When To Help, When To Set Boundaries?

[Barry]

WHEN TO HELP, WHEN TO SET BOUNDARIES?

When we read the New Testament scriptures we find in the fellowship and relationships that we read about, many of the same struggles and questions that we today also face. While it is true that many of us here are reading these scriptures with our “first century fulfillment” glasses on, this doesn’t mean that key relationship issues are not the same today as they were back then. While the setting is quite different the struggles and questions may be very similar.

During the time of the changeover of the ages (from the cross to the destruction of Jerusalem AD 70), the Old Covenant was passing away and the new glory had already begun to shine. This affected both the Jew and the Gentile. The affect was a little different upon the Jews and the Gentiles, but it still affected both groups of people. In 1 Corinthians chapter 11 we can see that even the Gentile women were told to cover their heads while praying or prophesying, because of the angels. In short, “because of the angels” means, because of the law. At this time, the law had a great impact upon all the followers of Jesus. They were however in many ways escaping the deadly impact of the ministry of death and condemnation that was then passing away.

This is where we find ourselves in Gal. 6:1-5. In this setting we understand that the “fault” and the “temptation” of Gal. 6:1 is referring to the “fault” of and temptation of seeking to obtain a righteousness through the law. Paul’s points in Galatians parallel Jude’s points in Jude 20-24.

If a brother was overtaken in the fault of substituting the gift of righteousness with performance righteousness through the law, the Christian was told to restore such a one with the spirit of meekness and so bear the other’s burden if possible. This was at this time a dangerous endeavor. Those who began to lean toward a righteousness through the law had a lot of backing and persuasion. So persuading they were they had a bewitching affect (Gal. 3:1-3) upon others who had begun in the Sprit but were tempted by the flesh.

Since there were varying degrees to these points between Christians as well as between the Jewish and Gentile Christians this created a lot of struggles and questions in their relationships with each other. It is in this context that we find two (seemingly) almost contradictory statements by Paul in Gal. 6:1-5.
“Bear ye one another’s burden” (6:2)
“every man shall bear his own burden” (6:5)


In many ways it comes down to the classic question of when to help and when to set personal boundaries and frontiers in our relationships. Helping others is good, but don’t let others drag you down with them.

Setting boundaries and frontiers in our relationships is absolutely essential to our own well being, and ability to function. If this is not preserved then we are no longer able to help neither ourselves nor anyone else.

There is much to say about this subject and it is my hope that we can discuss this topic further, together. :)
What are your thoughts?

Barry DuPont

[Paige]

I agree with your thoughts Barry.

On another note, I find it difficult to explain to people so much of the context of the struggle between the NT believers as you explain here. For example: I know of so many who have been believers for years, they've read and re-read Gal. numerous times and they would get to ch. 6 and completely miss what you have pointed out in your article about the conflict. They would revert back to the thought that Paul is speaking about trespassing the "law" (whatever law it might be), and say, "See, Paul is telling us we need to keep the law."

Have you also experienced this? If so, how do you think this hurdle is to be overcome? I find it hard to recognize these things myself sometimes. I have years and years behind me of seeing and interpreting on a different level.

Thanks,
Paige

BTW, sorry if I've got this off-topic.

[Barry]

Hey sis!
Yea know what you mean. That was kind of the point of the above post. To touch on two subjects at once. The contextual meaning of fault and temptation as well as how this may parallel our own struggles today even though we are not in that setting.
IMHO we spend too much time trying to prove the original context and setting instead of just putting it out there and seeing what we can get out of it.
Mind you it is important IMHO to try to the best of our ability to present the fulfilled perspective and how that might change our view of things, we also benefit from just moving on.
Like selling something to someone by just assuming that they will buy it.
In stead of trying to convince someone to buy it, just go straight to how they are about to use it LOL.
In this way we can spend more time presenting the benefits and implications of how fulfillment is to be lived or applied. If this makes sense to some then we save a big step in just trying to prove it. And sometimes trying to prove something to someone that may not yet or ever be receptive to the idea.

In regards to setting boundaries in our relationships today, I think that it is something that really needs more attention. I think that fulfillment itself has something to tell us as well. We are redeemed. So is my neighbor whether friendly or not. So is my spouse whether the marriage is healthy or very ill. So are my coworkers weather nice or hateful. What does that mean to us and how do we proceed from here.
Love Barry
PS. Any thoughts?

[Paige]

In regards to setting boundaries in our relationships today, I think that it is something that really needs more attention. I think that fulfillment itself has something to tell us as well. We are redeemed. So is my neighbor whether friendly or not. So is my spouse whether the marriage is healthy or very ill. So are my coworkers weather nice or hateful. What does that mean to us and how do we proceed from here.
Love Barry

What it means to me is that instead of focusing my efforts on how to "fix" the people around me, I can learn from them and apply the lessons learned to myself. I can only control myself. If the diffferent way we see things causes conflict, I must trust God to show me how best to resolve that conflict in the way that Christ would. There were times that Christ invested lots of time in questioners and other times when he let people go on their own way. He had perfect discernment, and His discernment is what I need. Does that make any sense?

Paige

[Barry]

Those are some good thought imo Page.
What was in the back of my mind when bringing it up is the possible parallel between the present day traditional view which you brought up which places the fault as a fault against the law instead of a fault against grace (fallen from grace) and the present-day issues of setting appropriate personal boundaries and limits.

This is what I mean:
Much of the traditional teaching that we have received falls somewhat short in it's effectiveness to help us really love ourselves. This affects our ability to do what is loving for ourselves. This may result in our ineffective establishment of relationship boundaries and limits. We may allow others to manipulate us and belittle us because we have not ourselves come to terms with our self-worth and self-value. Now some of this cannot be stopped or avoided but still there is a difference that takes place when we love ourselves. Not a matter of strength of character but strength because of what we know.
If we do not love ourselves we will not know love and cannot love others effectively. The message of Grace helps us see and come to terms with God's love for us. In this we conclude our worthiness to be loved. Unless we want to argue with God LOL.
When we love ourselves we start living for the sake of living itself. Our purpose is living.
I'm rambling but somewhere there may actually be a point LOL.
When people are thinking of only there own needs and this affects us personally we need to be able to express ourselves in a productive way because it helps neither us nor them.
Many times we say and do nothing because we don't want to go through the unpleasant experience of seeing someone else's feeling hurt. When we do this fail to establish the appropriate boundaries and limits.
Fall in love with the God that loves us.
Fall in love with the person that God loves.
Fall in love with others whom God loves.
Sometimes love means limits.
Any thoughts?
Barry

[backtothefuture]

Gosh,
This is such a good topic. I wish I knew how to say what I really want to say.
I spent 30 years as a Christian, giving, being a servant, turning the other cheek,Helping, caring, nurturing, forgiving, all thinking that was what I should be doing as a Christian, only to find myself empty, so empty.
Then I went into counseling and heard, What do You want???What are You feeling???? What about your needs??? What's in this for you. Talk about conflict. I never ever thought about myself. At 54 years old, it has taken me a year, to figure out what color I even like.
Part of this problem I blame on coming out of a really fundamental back ground. Wives submit, keep quiet, good grief don't ever ask a question or think for yourself. Some things I figure now, I really didn't do out of the heart, but out of fear.
Setting boundaries is so hard for me. I am trying to do it more with my adult children and some days I start crying, because I then worry I have hurt their feelings.
I don't think God wants us to be doormats, and yet, we are suppose to be the face of Jesus. But is that at the expense of loosing yourself? Jesus was able to say the things he needed to say. He set boundaries. He walked away from places, took his time getting back to Lazarus, had the best wine, Told Peter he would Deni him and he didn't need to Analise everything he did.
Did he?
AGH!!!!!!!!!
Nancy:uhh:

[Barry]

Nancy, your post was so very important. Thank you for being so open and honest.
Very often, we were never taught as Christians to really love ourselves. We are taught sacrifice to the point where we lose ourselves.
We begin to think that what we think and feel is not important. This is our lot in life to be put on to give up our pursuit of happiness.
Dear sister, we have got to start thinking differently if we are going to make the positive impact that our lives are capable of making.
Loving ourselves does not make us selfish. It makes us realistic about what love really is and how it is to be applied.
Just a thought, just my opinion
Barry

[Bill]

Barry and Nancy,

I have many thoughts on this subject, but little time right now. Maybe this will help or at least provoke thought and discussion. It's an article from my blog I wrote about a year ago commenting on a song from Amy Grant's "The Collection" album.


All I Ever Have To Be

Written by Gary Chapman

When the weight of all my dreams
Is resting heavy on my head
And the thoughtful words of help and hope
Have all been nicely said

But I'm still hurting,
Wondering if I'll ever be
The one I think I am.

I think I am.

Then You gently re-remind me
That You've made me from the first,
And the more I try to be the best
The more I get the worst

And I realize the good in me,
Is only there because of who You are.
Who You are...

And all I ever have to be
Is what You've made me.
Any more or less would be a step
Out of Your plan.

As you daily recreate me,
Help me always keep in mind
That I only have to do
What I can find.

And all I ever have to be
All I have to be
All I ever have to be
Is what You've made me.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I love this song! It describes the sadness that results from the popular teaching of progressive sanctification.

When the weight of all my dreams
Is resting heavy on my head
And the thoughtful words of help and hope
Have all been nicely said.

But I'm still hurting,
Wondering if I'll ever be the one
I think I am.

I think I am.

The dreams mentioned here are the hopes of a changed life offered by those who teach progressive sanctification. Christians are encouraged to believe that their lives will gradually change and become more like Christ. Sometimes they are even told that there are things that they can do to speed up this process of change.

The heavy weight is the realization that change is not happening...and it hurts. We think that we are Christlike...at least we've been told that we should be, but we know that we aren't.

Then You gently re-remind me
That You've made me from the first,
And the more I try to be the best
The more I get the worst

And I realize the good in me,
Is only there because of who You are.
Who You are...

Hope is restored when God re-reminds us that He made us perfect in His sight from the moment we first believed.

Hope comes from realizing that trying to become what we already are just leads to failure.

Romans 5:20

The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

Hope also comes from realizing that our goodness comes, not from our own efforts, but from our being created in the image of Christ at the moment we believed.

And all I ever have to be
Is what You've made me.
Any more or less would be
A step out of Your plan.

Trying to change ourselves to become more like Christ is actually sin. He has already made us to be what He wants us to be. It is wrong to try to improve upon His new creation.

Galatians 6:15

For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

2 Corinthians 5:17

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

As you daily recreate me,
Help me always keep in mind
That I only have to do
What I can find.

Any Godly change in our lives is the result of God working in us. We are not even conscious of this change until it has already happened. Notice that this daily recreation is not contingent on our efforts or cooperation. It is the work of God alone.

And all I ever have to be,
All I have to be,
All I ever have to be,
Is what You've made me.

Isn't God wonderful!

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Barry,
When I told my counselor last year, my purpose in life was to suffer, I really did believe that. I have learned so much this year about Grace toward others. But I know my healing won't be complete until I absorb that same grace that is here for me.
It is so hard to think about me. When I have spent my entire life thinking about others and believing that was the right and only way.
Some how it had seemed wrong to have a self esteem problem, why, I was a Christian wasn't I.
Barry, how do we start to love ourselves and see that, that is OK? I have such conflict with boundaries because I don't think I am worth setting them most of the time, and I don't want to hurt anyone. And yet, I am the one wounded for letting everyone walk all over me.
Thanks,
Nancy

[Infinite Grace]

Sorry I came on this subject so late in the thread, but I wanted to address something that Barry wrote in the original post. Barry, you wrote about bearing one another's burdens, but that we were required to bear our own, and that it seems to be a dichotomy. Well, it is a false one, and let me explain.

There are two greek words at work there. Paul was a Hebrew, which meant he wrote in figurative language, stuff that could be visualized easily by his readers (and/or listeners). The first greek word for "bear" signified the overcoming that was experienced by the other brother. The other brother was overcome in a fault, or under a heavy load, one he couldn't bear alone. Christians were commanded by Paul to get in there and lift up that burden off of our brother. Get that shoulder under that yoke, and lift with the legs. Soon, that heavy burden will be off of our brother, and we can help him to finish the journey (this burden may also be likened to a large rock, or tree that falls on someone, we are responsible to get it off our brother, restoring him).

The second use of the word "bear" is a different greek word, which simply means our common load, that regular burden that we all carry as humans. We are to bear our own load, in that case. We should learn to "stand on our own two feet." This is perhaps where the idea of loving ourselves comes in. We MUST take care of ourselves FIRST - bearing our own load. But when we can do that, then we can help others who are overcome in a fault, a burden. We are unable to help bear another's burden if we cannot bear our own.

[Barry]

Hi Bill, and well come aboard!
You put up some nice stuff there IMHO.
If I've understood you correctly you are saying that we often force the issue and sometimes try to be something we are not. Anticipating a continual progression from God we get ahead and try and make it happen from our own potential.

Don't let me put words in your mouth brother, so let me know if that's in the ball park so to speak.

Speaking from the perspective of "fulfilled redemption" and "covenantal end times" [http://talk-grace.com/showthread.php?t=52] it is my opinion (don't quite know what your thoughts are on such things my brother but that's cool anyway) that some of what some today call, "progressive sanctification" is better understood if placed back in the first century when they were putting of the old creature as the old covenant was then passing away. This IMHO means that they were putting off the outward man the old man of self-righteousness and outward religion and putting on the free gift of the righteousness of God which changes the heart.
In any case it seems that we are seeing the same thing as to how it works out in the end :).
Would you PM (private message) me on your blog address or maybe put it into your personal info, would like to check it out bro.
Nice to have you here.
Barry

Hey Nancy.
Apparently we get a lot of "programing" through the past stuck in our brains :). Perhaps re-programing takes some time.
Some of that can perhaps come from loving brothers and sisters. We lift you up sis. You are completely worthy of your own love. You are unconditionally accepted by God. You will find strength in love. This is where we do better! Even our service to others is better after we grow in this love. Because then it is more realistic and truthful. It is not that love itself has limits, it is that love must prioritize.
Just my own thoughts.
Barry

[Amie]

Wow Barry,

What a topic! This one strikes me dead center in the heart.

An example of a personal boundary is that I would not stay in relationship with a person who hit me. I'm speaking from experience.

A person once told me "If a dog bites, it bites. We choose whether or not to stay in a yard with a dog that bites."

The biting IS NOT that dogs' personal burden. That dogs' personal burden is the pain that it bears within.

Some people who hit, ie, do so because they identified with folks who hurt them in some way. They felt that they deserved it, and they turned their anger on themselves to survive the pain that they were experiencing. They could love Mom or Dad, because Mom or Dad was right. They had no right to be sad (their thinking), unless they were sad about their making another stupid mistake. They buried the pain.

Maybe the person who hits was abandoned, and unknowingly tries to control their circumstances. They bury the fear that they felt when they were abandoned, so they could survive. They bury the anger at their parent (if it was a parent) which created rage.

We might recognize that people who hit are fearful, sad, angry, feel unworthy, etc, but until they are willing to bear such burdens, we CAN"T bear it with them. Their hitting is an acting out of a burden that they are unwilling to bear consciously.

Here though, I am equating burden with pain and I'm not sure that goes with biblical burden very well. Biblically, what was the burden if not the weight of the law? If Jesus's burden was light, what was it?

Amie

[Barry]

Good points Amie.
Along the last sentences of your post IMHO the burden that Jesus was offering which was lighter was the self-sacrifice of the first-fruit, first century christian.

Peter along these lines says, "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?".
Unfortunately badly translated and often misunderstood as meaning that the righteous were barely saved. Rather meaning that the Christians would be saved through suffering as the first-fruits sacrifice and if the first-fruits were about to suffer just imagine the suffering of those who were about to endure covenantal destruction.
Paul brings this up IMHO very lightly in Gal. 6:4-5 as the differing roles of Jew and Gentile but speaks harder in Gal. 5:10 "but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be" in regards to the die hard Judaizers who were trying to get the Gentile Christians to be circumcised.

On a lighter note, if you chose to observe a day or not or eat this or not eat that, that was your burden and your work. But keep it too yourself and bare you own load not putting it on anyone else. IE, glory in your own thing.
The "lest you be tempted also" of Gal. 6:1 is something that we have a record of in Gal. 2:13 and 2:14. Both Barnabas and Peter had been affected to some extent with this temptation.
Just my thoughts.

In regards to your most excellent points Amie, we do well to try to understand the root problems of where and why people act the way in which they do. And as you have stated we must nevertheless establish boundaries where we must.
On the whole however, we do well in placing limits well before physical abuse sets in when possible.
The fear of hurting the others feelings is not helping them and certainly not ourselves.
Just my thoughts.
Barry

[backtothefuture]

I would like to know also, if Jesus burden was light what was it. That comment just knocked me off my chair.
I keep thinking this past year, what am I missing here God. Is the bible really so simple that it is flying right past me, or is it so hard, that know matter how hard I try to understand I just don't get it.
If setting boundaries at my expense, causes someone else pain, I don't know how to deal with that, or do it in a healthy way I suppose.
Nancy:confused:

[Amie]

If setting boundaries at my expense, causes someone else pain, I don't know how to deal with that..

Is it our boundaries that cause them pain, or their behavior?

Amie

[Amie]

Barry,

In leiu of what you wrote, do you think that we have a burden today?

Amie

[backtothefuture]

I think both sometimes Aime. Sometimes its a loose loose situation, at least in my life.
Nancy

[Barry]

Hi Amie
IMHO yes and no. LOL ROFL.

The law does not exist but we emulate it very well. The reflection is still there IMO.
Also as Ed pointed out there is still the burden of life itself. However I believe personally that the burden in question was what would be carried to the end of the age.

In regards to our outworking in the new age I believe that the application of burden and boundaries is not overly complicated once we get a handle on a few basics.
The first fruit sacrifice is behind us. Our boundaries are to be worked out in view of the abundance of life.
As your previous post points to the problem is often that we don't want to hurt others but they need the limits set (even thought they may get all upset), just as much as we need to set those limits for our own benefit.

Some of this can be seen in regards to our financial success. Our failure to set boundaries and limits will impede our ability to move forward ourselves. In regards to people trying to have a piece of our time the same thing applies. If we cannot say "no" and "sorry" when we need to we are encouraging the other to continue along the same path that is is beneficial to no one.

At the back of all this is our love for others. If we love others we want them to grow.
Many relationships are built around the "give you a fish" need satisfy.
A lot of people feel needed by being a giver. Someone needs a fish so we give them a fish. They need a fish tomorrow and we feel need and like it. Someone else comes along and show the other how to fish. We get jealous because it has undermined our need to be needed for which the relationship was built around. We are often more selfish than we realize when we don't love ourselves enough to set boundaries which often is what the other person actually needed.
Our relationships should be built around the honesty of the loving intent to see the other grow. Yes in some ways it is more dangerous but it is more rewarding in the long run.
IMHO these two points parallel each other.

Hope my rambling made some sense. LOL
Barry

[Amie]

I think both sometimes Aime. Sometimes its a loose loose situation, at least in my life.
Nancy

I agree that our choice to preserve boundaries might hurt them emotionally. I feel though, that they have power over that pain. They can choose not to "bite", know what I mean?

I was abused as a child. I don't let the folks who abused me around me or my children. I left the door open though, if they want to work toward a healthy relationship. They don't. Some other family members (and them) wanted to blame me - to hold me responsible. It is not my fault that the family is in shambles and it is not my fault that they continue to choose to act that way.

It is my fault that I want to break the cycle and offer my children as much of a healthy life as I am able. It is my fault that I made it not okay for people to hit or verbally abuse me.

Feeling guilty for those things was something that they engrained so that they could justify their actions. I know the guilt well, it is a painful suffering.

Amie

[Amie]

Barry,

What you said made perfect sense and this issue needs addressing over and over again imo.

I guess what I was referring to was the burden of living. edit--> (After some thought, the "burden" was seeming the work itself and not the guilt..) <--edit There's so much to ponder...

Amie

[Bill]

Hi Barry,

Thanks for the warm welcome! I've added my blog address to my profile now so you can check it out.

You said, "If I've understood you correctly you are saying that we often force the issue and sometimes try to be something we are not. Anticipating a continual progression from God we get ahead and try and make it happen from our own potential."

Yes you have understood me correctly. I think so much harm comes from expecting God to change us, whether it be change in ourselves or those around us. If we could just learn to accept ourselves and each other as God has accepted us I think there would indeed be peace on earth.

I also share your thoughts on the perspective of "fulfilled redemption" and "covenantal end times" as you put it. You'll find that everything on my blog is from a Preterist and therefore (imho) a Universalist perspective. I think the area where I can learn from you the most would be the "transitional" period leading up to 70ad, but I'm sure we'll get into that as time goes on. :)

Peace, love and understanding,

Bill

[Amie]

Bill,

I saw something along those lines in another discussion recently - about wanting something from God (physical healing, prosperity, etc), yet not God.

All,

After some thought, and reading your thoughts :), I feel that "burden" is synonymous with "work". We do not have the work of the 1st century church, we just love. Maybe that's work in an of itself - that and as Ed and you said, just being human.

Maybe that's how the saying was born "That which is right, is not always easy."

Amie

[Barry]

All,

After some thought, and reading your thoughts :), I feel that "burden" is synonymous with "work". We do not have the work of the 1st century church, we just love.
Amie

Amie, that would be my assessment as well or close to it I think.
They rested from their works once the end had come. Each were judged according to their works. Each had to bear their own burden. The "mature" (in Grace) one could step in and bear the others burden by correcting toward grace in meekness (as Paul had done with Barnabas and Peter and the others), not thinking that they were something else themselves (in flesh and blood), or they too would be tempted by the ego man.
The end of all this was however at the end of the old covenant in AD 70. As such then they that were mature in grace were fulfilling the law by bearing the others burden (being a Jew to the Jew and a gentile to the gentile to bring to a place where their were neither).

From here we configure the reflection of such things in regards to the truth of the simplicity of love. IMHO the reflection of such things exists because growing in the simplicity of love requires the reflection of the past status. It may look the same but it is not. What we have in view of fulfillment must still be acquired experientially and historically.
Love both, goes out of it's way, and sets boundaries. Love adopts wisdom and prioritizes. But the love that will change the world is love that has found a home. If it doesn't start with self then it has no starting point and no reference. If it doesn't start with self then it has no framework to be effective. If it doesn't start with self then it has no source to project from and has nothing to teach anybody else. If it doesn't project from a source then it remains a vague philosophical concept that does little to apply itself.
Love learns to set boundaries and founders. They had them in the first century church and we need them today.
God loves me.
I'm not going to argue against him.
I love myself.
I begin to know love.
I love others.
IMHO this order is difficult to escape and it reflects upon the beauty of the good news of God's love.

Hey Bill.
Great points IMHO bro.
I'm going to check out your blog today, looking forward to it. Great to have you here!

Barry

[Amie]

"Love endures"

I used to think that means "love puts up with everything and allows people to abuse it". Today I feel that it means "love accepts the existance of" as opposed to "murdering evil". Love endures it.

The acceptance of its' existance doesn't mean the acceptance of its' infliction.. know what I mean?

Amie

[Paige]

The acceptance of its' existance doesn't mean the acceptance of its' infliction.. know what I mean?


Yes. Good point, and I think that is where many get hung up (I know that I have in times past.)

:)