Life's Purpose

[Amie]

Do we really even have to have a purpose in life? How would things be different for you without the burden of finding a purpose, thinking that you have lost your purpose, or that you have to live up to a purpose?

Before, I felt as if I was chasing my tail. "Oh this is my purpose!" I would think. Then whatever it was didn't pan out and I was purpose-less again and again in search of a purpose.

I eventually quit my search and just stopped thinking about it. It wasn't until reading Byron Katie's book that I consciously contemplated whether or not it was true that I ever needed one. It felt good thinking "Hey, I really am just where I should be."

What do you think?

Amie

[Barry]

This is a very deep topic Amie, and congratulations are in order to you for bringing it up.
IMHO our purpose is simply life and living. Anything more than that is the forbidden fruit.
Barry

[Dano]

I believe the very fact we exist is a blessing and proof of a purpose. Ironically, searching for our purpose might just blind us from seeing where we’re at in the here and now...at the present moment. I picture myself walking down the sidewalk with a magnifying glass, searching for my purpose. Until, suddenly, I get hit by a truck because I didn’t look up. Was that an element of my purpose? How cruel! The bad things can bring you to a fork in the road; an option to branch in a different direction. And speaking of branches, it might be that we too often view purpose as linear, when in fact our purpose is like the branches of a great tree–for us to live and experience and let the leaves fall where they do. Everything has a purpose; a reason for happening. Just a thought. Great topic!

[Paige]

I agree Barry, Amie, and Dano.

I liken the topic of finding my purpose to what I went through in the 80's. At that time the hot topic was finding your spiritual gift. Everybody had at least one gift, and we needed to find out what it was, and then begin exercising it. IMO it produced a lot of human effort. What "man" could do for God.

If my purpose is just to "be"; then whatever life brings me, I am already fulfilling that purpose as I rely on my relationship w/Christ to live through it w/Him. If people believe that they are wasting their life, then it seems they are really caught in a depressed cycle that has them constantly on the losing end of things.

Paige

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
Oh, I just can't believe you asked this question. OK, this is a true story. Two weeks ago I was wailing before God. What is my purpose God, just what is my purpose????I must be lost because I just can't find my purpose. I felt like God said " Nancy, lighten up" so I went to Target and bought a frosting kit and I am now a blond. ( more about that in the beauty forum). Still I would lay in bed and cry out, what is my purpose, why don't I have one.
So a couple days later I was looking in the mirror with my now blond hair and talking to myself, asking myself still, Nancy just what is your purpose??
So I just stared into the mirror and little by little these things were revealed to me.
I am a wife to a husband that is loosing his job. My purpose with him is to love him and encourage him
I am a mother to two adult children with many physical needs. My purpose is to set boundaries and always show them unconditional love.
I am a daughter to two 85 year old parents on oxygen the next town over. My purpose is to comfort them, shop for them, stay all night in the hospital room with them if I have to.
I am sister to my sister who is in a terrible marriage and my purpose is to listen to the pain in her voice daily and comfort her.
I am a aunt whose purpose was to home school a nephew who would have not graduated from high school if I hadn't .
I am a friend to lots of hurting people, my purpose is not to give them false hope but to show compassion.
By the time I got done with the internal inventory, I was like, I am so sorry God. You have given me a purpose. Thank you for taking the blinders off.
Now I would say to myself while looking in the mirror. Nancy, God has given you a "purpose driven life" . Be OK with this and go now and be the face of Jesus.

Nancy

[Paige]

Praise God, Nancy!

That was beautiful and a good reminder to me as well.

I am so thankful for your presence here with us! (Could it be that you have a "purpose" here, lol?)

Paige

[Lauri]

Okay along these same lines I would ask does everything happen for a reason? We hear that phrase all the time "everything happens for a reason." I used to think so and would search for that reason when something major would happen. For example when Andy got his liscense to work on Airplanes and he got a job in Indianapolis we were going to a church that supported a mission in the inner city. That was something close to my heart and I became involved with it and thought this must be the reason we had to move here far away from family and anyone we know, because God wanted me here to work at this mission. Well not long after I started working there I became very sick and barely mobil with arthritis so I couldn't go there anymore. Then when Andy got laid off at America West in Phoenix where we were close to his mom and my folks and got a job here in Minnesota, again far away from family and anyone we know, we at the time were involved in the Nazarene church which didn't have a presence here so we began the process of trying to plant one here. After a couple of years of struggle we started to see signs of progress and things were happening. Well it was a small intimate group and our beliefs were bound to come out and they did and we were told to shut up or leave. At this point in my life I guess I believe that life just happens and God is with us in whatever happens good or bad. We can create purpose in our tradgedies or experiences such as the couple who dedicates themselves to helping find a cure to a disease that their child dies from. But I have a hard time believing that their child died of the disease so they would help find the cure. What are some of your thoughts?

Lauri

[davo]

At this point in my life I guess I believe that life just happens and God is with us in whatever happens good or bad. We can create purpose in our tradgedies or experiences such as the couple who dedicates themselves to helping find a cure to a disease that their child dies from. But I have a hard time believing that their child died of the disease so they would help find the cure. What are some of your thoughts?

Hi Lauri,

I'm inclined to see it as you've expressed above.

I also believe God moves within and beyond our circumstances to work ends in His bigger picture. So I believe man has free will in that sense but within the bounds of God. That's why we (I) can sometimes suffer because of our (my) own stupidity -- it makes a mockery of God IMO to sheet home to God consequences of our (my) own actions. Yet even in and beyond this God can work marvelously.

That's why "all things" [good or not good] can "work together" for good...

[Amie]

Some of the comments concerning 'purpose', remind me of a chapter in "Scream Free Parenting" (by Hal Runkel) where he shows how to seriously think about what you want for your children - and then let it all go. I think that allows us (me that is) a little more, to let our (my) children be who they are going to be rather than who we (I) wish for them to be. What this has to do with this thread, lol: If our purpose is to raise secure adults, and they grow up a bundel of nerves, aren't we then measured as failures? What if we had no purpose, no goal in mind, and lived the best that we could daily - and raised kids who were a bundel of nerves? It may not be so for you, and I may just be a worry-wart at that (lol), but not having a purpose has lifted a load off my shoulders.

Lauri I have been thinking about how I would answer your question for a long time. That was a hard question!


We can create purpose in our tradgedies or experiences such as the couple who dedicates themselves to helping find a cure to a disease that their child dies from. But I have a hard time believing that their child died of the disease so they would help find the cure.

Without thinking, I tend to assign reason to many of my experiences of suffering. "It made me who I am" ie. It really is possible that God decided that my son, ie, needed to learn to deal with death and that is why his dog died. It is possible that the child in your analogy died for the cure (maybe it saved millions of lives). It is also possible that Mike's dog just died and that there was no reason, and that there was no reason for that child's death. It almost makes it as if they died for nothing - and why do I associate that with a bad thing.. hmmm..

As you can see, my mind has just been swirling over that and probably will be for some time. I give you the prize so far for asking the deepest question.. awesome :)

Amie

[Bill]

I have an answer to the question of suffering that works for me. I think that God creates a backdrop of suffering so that our expressions of His love will stand out. When a child dies, or a dog, or when anything "bad" happens it is so that we will have a chance to express God's love to those who are suffering.

In fact, that is our purpose in all things. I also think that as we express God's love to those around us it helps us to appreciate His love for us. And I also think that as we appreciate His love for us it helps us express His love to those around us.

Thanks for listening,

Bill

[Amie]

Bill,

Perhaps what we are saying is a paradox in that as I understand it, living my life without a specified purpose takes from me any work, enabling me to just love. Isn't that love though, exactly what you described?

Good to meet you,

Amie

[Bill]

Amie,

It's great to be here! I've come to the point where "virtual" church is the best I can hope for and this is it for me.

I'm not very good with paradoxes but I think we agree. I think of the parable of the good Samaritan. The priest who passed by the beaten man was most likely very intent on fulfilling God's purpose as he saw it. In fact, he was probably going over his checklist of 613 laws that he had to keep that day as he decided he didn't have time for helping him. His "obedience" distracted him from God's opportunity.

Then comes along the ungodly Samaritan who saw this poor man as God's purpose for him. Like you said (at least I think this is what you were saying), we can be so busy fulfilling our burdens that we miss the opportunity to share in God's joy of expressing love for one another.

Jesus took the 613 laws of the Old Way and expressed them in only one law. That is to express our love for God (and His love for us) by loving one another. Everything else is worthless.

And loving one another is easy. Most often, it just means allowing people the freedom to be what God has made them. Well maybe not that easy, but I think that the more we realize the freedom that God has given us the easier it becomes to give others that same freedom.

Bill

[jlv]

Amie,


Do we really even have to have a purpose in life? How would things be different for you without the burden of finding a purpose, thinking that you have lost your purpose, or that you have to live up to a purpose?

My purpose is to compliment the cook. I do that very well. So well in fact that at this very moment I'm carrying 60 pounds of compliments to my young bride. You have not lived until you've eaten a platter of her pork chops.

JL

[Barry]

I think that JL makes a valid point LOL.

Been thinking about these things.
I think that personal growth is kind of a purpose.
At what point however does growth lead us to embracing the idea of just living?
None of us are going to get out of this alive. How do we react to this and what influence does this have upon us.
Since we are going to die we could live our life in preparation of the next, or we could live our life going for the gusto because you never know when you are go to go.
Is it possible that neither one of these embraces just living for the purpose of living while you have opportunity to live.
Living in preparation for the next has its drawbacks. If you die at 5 years old well, not much preparation was done. If you die at 95 you may not have done enough to prepare. Are we missing the point here?

Does it not make more sense that whatever time you have just live with respect for that time? The time you have is your time to live. Has little to do with anyone else. Is it possible that to a large degree each one's time is not the affair of another? Are we looking for a fairness in the whole thing? Is life unfair? Is our search for fair holding us back? Is that a little like "for the day that you eat there of you shall surely die"?

What is the thinking behind the idea of finding and fulfilling a particular purpose in life? If we are living to live is there not a good chance that that would take care of itself anyway?
Does some of this relate to us trying to validate or substantiate our value? IMHO having something to prove is our greatest "ball and chain". I have made more errors in life trying to prove something about my self then by any other means.

It seems to me that we still as Christians try to adapt the idea of a mission and purpose and election of the old world and adopt it into the new economy to ourselves.
When can we just start living. Living for living, living in God's presence, living in love for the time that the time has to offer? Can we do that? It may be just me, but this makes more and more sense as a way of living to me.
Is looking for that purpose freedom?
Any thoughts anyone?
Barry

[Amie]

Barry,

I wonder if "going for the gusto" (really living - now) is the same as preparing for the next. I think of the next as a continuance (just my mental picture).


If we are living to live is there not a good chance that that would take care of itself anyway?

That's what I'm thinking. "Purpose" can be better defined using hindsight, much like Lauri pointed out when she brought up "for a reason". As she also brought up, it is still questionable as to whether that is true.

For me, purpose was about a reason to live. When I had a reason, I thought about purpose very little. When I felt that I had no reason, I went in search of one. As I searched (similar to what you said already), I wasn't truly living.
It is amazing that the more I realize inwardly that things are as simple as living and loving, the quieter my soul is. At times, it's a strange thing.

Amie

[Lauri]

Hi All,
Well I'm still learning to navigate this forum, I missed a bunch of these posts because the subject keeps changing and instead of clicking on the main thread "Personal growth and Spirituality" I was just clicking on the current subject under that thread so I missed some of the posts on here until it was back on this subject today when I logged on, oops. Well there must be a reason for that. :biglaugha:

It sounds like you are all saying basically what I have come to believe, at least that is how I've interpreted it. Barry you wrote:
Does it not make more sense that whatever time you have just live with respect for that time? The time you have is your time to live. Has little to do with anyone else. Is it possible that to a large degree each one's time is not the affair of another? Are we looking for a fairness in the whole thing? Is life unfair? Is our search for fair holding us back? Is that a little like "for the day that you eat there of you shall surely die" I like that a lot. I think that was a lot of the problem I had when trying to find a reason for everything that was happening, I was looking for the fairness in the whole thing. If something tragic happens and I see others breezing through life with no problems (ha, is that true?) I don't want to feel God unfairly picked me out for this tragedy(you know the whole why me, what did I do to deserve this syndrome) so I look for some divine purpose for it but then when it doesn't turn out to be whatever reason I finally come up with I begin to feel anxiety and depression again. That is why I now believe life just happens (which God set into motion in the first place ) and God is right there with us holding our hand through every situation weather good or bad. Our job is simply to play the cards delt to us weather good or bad. I do believe we can learn and grow through all our life experiences with God's help. In a sense I guess that's what you were saying Amie when you wrote:
Without thinking, I tend to assign reason to many of my experiences of suffering. "It made me who I am" I do think all our life experiences make us who we are and maybe in that sense everything does happen for a reason, to make us who we are. I think the danger is in searching for a divine reason for the things that happen ie., God allowed this to happen to me so that...... maybe we just need to leave all that up to God and just live life, live the love God graciously poured on us. I guess that's pretty much what you've all been saying.

Lauri

[Barry]

The following would be a sort of a side track to the subject Lauri: Sorry!
Here are my present views from another study:
In another study I've come to the conclusion that the Old economy is an economy that is founded upon the accountability of ownership (henceforth death because we are not qualified to be God [ie. owner]).
The new economy upon stewardship.
Stewardship cannot establish righteousness but implies a growth in view of righteousness.
In the old view we thought of our possessions and relationships as part of our ownership (the old covenant accountability). My Children, my wife, the offspring of my lions, my donkey, my honor, my legacy, ETC. Here we look for fairness.
In stewardship everything belongs to you through the Father (it's Daddy's) and certain things in life enter into our stewardship. Our job is not to find fairness but always work with what we have embracing the possible increase of this stewardship as well as the possible decrease of it. It will decrease for we are not getting out of this alive.
IMHO this view fits well with what we have been speaking about.
Just my thoughts however.
Barry

[Donone]

Mind if I pick up this thread again? Its hard to improve on the first question of the Shorter Catechism What is the chief end (or purpose) of man? To know God and enjoy Him forever. I have tried to live with that idea for most of my life. Problem is, like many of us, the more I learned about God the more I face the lose of relationships in the church. The better I find the good news to be, the more fearful I become in sharing it, as I have come to expect most of the sweet Christians I know to have stopped thinking or reading long ago.

On a larger scale, was there a purpose for Katrina? For the Sunami? I got pretty sick listening to all the judgment language coming from the church on those two events. I do not necessarily find direct blessings for doing the right thing, and despite my love for and implicit trust in God, I find much of the pain, loss and hurt to be quite random and meaningless, ie purposeless. I am quite ready to see the picture on top of the threads,and yes, I have had a pretty wonderful life.

Don

[ozark]

Don,

Good thoughts. I think “knowing God and enjoying Him forever” is probably a good explanation of our purpose. Yet, when we think of enjoying God, we sometimes think of a life of no pain. Sometimes it takes pain to come to enjoy God. For example, can a human being come to know the depths of love in a perfect world—no enemies, everybody the same, no problems? And if we cannot know the greatness of love without these things, how can we enjoy God fully without them?

I tend to look at things as part of a plan, but that is just me. I believe that all things are given to help us see the kingdom. We just have to get used to looking. For example, what are all those people than can’t seem to see the forest for the trees out there for? Are they there to make our lives difficult, or are they there to help us see?

[Paige]

Doug,

Your thoughts really resonate with me concerning whether or not we can know love (or God) without the (perceived) negatives around us. What would a life look or feel like devoid of emotion? You can't have the "feel good" emotions w/o the "feel bad" ones, IMO.

Don,

I also like that Shorter Catechism. I feel it is probably the best way of simplifying such a profound truth, and in the knowing of God our experience becomes a journey we could never fathom :)

Paige

[Amie]

Don,

I don't mind any thread being picked back up :).


..the more I learned about God the more I face the lose of relationships in the church.

Would you mind elaborating? What has been your experience?


The better I find the good news to be, the more fearful I become in sharing it, as I have come to expect most of the sweet Christians I know to have stopped thinking or reading long ago.

In my experience, sharing the good news is less about trying to convert someone to my theological thinking, and more about sharing relationship with God. The approach definately changes after understanding the comprehensive scope of Grace, or at least it did for me. It can be shared though, I pray you don't loose hope.


On a larger scale, was there a purpose for Katrina? For the Sunami? I got pretty sick listening to all the judgment language coming from the church on those two events.

I think that it would have to be looked at in light of natural events. What is the purpose for hurricanes and tsunamis? What would the world be like without them? They're like lightning, tornadoes, clear days, earth quakes, and snow. The Earth itself is a living thing and must go through cycles to maintain that life.


I do not necessarily find direct blessings for doing the right thing, and despite my love for and implicit trust in God, I find much of the pain, loss and hurt to be quite random and meaningless, ie purposeless.

Have you seen the movie "City of Angels"? Nicolas Cage plays an angel named Seth who falls in love with a human (played by Meg Ryan). He becomes human to be with her. It showed him overjoyed with each human experience from eating to feeling pain. That's how I see pain, loss, and hurt. It is human experience and can therefore be tragically romantic.


I am quite ready to see the picture on top of the threads,and yes, I have had a pretty wonderful life.

God created you, and your purpose is to live. What if you could experience that picture in the here and now?

Looking forward to hearing from you,

Amie

[ozark]

I think that it would have to be looked at in light of natural events. What is the purpose for hurricanes and tsunamis? What would the world be like without them? They're like lightning, tornadoes, clear days, earth quakes, and snow. The Earth itself is a living thing and must go through cycles to maintain that life.





Amie,

How true. The way I understand it, without hurricanes too much CO2 would leach into the ocean, and we all might be dead. Earthquakes redistribute the earth’s nutrients—also vital. They are now saying life could not exist on a planet without tectonic plates. I am not sure of the purpose of tornadoes, but without the weather patterns that create them, we would all be in trouble.

But, it is interesting the way both environmentalists and fundamentalists use these things to say God or nature is mad at somebody.

[Amie]

But, it is interesting the way both environmentalists and fundamentalists use these things to say God or nature is mad at somebody.

It's as if the weather is able to demonstrate approval because it is beyond our control. Are all things beyond our control thrown at us by something though? I don't think so, though I see the point that God could control it. It brings to mind the movie "Bruce Almighty", when he said "yes" to all of the email prayers (when he was acting God). Chaos ensued. So even though God could control it, I'm not sure he should. Those who suffer at the hands of weather disasters may be the few comparatively.

Amie

[Lauri]

Isn't it interesting how we place blame or judgement from God for the destruction of hurricanes or tonadoes when in fact they have always been here but as the population grows more and more people are building their homes and cities in the paths of them. Is that God's fault? I think Davo said it best here:
That's why we (I) can sometimes suffer because of our (my) own stupidity -- it makes a mockery of God IMO to sheet home to God consequences of our (my) own actions. Yet even in and beyond this God can work marvelously I don't even know if we are having more of them or if we are just noticing them more because more people are getting hurt by them.

Lauri

[kevinbeck]

Great conversation. Questions surounding justice are (IMHO) some of the most important topics we can explore...theoretically and practically.

Funny how justice and fairness is important to "me" if I am the one feeling that I have been infringed upon. (Barry's take on ego is very appropriate here). But where does justice and fairness fit in when "I" am the one being "unjust." Might a parent in Niger think that it is just for her baby to have polluted drinking water while we in the US have clean water and when we in the US could ensure clean water for the entire world if we wanted to?

Recently I read something that has not let go of my attention. "Why did God create a universe when his creatures have to eat each other just to survive?"

Looking ofrward to exploring this some more with you. Blessings.

Kevin

[Donone]

Someone asked for some elaboration on my personal angst. If there is any issue that has refreshed me on Christian websites, whether preterist, emergent, inclusion or blogsville, I love being able to challenge current paradigms, especially theological. Yet in my role as a preacher, I find a pressure not to differ from the familiar path, especially since I serve an older group of believers. They tend not to discuss, but to dissappear, and this constantly wounds my fear of rejection when friends walk away. Its a preacher thing. I need to stop belly aching. By the way, the word telios, ie. end, purpose, completion, is one of the most exciting words in the greek new testament, and the phrase in Rom. 11 paraphrased in the message says it for me.

Everything comes from him,
Everything happens through him,
Everything ends up in him,
Always glory! Always praise!
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Blessings upon you all.
Don

[kevinbeck]

Don,
I understand your position in terms of ministering. I served in local church ministry for 17 years. How do you forge a path for people to travel to where they don't want to (or don't know they want to) go?

Maybe you can't. (Nothing personal, just a principle.) What sparks a person to forego the traditional ruts and find a new path? In my experience, it often arises from pain and suffering. Not always, but often. But that certainly isn't the easy route.

It might have been Thomas Kuhn who wrote that the only way the old paradigm fully gives way to the new, is when the adherents of the old die off--literally. I don't know how hopeful that is--maybe a bit morbid.

What has your experience been when engaging people with new ideas?

Blessings,
Kevin

[Amie]

Recently I read something that has not let go of my attention. "Why did God create a universe when his creatures have to eat each other just to survive?"

You mean a self-substaining biosphere? haha.. Is it true that creatures here have to eat one another? :)

Amie

[Donone]

I agree that something has to happen inside. The silliness of the church approaching Y2K and sitting throug the first Left Behind Movie triggered a hunger to get off the sidelines on the eschatology issue. Reading Sproul led to Russell, which led to painful and delightful paridigm shifts that continue to this day. I sat for several months with a preterist who was stuck, seeing everything fulfilled and not seeing any kind of message for future believers. Asking the question, "what is the gospel?" has led me to embrace comprehensive grace, fulfilled grace. It seems that you leaders at Presence must have a purpose in your educational pursuits. Do you think the present thinking in the churchs will change, or like so many, should we just walk away from attempting to have groups banding together to encourage better ways of loving and service and liberating the truth from present misrepresentations?

I really want to know because I have a decade left and am approaching complete burnout in pastoral ministry. Phoenix is a big city, should I put up a sign and gather a group to learn face to face, or leave it on the web?

Maybe thats a different thread, but it is all about my purpose as a communicator

Don

[Barry]

I agree that something has to happen inside. The silliness of the church approaching Y2K and sitting throug the first Left Behind Movie triggered a hunger to get off the sidelines on the eschatology issue. Reading Sproul led to Russell, which led to painful and delightful paridigm shifts that continue to this day. I sat for several months with a preterist who was stuck, seeing everything fulfilled and not seeing any kind of message for future believers. Asking the question, "what is the gospel?" has led me to embrace comprehensive grace, fulfilled grace. It seems that you leaders at Presence must have a purpose in your educational pursuits. Do you think the present thinking in the churchs will change, or like so many, should we just walk away from attempting to have groups banding together to encourage better ways of loving and service and liberating the truth from present misrepresentations?

I really want to know because I have a decade left and am approaching complete burnout in pastoral ministry. Phoenix is a big city, should I put up a sign and gather a group to learn face to face, or leave it on the web?

Maybe thats a different thread, but it is all about my purpose as a communicator

Don
Hey Don,
I'm not Kevin, [not usually anyway LOL] so I have no intent to answer for him. However IMHO there is no correct answer to your most excellent question. It is close to asking, should I be a carpenter or an engineer?

Personally I left "church" quite a while ago. I find church in many places now. Your choices to be productive are just that.

However if you feel "burnt out" there may be a "balance" issue here you may look at. Sometimes we may feel that we owe certain people something which may affect our balance in life, when in fact nothing at all is owed other than love which is not exclusive but inclusive. Not that it is your case but that it is a common feeling in your situation.
If I was out of place please tell me.
Barry

[kevinbeck]

Don,
If you are feeling burnt out, your spirit is telling you something. What do you think it is?

I know I felt that way for a long time, and the longer I let it go w/o admitting what I kew to be true inside, the worse I felt.

I don't know if thinking inside churches will change. Perhaps as people within the organizations transform (and many are) people will simply walk away. In this sense, churches may be a "way station...a place where folks can encounter certain experiences before they are ready to move on. In that way, churches are not necessarily a bad thing, and neither is walking away. "When I was a child...when I became a man."

It seems to be that in our world of instant worldwide commnication that connecting with people can take a variety of forms.

I gotta run. be back later to pick this up.

Kevin

[davo]

In this sense, churches may be a "way station...a place where folks can encounter certain experiences before they are ready to move on. In that way, churches are not necessarily a bad thing, and neither is walking away. "When I was a child...when I became a man."
Thanks Kevin, that certainly spoke to me :) . It's been two years now since I've graced [darkened :D ] the doors of where I once attended religiously -- and how marviously I feel for it; oops, sorry for the emotionalism :biglaugha:

[Barry]

I skimmed through this tread from the beginning. It's a good one!

Originally IMO it seems that Amie's question about "purpose" leaned a little in the direction of some type of "validation". IMO not so much the meaning of life but some specific application needing to be found and applied. That's what I read between the lines. Amie will correct me if I got it wrong.

So what then is the meaning of life that is linked to our purpose? I would say the the church discussion is somewhat relevant to that. It is not that church today needs to be validated or not. It is just a matter that it can have it's place it's application.

IMO the larger issue of where that "place" stands within is "relationship".
Relationship is a big word. It deals with a lot of issues and touches on the very deep topic of "what is consciousness"? But one quickly finds one's self drowning in the depths of that which may not yet be more fully understood.

But there can be an appreciation of what happens when your head goes underwater. You really don't want it to stay there but it is still interesting as an experience. Stay just a little longer than you should and you touch helplessness, and dependence, and peace as you somehow know "I am not alone". Then you manage somehow to come back up and you say, "I want to somehow carry this with me in my everyday life".
We touched upon something that we perhaps cannot define. But we felt it.

Life is about relationship. Life is about consciousness.
When Moses asked "Who shall I say has sent me". The answer, "I am who I am".
If God is "I am who I am" then who are you and who am I?
People who can get over themselves and be deeply in love with each other.
JMO
Barry

[Lauri]

Hi Everyone,
I'm back here again. First of all I have a praise. For anyone who has been praying for our job situation, Andy started a new job today :clap2: Now the reason I'm posting it here is because of all the things that happened for him getting this particular job were very interesting and I guess could have been coincidental but it sure seemed like there was divine hand in it all. This is a long story so bear with me.

You might remember I shared earlier that Andy had a lead for a job in Tucson. Well, he was recomemded for that job by a friend (Matt) from his job at Northwest. Andy did get an interview for the job in Tucson. The day he got the ticket and info about the interview he got a call from Matt saying he got an offer from another airline in Orlando and he was going to take that job because he has a lot of family there. When he told the job in Tucson about it they said if I hire that Andy guy is he going to do the same thing? (not reflecting well on Andy) Well a little while after that he got a call from Northwest and he found out he is very close to getting called back there in the Twin Cities. A little while after that he got a call from another job he interviewed for the week before delivering ice. It would be seasonal job for the summer. We are also still waiting to hear about another job he interviewed for here. There is also still the possiblity of someone taking over the hanger here and him getting hired there. Well he decided to take the ice delivery job to buy us some time to see if any of those things panned out. He decided not to go to the interview in Tucson because of all the stuff that happened there with Matt and he would have had to turn down the Ice delivery job. Now I don't know if all those things happened on the same day for a reason or if it was all coinsedence. All I know is our heads were spinning and we hope we made the right decision. Time will tell. I guess Byron Katie would say it was the right decision because it was the decision we made. Any way thanks for all your prayers. Now you can pray that we will be able to come down for the conference. It's not looking real promising but I'm not ruling it out because as we saw a lot of things can change quickly.

Lauri

[Paige]

Wow Lauri, when it rains it pours, lol? From what I understand, Andy's job is temporary, but that is a good thing because there are 2 job possibilities in your area that could be promising. Did I get that correct? :)

If so, then it sounds like we still need to praying, but also that prayer has been answered. :)

Paige

[Lauri]

Paige,
Actually there are three possibilities, but otherwise correct, we still need prayer but prayer was answered!! :o

Lauri

[Paige]

OK, I'm still praying! :)

[kevinbeck]

Lauri,
That is good to hear. I'm very happy for you and Andy!:biggrinbounce:

Please let us know how things go.

Blessings,
Kevin

[Amie]

I guess could have been coincidental but it sure seemed like there was divine hand in it all

I told you about this earlier, but to fill others in - I got the part time job that I didn't want. I filled the application out online as a joke, to release some tension in pursuing jobs that I really wanted.

They called me, and I went in for the interview - then took the job. I'm working part time at Old Navy (clothing store). The "team" I'm on unloads the trucks, and displays the clothes.

I didn't want this job, because of my personal hang-ups. Now that I took it, I'm working through them. (Lauri pointed out the pun, I assure you it wasn't intentional, lol!)

Anyhow, it's strange that I got the job that I didn't want and it has been very rewarding personally.

Just as things were looking down for you guys, Andy got the call from the ice job.

I'm not sure how I feel about purpose persay, but it does seem that God intervenes in our lives at times - and in the most unexpected ways.

Amie

[Lauri]

Everyone,
I would like to revisit this subject if you don't mind. I would like to ask some questions and hear some of your personal experiences if you don't mind. I was wondering about the subject of God's calling. Kevin I know you and some others here, are or have been in ministry. Did you feel like God "called" you into that, if so what was your experience of that? Was it just a strong desire or something more personal. When you went to a different church or ministry I'm sure you prayed about it, maybe for guidance or direction, how did you know when God answered your prayer, how did you recieve that guidance or direction. Amie, When you started the WomenBeyond ministry did you feel God leading you into that or what? I'm asking all this in reference to all that has happened to us lately. It seemed God was taking us to Tucson then suddenly that changed. Then it seemed like we were going to stay here and now suddenly, maybe not. I have prayed for God's direction and said I was willing to go where ever but how do you tell when God answers. When you are faced with a big decision and you pray about it how does God answer you, or how do you recieve that answer. I'm really curious to hear some of your experiences of how you've recieved direction from God, from anyone, not just Kevin or Amie. Also do you think God still "calls" people into certain ministry's today, like he did Paul to preach to the Gentiles? Is there more to our calling than to simply love God and love each other? Do you think God calls people into certain careers other than ministry? Well I guess that's enough questions for now. Thanks for indulging me.

Lauri

[Barry]

Hi Lauri,
If there is a "calling" it may be described perhaps in terms of "peace".
Example:
I need a car but cannot afford much so buy a second hand one. Prayed about it and out of the blue someone brings up the subject that they have a car for sale. Well looks like a good deal.
Buy the car and the transmission fails 2 weeks later. (Not an actual occurrence just a hypothetical)
For every place there is rain there is another place that has sunshine. For every place there is sunshine there is rain somewhere else.
Peace when it rains, and peace when it shines.
IMHO, pray, make your best choices that you can, be at peace.
Sometimes the regret of making errors and or the frustration of not knowing for sure is a bigger problem to us than the actual problems themselves because such things can easily distract us from just living.
It doesn't mean God is inactive or doesn't bail us out at times. I just means that living life has more purpose than looking for purpose.
JMO, Barry

[Paige]

Lauri,

I agree with Barry above. There are tiimes also in big situations like what you and Andy are facing, that we prayed for God to "close" the doors on what would not be the best for us. God answered that, and it was then very simple to move forward. I don't think it always goes that way, but we were thanking God for closed doors on many different occasions over the years.

Paige

[kevinbeck]

Lauri,
You ask some really good questions. And I feel a little awkward answering it on a message board. It seems so personal that a face-to-face conversation would be better. But since we're a thousand miles apart, I'll offer a few words.

As Barry and Paige mention, this is stuff that we all wrestle with--especially at critical junctures of our life. "Does God want me to do this or that? X or Y?" I'm hearing the words of the old Clash song in my head, "Should I stay or should I go?"

In my experience, at these critical junctures I've wanted some direction in making the "right" decision. To have some sense of certainty that everything will be alright, that I will be taken care of. I think that's pretty normal. Who really wants to run headlong into a situation that might bring great distress? This tended to be driven by my own fears. That's not a condemnation...just an observation.

Regardless, of which choice I made, I had to make a decision one way or another. I normally "knew" (for no better way of saying it) in my gut whcih decision I would make. There could have been many factors fueling this. My own conscious/uncouscious wants, God's call, synchronicity, or whatever. Every time--without exception--I made the "right" decision. Maybe it was right b/c it was the decision I made.

This dosn't mean it was easy or painless or without stress. But it was just somehow "right." I don't think there is a formula for determining which course to go. I do believe that if fear of the unknown is what is preventing you from making a decision, then that fear is something you must address. God is with you in your desision making process and will be regardless of which way you go.

I;m guessing you have a sense deep down what you want to do. Really want to do. Listen closely. What is that small, still voice saying? You already know the answer.

Blessings,
Kevin

[backtothefuture]

This is such a good questions, and the answers very good. I find my self questioning everything I ever thought was of God theses days.
Partly do , from my jump from fundamental to fulfilled grace. I still haven't been able to connect it all. For some reason, giving up the old way of thinking seemed like I had to throw out everything else.
But I am not sure that is correct.
I do think that lots of my decisions have been or not been because of fear. So that was a good eye-opener for me.
We at times in our lives have made decisions that we thought for sure were of God that turned disastrous, and then there have been times that everything went great.
I think what I am learning now, is not to label it as of God or not. I think its all from God, or because of God and we just deal now with what ever is on our plate.
Not easy at times, but we have been able to walk through some of the disappointing times take a deep breath, not beat ourselves up and keep going.
My husband may be loosing his job. We have prayed for a year, for the stress to let up and something to open up. Nothing so far. We went up together, I say, if it happens, we go down together. We have eaten out of food pantries before in our life. Actually that was one of the best times in our marriage. Randy was out of work. We had not a penny, but we made it through.
Its my fear, that I need to look at more.
blessings,
Nancy

[Amie]

Lauri,

Do you believe in love at first site? Doctors today define it as immediate strong chemistry between two people - and then the relationship works. If the relationship doesn't work, it's never love at first site even though the chemistry on day one was the same.

Well, maybe the "call of God" is similar. How things work out evidences to us whether or not God supposedly ordained something. We tend to judge the outcome.

This is similar to that thread on "God's will". If I can know that God's will was redemption/life for his creation, I cannot know his will beyond that. If WomenBeyond sprung forth from redemptive life, then it may have been a call. I can't honestly know that though.

I don't know that God willed my little family to move to Texas when we did. I think God has made himself known in my life more than once. Testimony ;):

We couldn't afford to move the contents of our home (which were already in storage back then) to Texas when we came. We had stuff for our son's room, a TV, an ice chest on loan, and an electric skillet. I was pregnant with my daughter and very sick. We had one vehicle and hubby worked two jobs so I never had it. We had to wash clothes at odd hours and pray that no emergencies came up. I still feel sad thinking back to not being able to see my son off to kindergarden..

Anyhow, the house we found to rent didn't have a refrigerator in it and there was NO way we could afford one. Some friends of an in-law gave us one that I promptly cleaned, plugged in - didn't work.

We had just scraped out of homelessness, two of our pets died, and life frankly was a steady uphill battle. I ran into the backyard and just cried out to the stars. I felt so at a loss that I didn't even know what I wanted. My heart was laid bare before God. To use Nancy's words, I was "broken".

My husband came out - having gotten off work early. He said to me "I can't believe this. You are not going to believe this..."

"..there is a refrigerator sitting right next to our drive way with a sign on it reading FREE". The house next to us had a "for rent" sign up, so I called it to see if the refrigerator was theirs. It was and they told us to take it. It worked great and was newer than the one that I'd hoped in before.

Someone had to have carried it out front, as I ran to the back of my house - because I had just been looking out that window. I feel to this day that was from God. Do you think that's right?

It's such a personal thing. I agree with Kevin that there seems to be something in our gut that seems to make it seem clear. To tell you the truth, I don't know yet whether WomenBeyond is "from" God. I am sure that it is "to" him though.

Amie

[Lauri]

Everyone,
Wow, thank you so much for your heartfelt responses, they have definately helped to calm my anxiety!
Barry you wrote: IMHO, pray, make your best choices that you can, be at peace.
Sometimes the regret of making errors and or the frustration of not knowing for sure is a bigger problem to us than the actual problems themselves because such things can easily distract us from just living.
That speakes volumes to me and is such good advise as I get distracted by the what if's all too often.

Paige,
I too have prayed the open/closed door prayer and have definetly felt God doing that at times, like the whole Tucson thing, that door was open until the last minute it shut, not tightly but enough to not want to push it back open again.


Kevin you wrote: I do believe that if fear of the unknown is what is preventing you from making a decision, then that fear is something you must address. God is with you in your desision making process and will be regardless of which way you go.
Thanks Kevin, that's oh so true for me. Thanks for reminding me that God will be with us in our decision regardless of which way we go. I know that but need to be reminded. I don't need to be "right" I just need to trust God.


Nancy you wrote: We at times in our lives have made decisions that we thought for sure were of God that turned disastrous, and then there have been times that everything went great.
I think what I am learning now, is not to label it as of God or not. I think its all from God, or because of God and we just deal now with what ever is on our plate. I can sure relate to that, and the good thing is we don't have to deal with it alone, God is right there beside us cheering us along.

Amy,
Thanks so much for sharing your story, it brought tears to my eyes. I definitely belive the fridge was from God!! I have had a few of those moments in my life were I knew it was definitley God. I wish I had more but maybe I do and I only notice the really big ones and attribute them to God.
You wrote: Well, maybe the "call of God" is similar. How things work out evidences to us whether or not God supposedly ordained something. We tend to judge the outcome. Wow that was really profound to me. why is it we only attribute the good outcomes to God, if the outcome is bad we think it's us who screwed up and tried to handle it on our own. If the outcome was bad, maybe that's not the right word, if the outcome is not what we hoped it would be then it must not be from God. There's alot of ego there isn't there. It goes back to what Nancy said it's all from God, and what Barry said, God brings the rain and the sunshine. And it's all good! I also like what you said that your not sure if WomenBeyond is "from" God but your sure it's "to" Him, that's a great way to look at it!

Thanks everyone, this has really been very helpful!!

Lauri

[backtothefuture]

Lauri,
Thanks so much for sharing here. I have learned so much from you and all of you guys.
As I am transforming (from resident alien :eek: to me:biggrinbounce:) I do have more up days than down. Especially coming from a mind set that said if things didn't work out then it wasn't of God. Or I didn't pray enough etc.
Its still easy on some days to fall into that thinking, if its good its from God, if its bad its not the right kind of prayer.
Thanks for your input.
And all you others. (You guys aren't the other others are you?:biggrinbounce: )
Nancy

[Paige]

I too, appreciate the sharing. What I noticed was the phrase "didn't work out". After reading what everyone has shared, it popped into my mind to ask if we can ever really say things don't work out? Everything works out, or life has stopped; know what I mean? (Everything just doesn't always work out the way we picture it "should".)

Amie,

The fridge was from God! :)

Paige