Cover my hand over you

[Amie]

Exodus 33
12 ¶ And Moses said to Jehovah, Behold, You are saying to me, Cause this people to go up. And You, You have not told me whom You will send with me. And yet You have said, I know you by name, and also you have found favor in My eyes.
13 And now, if I have found favor in Your eyes, please make me see Your ways, and let me know You, so that I may find favor in Your eyes; and consider that this nation is Your people.
14 And He said, My presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.
15 And they said to Him, If Your presence does not go, do not cause us to go up from here.
16 And now by what can it be known that I and Your people have found favor in Your eyes? Is it not in Your going with us? And we are distinguished, I and Your people, from all the nations which are on the face of the earth?
17 And Jehovah said to Moses, This thing which you have spoken I will do. For you have found favor in My eyes, and I know you by name.
18 And he said, I pray, let me see Your glory.
19 And He said, I will cause all My goodness to pass before your face. And I will call out the name of Jehovah before your face. And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.
20 And He said, You are not able to see My face; for no man can see Me and live.
21 And Jehovah said, Behold, a place by Me! And you shall stand on a rock.
22 And as My glory is passing it will be that I will put you in a cleft of the rock; and I will cover My hand over you during My passing.
23 And I will remove My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face cannot be seen.

How do you think verses 19-23 played out?

[christyG]

Amie,
Great question!

I'm not sure and would be interested in everyone's thoughts. But I have read that the glory means weight, as in the worth. So I'm seeing this as something that is not visible. (sorry for the pun)...or maybe visible as a light...thinking out loud. But I do think that it was something that gave Moses a greater understanding of the true nature of God....

Christy

[Barry]

Just a thought:
Moses encountered the shadow only and not the substance which is likened to seeing only the back and not the face which was revealed in Jesus Christ.
John 1:17-18.

[Amie]

Just so you know where my train of thought is, I'm wondering if this has anything to do with "The Son of Man coming in His Glory".

I think that Jesus was in the process of coming through the Church. They were filled with the HS and Jesus spoke through the HS. This would be Jesus, in the Church - literally. I think that is tied to his ruling and reigning with those who were "beheaded". The idea that "cloud" in the OT, is understood many times as "Israel" also supports the theory that Jesus came in the Church (clouds).

I think that once Jesus came in full, the OC stuff passed away.. with fervent heat.

Anyhow, if Jesus was coming from pentacost until somewhere around AD 70, couldn't this mean that Moses (as in the body of Moses) missed his glory until they had hindsight?

I'm sure not saying I'm absolutely right, just wanted to get y'alls take on it -- even the different ones :)

Amie

[Barry]

Amie, your view may have merit IMHO. Interesting. There are verses to back up the idea in any case.
It does appear to have a "I will do such and such for you but there are limitations".
Barry

[Amie]

Barry,

I also agree with the shadow analogy. Could the shadow being placed over his face be like God's hardening the hearts of those in Israel who wouldn't believe? (Did he ever unharden them btw?)

Christy,

I agree with you as well in that when Jesus came again, his coming would not be visible. As well, if he came in the church (the "light to the world"), then it certainly would have emoted.

Amie

[Lou]

Could this be covental?

Moses (OC) saw the back side of God’s glory and through the New Covenant we can see fully God’s Glory, His face.

In verse 18 Moses asked to see God’s glory.



2 Co.4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


When Apostle Paul wrote these the New Covenant hadn’t yet came into fullness.

[ozark]

Lou,

I think that has a lot to do with it. As Amie said, in the transitional period they were beholding the glory of the Lord but not yet fully.

1When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. (I Cor 13:11-13)

12Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech—13unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. (I Cor 3:12-17)

The old creation could not look upon the face of the Lord and live.

11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. (Rev 20:11)

[Paige]

Doug,

I hadn't seen the connection w/Rev. 20:11 before in linked w/this topic. That really makes a lot of sense.

And I like your point, Amie about the possibility that the body of Moses missed His Glory until they had hindsight. My only question about that would be the timeframe. Maybe you covered this already and I missed it? Would the body of Moses have seen from hindsight just before they passed away?

Paige

[Barry]

IMHO
Matt. 21:31-32
Matt. 13:41
Hind site after destruction.
Barry

[Dano]

From glory to glory...

Was it because God’s radiance was reflected upon Moses so his face shone, so It wasn’t the actual face/presence of God but a model or representation of that glory Moses was reflecting to the people? (Contrary to the face/presence of God in this NC reality; we have direct conversation) And like the presence/face of God, it was “within the veil,” and not for the people to see.

We might say, this veil had boundaries/limitations to such a degree for the purpose of covering something from sight... Could God’s “hand” and the “cleft” in the rock symbolize His intentional covering/concealing in a similar way “veil” does? Likewise, from a human standpoint, blindness/hardness of the heart is also a failure to “see” because of a veil of ignorance, arrogance, or whatever.

In fulfillment, covenentally speaking, the “ministry of condemnation” was fading just as the shine from Moses’ face was fading in his day... or, if his face wasn’t literally fading, it was getting covered, which in a way could be seen as fading.

In connection to the “fading” of the OC, we have the lifting/removing of the veil in NC Christ, something which the first century saints needed the boldness to enter...to find “rest.” Christ reversed the face-to-back covenant with the face-to-face covenant. Rip away the veil and the enemies of the cross stood condemned, naked, and fearful in the presence/face of God.

I don’t know, but this is neat stuff for sure!

[Infinite Grace]

Dan,
Excellent. I really love you man, really really.

[Dano]

I love you too Ed

[Infinite Grace]

You can't have my Bud Light though...

[Amie]

Would the body of Moses have seen from hindsight just before they passed away?

They were "baptized by fire":

Matthew 3
11 I indeed baptize you in water to repentance; but He who is coming after me is stronger than me, of whom I am not able to lift The sandals. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire,
12 whose fan is in His hand, and He will cleanse His floor and will gather His wheat into the storehouse. But He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The "fan" in his hand is like a flour sifter. The good seeds pass through it, and the bad seeds (the chaff) fly out of it and onto the floor. It is the "chaff" that would be burned/baptized with fire.

I wonder if Jesus went through the "fire baptism" on behalf of those who would accept His atonement:

Matthew 20
20 ¶ Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came near to Him, along with her sons, worshipping, and asking something from Him.
21 And He said to her, What do you desire? She said to Him, Say that these two sons of mine may sit one on Your right, and one on Your left in Your Kingdom.
22 But answering, Jesus said, You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup which I am about to drink, and to be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized? They said to Him, We are able.
23 And He said to them, Indeed you shall drink My cup, and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized; but to sit off My right and off My left hand is not Mine to give, but to those for whom it was prepared by My Father.

1 Cor 3
15 If the work of anyone shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss; but he will be saved, but so as through fire.

What is the "fire baptism"? If it was a purification, then the body of Moses will have not seen salvation until after they were destroyed. They may have seen His salvation upon the completion of the OC, praying as they died.

Hosea 1
6 And she conceived again and bore a daughter. And He said to him, Call her name No Mercy, for I will not again still have mercy on the house of Israel; but I will completely take them away.
7 And I will have mercy on the house of Judah and will save them by Jehovah their God. And I will not save them by bow or by sword, or by battle, by horses, or by horsemen.
8 ¶ And she having weaned No Mercy, she conceived and bore a son.
9 Then He said, Call his name Not My People, for you are not My people, and I will not be for you.
10 Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which is not measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it is said to them, You are not My people, it shall be said to them, Sons of the Living God.
11 And the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, shall set over themselves one head. And they shall go up out of the land; for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Like Barry wrote:

Matthew 13
41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all the offenses, and those who practice lawlessness.
42 And they will throw them into the furnace of fire; there will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine out like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. The one having ears to hear, let him hear.

Is this speaking of a contrast between the "good" and "bad", or is it about all becoming righteous? What do y'all think?

Dano - Excellent, I agree with Ed. I wonder though, how could the glory of God have been reflected in Moses' face, if Moses could not look upon the face of God? I also wonder how it is that Moses saw God's back.

Enjoying digging into this will y'all, thanks a lot!

Amie

[christyG]

Amie,

Is this speaking of a contrast between the "good" and "bad", or is it about all becoming righteous? What do y'all think?
This months issue of Ancient Hebrew E-Mag is great and explains about the "good" and "bad" very well. In the eastern mind there must be both good and bad and the quest is for balance between the two--Soloman warns of not becoming too righteous -- Ecc. 7:16.

Great points about the fire of baptism!

I still feel like there is something we are missing....Or I am missing.;)

I'm not sure that we completely understand the hardnening of the hearts. From a Hebrew perspective how would they have interpreted this?

Still think his glory has to do with understanding of God....such as we still experience his presence through understanding... I will be at home tonight and can look up my book where I read about the Jewish understanding of the glory of the Lord. I don't think I'm explaining it very well.

What we're missing is the eastern mindset and total grasp of the language and word pictures being used very beautifully in this passage of Moses and the glory of the Lord.

Seems as though Moses was given a glimpse of the Glory (understanding---true nature of God) this was not a total picture, thus it faded. Moses was the only one to see this, so all others must not look on it at that time. The only reason there are no veils today is because we all have the glory (total understanding) in us. The glory dwells in us as it did in the tabernacle. Understanding God does not need to come throught the tabernacle of the OC any longer. But again what they were given were teachings(torah) pointing them to true understanding, but not the actual understanding itself. Does that make any since? Did they need hindsight to realize fully? Yes, it seems to me.


I think that Jesus was in the process of coming through the Church. They were filled with the HS and Jesus spoke through the HS. This would be Jesus, in the Church - literally. I think that is tied to his ruling and reigning with those who were "beheaded". The idea that "cloud" in the OT, is understood many times as "Israel" also supports the theory that Jesus came in the Church (clouds).

Interesting!

Christy

[Amie]

Christy,

I will be looking for the info :)

Interested,

Amie

[christyG]

Amie,

The perspective that was given in the book I read says that the Hebrew word for glory is "kevod" and means wealth or weight. God's worth would seem to be his essence, or true self. Another interesting point brought up is that the Hebrew for face is "paniym" and the book suggests that this is a synonym for "kevod", both meaning the essence of God or His presence. Paniym is translated presence in many instances, including in Genesis 3:8 when Adam and Eve hide themselves from the presence (paniym) of God.

Something that struck me about this is that God tells Moses that no one can see his face and live, but Jacob says he saw God's face and lived in Gen 32:30? The difference in these two circumstances seems to be the glory.

I'm sorry but I'm a bit of a disector (sp). I did some ammateur word study and found some interesting things. I just thought I'd throw them out for you to think about.

According to Strong's: "Back" in vs 23 of Ex. 33 is "achor" meaning hinder parts, back, hereafter, time to come, etc..."achor" is from the Hebrew word "Achiyra" which is a combination of two words:"ach" meaning brother and "ra" meaning bad or adverse, affliction,.... every other time this word (achor--back) is used it is referring to turning back or to turn back...(Ps. 9:3, 56:9...)

ALSO: "face" or "paniym" means the part that turns, foretime...found the same as mentioned before...that it is translated as presence many times.

Taking both of these into account, my thoughts then came to something else that I had read at Ancient Hebrew site about Hebrew view of time. It stated that the Hewbrew view their past as laid out in front of them (because they could see it) and the further in the past something was, the more "blury" it was because it was hard to "see". They likewise view their future as being behind them because they cannot "see" it. In reading the definitions above for back and face this seemed to maybe come into play.

Any thoughts?

[Amie]

Another interesting point brought up is that the Hebrew for face is "paniym" and the book suggests that this is a synonym for "kevod", both meaning the essence of God or His presence.

This reminds me of "over the face of the waters". God is as vast as the oceans, I could see how "paniym" would not be the literal eyes-nose-cheeks-face.


..but Jacob says he saw God's face and lived in Gen 32:30?

I'm not sure that Jacob's seeing is literal. It might be like "After wrestling all night, Jacob said 'I see'". It's like he finally 'got it', know what I mean?

Exodus 33
11 And Jehovah would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp. And his attendant, Joshua the son of Nun, a young man did not leave the middle of the tabernacle.

In the verses before 11, God's glory was in a pillar of cloud so I don't think this "face to face" is exactly literal either.


I'm sorry but I'm a bit of a disector

That's something we have in common :)

What you shared on front/back brings to mind the "little horn" that has eyes in the back of its' head in Daniel. I have a feeling that these things are connected.

The word "olam" is translated "world" and "for ever". It is related to the passing of time because of the cycle of the world (sunrise/sunset). "For ever" would be understood as "beyond the horizon" (which equates "that which is unseen"). I think that is connected to this discussion as well.

I feel that it is possible that "front" is "this age" and "back" is "that age".
The deal is though, that is God's hand covered Moses' is covered by the hand of God, how could anyone see the Glory of God reflected in Moses? I wonder sometimes how much of the law was given by God, and how much was from Moses (ie Mark 10:4-9).

I agree, we do not have all of the pieces put together. I'm intrigued though :)

Amie

[Amie]

I'm wondering if one could not look at the face of God and live until one is given an immortal body...

[christyG]

I feel that it is possible that "front" is "this age" and "back" is "that age".
The deal is though, that is God's hand covered Moses' is covered by the hand of God, how could anyone see the Glory of God reflected in Moses? I wonder sometimes how much of the law was given by God, and how much was from Moses (ie Mark 10:4-9).

Good point.


I'm wondering if one could not look at the face of God and live until one is given an immortal body...

That's the way I see it, but I think it's more. I think that we are now able to "see" the face of God, because his essence is in us all, but we just don't all realize it. How is that different from those in Moses' day? Not sure... But because I've read that the Eastern mind desires balance, (not good over evil, but good and evil) I think that something happened in the garden to cause imbalance. This made us unable to come face-to-face with God. Jesus restored the balance, thus restoring our relationship or ability to be present with God---face to face.

What I see Moses doing is trying to even up the scales (balance), but the stuff he stacks on his side keeps slipping off. Thus the law (Torah) "teaches" the OC individual little by little what is required to even the scales, they just realize it is not something known to man at that time. In other words, they know what they need (if they have correctly learned form the teachings - Torah) but they just have to find it. "They" found it in Jesus. He evened the scales. He restored balance.

I'm not sure it's about Moses not being able to clearly see God's Glory, it seems he did see a glimpse of it and what he saw was enough to stay with him even for a brief time. Kind of like a temporary tatoo:) . It's real while you have it, but it washes away. I think the glory he "saw" was real, but maybe because he lacked the daily face-to-face, the balance, it slipped off--to go back to my analogy before. The others could not look on it because they were so "off balance" even a glipmse would have sent them flying. Do you see where I'm going, or am I just babbling?

I've become a "Hebrew sympathizer" as of late. I think that Preterism (at least the Preterism I've been introduced to ) paints a very judgemental and even hostile attitude toward the OC, the Jews (Hebrews, Isrealites, whatever you want to label them as). I accept and understand that the OC is over and Jesus put it to it's end, but I am trying to have different outlook toward the OC. Just like your favorite pair of jeans they served the purpose, but just became "holy":biggrinbounce: (sorry I'm a dork) I think that there is alot of good to be learned from the OC if we just look at it with the right vision.

Done rambling.

[davo]

Great thoughts folks -- thought I'd throw mine in as well.

Moses [the law] was always associated with "the passing glory". He likewise saw the glorious Promised Land, yet in the plan of God never entered it, but only saw it "in passing" -- law was never to partake with grace and truth.

We see God 'face to face' in Jesus -- "he who has seen me has seen the Father". We see in Jesus grace and truth revealed in all its fullness; His light and His glory is what now shines on our faces, face to face with our Maker. And it is the revelation of this that brings us into His glorious presence -- again, face to face, or as Paul says: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, has shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ".

What Moses saw in passing, we have in Jesus.:)

[ozark]

ChristyG,

You make some good points. The Old Covenant was a shadow or type of the things to come. In it we see the things of Christ in types and shadows. It should not be disdained. Paul and the apostles did not preach anything they did not see in the Old Covenant. However, there came a time to leave the shadow behind for the substance of Christ. Those who would not leave the shadow behind indeed fell under God’s judgment. It is OK, IMO, to love the types and shadows, but to call them fulfillment does disservice to Christ.

[Amie]

Christy,

I love studying Ancient Hebrew stuff as well. I wonder if I've been guilty of showing disdain, since I haven't noticed it in others. I hope not. I'm sorry about your experience with preterists. There are more out there with the fulfilled view to interact with than only the preterists. Lately, I've even become aquainted with a part of Christianity in which many are "panmillennial" (it will all pan out) and inclusive. I hope that your interactions become more beneficial to your spirit.

I think that the leadership under (over?) the OC had become what would contrast true righteousness. They were made that way, imo, to a purpose. I'm pretty sure that any human being, given that much power, would have done the same. If that weren't true, then how could they have been true representatives, know what I mean? I often question whether they even knew better (and whether or not they knowingly denied Jesus).

Davo,

Your point was helpful to me on many levels, thanks for throwing it in!


It is OK, IMO, to love the types and shadows, but to call them fulfillment does disservice to Christ.

I agree. That reminds me of the view of Messianic Jews.

Amie

[christyG]

thanks guys for the responses:)

you're all great.

[Amie]

thanks guys for the responses:)

you're all great.

Hoping that this isn't too presumptuous as per the others.. "We're" great (including you :))

Amie