Exorcism

[backtothefuture]

Exorcism: Does this really exist does anyone know? I watched a special on the history channel and they gave the story of what the movie the exorcist was based on. This kind of stuff, really seems creepy to me, but was wondering if its really a Biblical thing? Especially now:confused:

Thanks,
Nancy:eek:

[Amie]

Nancy,

I did my presentation on it at last year's Transmillennial conference. Here's a copy of it: http://www.presence.tv/cms/con-out-of-darkness.php

Amie :)

[backtothefuture]

Goah Amie,
That was such a good article. I only just finished reading it. Help me to calm down my own adversaries eating away at me lately. When I step away from the grace and walking face to face, I can see how easy it is for me to be Possessed by my own demons. Fear, Abandonment, guilt, shame, the list can be endless.
Perfect love does cast out fear. I need to remember that.:)
Blessings,
Nancy

[Pleroo]

Interesting article. I found much I was in agreement with.

I don't know where I stand on this subject (as to there being an actual being/beings that make up the satanic realm versus the satanic realm -- the "powers & principalities" -- being our own sinful natures setting themselves up against God) but it is something I have recently become more aware of as someone close to me has described to me his deliverance from the demonic. This is not a person who is prone to histrionics of any kind, and especially not "spiritual histrionics", so I take what he says at face value. He feels there was a very real demonic presence cast out of him. I don't doubt him, but have considered the possibility that it was not a spiritual being but a manifestation of something within his own sinful nature combined with the damage done to him through abuse that he suffered. In some way, perhaps those things within ourselves might in some way produce a spiritual energy that can take on a "life" of it's own.

I am concerned, however, about completely dismissing the possibility of their being demonic beings. If there are, and we dismiss them as merely "creations" of our own making, would we be playing into their hands?

Amie, since you obviously have done a great deal of research into this subject, I have a question for you. What do you make of the account of Daniel's vision in chapter 10? Whom is being referred to as the "Prince" or "the head" of the kingdom of Persia?

[Amie]

Pleroo,

I think that context tells us who each advesary is, and that the ultimate adversary (the ones who took on the role of the serpent later) were those who warred against the entrance of the New Covenant.

The demons of the bible were those believed in via superstition - and even against the idea of monotheism (belief in one God) because demons in ancient days were not seen as demi-gods as they are today, they were seen as other-gods.

However, I agree with you that manifestations today are parts of ourselves.

The point of the article was to validate the experience of Anneliese. I think that it's important to acknowledge that experiences like hers, and your friends, are very real. To explain it as an other-god, I think, is to also take from that experience - if that makes sense. I think that we are far more powerful than we are aware of.

I do not utterly dismiss the supernatural either - I'm unable to because of my own experience.. When my son was four, and my husband and I staying with his mother - he worked nights. He was gone, my son in bed (a loft bed - or a bunk bed with only the top bunk), and me reading a book when I heard a woman's voice call my name.

I went into the living room assuming that his mom or sister was up - and the house was shut down. I heard my name again, but behind me, toward where my son slept.

My sister in law's room was just beside it, so I went to her door and put my ear to it to see if she was even up. I didn't hear a thing.

Then again, I hear my name LOUD just behind me. I turned, and saw my son hanging from the bed and sliding downward, head first! I caught him, and tucked him back in (also blocking the opening with pillows), he never even waking.

I asked around the next morning and no one in the house had called my name.

The voice wasn't familiar to me, but the funny thing is that if it had been a male voice, I may have been frightened by it. Whoever it was, I am grateful. My son probably would have broken his neck.

How would dismissing demonic beings be playing into their hands? Where are they biblically plotting?

As for the "sar" of the King of Persia - it appears as if a messenger of God is aiding the King of Persia and receives his strength from Michael, the archangel. Michael, in my opinion, is symbolic for Christ (who is "like unto God") himself.

If you can take the violence, the movie "300" is a great vision of what the defeat of the Persian King looked like - as well, how he was seen as a god. God himself ensured his stance, so I can partially understand why he would feel invincible. The movie depicts the moment when he lost God's protection though - and it was quite a shock to his ego.

Each Kingdom that would overcome Israel and work as Israel's head, had to have had God's authority to do so. That was his nation.

I hope that addressed your question. If not, I'll try again :).

Amie

[Pleroo]

The point of the article was to validate the experience of Anneliese.

Oh, yes. I know that. I hope it didn't seem like I was questioning you or the intention of the article. All the thoughts I presented in my post are things I have been wrestling with myself, not things I was questioning within your article. :) I wasn't arguing with you, just bouncing some of my own thoughts off of you. Forgive me if it came off confrontationally.



How would dismissing demonic beings be playing into their hands? Where are they biblically plotting?

Well, whether it be personification or actual fact, there are places where satan/the devil and evil spirits are pictured as tempting man. I realize that the Bible says temptation comes from our own desires, so either "satan/the devil" is our own sinful nature or, in some way, actual spiritual beings are capable of playing on those desires. If it is the latter, I think it would be important to acknowledge their existance. That is where I'm at right now, at any rate.




As for the "sar" of the King of Persia - it appears as if a messenger of God is aiding the King of Persia and receives his strength from Michael, the archangel. Michael, in my opinion, is symbolic for Christ (who is "like unto God") himself.

Okay, I'm looking at the passage in a few different translations and none of them seem to me to be implying that the messenger is aiding the Persian prince/king. They all say, in some way, that he is in contention with him. :scratch: Am I missing something?


If you can take the violence, the movie "300" is a great vision of what the defeat of the Persian King looked like - as well, how he was seen as a god. God himself ensured his stance, so I can partially understand why he would feel invincible. The movie depicts the moment when he lost God's protection though - and it was quite a shock to his ego.

Each Kingdom that would overcome Israel and work as Israel's head, had to have had God's authority to do so. That was his nation.

I hope that addressed your question. If not, I'll try again :).

Amie

I've never seen that movie and am not familiar with the history. Thank you for drawing my attention to that aspect of the Daniel account. I'll have to do some reading up on that.

Thanks for taking the time to answer. Again, I hope my post wasn't insulting in anyway. It wasn't meant to be. :o

[Amie]

I hope it didn't seem like I was questioning you or the intention of the article.

Not in the least! And if you were, I still would not be offended. You are my sister, whether or not we agree :). I read it like this once, "Insisting that I’m ‘right,’ would be slamming the door of my mind. For me, to be dead right is to be dead!"


Okay, I'm looking at the passage in a few different translations and none of them seem to me to be implying that the messenger is aiding the Persian prince/king. They all say, in some way, that he is in contention with him. Am I missing something?

Maybe not, maybe I am.. In verse 13, it reads that the King of Persia "withstood" the messenger of God for 21 days. Then, Michael came to help the messenger, and then the messenger stayed with the King of Persia.

So, it seems like this messenger causes some havoc, without overcoming the kingdom - eventually supporting the King. Yet, Daniel would then be warned that Michael would enter in and empower him (the messenger) to finally overthrow Persia.

It sounds like very prophetic stuff.

"300" is about the "Battle of Thermopylae" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae). It was the beginning of the end for Persia. "Alexander" is another great one to rent that puts you in the time of the fulfilment of Daniel's prophecies imo. They're both violent and gorey though.

One sort of neat bit of "ghee whiz information" is that before Alexander was born, his father drempt that he sealed Alexander's mother's womb with the seal of a lion (a symbol for the tribe of Judah). His mom had a similar dream.

I understand where you are coming from now about "playing into their hands" and I appreciate your helping me to. Since I view eschatology as fulfilled, I see the war as won, over, and the "bad guys" as defeated. I'm not posing that as an argument either, just examining our different views.

Amie

[Pleroo]

I understand where you are coming from now about "playing into their hands" and I appreciate your helping me to. Since I view eschatology as fulfilled, I see the war as won, over, and the "bad guys" as defeated. I'm not posing that as an argument either, just examining our different views.

Amie

Ah, I see. I would have a hard time looking at the battle as being over because I still feel the battle raging within me. All today, as a matter of fact! *sigh* :rolleyes: And looking around and seeing all the evil that people must endure, I would have to hope that there would be a more complete realization, manifestation, experience (something) of the victory.

[Amie]

Pleroo,

This thread comes to mind when you bring up inner battles: http://talk-grace.com/showthread.php?t=390. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

I think that though the victory was long ago, that the realization of it is going to take a while. It took thousands of years for the work of Adam to mess things up. Even Dr Phil says that it takes at least twice as many "atta boys" to make up for one negative comment, ha.

Amie

[Pleroo]

Thanks for the link, Amie. I've skimmed through the thread. I think it's going to take some time for me to digest before I can respond. Y'all have a very different way of thinking and talking about things around here and I want to get a better feel for it before I jump in and risk putting my foot in my mouth. :)

[Barry]

Thanks for the link, Amie. I've skimmed through the thread. I think it's going to take some time for me to digest before I can respond. Y'all have a very different way of thinking and talking about things around here and I want to get a better feel for it before I jump in and risk putting my foot in my mouth. :)

Don't you worry about such things!!!!
We are not here to embrace or to esteem our selves. We seek knowledge and we speak our views, but strive for such knowledge as that which is framed in, or embraces relationship (love).

Post your thoughts as (and if) you wish and use those answers and thoughts you receive to examine some of the perspectives of others here (IE opportunity). Otherwise you are stuck reading through endless threads attempting to grasp where we are coming from.

While this (extensive research on this site) would be of some benefit we like the fellowship so much we prefer that you not have to go through endless threads to continue a conversation.

Blessings
Barry

[Pleroo]

Thank you Barry! I really appreciate the welcoming spirit here. :)

We are in the middle of getting ready to move, so my time is limited but I'm looking forward to reading and participating as time permits.

Okay, Amie, without getting into the real meat of that thread, I just wanted to add this tidbit to what you were saying about "satan" meaning adversary or adverse. If I'm understanding you, you're saying that this is still something we are in contention with, and I agree.

The other word we use synonymously with satan is "devil" and if I'm not mistaken, that means "accuser". So, satan/the devil is the adversary and accuser. It just seems to me that this phenomenon of adversary/accuser is alive and very active in the world today -- and in me personally. We are constantly being dogged by the guilt (that's the accuser) of the things we do (that's the adversary) that are against our new nature. "It is no longer I that sins, but sin which dwells in me." The adversary/accuser dwells in me. Christ has won the victory and God is reconciling me to Him, but until that adversary/accuser within is completely destroyed, I don't see the struggle as being over.

[Amie]

Pleroo,

I do think that we can own adversarial thinking. I think that the biblical adversary of the Gospel has been defeated, know what I mean?

I think that the struggle that we experience within, as a human race, is becoming less and less. I think that the defeat was accomplished at the cross, and since then, that has been becoming known/understood. It is understanding the redeeming work of Christ (and I agree that it was for all humanity) that saves us from a hell on earth.

Davo has a great (and short) article on "salvation" here: http://pantelism.com/SALVATIONWhatItMeans.htm

I don't think that we are in contention with anything outside of ourselves.

Just some thoughts, and I appreciate yours :).

Amie