144,000

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
On our train ride from Arizona the only person in the coach car with us was a Jehovah Witness. She was about 80 and really a very nice person. So she let us kind of pick her mind about what is a Jehovah Witness.
It turns out she was a Southern Baptist for 55 years and then converted. Her mom was so mad that she hung a sign in the yard that said she would shoot any Witness that came to her house.
I really never knew much about them. But she brought up the 144,000 mentioned in revelation. She said those are the ones going to be with the Lord, who according to her religion, came back in 1914. The conversation stayed kind and we just let her talk.
So I thought I would get some of your opinions on who the 144,000 are that John is talking about in his vision in the book of Revelation.
Any insight would be appreciated.
Nancy

[Paige]

Nancy,

Offhand, if my memory serves me correctly, that number alludes to the 12 tribes of Israel. 12 x 12 = 144. Magnified by 1,000 measures to completeness. Hopefully somebody will jump in here and correct me if I've misrepresented this...

Paige

[backtothefuture]

Hi Paige,
I knew that it referred to the 12 tribes, but I don't know what you mean by completeness. Some people think that only 144,000 people are going to heaven for some reason. I don't quite understand that part and I don't believe it, but was wondering what John was trying to say about that in Revelation. Thanks for the input.
Nancy

[Paige]

Hi Nancy,

As per the number 1,000 and what I meant by completeness. We see the number 1,000 popping up at various places in scripture. I think there is a Psalm that talks about God owning the cattle on a thousand hills. What is derived from that saying is not that somebody else owns the cows on hill number 1,001, but rather God owns all the cattle. So, 1,000 would be representing completeness or fullness - everything. Does that make sense?

If we break down 144,000, we get 12 x 12 x 1000. Rev. 14 tells us that these 144,000 are the firstfruits. Firstfruits is a term specifically related to Israel and seen in her feasts. The firstfruits were an offering of the first of the harvest, on behalf of the whole harvest. It was believed that if God accepted the firstfruit, it was a guarantee that the whole rest of the harvest would come in. Those that say only 144,000 make it in have completely ripped "firstfruits" out of its proper context.

I think the number is highly symbolic. Hope that sheds some more light on things...

Paige

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Paige.
What you explained really helped. Now I can explain it a little better to my hubby.:D
Blessings,
Nancy

[InChristAlways]

Hi Nancy,

As per the number 1,000 and what I meant by completeness. We see the number 1,000 popping up at various places in scripture. I think there is a Psalm that talks about God owning the cattle on a thousand hills. What is derived from that saying is not that somebody else owns the cows on hill number 1,001, but rather God owns all the cattle. So, 1,000 would be representing completeness or fullness - everything. Does that make sense?

If we break down 144,000, we get 12 x 12 x 1000. Rev. 14 tells us that these 144,000 are the firstfruits. Firstfruits is a term specifically related to Israel and seen in her feasts. The firstfruits were an offering of the first of the harvest, on behalf of the whole harvest. It was believed that if God accepted the firstfruit, it was a guarantee that the whole rest of the harvest would come in. Those that say only 144,000 make it in have completely ripped "firstfruits" out of its proper context.

I think the number is highly symbolic. Hope that sheds some more light on things...

PaigeGreat post!!

Preston Eby is a favorite commentator of mine and he had an extensive study on the assembly of "Thyatira" which has the longest letter written to it. Most of carnal "churchianity" avoids him because of his "alleged" Replacement Theology, but gee whiz, Jesus came to replace the OC Priesthood of Death with a NC Priesthood of Life. :rolleyes:

Here is part of what he says concerning the 144000:

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev47.htm

It should be obvious to every spiritual mind that the great multitude that no man can number is not the same company as the 144,000 sealed ones that can be numbered. Not that 144,000 is a literal number, but it is the number of divine government ascribed to a select called and chosen company who reign with Christ upon His throne. Both companies are described in the same chapter of the Revelation, chapter seven. But there is a difference!

Later, in chapter fourteen, the 144,000 stand with the Lamb (who is in the midst of the throne) upon mount Zion, again the figure of the throne, for king David ruled Israel from his throne on mount Zion (Rev. 14:1.

The "great multitude," however, is not "on" the throne — it is "before" the throne of God and the Lamb! Neither do they "rule" or "reign" over anything, but they "serve" God day and night in His temple, and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They are a blessed company indeed! They are very near the throne, and dwell in the light of the throne, and in the presence of Him who sits upon the throne, and receive great and eternal and unspeakable blessings from the throne! They are the vast multitudes of the redeemed out of the age who have walked with God in a pure walk in the Spirit in the measure of light they had.

[Paige]

Thanks ICA,

I think I've heard of Preston Eby before, but I'm not sure I've read much of him. I like the way he explained the passage, though. :)

Paige

[InChristAlways]

Thanks ICA,

I think I've heard of Preston Eby before, but I'm not sure I've read much of him. I like the way he explained the passage, though. :)

PaigeHis 33 part series on the Royal Priesthood is good but what I enjoyed a lot was the 7 part series in it that was just on Melchizedek! I would have a hard time writing a few paragraphs on it much less 7 full pages :)

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/priest/RP24.htm
The Royal Priesthood Part 24 of 33.

One of the most intriguing descriptions of the unique character of the High Priesthood of Jesus is found in Heb. 7:17 wherein it is stated, "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." This one grand statement shows that Jesus is not like any of the other priests who the people of Israel knew so much about.

The entire seventh chapter of Hebrews is about THE MELCHIZEDEK CONNECTION, that is, it is about the way Jesus Christ, and thus, His body, the Royal Priesthood, is related to a strange man named Melchizedek. And the connection between Jesus Christ and Melchizedek is worth exploring. Let's take a look at the Melchizedek Connection................
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In fact, if you combine the 2 greek words for one of the "jerusalems" mentioned in the NT, it comes out to "temple/priest/Salem.

Hierousalem (Strong's 2419) occurs 83 times in 80 verses:

Jeru-salem/ierou-salhm <2419>,


Matthew 24:1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the temple/ierou <2411>, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the temple,

Hebrews 7:1 For this Melchisedek, king of Salem/salhm <4532>, priest of God Most High, who did meet Abraham turning back from the smiting of the kings, and did bless him,