Emergent Church?

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
There has been a lot of talk among some of my friends about something called the Emergent Church? Since the only church I attend these days is Bagel church, I was wondering if there was some kind of Reformation movement that I am missing? Many of my friends are saying this movement compares to the Reformation that Martin Luther started.
I looked up the word Emergent and one of the definitions is, coming into view or notice. Arising causally or unexpectedly.
Then I took part of the word itself, "Merge" and looked that up. And part of the definition was to combine, unite, blend.
Since I don't know really anything about it, I was wondering if someone here could enlighten me:rolleyes:
Then I was wondering, do we really need another movement of some sort and does the Bible say we are do for one? Since I am taking the view that everything is fulfilled now, I am kind of lost obviously on this topic? Maybe its just more of a theological way of looking at the Bible????:confused:
My friends seen to think its something big that is happening.
Any help would be appreciated on this topic.
Blessings.
Nancy:biggrinbounce:

[Amie]

Nancy,

There is an excellent article on it here: http://thebannercommunity.com/articles.php?id=29. Brian McLaren seems to be one of the leaders within it and has authored some books. I haven't read any of them but..

Paaiiige :help: , what books would you recommend if any? (I know that she's read some of them.)

Amie

[Paige]

Nancy,

I've read 4 books authored by Brian McClaren. I really liked them all. 3 of them ("A New Kind of Christian", "The Story We Find Ourselves In", and "The Last Word and The Word After That") are a trilogy (of sorts) following the life of a fictional Pastor as he struggles with personal doubt and how to connect with the people he ministers to both inside and outside the church. These books are not shy about raising the tough questions and finding relevant answers to those questions. "A Generous Orthodoxy" is non-fiction, and Brian shares his insights into all the different denominations and traditions that we have today. He talks about the things from each that he finds positive and also the things he sees as inconsistent. The trilogy does more to examine what we call "post-modernism" than the Emergent church.

The Emergent church has come to the fore as a way of ministering to post-moderns, who do not think along the same lines as the people who came before them (moderns). I have found that there is as much criticism as praise out there for the EC. Much of the criticism stems from an erroneous (IMO) view that the EC affirms postmodern thought. What I have found to be more the valid is that the EC has been more instrumental in helping to define what postmodern thought is and how it impacts traditional theology. I have seen many inside the EC movement not just swallow post-modern thought, but also criticize it where it is warranted (as we must also criticize modern thought where it is warranted).

My feelings are mixed on the EC. On the one hand, I feel they have been instrumental in helping those in the church begin to address some of the questions that have been plaguing us for a long time ie., women in ministry, tradition, etc...On the other hand, I see another group who just wants to start new traditions and make them the new litmus test for genuine christianity. An example of this might be that the political conservatives used to be seen as the only genuine christians. Within the EC, I see a swing to the other side now asserting that you're only genuinely following Jesus if you lean left. IMO, both views are equally wrong.

I feel your question about whether we "really need another movement of some sort" is a valid one. Perhaps each of these movements, though, move us (as a group) a little closer to discovering what is genuine and what can be tossed?

Paige

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Amie and Paige.
Amie, I did read the article. Very interesting, but kind of unsettling for me. I feel like this is just another type of "fix" for the church. When I was in a Baptist church 30 years ago, it was the thing to sneak off to the charismatic churches. Then there was the Brownsville experience with the Vineyards I think anyway. I had a friend in England that flew to Canada, just to get in on it.
Maybe, I just don't understand it enough. I suppose whatever it takes to bring people face to face with God. If through this new movement it helps people realize they are already in the presence of God than I guess it can be a good thing.
What bothers me is people want an answer spiritually, and they want it from something or someone other than themselves. I guess sitting in pain and suffering for two years and away from "Church" brought me to a place before God, that no one or nothing else was ever able to do. I had to go there on my own.
Anyway, thanks Paige also for the book recommendations. Like I said, if this works for some, who am I to say its not the way to go down the road.
Sorry, if I seem confused. Its probably because I am:biglaugha:
Nancy

[Amie]

What bothers me is people want an answer spiritually, and they want it from something or someone other than themselves. I guess sitting in pain and suffering for two years and away from "Church" brought me to a place before God, that no one or nothing else was ever able to do. I had to go there on my own.

And you are now blessed to have insight that others may not have. How well would you have received the idea that the answers are within you at the beginning of your journey? Would anything have helped you along?

Amie

[backtothefuture]

In the beginning Amie, Nothing would have brought me to the place where I believed I had the answers all along. That was because I was so filled with darkness and grief that there was like a cement wall between my heart and my head. I could not see for the life of me, beyond the dark.
But......As I started learning about the kind of grace you talk about here, and learning about my spirituality from a fulfillment view, one by one the bricks that had built the wall starting falling out of the wall.
Its been the strangest and hardest two years and yet, the place where I am at now which is peace, was really hard for me to deal with in the beginning. I thought I was going down again, because I was use to always being so frazzled.
What I learned I think the most while sitting in pain and suffering was to wait. It took time for the grief to subside and time to learn some new things.
Wednesday I spent 5 hours in court with my best friend. Didn't and couldn't say a work. Just waited with her. Walked this path with her. Only to be home for 30 minutes when we had to rush my mom to the ER and spent 5 hours in the hospital. At 2 in the morning when I got into bed, I just felt good for such a hard hard day. I couldn't get to sleep and I just talked to God and said, thank you for teaching me to Wait. I was calm all day into the early part of the next day. While they were taking my mom for a scan, I pulled out some fignuton cookies from my pocket and walked the halls and really took notice of everyone in the ER. The place was crazy, and yet I felt really calm. I can relate so much more these days to the verse, "They that WAIT upon the Lord, shall renew their strength"
For me, as the light-bulb moments went off, and the guilt and shame took a hike, the healing started. Never in my dreams did I have the faith to think I would be even sitting here writing this e-mail. That's the miracle for me Amie. That I am here.:biggrinbounce: The other miracle I learned is I am walking face to face. Once that also took hold in my brain, I stopped trying, doing, going, coming, you name it. I was finally just able to be.
Blessings,
Nancy

[Amie]

Nancy,

Your testimony may serve to heal others in a similar situation. Isn't it strange how through grace, our calamity seems to become blessing? (At least that's how it has worked for me)

Amie

[Amie]

Here's a little on the emergent women's group: http://www.emergentvillage.com/groups/emerging-women

In reading over the entire site (well, some here and there - certainly not every single word therein), they sound like a group of people in search of answers rather than claiming to already have all of the answers. I think that's good because folks have focused on problems for a while - why not consider some solutions? The first step in doing that is of course, "conversation". I think that is by in large what it is about.

Amie

[Adam Dada]

I attend an Emergent church gathering (www.livingroomfaith.org), but I am not a member -- I serve that congregation as I do serve many. They're very open to my pantelist views (I caused quite an uproar when I mentioned Christ's parousia occurred a long, long time ago), and they're open to questions, too.

Most of them are Baptists or ex-Baptists, a few are Wesleyans, a few are ex-Lutherans. Mostly younger, with very young children, or post-teens. Good conversations -- good topics. We met at a bar for a Festivus party, it was a nice experience, especially since the host ("pastor"-like) of the gathering used to be a youth group leader 6 years ago at a big congregation in the area (Non-denominational). A lot of bar attendees were actually embarassed to see their ex-youth leader there (having a beer, no less), but it was a fun event.

Most of the people at the gathering are going through a faith crisis -- something I see at every congregation I serve. It is frustrating, because I've been told by numerous congregations to keep my "heresy" out of the conversations I have, so I usually keep my trap shut. Until someone asks me why I'm happy all the time :)

Is it something new? I doubt it. My partner says that she's been churched for 31 years, and every 10 years or so something "Reformation-like" happens, and it either becomes the norm, or it becomes another denomination.

[Amie]

HA! Is that "Festivus for the rest of us"?! That's great!


Amie

[Amie]

Speaking of the openmindedness of emergent folks, a while ago Brian McLaren mentioned "transmillennialism" here: http://www.brianmclaren.net/recommendations.html under recommended "works of theology".

He mentioned Tim King's eschatology in the last paragraph here: http://planetpreterist.com/news-2774.html and he endorsed the back of Tim King's book Furious Pursuit writing:

“If you’re sick and tired of spiritual to-do lists, religious shoulds and oughts, and the self-hatred that comes from feeling unacceptable, you’ll find in Furious Pursuit better news of a better story. Tim King and Frank Martin have given us powerful truth, well-told."

Scott McKnight did as well (isn't he another loud voice among the emergent?), writing:

"The message of this book can’t be stated often enough: God loves us. Oh yes, he does. Furious Pursuit shows us that God’s love is active and vibrant and on the chase for you and me. Others have said this before, but Furious Pursuit takes us one step further."

Amie

[Adam Dada]

Yep, a Festivus for the Rest-uv-us! We even had a pole, feats of strength, and an airing of grievances. Very fun, indeed. Put to shame the typical Churchmas party, that's for sure.

As for the transmillenial question -- no. It seems that most of the leaders of the Emergent Movement are the same power-hungry egomaniacal leaders that just weren't wanted in THEIR protestant/baptist/lutheran churches by those leaders. So they founded their own movement. Reading their blogs is like pulling teeth, unfortunately. And I think I'd rather pull teeth. I feel a little saddened by my brethren who are pulled into that malarky.

[Amie]

I'm sure that you read my post before the edit, and I appreciate the answer. My question actually rang those bells in my own mind and I thought, "eh, why did I ask that?", lol!

I would have loved to have seen the Festivus celebration! How fun!!

As was written in that article that I gave a link to, I would agree that the emergent movement is largley a reaction. However, they are at a decission point and it could lead somewhere positive. One can only hope :)

Amie

[Adam Dada]

As was written in that article that I gave a link to, I would agree that the emergent movement is largley a reaction. However, they are at a decission point and it could lead somewhere positive. One can only hope :)

I'd hope so, but I'm doubting it. Many of the leaders are outright liars, it seems. From my experience, and not in a necessarily judgemental way, I've seen how one of the most popular leader likes to 'brag' about how God blessed "his" congregation with 5,000 visitors in the first week they were open -- with no advertising or marketing. He still fails to tell people that he was mentored, and worked at, a congregation of 20-30,000 regulars. People fall for the sham. Similar leaders like to say they're doing something different, but they're the first to judge the sins of others -- consistently.

When I've posted questions to some leaders' blogs, they were promptly deleted. Let them preach to the choir, I guess -- that's who is mostly listening. Unfortunately it will be just another church fad. Rather than teaching people that the church begins in us, they teach that it is in a building or on a blog or forum. If they taught what Christ taught, though, they'd lose the immense power and wealth they get from their new "revolution."

[Barry]

Hi Adam,
You are clearly an insightful chap. Excellent!

Do remember however that everyone is on a journey. Even the Pharisee!

With the advent of fulfillment, and fulfilled reconciliation, we can embrace even those whom we see as Pharisees reincarnated LOL.

We want some of those whom we see as the "problem" here so we can discuss and open doors if at all possible :). Most of us are not where we were 10 or 20 years ago.

In any case you do bring up some very good points. They are IMHO on the subject of egocentric identity.
This is where value and worth are trying to be proved or established through performance instead of "accepted" and so just lived.

Barry

[Adam Dada]

Oh, I openly welcome those in all beliefs to come and join me in discussion -- unheated, unemoting and friendly. Unfortunately, in MOST faiths, it is a "my way or the highway" situation. I don't presuppose that at all -- although I do believe that those who refute Jesus are just ignoring a very just and incredible provider, but I don't tell them they're "wrong" or I'm "right" -- I do believe that we are moved to Truth if we seek it. I'm still a strong believer in the Spirit (which was a question I was going to ask here, in fact).

For me, my call is open to all believers and non-believers. I, unfortunately, don't get many calls in return ;)

[Barry]

Oh, I openly welcome those in all beliefs to come and join me in discussion -- unheated, unemoting and friendly. Unfortunately, in MOST faiths, it is a "my way or the highway" situation.

I hear ya.
Belief gets connected to identity and self-view. Just as we may feel that we need to defend our honor and esteem, we may feel that we need to defend our faith. This often gets done in less than productive ways, like "my way or the highway", or "you heretic" ECT.

The solution IMHO is to have a belief that it's very purpose is oneness, its very outlook is oneness. A belief in a common value and worth for all. A belief that we are all in this together, even if and when people do not realize it yet. A belief that individual superiority or inferiority is impossible.

What one lands up defending then is love. Building bridges where we can, and setting boundaries where we must. All in hope an increased oneness, tomorrow. Where belief leads to service.

The egocentric view of life creates a mental idol of ourselves that is IMHO very unhealthy to all our relationships.

You mentioned somewhere else about being free, yet doing no harm to others. IMHO this touches on this point.

Once we start becoming free from needing to promote our own false-image of ourselves we can begin to relate to the true image of ourselves. The image of God. "Go and sin no more". [IE. "go in peace your sins are forgiven"]
Just a thought.
Barry