillars of the earth; and He sets the habitable world on them.

1 Kings16:2 Since I have raised you up out of the dust, and made you ruler over My people Israel, and you have walked in the way of Jeroboam, and caused My people Israel to sin, to provoke Me to anger with their sins;

Job 4:19 How much more those that dwell in houses of clay; whose foundation is in the dust; they crush them before the moth!

Psalms 103:14 For He knows how we are made, remembering that we are dust.

Psalms 44:25 For our soul bows down to the dust; our belly holds fast to the earth.

2 Samuel 22:43 And I beat them as the dust of the earth; I crushed them small as the mire of the streets; I spread them out.

Dust is less than nothing, it is the most humble position. They were formed as clay, and return to dust later:

Job 33:16 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay.

Job 10:9 Remember, I beseech You, that You have formed me as clay; and will You bring me to dust again?

Isaiah 5:24 So, as the tongue of fire devours the stubble, and the flame burns up the chaff; their root shall be like rottenness, and their blossoms shall go up like dust, because they have rejected the Law of Jehovah of Hosts; and despised the Word of the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Dust represents a large number or amount:

Gen 13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

Gen 28:14 And your seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and you shall spread to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and all the families of the earth shall be blessed in you and in your Seed.

Numbers 23:10 Who can count Jacob's dust, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!

Those who are risen out of the dust, are no longer dust. The elders of Israel are described as bowing to the dust (putting it upon their heads):

Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Jos 7:6 And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the LORD until the eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads

Ezekiel 27:30 And shall cause their voice to be heard against thee, and shall cry bitterly, and shall cast up dust upon their heads,
they shall wallow themselves in the ashes:

"Ashes to ashes".

Dust is most definately not always literal, although it most definately is in some places. How then, would it be applied to:

Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed the man out of dust from the ground, and blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The dust to which mankind returns is not literal, but metaphorical, so why would the dust from which mankind is formed be literal?

It is my view, that the serpent in the garden is also human, and that the dust that he "eats" is metaphorical. I don't understand why in one instance it would be corporal, while in two others, it would be metaphorical.

I suggest that in Ecc 12:7 that the "spirit of adam/mankind" returns to God who gave it. What is the spirit of mankind? What showed from humanity's hearts? (rhetorical) Adam/mankind then returns to insignificance (dust); humbled before God.

The spirit of mankind had proven itself adverse (satan) to God. Humanity tried to put itself in a position over God and it seems that God gave it the very spirit to try it. Why? (not rhetorical)

As for the "vanity of vanities" consider that even in the garden it was all about being "as gods". This was about might and majesty - and greed. If mankind were acting as gods, where then was God? Humanity thought it was in a battle of the wills when imo it was God's will all along. The more puffed up humanity became, the more Grace shown.

Back to soul/spirit.. lol! I suggest that no where in the bible is "spirit" a thing... no where. It is character.. it is what a human being (or God) projects.

I was stuck for a bit on "God is a spirit". I was thinking that spirit MUST be a thing, because God IS one. I don't know why it took so long, but I finally put it together: God is love. That is the spirit of God -- love. This doesn't mean that God doesn't exist. He is. Love isn't coming forth from nothing, and neither is anything else from God.

1 Kings 22
19 And he said, Therefore, hear the Word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on His throne, and all the host of Heaven were standing by Him, on His right and on His left.
20 And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab, and he shall go up and fall in Ramoth-gilead? And this one said this, and this one said that.
21 And a spirit came forth and stood before Jehovah, and said, I surely will entice him.
22 And Jehovah said to him, By what means? And he said, I will go out and shall be a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And He said, You shall entice him, and also you are able. Go out and do so.
23 And now, behold, Jehovah has put a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all these prophets of yours; and Jehovah has spoken evil as to you!

The "host of heaven" was understood by the ancient Hebrews as the stars, moon, and sun. We understand that symbolic language, and even if we didn't fully, we have:

Gen 37
9 And he dreamed still another dream, and told it to his brothers. And he said, Behold, I have dreamed another dream: And, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars were bowing themselves to me.
10 And he told it to his father, and to his brothers. And his father rebuked him, and said to him, What is this dream which you have dreamed? Shall we indeed come to bow ourselves to the earth to you, I, your mother, and your brothers?

They understood who the "host of heaven" was. It was not supernatural beings floating around with harps, it was real people. The answering spirit was not a floating apparation, it was a person acting. That person would be the spirit of falsehood in them. He would be the source of their doubt. God didn't just say "okay". If it had been a literal evil entity, it would have entered them and driven them like a car. God answered saying "You shall entice him, and also you are able." The prophets in that story were enticed into lying by someone.

Again, in the OT, "soul" was "person" and "spirit" came forth from "person". Without exception, the word "ghost" in the OT does not stand on its' own. It is "gava" and means "to die" ("give up the ghost"). Once again, there is no apparation, and once again, there seems to be no evidence of life after death in the OT.

Just a quick thought from an older conversation:

Matthew 27:52
52 And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.

I think that they literally rose from the graves. I do not think that they disturbed the ground.

1 Cor 15
40 And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly is truly different, and that of the earthly different;

David looked forward to the resurrection of Christ and it was said to be fulfilled in Acts 2:25-32 at least. David's soul was not left in the grave, though the spirit of mankind would never rise again.

The "Holy Spirit" was a spirit set apart from mankind. It was the spirit of God. And yes, I am still suggesting that the HS was not a "thing". It was that which was sent forth from God. It (He?) was God in action.

The whole point in what I'm saying is not to get a discussion on the trinity going. My point is that no spirit can exist in and of itself. It is the projection of something existant. An "evil spirit" must come from a soul of origin, just as the holy spirit does. Maybe a big part of the lesson in the bible is to point out that that which is holy doesn't originate from us, therefore God must exist.

I'm looking into this because I'm preparing my presentation along these lines... My topic will most likely be possession/demons/the devil (biblical demons and personal demons), and I hope to illuminate what God's presence does for that.

Any thoughts?

Amie

[Dano]

There is a LOT of food for thought here, thanks for sharing Amie

It’s also kind of neat that John 3:8 speaks of “wind” and “spirit.”

John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Here is a quote from, “The Historical Reliability of John’s Gospel,” by Blomberg:
“...this [Jn 3:8] ...based on a Semitic double meaning. The Hebrew ruah can mean either ‘wind’ or ‘spirit’; hence, like the wind, the Spirit blows where it wills (cf. Eccles. 11:5)”

Ecclesiastes 11:5 Just as you do not know the path of the wind and how bones are formed in the womb of the pregnant woman, so you do not know the activity of God who makes all things.

[Amie]

hmmm,

And you say you're only 25 eh?

[Dano]

What do you think a demon is/was? Were these "things?"

Lets say, Legion; "for we are many" ...many what?

They (the unclean spirits) were "sent into" swine... here it cant be the character of the posessed that is sent into the swine :) but i think I know what you're saying. These were spirits of a different realm? They were over-powering the posessed man's soul, thereby making his spirit a quiet voice in a noisy room. I don't know! haha

thoughts?

but then here...

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

John is, in my opinion, talking about people and what proceeds from their mouths.

[Amie]

Dano,

Exactly (lol). We know that many of the Hebrews then did believe in demons (evil spirits). They believed that they originated from a source outside of this plain of existence. The OT calls the demons and devils "false gods" and "strange gods". There is only one God. The Hebrews didn't view the devils and demons as demi-gods like they are seen today - they believed that they were actual other gods. They were called "false" because they weren't real. They were wholly made up in the image of the people that created them. The parenthesis below is mine:

Exodus 32
1 ¶ And the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mountain. And the people gathered to Aaron. And they said to him, Rise up, make for us gods (Elohim) who may go before our face. As for this Moses, the man who brought us up from the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.
2 And Aaron said to them, Break off the rings of gold which are in the ears of your wives, your sons and your daughters; and bring them to me.
3 And all the people broke off the rings of gold in their ears, and they brought to Aaron.
4 And he took them from their hand and formed it with an engraving tool. And he made it a casted calf. And they said, These are your gods (Elohim), O Israel, who made you go up from the land of Egypt.

"Elohim" is one of the names that Hebrews called God. It seems to me that they were tired of waiting on direction from Moses and decided to make a statue for God (Elohim) to come into so they might thank him for taking them out of Egypt (look at vs 4). They really believed back then that gods entered into statues and they worshipped those gods in that way.

The Pharisees were called "of your father the Devil" and their father was said to have killed the prophets. The leadership of Israel eventually does that (kills the prophets), does it not?.. so that they can keep a monopoly on godship? Maybe that is a figure of speech in that they were working to make the words of the prophets mean nothing. I still have questions myself.

Mark 7
15 There is nothing from outside the man, having entered into him, which is able to defile him. But the things going out from him, those are the things defiling the man.

20 And He said, That passing out of the man, it is the thing that defiles the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, pass out the evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 thefts, greedy desires, iniquities, deceit, lustful desires, a wicked eye, blasphemy, pride, recklessness.
23 All these evil things pass out from within and defile the man.

Above seems to describe an evil spirit.

I try and imagine myself making a statue to welcome a god in. The god therein would be 100% a projection of me and my expectations. The idol worship would then be worship of self (adam worship so-to-speak).

2 Thess 2:11 speaks of a "strong delusion" that would be sent to folks so they couldn't figure out the Truth. Could that delusion be that the god that they created (in their image) is the real God?

Matthew 12
24 But hearing, the Pharisees said, This One does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, ruler of the demons.

Beelzebub was/is completely mythical. I don't feel that it is coincidental that he is a bronze bull (like the golden calf). He was also called Baal, and look at this:

Hosea 2
16 And at that day, says Jehovah, you shall call Me, My husband; and you shall no more call Me, My Baal.

God is recorded as saying that they called him "Baal". Demons were other gods and Baal Lorded over all gods in their belief.

Even so, Jesus didn't say "Beelzebub is a made-up statue you bone-heads", he replied:

Matthew 12
..Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to ruin. And every city or house divided against itself will not stand.
26 And if Satan throws out Satan, he was divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?
27 And if I throw out the demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Because of this, they shall be your judges.
28 But if I cast out the demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come on you.
29 Or how is anyone able to enter the house of the strong one and plunder his goods, if he does not first bind the strong one; and then he will plunder his house?

From our present perspective, when the Pharisees said to Jesus that he casted out the demons by Beelzebub, we see it as an accusation. If "Baal" was understood as God by them, wouldn't their thought have been one in awe of Baal? Glory would have been misgiven.

Belief that Baal casted out evil is denial that Baal is also evil as was the spirit that comes from him. The Holy Spirit came from God and God alone, not any Baal. To claim otherwise was to blaspheme the Holy Spirit and call evil good (Isaiah 5:20). To remain in that delusion, was to pay up in Jerusalem and to not receive the forgiveness.

I feel that the man with the Legion was delusional and the delusion was cast into the swine. It's very symbolic in that the OC leadership were called swine themselves (and think back to the prodigal son - he worked to fatten the swine while he starved and wavered).

1 Samuel 16:14 shows that the "spirit of the Lord" departed from Saul, and an evil spirit "from the Lord" troubled him. I don't believe that evil comes directly from God, I think that it came from his creation (us). God in 1 Sam would have caused evil to come upon Saul by departing from Saul - leaving him to himself. It was "from" God, but not directly.

I hope to get deep into the delusional stuff in my presentation. I really appreciate your interacting with me on this. My mind needs the exercise and though the people that I will be in front of are extremely forgiving, I would like to be sure all of my T's are crossed. (And if my theory is wrong and has been wrong, I imagine it is better to learn it here, lol)

Thanks,

Amie

[Infinite Grace]

Hey folks,
I didn't get a chance yet to read Amie's posts (very long, little time), but I read Dano's and wanted to give a little bit of feedback on that. Amie may have said something like what I am about to say, or she may be in total disagreement with me, I don't know - but I will read Amie's stuff soon.

Anyway, I did notice in the latter post, Amie mentioned that in the OT, demons were called "false gods", etc. I am not sure that I agree with that. False gods, idols were said to be "dumb", i.e., unable to speak. Demons can speak, as Dano pointed out they spoke to Jesus.

Personally, I believe "false gods" or "idols" in the OT were those created things that were worshipped by people: trees, weather, sun, moon, stars, etc. Israel worked its way into idolatry, which is why in Romans 1, Paul says that "they worshipped the creature rather than the creator..."

But what we do see of evil spirits/demons in the old testament are spirits at the beckon call of God. God sent an evil spirit to Ahaz so that he would make a decision that would result in his death. God sent an evil spirit to torment Saul (but that torment was temporary, not "eternal"). God sent "satan", an enemy, presumably an evil spirit, to take everything away from Job. The list goes on. These were not false gods, They were evil spirits, sent by God.

Who were these evil spirits then? Were they celestial beings, supernatural; i.e., angels? Or were they dead humans, pre-biblical souls? Or what? I'm not sure exactly. I think that they served a purpose that I am not so sure needs to be served today. Mankind is perfectly capable of screwing things up for themselves without evil spirits' help. Nevertheless, some Christians, even preterists, claim that they have "seen" demonic activity. Was it real, or was it fabricated for a willing audience? Can we be sure? You know, many of the "faith healers" have been shown to be phony (e.g., Peter Popoff), and some are just plain phony without proof (e.g., Hinn). But that proves nothing about demons one way or the other.

I personally am not convinced in there being a separate group of creatures called "angels". I hold to some of the old ideas that angelic creatures are actually dead humans who can traverse from the spirit world to ours for God's purposes (cf. "It's a Wonderful Life" - Clarence). When the bible speaks of angels, most likely it is speaking of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers (e.g., "the angel of the church at Sardis..."). The book of Hebrews speaks of the old covenant being administered by "angels", i.e., messengers/prophets. Moses was an angel/messenger. Isaiah was an angel/messenger. Jeremiah was an angel/messenger. Etc. Now, in the New covenant, Jesus was not just an angel/messenger, he was THE CHIEF ANGEL/MESSENGER, i.e., the Archangel, the One who is like God, Micha' el.

just some thoughts. Sorry I got off on a tangent. I'll get around to reading Amie's stuff and comment specifically on that.

[Dano]

I hope to get deep into the delusional stuff in my presentation.

lol, i like the way you word that


Humm, so the Temple (and all attachments to it) was, in a way, a gigantic baal – God doesn’t dwell in man made buildings anymore than He dwells in statues. And that the Judgment scene in AD 70 was, in a way, an exorcism on a large scale(corporate). "Cast out the bondwoman and her son." I remember tossing this around in my head a while back.

(i'm not saying that a baal had anything in it to be cast out)

[Infinite Grace]

Even more so with the idolatry aspect of it, yes the temple was an idol, but what made it an idol was that Jesus was the Temple. It has been believed by Christians since the Incarnation that now that God's Icon (Jesus) has come, the prohibition of the second commandment has been properly defined. Idolatry is not just "worshipping" something that isn't God, it is worshipping something as if it were God's doing when it is not. E.g., Jesus fulfilled the Law, and became the temple of God. Therefore any who continued to worship at the idol of the Judaic temple were idolators and worshipping the created rather than the creator. In the same way, those today who "worship" the Law are idolators of sorts, for Jesus has fulfilled the Law FOR US. Our Law now is Love, but that is a calling, not so much a command. We are to love as we have been loved by God. We are to forgive as we have been forgiven. To whom who has been given much, from much is required.

[Lou]

Here is my 2 cents.

I see things more in concepts than details. “Demons” are things we add to be righteous before God that God never required. Things such they added to the “law” that was never in the “law.” It had got to the point in the first century that there were sects that wouldn’t even relieve themselves on the Sabbath.

A personal example is there was a time that I went to church for the worship. It was no longer about God. It was about church and the feelings gotten from worship. Church and worship had become my god/demon. A trap of Pentecostalism.

Could it be that some were trying so hard to do right before God that their “righteous acts” had become demons and held them in “chains.”

I agree with Ed most of the time celestial beings and angels were humans.

[Amie]

Dano,

That is exactly what I think. The temple may have been a form of Baal worship even. The power of Baal was cast out. I wonder what power that was. I have often wondered that. How did the OC system/peoples keep God from people? They used the work of God as evidence for the existence of Baal, do you think that could be it? Sometimes I just wonder what kept redemption from being a reality to begin with.

Ed (and all)

The long post does explain how I see "evil spirits". I don't think that a "spirit" is a thing in and of itself at all. It is that which comes forth from someone. I don't feel that "evil spirits" are "demons" or "devils".

Lev 17
7 And they shall not sacrifice their sacrifices any more to goats, after which they have gone whoring. This is a perpetual statute to them throughout their generations.

Deut 32
17 They sacrificed to demons who were not God, to gods whom they did not know, new ones who came lately. Your fathers had not dreaded them.

2 Chr 11
15 And he made stand priests for himself for the high places, and for goats, and for the calves that he made.

Ps 106
36 And they served their idols, and they became a snare to them.
37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons;
38 and they shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan. And the land was polluted with the blood.

In the OT, the word translated "devil" is "shed" and is synonymous with "demon" and "idol". They, along with the word translated "goat" (in the KJV is also "devil") are the strange gods and idols that folks back then were following after and worshipping.

In the NT, the words "diamon", "Daimonion", and "diablo" are translated "devils" or "demons" (plural or singular - same Greek words). If a person was seen under the power thereof, the Greek word is "Daimonizomai". All of these "dias" were understood to be gods that brought physical and mental infirmities upon people. They are also known as "false accusers"
In both the OT and NT, "demon" and "devil" are syonymous.

John 5
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father; there is one accusing you, Moses, in whom you have hoped.

The body of Moses were the accusers.

Rev 20
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the old serpent who is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

The above reads that "dragon", "serpent", and "satan" are synonymous. The "dragon" gives the beast of the sea of Rev 13 power, and the false prophet spoke like a dragon (the false prophets of Old Jerusalem did not actually rule Israel - the just spoke as rulers).

In the OT, Pharoah was called "dragon" (Eze 29:3) and the King of Babylon "dragon" (Jer 51:34). "Dragon" is imo, "tyrannical ruler". Interestingly enough, Daniel 8:21 describes the King of Grecia as a "rough goat". Esau is "a hairy man" and Jacob donned a goat's coat to deceive his father and receive the blessing. All of these things are synonymous with whomever was in power - people - specifically kings and rulers.

Over and over and over again Numbers reads "one kid of the goats for a sin offering".. just one.. "of the goats" (one who had been head/ruler of Israel). Different heads of Israel were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medes-Persia, Greece, and Rome (hmm, seven..).

Anyhow, when Israel was captive to various 'heads', they took on that city's various beliefs, becoming a god "whore".

I agree Lou, it was and is all about concepts. Illness and emotional instability actually strengthened the person's belief, escalating their suffering - validating the delusion.

There seems to be a connect with "demons" and physical and mental illness in the OT. When they were cast out, people were physically healed. A person in a wheel chair ie, wouldn't remain in the wheelchair suddenly free from an inner presence. That person will have gotten up and walked - that being the release from the devil.

If an "evil spirit" is "a spirit of evil" like in the OT, then their healing would have precluded the realise. "Wow! I can walk again, Jesus is Lord!" would be the evidence that the spirit of evil had left them.

One definition of "spirit of evil" back then would be "one who believes a god can possess them". It is evidence that they believe in other gods and were caught up in idolatry.

The experiences that people have had with demons were very real, and there are real reasons that they've had them. The fact that people experience demons does not evidence those experiences as supernatural.

Just look at how folks from different cultures who do believe that their experiences are supernatural view one another's experiences. Some native americans believed (and believe) that the spirits of animals possessed them. A Christian who believes in the supernatural may count witnessing the possession of a person by a demon as real, but they will scoff when they witness a person being possessed by the spirit of an eagle. If they're argumentative, they'll all get into whose experience was real.

I believe that all of their experiences are real - none of them are supernatural however.

Amie
ps- I agree with Ed's take on angels.