Male Nuture

[Amie]

KC Wilson offers his perspective on male nurture here: http://www.womenbeyond.com/comm7.htm

Do you agree with his take on it? In what way are you nurturing? ..Or do you think that men nuture at all?

I really want to work to understand the male POV. I feel that it is important to explore these things in a society that is redefining what it means to be a man. (IE, it doesn't have to be true that it is weak to show emotion, though it is absolutely true that men show their emotions differently)

Here are my thoughts so far on the role of men: http://www.womenbeyond.com/roleofmen.htm

What is your experience as Dad, brother, and son? It seems to me that it would be pretty difficult to be male in society as it is today.

..hoping that I haven't crossed lines posting over here :)

Amie

[Lou]

I am not sure “nurturing” describes what the father does. Here society and courts decided the man’s duty with children is to support them financially and little more. We must remember “it takes a village to raise a child.” But if we look at reality that statement must of came from the village idiot. Almost all that are imprisoned in this country had no or a poor father figure growing up.

The “nurturing” may come mostly from the mother but the father has a very strong influence on a child’s character.

[Infinite Grace]

Male nurture is NOT an oxymoron. In fact, I think that it is a different type of nurturing than women give, but it is still nurturing. The old dichotomy of Nature vs. Nurture gives support to this idea. Nature is inherent, humanness. Nurture is environment: emotional, physical and spiritual. Men and women provide all of these important ingredients. I wouldn't even go so far as to say that women do one kind of nurturing and men another - for today's roles are different than they were generations ago.

I have heard stories of women/mothers who have left the house to work a career, while at the same time their husband has chosen to stay at home with their children. Sometimes, less desirable, both parents work separate shifts so that someone is always available for the kids. Either way, both parents can give their child emotional, spiritual, and physical nurture.

I think that it is a bit of a throwback to the patriarchal society that says that men should wrestle with their children, while mother stands idly by, encouraging her kids with words of comfort and support. Is it so far-fetched to imagine a mother rolling on the floor with her young sons? I hope not. Or what about the father feeding his infant child with a bottle (even if breast-fed, the breast milk could be accumulated by use of a pump, and given to the child with a bottle).

I am far more relational than my wife. She is loving, and somewhat affectionate, but she is task-oriented. She made the schedule, she prepares the meals, she homeschools, etc. I sit and hug the kids, I hold them when they need it, I spend long hours telling them about the love of God (whereas their mother spends more time telling them what God doesn't like "God doesn't like it when we lie...").

Anyway, children need nurture from both men and women. Even 2-parent families though fail to do this at times. Sometimes, a single parent with a strong family network (brothers, uncles, a dad, etc.) can utilize those males in the extended family to "train up a child in the way they should go..." This is what my son-in-law's mother did. Her brother spent many hours kicking my son-in-law in the butt to keep him on the straight and narrow. He is a great man because of his uncle Willy. I am forever in Willy's debt for helping to give me the best son-in-law a man could ask for.

[Lou]

From K C Wilson’s Male Nurturing 101


Fatherless children – equally boys and girls – are more socially insecure, and throughout their lives have fewer, less deep, and less lasting friendships.
Dad is critical to socialization and confidence in dealing with the world, and that’s just one part of male nurturing.

Until I was sixteen I never met my father and my mother had been in and out of my life. The above statement hits home with me. My wife is always telling me that I don’t open up to her and she is right. At a very deep level I have never let anyone in. I believe that social insecurity comes from the lack of security in my early years.
Both parents give a child security but the father can enforce or break down that security in some areas of social life.

[Infinite Grace]

It is well known in the therapy world that when men are asked to describe the relationship they had with their father growing up, practically everyone of the men who had substance abuse issues had a story to tell about their father, and it wasn't glorifying. Sexual abuse, physical abuse, abandonment, verbal abuse all were present in almost every story.

So even if the father is there, he can abandon his kids by not giving them the time of day, or when giving them attention making it all negative (as described above).

[Jotham]

Just a ramble as i catch up on so many good threads around here.

I grew up in a loving home with two great and supportive parents. My mom (who was blind) was beautiful inside and out (i once told my dad that if i'd been around "back then" we would have had to fight over her).

My dad actually never told me he loved me until i told him i loved him when i was about 30ish! But i knew he DID love me as he was always there for me and encouraged me in all my adventures. I think for my intelectual dad (he was a college professor) it was hard for him, being so stoich (sp?) to actually tell his son he loved him. I guess it was just a male thing for him.

Anywhooo, my dad would spend time playing with us and reading to us since my mom's handicap kept her from doing such things, but i can tell you we had some of the best home cooked meals and the cleanest house in the neighborhood, thanks to my mom! (if you can't see the dirt you just default that it might/must be dirty, so why not clean it again. and again. grin).

So how did my dad's example shape any of my take on being a father and nurturing my two kids? Well, as in our view of politics i rebelled. The pendelum swung hard to the right (pun intended). I have always been very sensitive and open with my feelings. I found out early on that wearing your heart on your shoulder can get you bruised at times. Though through the years i came to the view that better to have a purple bruise than a bleeding ulcer ; ) So i keep on sharing (in context and to whom it relates).

My sharing is nearly 180 degrees oposite from my beloved wife of 25 years. How we got past the first 5 is nothing short of a miracle! Can you picture a guy that always has to know (i've grown a bit. hehe) what he "did" to cause a rift or argument? Asking again, and again? Man, looking back i don't know how she hung in there without slugging me!

So what did this do for our two wonderful kids? Well Cari (my wife) is the strong silent type (like my dad), and I'm the talkative sensitive one! What a role reversal to the typical male/female models seen in Hollywood. Anyway, my daughter turned out to be much like myself, sensitive, talkative (to family and very close friends) on matters of life and such. My son is the silent type like his mom. . . So both kids, though just a couple years apart, and for all intent, raised similarily turned out to be two totaly unique individuals.

So since both were "nurtured" in a similar environment, and they are so different, i can't really put a finger on what my nuturing did or did not do for them. LOL.

Thank God he is the big kahuna of nuturing fathers and has them in His hands!

end of ramble.

Cheers,
Thom

[Amie]

Thom,

Thanks for your "ramble". I think that it's beautiful how humanity is discovering just how much you dads matter not just as "paychecks" and "hunter/gatherer", but through the impacts that y'all make in every aspect of ours and our childrens' lives.

Good to "see" ya!

Amie

[Me Again]

Hey,
It has been shown in survey after survey that a girl needs a strong father figure in her life. Girls that have a father that openly shows affection and who takes the time to love them are less likely to get pregnant before marriage, and engage in delinquent behavior (not that there are many female delinquents out there - at least not yet!). They tend to have better developed self-esteem and are more socially appropriate. Of course, these are all societal norms that may or may not be desirable to all, but as a general rule, these are positive traits that are found more pronounced in girls with a good relationship with their fathers.

ed

[Jotham]

Hey,
It has been shown in survey after survey that a girl needs a strong father figure in her life. Girls that have a father that openly shows affection and who takes the time to love them...Hi Ed, i agree with the first sentence "strong father figure". I agree that "openly" showing affection is a good thing. . . What is confusing me is that though i am one to show affection openly toward my wife, children, family and friends. . . i do not necessarily think that the world would categorize a male who takes such action as "strong". Do i need to rethink some definitions? Open to suggestions/reason.

: ) Thom

[Me Again]

I think that I was using the word "strong" not as a physical description of the father figure, but rather as a quanitifier of a father's commitment to fatherhood.

Today's society is pretty sick, quite frankly. I deal everyday with kids who are "damaged goods." The sad part is that, in my home, I have 4 foster kids under the age of 6. On my caseload at work, I have 9 teen or pre-teen boys, and 5 kids (a sib group) all under 6. Of these 9 young kids, 4 of them are girls. All of those four girls have shown conclusive signs of sexual abuse - all of them 5 and under.

Little girls should have a father who protects them from harm. Too often, teen girls, whose father was out of the picture, have babies; and then, at some later time a boyfriend comes along who sexually abuses the babies. When these kids are removed due to abuse and neglect, the Pandora's box starts to open up and we see this horrible mish-mash of "demons." Sexual abuse, physical abuse, attachment issues, etc. In the regular scheme of things, a little girl should be hiding behind mommy's skirt, or snuggling with daddy; the girl is crawling up in the lap of some stranger, stimulating herself through gyrating hips. Some even touch themselves, and not in the normal exploratory way, but in a very over-sexualized, stimulation of their genitalia. It's sick, sad, disgusting and makes me angry.

I believe this is why so many fundamentalists have a willing audience to preach to. Just like in the Priest sex abuse cases, this gives fundies ammo to condemn "the world" and point fingers at homosexuals and others. Rather than lovingly offering their lives sacrificially to these young girls, to be fatherly mentors, they sit in their churches cursing "the darkness," using this to point to the inevitable "return of Christ" to "fry their asses in hell." Talk about a distorted message.

It's no wonder our society is so screwed up. Sick bastards on the one side, and self-righteous busy-bodies on the other. We must avoid these two extremes. Mentoring, adoption, foster parenting, etc. are just a few ways that we can help; as believers in fulfilled grace, all the theology in the world won't help these kids, or the sick people who abused them. Love will. Helping these kids find true love, unconditional positive regard, proper self-esteem and self-efficacy. That's what we can do as FG/FE proponents. That's what will change the world.

[Jotham]

I homeschooled my daughter and son. By the time they left for the big, big world they were well rounded and had spent most of their life interacting with caring, loving, well adjusted and well meaning adults. They did not spend much time with kids. What did this do for them? And this is from our 22 year old daughter and 19 year old son on retrospect:

My daughter remembers all the time her mom and dad spent showering her with attention, commitment, and love. All the real life lessons and instruction-on-the-go (homeschool lessons in Disneyland? Oh yea baby). My wife and i also chose to send her off to Martial Arts school when she was about 16. I knew as a father i could not always be there for her once she left the nest. Now she is a black belt in tae kwan do and several degrees up the system in Israeli Grav Maga. Don't mess with this ballerina or you'll be on your back staring at the stars...or were those just in your mind's eye? She is also (her superior's words) one of the most well adjusted young woman they have had the pleasure to work alongside.

Our son is (his civilian boss's and also adult friends words) "one of the most compassionate young men" they know. He is a volunteer firefighter, and now serving in the USAF like his big sister. His hope is to take his skills of carpentry and structural engineering/building and assist in disaster relief and such as the opportunities present themselves in the course of time. He remembers the walks on the beach with his Papa and long talks of life and Lord, Papa's crazy adventures that should not be repeated, but told as heads up/warnings to watch out for in life, and lots of laughs and some of the crazier adventures they both shared.

As a dad i focused on giving the kids what i am, compassionate, touchy-feely-lover, organizer, provider, and behind-the-scenes-supporter...and also my luv for bringing out the best in people i meet.

: ) Thom

[Jason Hall]

I think that the question posed here is inherently mis-connotated. Our society has moved so far into defining all family matters by the perspective of women that the idea of "male nurturing" aparently is beyond conception by some, if not many.

Technically, it'd depend on your definition of nurture. But, I would pose to anyone who thinks it strange, or impossible: What would be the point of two mothers? Because if you define nurture as what a mother does, then a nurturing father would then be reduntant and therefor, unnecessary. That's the thinking that's lead to the current American social issues with fathering. The "Why do we need them?" attitude.

I do seriously doubt the question was posed with a negative attitude toward fatherhood, don't get me wrong, please. I'm just saying that part of the issue with not understanding how a father nurtures is the misunderstanding of what nurturing is.

All that ranting aside, I'm not sure I have any life-based empirical data to base my views on, but as far as I can tell, the mother is to teach the children of the emotional aspects of life, whereas the father is to teach of the logical aspects. This is an exaggeration, but it's to simplify the thoughts. The mother is to raise the child in their emotional development within the family and friends circles, and, when old enough, the father is to take the child out in to the world and show them how to interract with the rest of the world. First, you learn love, then wisdom.

A proper fathering nurture is the teaching of how to deal with all the unniceties of life. How to deal with "what's out there". I think that's why the preterist/fulfilled grace movement is stuck in the "What do we do now that we know it's done and we're in grace?" problem, because we've all grown into this so emotionally, in an emotion-based society, that no one knows how to deal with the "real world". We've moved on from mother church to father God, and we should be looking to him for answers now. Too bad we're still held down by the emotional baggage.

When a father teaches his child, he is to invoke an understanding God, and how to deal with the world. When a man shows his child love, by being there for when they're hurt, and defending them when they get into trouble, and by standing by them, or even before them, in the face of adversity, they are providing a father's nurture. A true nurturing father teaches a child by flesh what God is to their spirit.

We may all be equal in Christ, but we are all different in how we think and act, and some of that is simply genetics, and a 24th of genetics is gender, so we really shouldn't define concepts via one gender's position, else we'll lose half our inheritance.