"soul salvation"

[Laren]

Hello all,

I've been thinking about "soul salvation" or "realized redemption". Seems to me, that God is still choosing who he reveals this to in our earthly lifetime, while others he doesn't, even though covenentally there is no longer anyone in Adam.

What i'm wondering, are all the judgments that happened to apostate Israel in 70 ad, happening to us now spiritually, if God is choosing to bring us to an awareness of his grace.

In other words, there is in my mind/soul, tares (selfishness, self effort) and wheat(mind of Christ) existing side by side; and the tares need to be plucked and burned in the lake of fire, and the wheat harvested and saved. This process of second death/lake of fire to the tare mindset is painful, while the harvesting and growing of the wheat mindset is peace, joy and righteousness.

Seems to me, the natural (the judgment of the old covenant) and the raising of the first fruits to life, is a shadow of the spiritual happening in my mind.

Any thoughts?

thanks.


Laren

[Barry]

Hi Laren
Nice to have you here.
You have bought up some interesting points for sure.

In many ways God is still working in His creation and he uses people to sometimes do it.

You said:
"Seems to me, the natural (the judgment of the old covenant) and the raising of the first fruits to life, is a shadow of the spiritual happening in my mind. "

We could do something like that and call it experiential and then examine what or what that means and doesn't mean.

On the other hand we know that many of the first-fruits lived through into the new age. So whatever continued spiritual growth or even whatever falling back some might of had, would have no baring on what had been done or what they had done.
In other words the world had been overcome and then passed away.

Whatever overcoming they might have continued to do in spiritual growth was then something different.

Whatever is available for us was available for them once the end of the age took place.
And what was available for them could not change the historical end of the harvest. "For the harvest is the end of the age".

Still, there is a sort of working out of what did take place and God uses people in his dealings.

IMHO we can see a little of the difference in what you have brought up, concerning Adam.
Adam was given authority that no one has today. There is no law to transgress and so expel us from the presence of God.
Blessings Barry

[Amie]

Laren,

Welcome!


Seems to me, that God is still choosing who he reveals this to in our earthly lifetime, while others he doesn't, even though covenentally there is no longer anyone in Adam.

That makes sense to me too. I wonder if this revelation is one of theology, or consciousness of the heart.


..are all the judgments that happened to apostate Israel in 70 ad, happening to us now spiritually, if God is choosing to bring us to an awareness of his grace.

I don't think that God continues to judge, but is the creator of reality. That reality definately takes a bite out of my fanny from time to time and sometimes I learn from it ;). I like the connection that you made however and do think that we can learn from their mistakes and our own.


Seems to me, the natural (the judgment of the old covenant) and the raising of the first fruits to life, is a shadow of the spiritual happening in my mind.

I do think so Laren, and I think that "life" is contagious. Humanity will undoubtedly mature - not stop being human - but mature.

Very insightful Laren to say the least. Some people draw the conclusion (an immediate and knee-jerk reaction usually) that if the bible isn't speaking "to" us, that it just can't apply nowadays. Some come into understanding the "for" us, and some don't. In my own experience, I find the "for us" to be more practically applicable to my life than the "to us". Is it striking you that way as well?

Amie

[Laren]

Thanks for the replies Barry and Amie. Maybe I am still hanging onto my old paradigm some, and that is where the battle in my mind is, but it seems to me; that as long as we are flesh bodies, there is still a battle between selfishness (mind of my flesh) and selflessness (mind of Christ). I believe God through the Holy spirit is still conforming me into his image, selflessness, or true love. The difference for me now, is that this "conforming" me is actually a "waking up" to what I already am, in Christ. The problem is I just don't believe it all the time.

Amie, my first reaction to learning fufilled grace, was the same; well what or how am i to use the bible now. It is very hard to quite reading the bible as an "instruction manual", and start reading it as a praise manual; praise for what Christ has done/accomplished.

As far as whether there is no more judging, I still believe there is, or at least teaching/chastening; but this is an internal judging, that still is a process of death to life; death to self; life to Christ. Again, now I see this as internal occuring in the mind.

For me, grace judges us, and it is a good thing. I believe this judging by grace is internal, and leads to greater "realization" of what we already are.

I realize this verse is in reference to the age the apostles were living in, but still think it is applicable

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (for me, this salvation is the realilzed redemption)

Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, and godly ((for me this is an internal teaching, that we should trust Christ for our righteousness rather than self, and love others, and the result is the fruits of the spirit flowing from us), in this present world (for me, this is the world of my mind);

Teaching here is a form of judging in my opinion, or at least maybe i should clarify and say a discipline/chastening or teaching:

G3811
παιδεύω
paideuō
pahee-dyoo'-o
From G3816; to train up a child, that is, educate, or (by implication) discipline (by punishment): - chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach.


It is good to talk and express, sure has been a journey for me. My family thinks i'm nuts.

Laren

[Barry]

Hi Laren
Some great thoughts and questions.

This info we are reading was written 1900 years ago in a different setting and culture.
For example:
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously, and godly ((for me this is an internal teaching, that we should trust Christ for our righteousness rather than self, and love others, and the result is the fruits of the spirit flowing from us), in this present world ;

They were to be delivered from that present evil age.
So there is a large element of Historical understanding in this original setting.
The point being that not only is the setting different we in Christendom have created a new imaginary context and setting for the scriptures.

Had we been aliens from another planet taking a fresh look at these things we would have had a better chance as understanding the original setting because we would not have been looking through 1900 years of creating a new one :)

You said:
"Maybe I am still hanging onto my old paradigm some, and that is where the battle in my mind is, but it seems to me; that as long as we are flesh bodies, there is still a battle between selfishness (mind of my flesh) and selflessness (mind of Christ). I believe God through the Holy spirit is still conforming me into his image, selflessness, or true love. The difference for me now, is that this "conforming" me is actually a "waking up" to what I already am, in Christ. The problem is I just don't believe it all the time."

Some really good point as I see them too.
The difference as I see it is EGO.
I interpret the "flesh" as not the body but the egocentric self-image.
According to the flesh
In the flesh
and such terms refers to IMO the egocentric (man) who had from Adam been endowed with authority.
Hence Paul said, "the princes of this world are coming to nothing". (not an exact quote).

Paul told the terminal generation first-fruits "you are not in the flesh but in the spirit".

Now the that all authority has been put down all are in all. Even if they do not know it. There false idol of themselves has no more authority.
And as you inferred, "is actually a "waking up" to what I already am, in Christ".
Today IMHO this meaning what God has decreed us to be in his image not the pretend image that we may hang onto for a while.

We see this in the transition of the ages in scriptures like this.
"If you lose your soul (egocentric life of the old economy) you will find it (your real identity in Me)"
"deny yourself (the egocentric pretending to be a god to yourself image) and take up your cross and follow me"

In this way we can perhaps bypass the idea that physical bodies are a real problem and look toward being the offspring of God and what that really means.
If the problem is ego then the problem workable. If the problem is physical then there is less that we can do about it.
Since creation is very good IMHO the problem is ego.
Barry

[sarahb]

Laren, I can so identify with this line of thought,


What i'm wondering, are all the judgments that happened to apostate Israel in 70 ad, happening to us now spiritually, if God is choosing to bring us to an awareness of his grace.



Seems to me, the natural (the judgment of the old covenant) and the raising of the first fruits to life, is a shadow of the spiritual happening in my mind.

The verse that says that scripture is not for any private interpertation used to bother me because I would feel like the Lord showed me something concerning myself on a certain verse, and yet it didn't match the context of the passage. Then it occurred to me, could it be that the interpertation of the passage is what it is, and it doesn't change, but scripture also says that all scripture is profitable for doctrine, teaching, etc. Couldn't Christ teach me something using the bible, just as He could teach me something from a bumper sticker?

I want to know the correct historical application of scripture, so that I have an answer to those that would condemn me and that 'tare' in my mind that would spew forth guilt within because I was disobeying scripture. But more importantly than that, I want to know what applies to me now, in the 21st century. It registers true when you said that the natural is a shadow of the spiritual. Someone said on this forum something to the effect that the old covenant was the wedding, but the true journey begins within marriage.

Interesting subject

Sarah

[Paige]

Couldn't Christ teach me something using the bible, just as He could teach me something from a bumper sticker?

Absolutely! For the record, I've found quite a lot in scripture that speaks to me personally. Its not something that I use to convince others of though, because I feel it is God's message for me. It is interesting, too, how often my own personal experiences confirm the truth that I found there.

Paige

[Amie]

Laren,

"Nuts", lol! I agree with you actually - grace teaches. Via liberty, we learn things through the consequences of our actions whether good or bad. I think that Jesus changed the way consequence was understood, clarifying "good" and "bad".

Sarah,

I looked that Scripture up in Green's Literal translation and found this:

2 Peter 1
20 knowing this first, that every prophecy of Scripture did not come into being of its own interpretation;

It seems to clarify the "for" as is translated in the KJV. I


Anyone,

Of whose interpretation did prophecy of Scripture come into being? Does this suggest that some interpretation came from somewhere other than God?

Amie

[sarahb]

Paige,

You said,


Its not something that I use to convince others of though, because I feel it is God's message for me.


I absolutely agree with a personal word being...personal. Sometimes I think personal words are tried to be forced to become doctrine for the masses, and that is old manna...death.


It is interesting, too, how often my own personal experiences confirm the truth that I found there.

I find that God speaks a truth to me through a dream or another way, and later I find that it is supported by scripture. Hell was one of those things.


Amie,

I suppose the corrected translation should clarify that verse for me, but sometimes I'm slow. What does it mean,"did not come into being of its own interpretation;" That wording doesn't make sense to me. How could something come into being through it's own interpertation? That's a mind twister. Doesn't the interpertation come after the prophecy is uttered/written? Perhaps it means that the interpertation and the prophecy are one and the same. Sorry, don't want to distract from the thread, you can ignore the above confusion.

[Laren]

Barry, do you have anything written on the ego stuff, i think i saw a thread here somewhere on it, i'll try to find it, but if you got anymore info re; this let me know.

I'll do some surfing of the different threads on the forum before i ask too many questions.

Just some things running through my head is stuff like law of sin and death in our members, carnal mind versus the mind of Christ, law destroyed or fufilled. Law Holy and good, but just not for us anymore. why are we all born with a desire to do right and avoid wrong, why do we value it so much, and look at ourselves with pride if we think we are doing good. Sorry, i could go on and on, but like i said i'll spend some time surfing the forum.

Where I am at for now with this paradigm shift is that i see all humanity as on a plane with Christ as our pilot. He is the king of all king pilots, in fact he is the only pilot. We just all don't know it, most of us have blindfolds on and therefore fear the turbulance rather than enjoy it.

Once God chooses to enlighten us to the fun of the ride, and the pilot who can not and will not crash, it can be a lot of fun. I see our job who have been enlightened, as one's to share the truth with our fellow plane members who are still blindfolded.

talk later,

thanks to all for the replies so far.

[Barry]

Hi Laren.

Doug (our Ozark) and I (so far that is) are in the beginning of an article on the egocentric man. Doug has really good thoughts on this coming up.
It will take some time.
But yes there are two thread I started here to investigate the idea and progress it a bit.

You said:
Quote:
"Just some things running through my head is stuff like law of sin and death in our members, carnal mind versus the mind of Christ, law destroyed or fufilled. Law Holy and good, but just not for us anymore. why are we all born with a desire to do right and avoid wrong, why do we value it so much, and look at ourselves with pride if we think we are doing good."
End Quote.
Very observant indeed IMHO.

Here are some of my own general thoughts on these things:
of sin and death in our members:
There was nothing in the members of the OC creature that was not from problem resulting from the heart. Specifically the "treasure" of the heart.
Hence nothing is i problematic with the members.
The treasure of the heart relates to the ego image of ourselves.

carnal mind versus the mind of Christ Egocentric versus God centric. Adam's identity became tied up in his own independent potential. Christ's identity was tied directly to God. Adam doubted his image and went after an egocentric self, while Christ did not doubt exactly who he was in the image of God.

Look and see what they were to repent off:

Mark 1:
14) “Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,”
15) “And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”

Both John the Baptist and Christ preached that the kingdom of God was at hand. What is it about the kingdom that required the people to repent and so believe?

Matt. 21:32
“For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not; but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward that ye might believe him.”

Matt. 3:2
“Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand”.
Matt. 3:3
“For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.”
Matt. 3:8
“Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:” [John is warning them that they were going to need fruit or produce that repentance would generate.]
Matt. 3:9
“And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.”

Those who had accepted John’s teaching, which was in the “way of righteousness” were, “confessing their sins” and being baptized by John. This was a baptism of repentance, in acknowledgment of their human limitations. In acknowledgment of human limitations, which the law exposed, they were changing their minds about human potential as the [I]vehicle that could bring about a right relationship (the kingdom of heaven) with God (and henceforth transformation from the heart). This is a baptism that the religious leaders did not acknowledge. The religious leaders could not change their minds about how they viewed human glory. They did not repent so they could not believe. They could not imagine that their human genealogy, which declared them as children of Abraham, was something that the coming kingdom of heaven would no longer recognize. For “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom”.

In these verse repentance preceded belief. And all this related to the difference between an egocentric view and God centered view.


law destroyed or fufilled
The law was fulfilled and so passed away. What was destroyed was the authority of the egocentric self.
Depicted in the temple made with hands and circumcision made with hands. Both were part of the law but fulfilled in God's possibility not in human possibility. Egocentric man cannot house God. God however can dwell in his own image, in his own offspring.

Law Holy and good, but just not for us anymore.
The law was holy and good but given for the egocentric man or self-righteous man. The law is not for the God centered man. This is why it was good but could pass away.

You shall not steal is an example. The egocentric man thinks that he has ownership and therefore may seek that which is owned by another. The God centered man knows that he or she is an individual steward not an owner.
Ownership is comprehensive and collective in God. You are mine I am yours and we are God's. Stewardship can be divided. We are then stewards of not only what is in our so called possession but of each other.
You shall not steal is good and spiritual in itself but does not apply outside of the sphere of self-justification of life.
The law passed away as the authority of lust passed away (1 John 2:15-17). Including the pride of life.

Since the egocentric self has no more authority we are seeing the outworking of the new age as time goes on.

why are we all born with a desire to do right and avoid wrong, why do we value it so much, and look at ourselves with pride if we think we are doing good.
We teach this to our children from one generation to the next IMO. We teach our children "right from wrong".
It is possible to teach our children appropriate and inappropriate behavior without making them think that they are better than someone else for doing what is loving and thoughtful and caring.

Blessings Barry :)

[Laren]

There was nothing in the members of the OC creature that was not from problem resulting from the heart. Specifically the "treasure" of the heart.
Hence nothing is i[Inherently[/I] problematic with the members.
The treasure of the heart relates to the ego image of ourselves.

Adam's identity became tied up in his own independent potential. Christ's identity was tied directly to God. Adam doubted his image and went after an egocentric self, while Christ did not doubt exactly who he was in the image of God.

Barry :)

thanks for the post Barry. This topic reminded me of this article that "Dallas" wrote that got me turned on toward fufilled grace. I don't think he'd mind me posting it. it's pretty long, hopefuly it all goes through. See what ya all think.

Sin

What is sin? Is it the bad things people do? Am I sinning right now? It has to do with obedience and faithfulness right? Would God send me to eternal torment for some poor choices? I thought it was about what Jesus did not me. It is all so confusing, there seems to be no straight answer, and yet every one has one.
For a topic so huge and important there is a lot of misconceptions and fallacies concerning it. There seems to be many scriptures that contradict one another. There are also an uncountable number of doctrines explaining what sin is and very few of them agree with each other. The only thing that seems to be consistent among all the chaos is that a person who is in sin will go to an eternity of torment, or separation from God.
The most popular idea concerning sin in North America revolves around a person’s bad behavior. The negative behavior needs to be judged, and the verdict is death. The sin remains on a person and is either cleansed by the blood of Christ through repentance and forgiveness or the person carrying sin is judged at death and receives eternal torment.
The concept of sin behavior dominates the ideology of the religious and the non-religious. The moral concept of good and bad, right and wrong, or righteous and evil are played out in the minds of every person. All people however have a different standard that they use to judge. This obviously causes a great problem when it comes to identifying sin. One person often finds other cultures quite sinful because they disagree with their ideals. Even more personal every household on the same block of a street has a different standard.
If sin is the behavior people engage in then who is right? Even those who say the Bible has a set of commandments don’t agree with each other from person to person. The debate rages on and seems to be without a definitive answer that all can agree on. This culture of sin behavior has caused a culture of fear. The individual’s eternal life is in jeopardy everyday, and the entrance to Heaven is unsecured. Some people are left with a self-imposed blind hope that it will all just work out one day and others are anxiously sweating out their time here often scared to look up.
The concept of sin is one of the most dominate because all people in one form or another base their lives on what they consider to be sin. Understanding what the Bible says about sin is paramount in the believer’s walk. The paradigm of sin behavior is limiting the power of the cross in our everyday life.

John the apostle teaches us that, “No one who abides in Him (Jesus) sins,” 1 John 3:6. This creates a beginning to the definition of sin. Clearly no one who is sinning has come into the things of Christ. This already causes a dilemma in the sin behavior theology. Many people have defended sin behavior theology by claiming this means habitual sin. The scripture however makes no mention of habitual, but does simply say no one who sins is in Him.
The problem this causes is crippling to the sin behavior idea. No person has ever lived mistake free. If sin is a person’s bad behavior then not one person has been or is ever going to come into the things of Christ, let alone be qualified to come into the heavenly salvation. This leaves no room for argument of repentance or even forgiveness. The scripture says that if you abide in Him you don’t sin. There is no room even to make a mistake. It doesn’t say if you abide in Him and sin and then ask for forgiveness. It is straightforward no one that is in Him sins.
To make things worse for our poor sinner John accuses, “The one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning,” 1 John 3:8. Not only do those who sin have no part in the things of Jesus but John also categorizes them into a family descended from the devil. The argument of sin behavior takes another hit. For if only habitual sin keeps you from abiding in Jesus that would suggest that casual sin is acceptable. However anyone who is walking in any aspect of sin is considered to be of the devil.
Sin is not your bad behavior. If sin is not bad behavior then what is sin? John has suggested that devil sinned all the way back at the beginning. The key word here is beginning. The word is a powerful reference to the beginning of creation. Whenever a prophet, a king or apostle states the beginning they are making a reference to the start of creation as recorded in Genesis.
Jesus taught the same message about the devil. Jesus says the devil is a sinner from the beginning but makes a specific claim about that sin. Jesus was teaching and disciplining the Pharisees (a religious group of the time) saying, “You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. When ever he speaks the lie he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies,” John 8:44.
Jesus is teaching the same principle attributing son-ship to the devil by the proof of sinning. Jesus also explained that not only is a person of the devil through sin but the persons desire is to sin. This again tares at the vain philosophy that only habitual sin excludes a person from the things of Christ. All sinning is attributed to the works of the devil and a persons desire to do them identifying them as his son or daughter. Jesus also references the beginning and specifies the mode of sin is “the lie.”
The beginning being the earliest noting of sin and that the devil and his lie are connected to this event the reference must be explored. If Jesus and John both teach the connection to the beginning there must be significance to it. The beginning is an amazing gathering of truth revealed in pictures and story. The climatic story of a beautiful garden, a serpent and man coming to life as a result of the breath of God is our focus
God declared our making, “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to our likeness,” Genesis 1:26. God has set out mans design. God made man in the image and the likeness of God and covered him in His glory. God proceeded to breathe into a God-hand made vessel. After man breathed his first breath God placed him in the garden of God. Man was surrounded by all nourishment including the tree of life. God told man to eat freely of the trees but then commanded them to refrain from a tree referred to as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God explained that tree would result in man incurring death.
The stage is set for the serpent to be introduced. The serpent here is a picture of the devil. John wrote about the beginning and sin and also connected it to the devil. John wrote another book called Revelation and in the twelfth chapter drew a similar picture of the devil. “And the great dragon was throne down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world,” Revelation 12:9. Since John wrote Revelation and his own personal letters and the Gospel of John (where the other scripture quotes were taken from) I will conclude the serpent and the devil are the same being. Further evidence of the connection is apparent. John is consistent with the serpent being a deceiver just as the devil is a liar, and the father of lies.
The story of the serpent in the garden is quite involved so specific ideas will be pulled out to highlight the concept we are identifying.
The serpent approached the man’s wife, the woman Eve. The serpent engaged her in conversation saying, ‘Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree in the garden?” The woman said to the serpent, ‘From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch, or you will die.” The serpent said, ‘You surly will not die. For God knows that in the day that you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3:1-5.
The lie that deceived the whole world from the beginning has now been identified. God had previously taught the man and woman saying, “from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die,” Genesis 2:17. God also said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to our likeness,” Genesis 1:26.
The serpent told Eve that she wasn’t in the likeness of God and she believed him. The serpent also told Eve how she could become like God. The serpent told her that if she were to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil she would gain God’s likeness and be like Him. How Eve responded to the lure of the lie would shape the way of things for all the world because, “The woman saw that the tree was desirable to make one wise (so) she took from it’s fruit and ate, and she gave some to her husband and he ate,” Genesis 3:6.
Sin is now defined. In disbelief man was lured to believe he wasn’t like God and he attempted to become like God by his own work. Man eating from the tree to become wise was a work that would enslave him forever. Man threw down the glorious covering of God’s glory and went to work and made a covering for themselves as the scripture says, “Then the eyes of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves,” Genesis 3:7.
Man in all his new wisdom had rejected the glory of God and instead took up the glory of man in the image of the creature the serpent. They had not honored God as Father but instead by believing the serpent and honoring him they became children of the serpent, a brood of vipers that would desire the things of their father. For that reason God later instituted the law, “Honor your father and your mother that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord God gives you,” Exodus 20:12.
Next, “They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the cool of the day and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. Then the Lord God called to the man, and said to them, “Where are you?” Genesis 3:8-9. As was shone in the previous chapter man entered the darkness and became lost outside of the presence of God because their shame tormented them.
Sin is man trying to come back into the presence of God, trying to become like God so that he may return to the glorious light and once again eat from the tree of life. Man was now outside the light in the darkness wearing the man-made covering of death and enslaved to the lie of the need to become like God. Sin is man attempting to become righteous by his own works.
Paul the apostle explains, “For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.” Romans 1:21-25
Paul also explains the dilemma that came to man at the arrival of Jesus the Redeemer. The messiah was to restore the kingdom of light and bring man into the likeness of God in the body of Christ Himself. There was however the mindset established within the Hebrew people to work for the likeness and to achieve righteousness through the law in order to come back into the things of God. For the law provoked them saying, “It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the Lord our God, just as He commanded us,” Deuteronomy 6:25.
The Hebrew people had become dependent upon their own ability to become righteous like God in order to establish entrance into the light. The Hebrew people were still devoid of belief just as in the beginning for the law is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. For the tree bares forth fruit of death to those who eat of it just as the scriptures say, “From the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch, or you will die,” and, “The wages of sin is death,” Romans 6:23.
Paul explained how sin in man took advantage of the law saying, “Is the law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except though the law; for I would not have known about coveting if the law had not said, ‘You shall not covet.’ But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the law sin is dead. I was once alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me,” Romans 7:7-11.
The Hebrew trying to become like God used the law to determine the standard to become like God. The sin, man’s need to become like God to gain entrance back into the presence of the light, took over and the failure to achieve likeness resulted in death. Hebrews became a slave to the law in order to achieve righteousness through it.
The Hebrew people were so hopelessly tied into the law they were unable to receive the righteousness that was freely dispensed to all who believed that God had redeemed them through the Son, Jesus Christ. Paul displayed his desire for Israel, “Brethren, my hearts desire and my prayer to God for them [Israel] is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes,” Romans 10:1-4.
Paul even used himself as an example to change the minds of the early Hebrew listeners by testifying, “I count all things to be loss because of the surpassing value of the knowledge of Jesus Christ my Lord, because I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the law, but that which is through the faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of His faith,” Philippians 3:8-9.
It all comes back down to believing the Father just as it was in the garden. Man disbelieved God and fell into darkness striving to become like God. In his attempt to secure righteousness for himself he became a slave to death. Although man wishes to obtain life through righteousness he is condemned to remain in death by his own labor.
But now Jesus, the Light of the World, has shone His wonderful redeeming love from the darkness. Through His faith He has healed the afflicted and brought life to the dead. He obtained righteousness for mankind and freely poured it over the world like thick oil. So now we can believe that God has rescued us, restoring us to righteousness through the act of the finished cross or we can continue trying to become righteous, staying slaves to our ability and remain in death.
For that is how we see the truth of John’s ministering when he said, “No one who abides in Him sins,” 1 John 3:6. If we believe that we are righteous and restored to the light and have come into the presence of God we will stop trying to become righteous by our own ability.
Sin is not our bad behavior. Sin is man still under the spell of the serpent of old. The spell that keeps men thinking they need to do something to be restored to all that God is and is in. God has redeemed mankind, man needs to stop running a race to which he already has the trophy.

[Laren]

Here is a thought I had this morning, thinking more along the lines of egocentric man.

Does an animal, let's say a dog, have an egocentric mind. They definitely are flesh creatures, but if the answer is no; then i would agree that egocentricity is not a problem with the body, but a mindset.

Now dogs are self seeking (when they want love, even though we may perceive it as them loving us, they really are self seeking the love), they steal (bones from each other), they are jealous (just pet one dog and ignore the other and see how they react), they will fight, and even kill. Seems dogs violate the laws of God.

Yet they have no mindset of right or wrong, or at least I don't think they do. By not knowing or having a command of "do this", then they don't set up the egocentric mindset of "I can do this", "I can earn my own righteousness".

So, a dog without a law, lives fully for his/her purpose. They are inherently good, living out the created purpose from God.

Now why did God choose to make us aware of right and wrong, have us go through the process of failing at doing right, to bring us back to trust in Him??? why didnt' he let us stay in a garden state, similar to animals, no knowing right or wrong?

There had to be a purpose.

Just thinking. Any thoughts would be great.


thanks.

[Barry]

Hi Laren
"Dallas" put forward some good points and thank you for posting it here.

Most of my focus concerning the egocentric man relates to:
identity
human potential in its independence from God's possibility
self-justification of the independent identity

Hope that make some sense.
"Dallas" IMO touched on these topics.
Barry

[Barry]

Hi Laren (again LOL ROFL)

When Adam and Eve got kicked out of the garden they needed a better covering for their shame than the leaves they tried to use.
God gave them animal skins.

There cover-up then then identified them among the beast of the field.
This touches on what happened to Nebacannezer (is that spell check right LOL?)
An "unreasoning" beast of the field.
An animal is not necessarily egocentric but it behaves egocentrically and fulfills it's identity.

The Judaizers are called dogs by Paul and Peter. However closer to this point is 2 Pet. 2:12
But these, as natural brute beasts, made (Strong's 1080 IE bred) to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

In essence, the egocentric man is destroyed in the end of the age. The old covenant creature does not live beyond the end of the old covenant. It is the end of the age. Adam's headship ends. The head of the serpent is crushed under the feet of the first-fruits Rom. 16:20.
The egocentric authority is dealt with through the first-fruits obedience as the body of Christ

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Hence the "Princes" of that age are brought to nothing (I Cor. 2:6).

But IMHO to tie all this in, your point is well taken. Animals are just doing what they do. And that fact that they are "flesh" is not a problem.
The problem IMO is when man decides to establish his own identity and his own righteousness.
Once fragmented from God he is fragmented from himself (humanity).
Most animals function in a dominating fashion and either seek authority over each other or accept the authority of one over another.

Since we understand that we are all of the same value and worth having the same image and the same righteousness (of God) then our authority no longer exists over each other.
Ownership has become stewardship
Authority has become integrity
Accountability has become responsibility

Something like Adam had before sin entered into the world. Only better.
Our limited potential cannot now separate us from God. God no longer recognizes its authority.

Those are my thoughts.
Barry

[Laren]

Barry wrote:

In essence, the egocentric man is destroyed in the end of the age. The old covenant creature does not live beyond the end of the old covenant

Laren writes:

I can see this and agree, but then this takes me back to my original post. Even though the new age has come, most don't live like it or believe it. IMHO, the "mind change" occurs through exprerience, not just understanding. Belief comes through experience.

I am, from personal experience seeing that coming to an awareness and belief in what we already are in Christ, is more than just an "ok, i see it, so now i belileve it", but rather is a process of death to life, or in other words a baptism into death of the mindset of self righteousness and a resurrection to life (all occuring in the "mindset/soul"). I think this is part of God's original plan, even after the Old passed away. And that is to struggle to make it under the old "mindset", until you experientially give up, then turn to Him and HIM alone for our righteousness.

Seems to me, the "mindset" of the old man, has to be destroyed in order for the new to form and become true.

This is why I see the events surrounding the build up leading to 70 ad, and the suffering of the first fruits saints; as physical examples that I have went through or am going through to come to a realization of Christ's reign and grace. I am suffering, I am dying, I am beiing resurrected to life; all in a "mindset" way.

I have found the letting go of the "old thinking" very painful. Experience is the best teacher.


Barry writes:
The problem IMO is when man decides to establish his own identity and his own righteousness.
Once fragmented from God he is fragmented from himself (humanity).


Laren writes:

I agree, and so often I find myself still judging rather than accepting. Frustrating.



Barry writes:

Since we understand that we are all of the same value and worth having the same image and the same righteousness (of God) then our authority no longer exists over each other.
Ownership has become stewardship
Authority has become integrity
Accountability has become responsibility


Laren writes:

i just wish this was automatic, and wasnt' a such a process to come to. At least for me it sure has been. Paradigm shifts are never easy.

Barry writes:

Something like Adam had before sin entered into the world. Only better.
Our limited potential cannot now separate us from God. God no longer recognizes its authority.

Those are my thoughts.
Barry


Laren

[Barry]

Hi Laren
I'm really happy that we could have this conversation on a Saturday morning.

The things you have said make sense for sure.

But lets step back about 10,000 miles (16,000 kilometers LOL) see if there is a big picture here.

Paul said that all would be in all.
Coming up to this but not quite there in the transformation of the ages they got a good taste of what was coming.
This taste said that there is neither Jew nor Greek, Male nor Female, slave nor free ECT in Christ. (Hope I go that right LOL).

Let's look at history over the last 2000 years.
You might want to read the two articles on this page (infinite-grace.com/continue.htm).

Jesus said that they were to humble themselves and become as little children.
Why?
IMHO because that is where we are open to discovering ourselves.
Is it possible that one does not need to die to themselves if the self that they discover through childhood and growing up is the right one?
For this to happen however society would have to be very different than it is now for sure.
The question is then, has some headway been made in this direction?
Has some headway been made in Jew and Greek?
Whole countries have written into their constitution a common value and worth among all ethnicities. On the whole as we look back in history we have made tremendous progress as compared to any previous time in history.

Has some headway been made in regards to male and female?
Right to vote! Right to be heard! Equality in the work place! ECT.
Not in all countries but still on the whole as we look back in history we have made tremendous progress as compared to any previous time in history.

Has some headway been made in regards to slave and free?
Outlawed in more and more countries around the world. Society is becoming more and more aware that we cannot own each other.
Are there slave shops? Yes!
Are there abuses? Yes!
Have we none the less made very clear progress in this area as compared to any previous time in history? Yes!!!!

This is my point then.
Human history has just started.
Personally I will not make a religion out of fulfillment. This meaning that dieing to self while experientially necessary in our time for progress to take place (outworking of the new age) is not a human condition in itself.

Within the innocence of the growing up process the child grows into an understanding of the world around them from the perspective of a singularity. In my theory this is afforded and understandable and reasonable.

In short, we do not raise children to feel that they are an equal worth of a larger whole.
This cannot be put solely on the parents. Society itself must improve for this to be more readily imprinted into the identity of those imprintable little ones.
This will take time IMHO.

Nevertheless:
Since the egocentric man is finished with, the ego-man cannot stand in the way (Satan or the serpent hence adversary) of God and what he has declared.
This meaning IMO things will move faster along when we stop giving authority to that which has no authority.
This meaning IMO we can die to ourselves as we have seen ourselves.
That is not a religion any more, its just waking up and smelling the coffee.

Nevertheless:
We must deal with the facade on a daily bases. Our own and others.

This would in my understanding be the real point that I'm trying to make as I understand these things:
IMHO we do better when we see that our own facade is just that. We are not dieing to a real self, but a straw man created in our own minds.
Giving authority to that which we are working out of is not fulfillment IMHO.

And God said it is "very good". I believe Him.

This in no way means that I'm disagreeing with you (it is easy to get that perspective from some of my posts).
Being a bit abstract (its a genetic problem bear with me LOL) it is how I present thoughts.
Blessings, Barry

[Laren]

i thot i posted earlier, but some reason it didn't go through.

anyway, Barry, what i see you saying i agree with it. I think your post did a good job of further defining what i want to say, especially this:

This meaning IMO we can die to ourselves as we have seen ourselves.
That is not a religion any more, its just waking up and smelling the coffee.

Nevertheless:
We must deal with the facade on a daily bases. Our own and others.

This would in my understanding be the real point that I'm trying to make as I understand these things:
IMHO we do better when we see that our own facade is just that. We are not dieing to a real self, but a straw man created in our own minds.
Giving authority to that which we are working out of is not fulfillment IMHO.
We truly are new creations, so we don't die to self; but we do need to die to the false self, one created in our minds.

[Barry]

Hi Laren
I believe that most of the problem that we see in the interpretation of the scriptures is that people are still not fully appreaciating audience relevance.

The bible is the history of eschatology. Eschatology is the history of the natural man.
Reading the bible and then asking how this applies to us today as if it does apply today in a direct ways, is IMHO missing the point.
Such an approach immortalizes the works of Adam. It immortalizes the headship of Adam.
Just a thought
Barry