living in sin

[Dano]

Hello everyone! It's been a long time since I've written anything here. I hope everyone is doing well.

I'm going to get married this October to the most wonderful person I've ever met. We have been going to a community church for several months and enjoying it for the most part... good music, message, and the people seemed nice. However, in recent weeks, we began to notice a sort of change in how we were treated... distance, getting ignored. Someone asked Jessica, "what's with Daniel?" I dont even know him! We asked our pastor if we could get married in the church and if he would marry us. He, normally a bubbly man, became completely serious as he fumbled around in front of us and said, "I think so." It was so awkward and impersonal, and it left us feeling hurt. We suspect he thought we were already married.

Eventually he emailed us and invited us to a local cafe to meet and get to know eachother. When we arrived, the cafe was closed and no one was around. After waiting a few minutes, we found our pastor upstairs (the cafe is inside a larger, fairly empty building). We were under the impression that we would get to know eachother over coffee and a muffin, or something. He walked us down a hallway and there we stood. Again, another very awkward experience. He looked at me and asked where i work, then he asked Jessica where she works... fine, we told him. Knowing very well that we live together, he asked if we do, then told us that that was the main issue. Finally he asked what our desires are, and we expressed them. He told us he would not marry us because our marriage already began, and that we should rush to the court and get legally married ASAP, then anounce to the church that we are married. Rather than a traditional wedding, like we desire, he suggested that we have a party in October to celebrate our marriage.

Now, is it just me or does this sound strange? I know that many, many "church folk" consider living together before marriage, "living in sin," but we feel that he is untrustworthy and even beating around the bush by not telling us how he really feels. The more people at our church learned about our living situation, the more distance we felt from them. We just want to have a wedding ceremony. We love each other and are not shameful.

We ended up expressing our feelings to the pastor and told him that we were going to start fresh and find a new church.

Any thoughts on this? Anyone ever have something similar happen? I would appreciate your thoughts.

Dan

[Paige]

Hi Dano, so nice to hear from you again! We've missed you.

As for the Pastor, I'm guessing that it goes against his personal convictions to marry people "in the church" who haven't "waited". (Just my guess, but it has happened before and I've heard of other Pastors who have that as a standard.) To him, that may be tantamount to condoning behavior that he sees as sinful. I'm also guessing that it is more hurtful for him not to be upfront about it as you stated in your post.

This really is a loaded topic because in reality it goes both ways. We have beliefs about grace that we would not give up if someone who disagreed with us asked us to, so I can understand this Pastor not being willing to give up his belief when he sees it the way he sees it.

I think your gut may be right, and perhaps the best thing to do is to look for another place to get married and fellowship. If you're feeling particularly brave, you might make another appointment with the Pastor and have a heart to heart. Maybe give him the opportunity to be completely honest with you and let him get his beliefs on the table, so to speak. Then, maybe you might get the opportunity to share how you see it, also? I don't know...

Anyway, congratulations on your upcoming marriage. May God bless you with many wonderful years together.

Paige

[Amie]

Dan,

It truly is good to see ya, even if you're just passin' through!


We ended up expressing our feelings to the pastor and told him that we were going to start fresh and find a new church.

Is that what y'all want? What would y'all want to happen?

Amie

[lynn]

Hi Dano,

I’m pleased to meet you. :)

The more people at our church learned about our living situation, the more distance we felt from them. It sounds like you and your fiancé have given your congregation some interesting things to talk about! lol Whatever happened to “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother” (Mat. 18:15). :confused: Never mind.

Basically I don’t blame the pastor or anyone else in your church. Their understanding of Scripture leads them to see living together as sin. They’re just tactfully trying to communicate that to you, I think. Hey, I’m glad John 8’s chapter about the adulterous woman is in Scripture. Otherwise they might not be so tactful! (Who among them would throw the first stone?!)

I’m still trying to work out the following arguments in my mind. What do you think?

1. Marriage is not longer spiritually valid, since, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage” (Luke 20:34-35). Since 70 AD, we live in “that age,” I think.
2. In Christ, as we all are post-70 AD, “there is neither male nor female” (Gal. 3:28). Having a roommate who is a girl is no different from having one who is a guy.
3. Because their “heaven and earth” Old Covenant universe passed away in 70 AD and because all biblical prophecy was accomplished at that time, not the smallest letter or stroke therefore remains of the Old Covenant Law (Mat. 5:17-18).

Even if your pastor and the world in general never accepts our fulfilled view, I think that we as a society are moving that way in practice. Compared to just two hundred years ago, look at how things have changed! :9_cool: Are you familiar with Scarlet Letter? :eek:

Love,
Lynn

[backtothefuture]

Hi Dano,
I am sorry for your hurt and what you are going through. If you really like the church and have a good fellowship group, I liked what Paige had to say. Maybe try another heart to heart with the pastor.
I tried that with mine and I ended up leaving church probably forever. I didn't want to stay cynical anymore, and to do that I had to leave. But at least I gave it a good effort before leaving.
The bottom line is, that there is probably not one "Christian" that doesn't have some skeleton in the closet according to Fundamental Christianity anyway.
I hope you and your lovely bride to be can find some peace in the situation and go forward with your celebration of love for one another.

This may not relate much but I read it in the paper over at bagel church today. I thought it was kind of funny anyway.

When Christianity ruled
There was a time when Christianity ruled over Western Civilization. We refer to it as "The Dark Ages."

Anyway, hope things work out for you.
Blessings,
Nancy

[Dano]

I dont have much time at the moment, but I wanted to thank you all for your replies. I respect our pastor's views, and by no means expect him to marry us if he doesn't care to. We just thought the whole interaction was uncomfortable... and it probably was for him too!

We desire to get married at a church we attend by a pastor who will marry us. The day after all of this happened, Jessica shared this event with some coworkers. There's a woman who works there, who happened to over-hear Jessica, and mentioned that she was a pastor at a local church and would marry us. She's going to give Jessica a tour of the church this thursday. She also invited us to come visit on Sunday. So things seem to be working out fine!

How would you define marriage in the new covenant, through the fulfilled prophecy lense?

Dano

[Amie]

There was a time when Christianity ruled over Western Civilization. We refer to it as "The Dark Ages."
ROFL!!

Dano,

That's funny in a way! I was thinking that it might work to ask a woman or gay Pastor -- they could probably empathize with your experience, heh.

Contextually, the folks surrounding Jesus defined marriage via the law. In the resurrection they were neither given in marriage, nor would they marry. Imo, that is because marriage will have been fulfilled when Jesus turned the Kingdom over to the Father. We all belong to God, yet still so many freely give themselves to one another.

If you have time to read, you will find A LOT that will interest you in this thread: http://talk-grace.com/showthread.php?p=6565#post6565.

As well, you may want to consider reading Max King's "Marriage and Resurrection" (http://www.presence.tv/cms/cov-marriage-and-resurrection.php).

It's so odd how religious leaders don't even seem to notice "common law marriage". Hmm..

Amie

[kevinbeck]

I see this topic is a little dated (no pun intended), but it reminded me of my former life. As a minister in a local church, I had people from every walk f life asking me to perform their wedding ceremonies. Once, a yound couple (early 20s) made an appointment. They had been together as a couple for a number of years, and had one child together and another on the way.

In the course of our conversation, they told me that the pastor of their church refused to marry them. Apparently, he would rather them have two children together and be unmarried than be married with children. What's more is that the young man's father was one of the charter members of the church. Besides that, the young guy attended the christian school affiliated with the church.

They were basically in tears telling me the story. And I was more than happy to marry them and as far as I know they are living happily ever after.

What's more important? The alleged 'sanctity' of marriage as framed by western institutional religion or people? Marriage was made for people, not people for marriage.

Kevin

[Me Again]

Not that it would make a difference with this pastor, but I would like to offer a perspective on the situation; not on what you should do about it.

It interested me that the pastor recommended that you go to the courthouse and have a civil ceremony. Now, my two boys married their wives in civil ceremonies; but biblically, what's up wid dat? Where in the bible is Caesar made the sanctifier of marriage? This goes back to the whole gay marriage debate. Where do Christians get the idea that we need to have a civil blessing on our marriage?

Secondly, I would ask you where in the bible anyone got married before a pastor/priest? There is no indication that I can find of any such thing. In fact, when Isaac married Rebecca, she simply showed up, went in his tent and they "got it on." Somehow, they made it about marriage; we can assume that - for she wasn't just another "roll in the hay." Covenantally it meant something to Isaac and Rebecca. But, nowhere do we see a dad walking Rebecca down the aisle (in fact, her dad stayed back home). Nowhere do we find a "church ceremony." We do find a reception in the NT, and they all got drunk off of really good wine that Jesus made.

The biblicists among us usually are farthest from being biblical. I don't have a problem with wedding ceremonies or civil ceremonies - but this idea that "living in sin" is even in the bible is hogwash. The best I can find, and this is even suspect, is that a promise is made (betrothal) and then consummation (that's sex for those in Rio Linda). If someone had sex in the bible without the promise, the man had to pay the father for deflowering his daughter. If she had already been deflowered, then maybe the guy paid her...not sure. :)

Anyway, do what your conscience says is right, and love each other forever (or until the end of the age). :) Man, am I full of piss and vinegar today or what?

ed

[LeeDamboiseII]

and Adam KNEW his wife... sex