Thinking out loud on a Saturday afternoon.

[Barry]

What are the implications to the fact that everything has been here.

Everything we need has been in front of us all along.
Iron
Steel
concrete
Aluminum
crude oil
glass
even the microchip in its creative sense.

Electricity
The list in unending.

These things have lead to the printing press and then the Internet and soon universal translation (which is in its beginning stages on some online games).
Yes my favorite 3 points that seem to relate to
1) the giving of the law
2) Abraham and the promise given to him (all the families of the earth)
3) Babel.

That is things which relate directly to "knowledge" and how that knowledge interrelates.

The last of the knowledge transitional markers is the knowledge of good and evil.
IMO this is the knowledge of universal consciousness or oneness.
Summoned up biblically as in one body with many members.

We are not so much then simply reversing biblical history (Babel to universal translation). Rather it is matter of knowledge transitional markers.
These markers are present in different forms in the history of biblical eschatology and IMO form a pattern of transition.

The ultimate goal of such things is the arrival to a oneness identity. This relates strongly to the "fall" where the knowledge of good and evil fragmented humanity into ethnicity and sectarianism.

Resulting in a collective mind set of differing value and worth between people and individual and communities. IE, fragmented.
The reversal of this comes as we see ourselves as one with each other and one in God.
Such knowledge or awareness will relate to the old good and evil in that it does explain it as a matter of consciousness. Just as the shadow shows forth the substance. Just as the knowledge of good and evil in Genesis serves as a shadow of that which is covenatal in Heb. 5:14.
And the covenantal is summed up on oneness.

The Internet and the microchip could not be easily predicted. Nor could there affect be predicted.
As such then the, what will bring this last knowledge marker to bear, is even harder to foresee.

The time from Adam to Babel could be pattern time from universal translation (around the corner IMHO), to the last knowledge marker.
The outworking of the new age is not in all ways perpetual.
It may on a larger scale however be cyclic. Wherein the pattern recompenses on a larger scale.

Such a cycle may already be foreseeable as we in the future have to deal with not just what it means to be human but what it means to be sentient.

JMO
Barry

[goinliveinfive]

I've been thinking about this, at least in part, for a while now. I don't think that most Christians reject Preterism over something as cut and dry as Covenant Eschatology or the Parousia or any kind of timeline. I think that they are flat out afraid of what embracing the entire ideology entails.

For starters, in entails closure to their faith. It completes and legitimizes Christianity to a place that is BEYOND faith. It doesn't negate it, it transcends it. We still follow Christ based on what we've read and what we believe based on knowledge but what it boils down to is that no one alive today ever met Him or has any reason outside of faith to believe in Him. But believing Covenant Eschatology also levels the playing field to a degree that makes them uncomfortable.

Secondly, they grow up learning that it is necessary to "Accept Christ" to be "saved." Most people who embrace Covenant Eschatology believe, as I do, that Christ died to save Humanity, not just the rare few who "accept" His gift. I've been involved in a lengthy discussion with folks from my Alma Mater about this as of late and here is how I explain it to them: Those of us who have come to the realization of who Christ is and the magnitude of what He did for us have become PARTICIPANTS in His Grace. We have the privilege of knowing Him and living for Him right here and right now. People like Saddam Hussein may wind up going through a lengthy purgation (at least that's how I read 1 Cor. 3:10-15... there is NO other foundation than Christ therefore it will be that foundation on which EVERYONE'S lives will be built, weighed and judged) but ultimately will wind up as RECIPIENTS of God's grace. There's a pretty big divide between Participant and Recipient but the destination is the same. Most Christians are too egocentric to begin to fathom a love so all-encompassing that God is willing to share his Grace with the self-proclaimed righteous and the outwardly unrighteous alike. When you relay their own doctrine back to them and ask them if Christ died for everyone they'll tell you He did but won't accept that their "conversion experience" was fortunate but not entirely necessary. How does one rationalize following up the belief in a fully-effective Atonement with a postulation of a necessity to then make a decision to follow Christ in order to be "saved"? If The Law of Sin and Death has been nullified and death itself defeated, what does one still need to be "saved" from?

So what was all that long-winded drivel coming to? I think that the biggest threat that Preterism poses to Christians in particular is its ability to unconditionally unite. It is exceedingly difficult to hate when you understand that the person you hate will ultimately see the same eternity you will. When every score will ultimately be even it is difficult to see oneself as superior to anyone else. Trump or tramp, terrorist or pacifist eventually God's grace will prove sufficient for all of them. And if we had stopped to feel superior for a moment or two because we "found Jesus" and the guy who flipped us off because we were driving too slow in the fast lane hasn't, it's humbling to realize that once all his wood, hay and stubble has been consumed he'll have the chance to apologize for it, not that he'll need to. It's not up to us to decide whether he is or is not to be forgiven. He's forgiven, so forgive him. The same goes for Hitler, Mussolini and the 9/11 masterminds, too. That is far too bitter a pill for most to swallow.

Oneness Identity, you say? I like that. And it would appear that the first and most important transitional marker was the Atonement. Why it took 1800 years or so to make it to the next marker is a mystery, though. Any thoughts on why that might have been?

[Paige]

Wow! Great points Joe (at least I think its Joe, right?)!

I always marvel at how some can grasp the message of grace almost instantaneously, while others can't seem to see or believe what you've shared here.

Anyway, thanks for sharing. I don't have any guesses as to why it took 1800 years to make it to the next marker. I'd be interested in what you all come up with.

Paige

[Barry]

It is good to fellowship together Joe.
Good points too.
You said:
"How does one rationalize following up the belief in a fully-effective Atonement with a postulation of a necessity to then make a decision to follow Christ in order to be "saved"? If The Law of Sin and Death has been nullified and death itself defeated, what does one still need to be "saved" from?"
Surly not now saved from the consequences of the consummation of the old age (and its sub-ages within it).
Experiential perhaps saved from the wrath between our ears. From the pretence and facade we have bought into.

You said:
"For starters, in entails closure to their faith. It completes and legitimizes Christianity to a place that is BEYOND faith. It doesn't negate it, it transcends it. We still follow Christ based on what we've read and what we believe based on knowledge but what it boils down to is that no one alive today ever met Him or has any reason outside of faith to believe in Him."
The qualification to be an apostle is that one was an eye witness of the resurrected Christ. Apostleship was designed to last no more than one generation.
The church of today has attempted to practise age-transitional Christianity for about 1900 years when age-transitional Christianity was for the purpose of fulfillment of the old and the bringing in of the new.
And this atempt has been made either believing in some form of continuance of Apostleship or in the theory that such organization could be legitimately maintained in the absence of any real or conclusive central hub of authority (living apostles for whom evangelists who appointed local leaders answered too).
Church history went really wrong and anyone willing to step back and see the history for what it is could see it IMHO.
The persecuted always become the persecutors. And without fulfilled grace preterism if it got big enough would then persecute the biblical futurists and call them heretics who deny the faith. Without fulfilled grace, preterism is just one more cycle of sectarianism.

In agreeance with the thrust of what you are saying there is still a place for Christianity in ongoing history and such a belief still has a transforming potential in humanity. It is the spiritual proof of our oneness through the love and grace of God. The spiritual knowledge of our true identity.
We are probably saying almost the same thing IMO.

You said:
"People like Saddam Hussein may wind up going through a lengthy purgation (at least that's how I read 1 Cor. 3:10-15... there is NO other foundation than Christ therefore it will be that foundation on which EVERYONE'S lives will be built, weighed and judged) but ultimately will wind up as RECIPIENTS of God's grace."
And:
"And if we had stopped to feel superior for a moment or two because we "found Jesus" and the guy who flipped us off because we were driving too slow in the fast lane hasn't, it's humbling to realize that once all his wood, hay and stubble has been consumed he'll have the chance to apologize for it, not that he'll need to."

IMHO my own experiential purgatory is in the realization that my wood, hay and stubble were already burnt up 1900 years ago. Henceforth wasting time and and not participating in who I really am. Living the facade the pretence of a glory of my own. And then knowing full well what that pretence has done to others.
The worst and best punishment that anyone could ever have is being made love-conscious and identity-conscious. See Ezk. 16:61-63
JMO.

You said:
"Oneness Identity, you say? I like that. And it would appear that the first and most important transitional marker was the Atonement. Why it took 1800 years or so to make it to the next marker is a mystery, though. Any thoughts on why that might have been?"

Good point.
My view is to separate covenantal transformation from new age outworking transformation.
Atonement would then in this view be part of the covenantal transformation that new age outworking stands on.
Atonement led to the applied meaning within the transition of the ages that there was neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female ECT.
New age outworking has been moving in this direction as we are seeing a movement toward common equality, common brotherhood, common liberty.

In any case the theory of knowledge transitional markers is derived from looking at the BC backwards compared to the AD forwards in its larger or global view as relates to knowledge when that knowledge interrelates on a large scale.
In this theory there are 3 major markers in our development.
1) printing press. First book printed is the bible. The date of invention corresponds closely in AD terms to it's backward BC counterpart which is the giving of the law at Mt. Sinai.
2) Internet. Which we are now using which has done more for the knowledge of fulfillment than we can yet predict. It's invention corresponds closely to the birth of Abraham in BC terms. It is the promises to Abraham which we now working out.
3) Universal communication. Still in its infancy but beginning. May be linked to Babel for obvious reasons. Through unimpeded intercommunication nothing will be held back. If correct, get ready for a wild ride. The last 50 years ain't nothing yet. This is just around the corner IMO.

The knowedge of good and evil was in BC terms the beginning and so would be the end for outworking, or the end of one cycle. In our terms IMHO and JMO peace on earth and socially comprehensive awareness of our true identity. In the image of God where God has pursued His own image of Himself in human history.
JMO
Blessings,
Barry

[goinliveinfive]

IMHO my own experiential purgatory is in the realization that my wood, hay and stubble were already burnt up 1900 years ago. Henceforth wasting time and and not participating in who I really am. Living the facade the pretence of a glory of my own. And then knowing full well what that pretence has done to others.I believe that sin has been not only paid for but put aside to the point that no one really sins anymore but there are still evil intentions that we carry into eternity which cannot abide in the presence of God. Light and darkness cannot fill the same space. For this reason, I have a hard time believing that Saddam woke up in Heaven with a clean slate. If God is about anything He's about teaching and people would not learn anything by living utterly nefarious lives only to be welcomed into Heaven without the first hint of consequence for how they lived. That's why I believe in purgation. That and the tone of the message in those verses clearly indicates a postmortem assessment of one's life. And while I don't necessarily believe in a place called Purgatory 9and I could be wrong), I do believe in the concept of Purgation so that when we are allowed into the presence of the Almighty, we enter with both GRACE and PURITY.

[Barry]

I believe that sin has been not only paid for but put aside to the point that no one really sins anymore but there are still evil intentions that we carry into eternity which cannot abide in the presence of God. Light and darkness cannot fill the same space. For this reason, I have a hard time believing that Saddam woke up in Heaven with a clean slate. If God is about anything He's about teaching and people would not learn anything by living utterly nefarious lives only to be welcomed into Heaven without the first hint of consequence for how they lived. That's why I believe in purgation. That and the tone of the message in those verses clearly indicates a postmortem assessment of one's life. And while I don't necessarily believe in a place called Purgatory 9and I could be wrong), I do believe in the concept of Purgation so that when we are allowed into the presence of the Almighty, we enter with both GRACE and PURITY.

That is an interesting view Joe.
IMHO there is a lot of merritt to the principles involved. But that is just my opinion. And all views are welcome here at talk-grace. :)

My view thus far is that the change that took place at the end of the age took place comprehensively (both living post-mortem).
Also post-mortem is a very good topic that affects our view. Something that we looked into briefly on some threads here.

In the last few years I have begun to question the idea of waking up in heaven. That too really becomes a lengthy topic.
Not to deny continuance. But it is a different way of looking at life from the dead.

It is good to be here and express our views especially our views as they relate to love and grace and growth.
Barry

[goinliveinfive]

(at least I think its Joe, right?)!It is. :-)

[goinliveinfive]

That is an interesting view Joe.
IMHO there is a lot of merritt to the principles involved. But that is just my opinion. And all views are welcome here at talk-grace. :)

My view thus far is that the change that took place at the end of the age took place comprehensively (both living post-mortem).
Also post-mortem is a very good topic that affects our view. Something that we looked into briefly on some threads here.The fact that people will not experience the "Second death" is what the Atonement took care of; the comprehensive "soul death" which many equate with "going to Hell." I hear what you're saying, too: while it may seem "unfair" for people who committed unspeakable atrocities to share the same eternity with the Mother Theresas of the world it makes sense from the standpoint of Grace. One may wonder why God allows people to prosper at the expense of others while doing every selfish and underhanded thing imaginable so they can be the ever-increasing haves among the ever-struggling have-nots. Why are the meek and the penitent not enjoying steak and lobster every night while the evil ones pick through dumpsters? The very nature of God's grace is evident in each situation; it may not really be about our definition of what's fair (as the brother of the Prodigal Son taught us) and maybe that's a good thing. Still, while many of the things that Evangelicals equate to individuals really apply to judgment of nations, the passage I referenced in Corinthians clearly deals with the individual and because it deals with the individual I believe that it has to be something we have yet to go through.

In the last few years I have begun to question the idea of waking up in heaven. That too really becomes a lengthy topic.
Not to deny continuance. But it is a different way of looking at life from the dead.So how do you deal with the verse in 1 Corinthians (I think it's 1 Cor. 15:50 or so...) that says that we will not all "sleep"? I'd be interested to know how you read that because the way I see it, that means that upon death the soul is quickened (or "wakes up") in eternity.

Am I making any sense at all anymore?

[Barry]

Hey Joe.
You said:
"Am I making any sense at all anymore?"
Yes, very much.
You like everyone here including myself is trying to assimilate a very large amount of information set up against our own feelings, logic, needs and preexisting info and programing.

You said:
"So how do you deal with the verse in 1 Corinthians (I think it's 1 Cor. 15:50 or so...) that says that we will not all "sleep"? I'd be interested to know how you read that because the way I see it, that means that upon death the soul is quickened (or "wakes up") in eternity."

I will need at least 2 days to respond (or more, maybe 3 or 4 times more ) .
However, good question, and maybe (or maybe not), others have something to contribute to this thread.
Also, many other threads here to fellowship on. IE, feel free Bro. meanwhile.
Barry