Stealing Jesus

[Amie]

I really enjoyed reading "Stealing Jesus: How Fundamentalism Betrays Christianity" by Bruce Bawer. I recommend this article for a good glimpse at what you will read: click here (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3818/is_199810/ai_n8810635)

:9_cool: Amie

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
I love to read and this sounds right up my alley. My daughter is a librarian here in town and I am going to request this through the lending library. I will let you know what I think after I read it.
Aime, Have you ever read any of John Shelby Spong's books? Why fundamentalism must change or die, I think is the first one I read about 5 years ago. That really got me thinking.
Blessings,
Nancy

[Amie]

Nancy,

I have not read any of Spong's writing, I'll google it and preview some if it will allow. (You can do that sometimes at amazon.com)

I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Hey Aime,
Started reading Stealing Jesus. I am savoring it, taking it a little eveyday. I read so fast and this is so good.
I didn't know if I should laugh or cry in the beginning. When the Author is talking about his childhood. A Catholic Grandma with a Crucifix and a Protestant grandma with bibles and tracks. The Protestants kids yelling at the Catholic kids, that they were going to hell. The Protestant kids yelling at the Jewish kids that they were going to hell. He was I think he said in a Lutheran school, but they had days off because there were lots of Jewish kids in the area. Anyway, I think of all the stupid and mean things over the years, I thought I was doing in the name of God. Also, how our culture plays into so much of things. I am in my 50's and remember so vividly that the Catholic kids on our street were treated like they were from another planet. We never played with them or anything. Anyway, I am really enjoying the book. I am so thankful for Grace.
Nancy

[Amie]

Nancy,

Thanks for letting me know your thoughts. I'm very interested in what you think as you go. I said some pretty harsh things when I was legalistic as well.

I said once before that I feel that Grace is something that we're born knowing. Something drives it out of our fields of vision. The most legalistic people that I had ever known (including me) could never say with confidence that God would condemn someone who never had the opportunity to hear about him. They and I would say that they trust that God is fair.

I feel that answer comes from that Grace that was buried inside us. We knew on some level that it wasn't about laws.

I want to read that Spong book in the future (Amazon is allowing peaks into that one). What I read sounded just like what Brian McLaren has been advocating. Hasn't Spong been saying this for years? My interest is really peaked though, I wonder if I can find it at my local library.. hmmm..

Amie

[backtothefuture]

This author even mentions Spong on the back of his book. I got all of his books at the library. Do you have what we call in interlibrary loan? Having a daughter as a Librarian sure helps a mom like me who loves to read.

I think we are also all born with grace and its Christianity that ruined it. I don't mean that in a heretic way. For the last 2 years, many times I even told God, I don't want to be called a Christian. There is so much pain and evil associated with the name. Not in everything, but in a lot of things.

I was reading last night in the book about the Scolefield reference Bible. Don't know if I spelled it right. We use to have one. Heck, I grew up in Wheaton IL. Wheaton College, everyone had one. And its all so one sided.
Somehow, I personally just think politics and greed has played so much into what "Christianity is today" I sometimes sit in my big rocking chair and just wonder what God must be thinking. Did he know things would really turn out this way.

Part of my grief was the shame I felt at my own actions as a Christian. I know about grace now, and hope I can go forward making a difference.

John Spong really opened my eyes up to the way we treat homosexuals. I have never been a mean person, but went right along with the fundamental right about it all. I remember after reading one of his books, feeling like a big burden had been taken off my shoulder. I didn't have to not like anyone anymore.

I always thought I was such a conservative. But once I started learning about fulfillment and grace, I realized there was a bit of a radical underneath. Someone who wanted to start saying, hey wait a minute, thats not true.

Anyway, just rambling now. I will catch up later when I read a little more.
Blessings Aime.
Nancy

[Amie]

Do you have what we call in interlibrary loan?

I am assuming not since I don't know what it is, lol. What is it? :)

Amie

[Amie]

Scratch that Nancy, I see on the website that they do :).. sorry

[Infinite Grace]

I was just searching Spong at Amazon.com and read a few reviews of readers. Most were quite interesting, but unfortunately, it is ruined by those who see a demon under every rock. In this case, I am not speaking of fundamentalists who think that liberals are demons, but the "progressives" who congregate around Spong, and unfortunately McLaren, and like to spew forth venom against THEIR brothers and sisters in Christ who ARE Republicans.

It is my hope that I could get past this problem and read Spong, as well as McLaren, but folks that like to make their venom-filled reviews lauding Spong's works are a turn-off to me. Hypocrisy is too light a word for someone who damns fundamentalists for being too judgemental. It reminds me of Bob Dole's ridiculous comment during the 1996 Presidential campaign: "Pat Buchanan is INTOLERANT, and I won't TOLERATE that..." Bob Dole was just as intolerant as Mr. Buchanan, he was just "nicer" about it.

If we are going to be judgmental, then let's let our enemies be judgmental as well. It is sad that so many liberal Christians consider their conservative counterparts to be enemies...Hmmm, makes me think about my post on Love and Hate...

[Amie]

Ed,

Whether or not folks attack their polar opposite, there are things aside from that to be gained from each point of view. Someone once said something like "eat the chicken, spit out the bones". Spong sounds like a source for a lot of chicken :)

Amie

[backtothefuture]

I have a friend a long time in AA and I love one of their sayings, keep what you like, and get rid of the rest. For me, who loves to read and learn, there is usually something I can come away positive with, no matter who or what the person or book or speech is all about.
There are things that Rev Spong wrote about that I didn't necessarily personally believe, but he was the first to start a spark in me that led me on a search. Same with a lot of the Preterist sites I first went to. It was a door opening for me. I still think his books are worth reading.
Also, Philip Gully.(not sure of his spelling) His books are great and he believes in universal salvation I believe.
Nancy

[Infinite Grace]

Nancy and Amie,
Yes, I agree. Spong is a favorite of many out there. Often times extremes can help to define reality in a roundabout sort of way. E.g., the environmental movement, as Amie has heard me say often, is largely ignorant of true science. They are manipulated by "scientists" who have either an axe to grind, or an agenda to be funded by taxpayer money. However, thanks to the extremes of the environmental movement, we have found new and innovative ways to clean up the environment, produce things with less waste, recycle in cost efficient ways, etc. Healthy economic policy was found to counteract the propaganda of the enviro-left. In the same way, Spong can be a springboard for saner discussions regarding scriptural "inerrancy," "infallibility," etc. Also, men like Spong have done wonders to help some of us get over our hatred of certain groups, like homosexuals.

[backtothefuture]

Hey Aime,
I have to admit that this book is now making me feel a little heavy hearted. When you realize the history of religion, especially in this country. How it eventually grew into Fundamental, the Pentecostal stage first brought about in the 1920"s and now reading about Pat Robertson. Makes me wonder what is after Universal salvation and infinite grace. Are we just the next generation to think of something else along the way. How much is our culture and the fact, that so much information is available today about every kind of belief play into the way things are changing. In the early part of the 1900's you had the tent meetings and radio. Those were about the only things available accept church to learn. Anyway, reading about Pat Robertson, really just makes me sick. But 25 years ago, I didn't feel that way. I guess I am wondering, when do people like me, stop searching and just start believing and stay with that. Also, I have wondered on my own this year, just what drew me into legalistic churches. Was it an escape from thinking on my own, was it suppose to prove to myself that I did believe in something?
Anyway, just updating you.
Have a nice weekend.
Nancy

[Amie]

Nancy,


Are we just the next generation to think of something else along the way.

I think I can relate to what you are saying. I feel that way from time to time in certain situations. Like, as a ministry (WomenBeyond), how do we get the message out without becoming just another "something else". Could I write Oprah, for example, about this view without sounding like a salesperson? I tend to fall back on the understanding that this is not a doctrine to sell people (though I wish so much that folks felt as free as I do!), it is a way of life.

It's a way of life that has been increasing outside of the spotlight along the way. It began long ago, Romans 5:20 reads that where sin abounded, Grace much more abounded.

I don't see it as something that will match the media-Christianity of today. Grace doesn't require a doctrinal teaching over radio and TV airwaves, it will never have it's "Pat Robertson".

Grace is feeding the hungry, it's cleaning the air we breath, it's improving personal relationships, etc. The world is steadily improving and that can be credited wholly to Grace imo. For even a legalistic church to cloth a naked person, Grace must exist.

The contrast between Grace and Law to me, is like contrasting the life of Mother Theresa and the life of the Pope. She was content not to be in the spotlight and not to be mainstream because that isn't what Grace is about.


I guess I am wondering, when do people like me, stop searching and just start believing and stay with that.
I for one will never stop seeking. I will never get my diploma and will never graduate. I am ever the student. I learn daily how to deal with differences, how to be more loving, and how to be a better friend among other things. I am still 'becoming' who I am, which is what I think life is all about.

I suspect that you and I have those things in common (?), as well as the frustration that comes on the days we wish we had all of the answers.

Love,

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Aime,
That was such a sweet answer. I have a best friend of 15 years named Suzi. Its seems that we are always ending our daily conversation with "we have no answers" And yet, we have both come so far on our journey as you have.
Maybe its because I am so weary that "religion" just does not interest me like it use to. God interests me, but not the other. And Sometimes, just to be honest, (no offense to anyone) I get off of these kinds of forums and wonder if everyone here, has been just as wounded as me. Still searching for something. Still trying to be and do something different.Looking for the right answers. I am probably not making any sense now.
I wanted my kids to have a faith, because my family accept for me, has never even stepped inside a church. I wanted my future grandkids and their kids. But now, don't think that will ever happen like I thought anyway. I want them to be kind and loving, and yet, I don't want them to get hurt. But that is part of life.
Oh well, totally different subject! Off to a wedding and then will continue on in the book tonight.
Thanks,
Nancy

[Amie]

Nancy,

Yes, others have been just as wounded as you by religion. Many of the men in my family were Church of Christ preachers, and a great deal of my family members were CoC adherents. The doctrine teaches that women are second best and not even allowed to speak in church. I wasn't even allowed to pass a note to ask a question!

I was looked down upon because I only owned one dress (always was pretty tomboy). I wasn't allowed not to wear a dress to church. The last CoC I tried attending, I stopped at three visits because I only had one dress and a skirt and was running out of options!

As well, I was largely ignored and frequently dismissed to the "kitchen with the women while the men talk bible". People within that denomination weren't even interested in knowing who I was as a person because who I was as a woman was already defined by their doctrine - and that is all they needed to know.

The issue of how one dresses isn't just CoC. A friend of mine's husband is Catholic. She attended a service with him and the Priest began scorning attendees in the pews for the way they were dressing to church. He asked them, if they were in a group, and some well-dressed people were in a group, and Jesus returned (;)), who would Jesus talk to? He was shaming them and trying to make them feel shame before God and Jesus!

I have attended many churches throughout the years. There were many good things found within the walls of each and every one of them, but in my experience none of the good outweighed the bad. (Until the recent exposure I had and talk about in the "testify" thread)

I rarely attended church, but saw the same stuff in all kinds of denominations - shame filled messages, and control through fear. I didn't have to attend church to experience spiritual abuse by the Christians that did.

Out of all of it, it was hardest for me to overcome my feelings of shame for what I put other people through.

My sister's best friend died in '97. They had been friends since Elementary school and were inseparable until their adult years. They grew apart because of a tiff as many of us do, and my sister was left feeling the horrible guilt of not mending fences before her friend died. She never got to say she was sorry, taking for granted that her friend would be alive for a lifetime. (Don't we all do that sometimes?)

Anyhow, I attended the viewing and funeral as well. I believed that she was "in Heaven" (because of the fulfilled view) and found strength in that to give others comfort. That was also when I believed that the White Throne Judgment was ongoing and happened after death. I believed that those who had not been fully immersed baptized would be cast into a spiritual Lake of Fire (I don't believe any of this now).

I assured my sister about her friend's fate, but I was scared beyond description for my sister. She was 100% secular - much more so than me. I warned her and scared her. Her friend had not been in the grave a week and we were rushing my newly endoctrinated and fearful sister to the nearest lake for baptism - I was relieved, proud of her, and puffed up in myself.

My poor baby sister (it won't matter how old we get, she's still my baby sister). I thank God for His Grace, because without it I would be hiding my face from him, and everyone.

I want God in my children's lives as well, and get afraid when other children tell them that if they "do this" or "that", that they will go to hell that they'll believe it. I have been coming to terms with the reality that just might happen one day.

God's grace covers the legalistic, though the legalistic life is one of fear and attack (on self and others).

I teach them my "faith", which imo is defined as "where the heart is", and not a religion.

Thanks for listening,

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Oh Aime,
You just made me cry again!! But in a good way. I laid in bed this morning just talking to God and saying, I just don't understand anymore. I am the only Christian in my family. My 85 year old parents, sister and brothers, have never even been in a church. I felt such guilt and shame for so many years that "I didn't bring any of them to Christ" What a looser I thought I was. When I first started to grasp the idea of universal salvation, my first thought was of my parents and they were not going to rot in hell. I felt like a 100 pound weight was taken off my back. I was going over all the things this morning again and telling God how sorry I was. Telling people I had a word from the Lord for them, preaching the fundamental way. Oh, I feel so terrible about those days. I guess I am not quite over my guilt and shame. I really think that is one of the reasons, I felt called to leave the church and have sat in Bagel church for 14 months now. I needed time to process my life and just what God was really all about. I am having a hard time now, trying to figure out what the Bible means to me now. If everything is fulfilled, do any of the verses in the Bible still apply to this time and to me? And what about the bad guys? Terrible people in this world doing terrible things. I don't know where to put that in my brain or how to feel about those things with grace.
We attended a little Pentecostal church for awhile. I made the mistake of waring pants and helping a friend teach a Sunday school class. Boy was I in trouble for that. We ended up leaving of course and I still see some of those woman who I call sister Liz or sister this or that out of respect for their faith, but am so glad to be out of that stuff. I am sorry about your path. But in the end, I guess that is what got us here. This morning I was thinking, am I just numb now, or has God given me another oasis in my life to just be calm and just be. I am thinking for some reason its the later. A new feeling for me. Not to be anxietied about everything, or wailing before God with all the problems of the world. I have not sung my prayers on my guitar for 2 months, nor read my bible much or prayed at all. But it feels ok for now.
Anyway, sorry to go on and on.
Thanks for all your kind posts.
Nancy

[Amie]

If everything is fulfilled, do any of the verses in the Bible still apply to this time and to me?

It isn't written "to" us, but it is here for a reason in my opinion. Consider Ed's "The Face of God" thread. That was drawn from Scripture. There is still a great deal to be learned from the bible. I'm sure that I will never know it all, lol.


And what about the bad guys? Terrible people in this world doing terrible things. I don't know where to put that in my brain or how to feel about those things with grace.

Fire ants are very aggressive, they bite in numbers, and the bites are fairly painful. This is not unlike those "terrible things", right? If I step in a fire ant pile, you bet your bottom dollar that I'm going to remove myself from the harm as soon as I realize that I'm there. I do not judge the ants as "terrible", but I still make a choice to protect myself from harm.

There are harmful people out there, and they are the way they are because of their own sufferings in life. I don't think that they are 'bad', but I wouldn't want to hang out with them, I wouldn't want my children around them, and in some cases, I wouldn't want them around others (protection of society).

For me, Grace gives me the ability to love my enemy, and still make choices based on my personal preference.


Not to be anxietied about everything, or wailing before God with all the problems of the world.

I can so relate! I remember when the calm-quiet began. I found it difficult at first just to submiss to it. It felt like drifting down a peaceful brook - but drifting feels out of control! I realized though, that I was never in control to begin with, no matter how hard I tried. Life is going to be life, I can only control me - which for me meant either letting go and enjoying my trip down the brook, or paddling against the current as I drifted down it anyway.

I am not a perfect person, I have to really work on it at times. Then there are other times that I just don't! (I can be stubborn). Thank God that HE sees me as perfect, so that I am not ashamed of the flaws I (and others) see in myself. I can love me, because God loves me.

Amie
Ps- I think that this is on topic, because the book is all about legalism/freedom

[backtothefuture]

hi,
I did finish the book and maybe thats why my brain is in turmoil. Its so hard to get un-programed to what myself has come out of. So was it god's will that I was in those places, or did I make bad choices. I just don't know.
All I know is that 4 years ago I started thinking differently. Started out at the few preterist places that were around and ended up seriously thinking about universal salvation and my husband has also talked a lot over the years about God creating the world already set to go. Don't even know how to research that.
I personally feel that the Bible wasn't written to us, but for us. Just can't put it all together yet.
I would say now, after reading a lot over the years, and this last book, that legalism just isn't a Christian hang up. Lots of other faiths especially do in-Justice to woman and have way to much control. Maybe and hopefully that will change for our children's children's children!
Blessings,
Nancy

[Amie]

..ended up seriously thinking about universal salvation and my husband has also talked a lot over the years about God creating the world already set to go.

I feel like it may just be both. God created us to live, and we do in spite of ourselves.

I appreciate your sharing so much, especially in this public forum. There are plenty of others (including me) who will learn or can relate to your experiences. Sheez, I can hardly wait until you read another book! lol!

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Aime,
Our daughter who is a librarian in this small town, looked up for me how many books I have read in the 27 years we have lived here. She said their records only went back 10 years. So they had 2,753 books I have read in that time!! You think I would know something by now!!
I was thinking of trying to read that book by Josephus (don't know how to spell it) but had a hard time getting through it once before. But may try again. The interlibrary loan is so great!!
What were your final thoughts on the Stealing Jesus book? Did you like it?
Nancy
Have you read any books by David Benner? I have to check with my friend on the name.

[Amie]

Nancy,

I liked "Stealing Jesus", I recommended it ;). It really helped me in contrasting Law and Love in my own mind. Did you have any final thoughts?

I haven't read anything by David Benner..

Amie

[backtothefuture]

My final thought was, thank goodness I have come as far as I have. In the beginning of the book, I just laughed,because I saw so much of me in what the author was talking about. But then near the end, I felt sad, I suppose because of all the guilt and shame I have carried, because of my past legalistic ways. But over all, I had to say to myself, Nancy, you have learned some hard lessons but you have been willing to listen and grow and admit you were wrong about a lot of things. And now starting to see through the eyes of grace is so much more worth while, then seeing through the eyes of law and legalism, so all in all I am glad to be where I am at now.:biggrinbounce:
I love to learn. It's hard for me to keep up sometimes. But I love learning. The Episcopal priest John Shelby Spong and his books opened up a whole new world for me. From there I went forward and am trying not to look back. (at least not to much anymore)
Thanks Aime for the suggestion on this book.
Nancy