fulfilment spa

[Barry]

Welcome to fulfilment spa.
Relax and take a load off your shoulders.

Nancy and I were talking about a relaxing place to chat about some of the general points and implications of fulfillment.
Everyone is welcome but if ya want to depart from chat mode and enter into debate then we'll start another thread to keep this one really relaxed and easy going.

Questions are welcome and fellowship is the character of this spa!
Barry

[Barry]

Hey Nancy and everyone.
Fulfilment of all things written simply means that all of which the Old Testament promised was accomplished by AD 70.
What has be called the second coming, the judgment, the resurrection has been fulfilled.
While this is big news to many it is really just a matter of taking a closer look at the original setting in which the New Testament scriptures were written.

With Judgment behind us we look forward to the continual influence that fulfillment will have upon the world.
One of the greatest points to think about is the incredible love that God has for his creation. This is perhaps the most important point to make.

This raises a lot of questions and points for sure, so just bring something up and we will try our best to take it from there.
Don't be shy :)
Take a relaxing dip in our hot tub :)
Barry

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Barry!
Where would be a good place for me to start in scripture? Do I need a Hebrew translation? Would that help? And if all is fulfilled, what is God's plan now for us? Does he still answer prayer, do miracles, give out gifts? Do we need to be baptized? Confess Jesus as Lord? AGHHHHHHHHHHHHH
I would be happy with just one place to start.
This is a relaxing spa, so I don't want to get ahead of myself or get anxietied because I don't understand.
I do know that some (or maybe a lot) of my disappointment in my life has been looking at my faith from the wrong direction. Maybe God will hear the cry of my heart and lead me into the truth now. I am ready now. Bagel church taught me to be still and just wait.
Thanks for this place.
Nancy

[Barry]

Hey Nancy (and everyone).
It is obvious that if fulfillment has taken place then it is not really what we were expecting. This means that what we thought about some of those things you brought up needs to be looked at from a different angle than what most of us were taught.
Personally speaking I began to think about fulfillment before I had ever heard of it from anyone else. What really got me started were a few key points. They being:

It was clear that something had happened in the first century when the Romans came and destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70. This could not be denied. Historically we know that not one stone was left upon another of the temple.
This being the case then I kept getting stuck trying to explain how this was true to what Jesus was saying would happen and at the same time explain how in the world these first century Christians could have expected both something very shortly to take place and something else to take place much later.
In other words, how to you get 2 different second comings???
One in the first century which they knew was about to happen and some alleged yet to come "another" coming that would bring resurrection and the final judgment?
There just wasn't anything to grab hold of to make such a claim.

Another point:
On the contrary everything was pointing to every promise as about to come before that generation would pass away.
These scripture are never ending it seems. There are so many scriptures that point to a first century fulfillment of all things.
Heb. 10:37 really hit me over the head. So much so that the chills started running down my spine. I remember saying to myself, "Did the resurrection happen in AD 70?!!!"

3rd point:
Since then I got in contact with many who have studied these things through in a lot of detail.
The terms used for the resurrection now make a lot more sense. This takes some time and study to examine however.

We don't need to know Hebrew to understand but getting back into the Hebrew mind set does help to understand some things.

Baptism was for the changeover period. Like the water during the flood, it had its time when that destruction was taking place. Then the water resided and a new era began. Baptism was a way of starting a transformation getting ready for the new age to come. If they didn't get ready for the new age which was about to come then all they had as old covenant people would be taken from them. So those who were baptized were saved in a special way. Peter says they were saved through water.

perhaps this is a just a start.
One of the major points of fulfillment is relax, God loves you!!!
This sort of thing takes time to grasp. Be patient :) and keep up the questions and points if ya like.
Barry

[Dano]

Nancy,
I hope you don’t mind if I chime in ;)


“Do I need a Hebrew translation?”
It doesn’t take a special translation of the Bible. All it takes is your Bible. :)


“And if all is fulfilled, what is God's plan now for us?” I don’t know! Just live, love, and learn...
But what I do know is that whatever happened after “the end,” there, in a twinkle of an eye was a New Beginning.


Do we need to be baptized?
What Barry said, lol

Whatever you do, do it for the Lord. That’s the key; that God has accepted you. If you want to baptize today, why not! If not, it’s ok. If I put a stumbling block in your way, when you want to baptize, and say something like, “why do you baptize, you don’t have to!” I am not walking according to love.

Covenentally speaking, today, we are not “dying with Christ” when we are baptized. We are not in the shoes of the first century saints, working the changeover of the ages. We are in the Christian age that “was to come.” It came; it is here. Baptized today could be seen as being baptized into the Kingdom...heck, call it your hot tub!


“Confess Jesus as Lord?”
In my opinion, it’s more like, “with love I confess Jesus as Lord because I believe in Him.”
Not so much, because of fear “I confess Jesus as Lord so that I may stay saved.”

[davo]

And if all is fulfilled, what is God's plan now for us?

Hi Nancy, I'd say His plan for us is to share his goodness and love with those in our realm of influence -- how ever that may be. And as opportunity arises, letting those who are not aware know -- that God believes in them.

[christyG]

Nancy,

I find so honest and heartwarming. Your openness when sharing is great.:)

You sound just like me at times. Since my journey began I often wax in and out of new revelations and ideas and at times there seems to be nothing, and I don't know where to go next. BUT, then something else always comes up.

I've enjoyed this rollercoaster ride of learning and growing. And, just like life sometimes all the pieces fall into place and sometimes they don't, but we just keep plugging along anyway. I'm so addicted to the feeling I get when I learn new things that that is what keeps me going.

Great questions.

[Bill]

Nancy,

I echo what everyone else has said and I'd like to add a couple of new ideas to consider.

Under the Old Way they were baptized into Moses (the Law of Moses). Now were are baptized into Christ (the grace of Christ). To me that means those under the Old Way were baptized into striving while the New Way is baptism into fulfillment.

Also to say that Jesus is Lord is nothing more that saying that the Law is no longer the rule of life; the Law is no longer Lord. Confessing that Jesus is Lord is to say that we are resting in Christ's fulfillment of the Law in our place.

The Jews of Jesus' day thought that the Law of Moses was the way and the truth and the life. Jesus came to demonstrate that He, Himself was the way and the truth and the life.

Thanks so much for sharing your great questions with everybody!

Bill

[backtothefuture]

Thanks everyone for your input. I am just getting over a little flu bug so won't make a long comment.
I still would like to know where to start. A lot of you have been studying this for a while. If I just picked up my bible at Bagel church and said to myself, I want to read this book, like it was written to those it was written to, what book of the Bible would be the best to start with.
If I was sitting right now in 50AD in Jerusalem, what signs would be evident to me as a believer?
Just one more quick question, when you all started learning about infinite grace or fulfillment, did you feel like you had been duped by the system? Or were you thankful, that you still had time in your life to learn the truth.
Blessings,
Nancy

[Barry]

hey Nancy,
I'll start with this one if ya don't mind:

"If I was sitting right now in 50AD in Jerusalem, what signs would be evident to me as a believer?"

Let's say that it was just a little later in the mid fifties so to speak.
Jesus said that before the "end" the gospel would be preached to all nations (Matt. 24:14).
Paul announced that this had already happened (he wrote his letters in the mid fifties we think, about 15 years before the end came).
Rom. 1:8
Rom. 10:18
Rom. 16:26
Col. 1:6
Col. 1:23
Not the world as we know it today but the "world" that was in view at the time.
In making these statement Paul was telling the Christians that the end was coming increasingly closer.
In Titus 2:11-13 we see the same principle. Because the gospel had been preach everywhere there was a growing expectation of Christ's appearing in Judgement.

In 2 Pet. 3:12 it was the view of Peter that the obedience of the then present day Christians was actually "hastening the coming of the day of God".
Paul has a similar point in 2 Cor. 10:6.
This only touches the concept but is a starting point to see how these Christians were then anticipating the coming end of the age in the destruction of the then standing temple.
The Hebrews were told a similar point in Heb. 9:8. The first tabernacle or temple of the old covenant was still standing and they were waiting for its "taking down" to enter into the true holy of hollies in the presence of God.
Hope this helps just a little.
Barry

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Barry,
I am going to go lay down. I copied down all the verses you mentioned and am going to go read them.
If there still had to be Jesus returning in 70 Ad or so, What was the purpose of Christ at the cross at that time in History? If I was in the crowd the day Jesus was crucified and a believer, and a Jew, what dots should I have been connecting?
I only ask this, because many times on my walk with my husband I have said, that if Jesus came, died, came back like predicted, why are we all still acting like he hasn't come yet? Maybe that doesn't make sense?? Maybe its my fever talking;)
Nancy

[davo]

If there still had to be Jesus returning in 70 Ad or so, What was the purpose of Christ at the cross at that time in History?

Hi Nancy,

We know from Paul that that time in history was THE time and THE age wherein God in his wisdom determined that humanity "in Christ" would be brought back, reconciled and restored to himself.

The Cross was and is the decisive event of the coming of God into history -- the Parousia was the culmination event. The Cross and the Coming then are like book-ends to the ONE eschatological-redemptive work of God in history.

[Barry]

hey Nancy.
I think we have to change our expectations as to what that "coming" would produce.
You asked: "If there still had to be Jesus returning in 70 Ad or so, What was the purpose of Christ at the cross at that time in History?"
Let's start by examining what happened at his death. The veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.
What happened at his second appearance? Not one stone of the temple was left upon another.
We were apparently supposed to find more meaning in what it meant that that temple was to be done away.
In finding that meaning then we understand a little more what was really happening.
The old covenant economy was being replaced by a new economy.
The ministry of sin and death was passing away.
The old economy show divisions and separations between tribes peoples nations male female slave and free, Jew and Gentile ECT.
During the time between the veil being torn and the whole of the temple being destroyed there was a place where the old covenant had less impact. That was "in Christ" where there was in a sense neither male or female, Jew or Greek, slave or free. There was an appreciation of a common value to people "in Christ". This common value became comprehensive at the end of the temple.
God does not dwell in temples made with hands but in the hearts of people.
The end of the temple was seen to be the end of the old world.
Since that time much improvements have been made in many of the above areas. Women's rights in many countries, abolition of slavery in many countries and such things can be seen as the outworking of the new world order. There is a growing focus on common equality, common freedom, common brotherhood. These things do take time however. But all of these things would have been impossible under the old economy. They had no real staying power so to speak.
Hope this helps a little.
Barry

[Amie]

I only ask this, because many times on my walk with my husband I have said, that if Jesus came, died, came back like predicted, why are we all still acting like he hasn't come yet? Maybe that doesn't make sense?? Maybe its my fever talking;)
Nancy

It makes sense and it's honest. It's possible that humanity is as slow to realize that it is alive as it was to realize that it was dead.

I think that it reflects a feeling of helplessness in people. Like people can't put the world right without Jesus doing it for us (although he is in us), know what I mean?

I grew up pretty much with the fulfilled view, though I struggled to let go of my legalism and so considered the futurist paradigm.. Actually, I more than considered it, I dug into it hoping that it was right. I wanted it to be right because I wanted something to do here, that would evidence that my soul was saved from the lake of fire. (I was raised believing that the white throne judgement is continual and we all face it upon death) I wanted to feel secure about my children and husband too. I got what I asked for, though it wasn't within futurism.

So, my reason for hoping for the possibility of his coming was to keep doctrine.

Other folks have had difficulty accepting the fulfilled view - any takers as per sharing the reason?

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Hi Hi,
Thanks all for the posts. I guess I just need to study this more, not because i don't believe it, but I get frustrated trying to explain it. For instance, my husband is going through a rough time at work and last tonight was constantly talking about how terrible the world is and when Jesus comes back it will be so much better. But when I try to say things like, the kingdom is here and now, he goes nuts. I get that typical answer, "if this is all there is than forget it" People raised with the fundamental belief, are always looking for something better and thats not really what we are told in the Bible I believe. Then there are all those hard questions I don't know how to answer. Like, What about people that murder and kill and etc. You can't tell me they are going to heaven. We tend to think so much on a we win you loose mentality. So how do you tap into that Grace I have been thinking. I know this year I have experienced it. But trying to explain how that happened, I just don't know how to do it. Everyone is on their own journey. For me it was being broken. But that in the end turned out to be a good thing, because I just had to be for a season and that turned out to be ok.
Anyway, thanks so much for always taking the time to answer my questions.
Blessings
Nancy

[Paige]

Nancy,

I've run into the "if this is all there is then forget it" attitude as well. I don't know if any amount of words will help when somebody is struggling with that kind of thinking. Like you, God has brought me along to the point where I had to come to the conclusion that if there was absolutely no afterlife, is following God enough in this life. Is it worth it? The point is that nobody could rush me into the place where I could answer yes.

I do believe there is an afterlife, but the scriptures are about this life, IMO. So, there is an acceptance on my part that whatever comes my way in the here and now is "for me". There is a learning and a refining there, and who knows how God intends to use it in the larger picture. I don't really need to concern myself w/that detail, but rather live in it w/Him. Its not always easy. Uncertainty is one of the hardest things to live in, and we've (my family) lived it before. Once through, there is a great sense of relief, but I also know that we are never immune from it again. So, I continue to take each day as it comes.

I say all that to get to this point. God may not give you words for your husband. Possibly, your attitude and the way you live may be the only witness for His kingdom on earth today. I would encourage you to keep studying and pressing on because there is always that possibility that one day you are going to have an open door and a receptive heart just waiting for the message. Does that make any sense?

Paige

[Barry]

Really, Really good points Nancy!!

It can be very frustrating to know or suspect that there is very different and exciting way to see something and not be able to effectively communicate such things.
Well sis join the club LOL.
I've been at this for a while and I'm not sure how "effective" my communication is! LOL

A lot of times people are just not ready to hear another view that is so drastically different. It is up to us, as difficult as it is, to be patient with first ourselves then others around us. Part of the patience is knowing that God loves those around us whether they agree or not with our view of things. Yes we would like them to agree, yes we think they would be better off thinking the way we do, yes. But still, life is the way it is and everything in its good time. God has always been in charge and always will be in charge.

There is something to be said for the philosophy that we are exactly where we are supposed to be, at this time and so is everyone else. "He's got the whole world in His hands..."
Giving yourself and your husband and anyone else time could be your best approach (but that is just a thought). It means that if this new way of thinking can benefit you then let this truth have time to grow and manifest itself in your person. In this scenario people begin to wonder "Hey Nancy, your looking different lately, what's up?".
That's a good position to communicate from IMHO! If something is working for us then that might itself help out. And it can be very hard to communicate fulfillment to others when it is very new to us. Some of us have tried and got a little discouraged at first.
Those are just my thoughts sis. Take them with a grain or two of salt LOL.

You mentioned:
"What about people that murder and kill and etc. You can't tell me they are going to heaven"

Getting to heaven may not ever have been the issue of scripture but won't get into that now. However let's think this through for just a moment from the traditional view of things, which is:
You can murder, steal, kill, abuse, slander and then truly repent before you die, confess Jesus and everything you ever did wrong will be forgiven you and you will go to heaven.
That is pretty much the traditions view isn't it?
Now this is what happens as well in the traditional view:
You can try your hardest to live a good life and be kind and nice to people, and help them out often and be a better behaved person than most believing church goers but if you do not believe and confess Jesus as your Lord you will be eternally lost when you die.

So then (according the the popular traditional way of thinking) the person who, was pretty good so to speak doesn't make it because of a matter of ignorance about Christ and the person who lived most of their life doing hateful things but finds Jesus before they die is eternally secure.
It seems to me that this traditional view really does not have a problem with the evil that is done but rather has a problem with when confession is made!

This is IMHO very important to see. The real question we might have with accepting the embracing love of God upon the evil doer is not the evil doing but when the confession of Jesus is Lord is done.
Most Christians have no problem at all with accepting that a murderer can be saved if they repent before they die. So the issue is not with the evil. The issue is what then???

Perhaps we have been influenced to all our lives to get a good feeling about ourselves because we believe when someone else doesn't. Then we start to feel good about ourselves because we believe. We are always comparing ourselves with other people because we are trained to do so.

Now these above remarks are not there to say that we are bad to think like that, no not at all. Rather just to say that there may be a "better" way of looking at things. And I know Nancy that you are simply asking the question so my points are in no way meant as a reflection of your heart which I know is full of love. But rather is only a generalization on my part intended to look at this point from the angle of how these questions evolved in the first place.

Phil. 2:9-11 is an interesting text.
It seems to have all, even those of post mortem coming to confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father. WOW!
The idea that they are bowing just before being sentenced to hell doesn't make much sense at all and IMO does a disservice to the context of the text.

Sorry to ramble so much sis, just thought that spending a little time on this thought could possibly help us see a few things about what might really be the "behind the scenes" stuff.

When we really look at what the traditional view is and compare this to our questions we may gain some insight into our own thinking and the thinking of others and how we have been trained to think.
In the above question it seems that the "evil doing" really wasn't the issue. The topic seems to be whether the person confessed Jesus as Lord or not before they die.
By doing this then we can look more carefully at what we really believe and why we believe it.

If we have really been set free then we know that we can try to think things through as best we can and grow as best we can and even make mistakes and still be the grip of God's grace. IMHO we need that security.
Just my thoughts,
Barry

[backtothefuture]

Hi,
All you guys answers are so awesome. Barry, I have thought about much of what you have said.
I guess it still boggles my mind on how you all got to the place where you are. When I look at the path I have taken, I can see it all kind of weaving together and maybe I will spend the rest of my life learning and finally having some peace.
My husband, though very fundamental, has opened up this year and asked me some questions as my best friend. When I think of when I first started lurking on the message boards about 4 years ago, I was afraid to even mention to anyone what I was learning!!
I would like to know from any one who cares to answer, do you believe it was your search for the truth( starting to wonder about traditional teachings) or was it a revelation from God or just from within, that got you headed in this direction. Just curious.
I would also like to know, when the New testament talks about the "World" at that time. Just how big of an area or people are we talking about. We think now of course as the world as something huge. Was the world to those in that time, the Roman empire, Jerusalem, The Jews or Gentiles or both??
When John 3:16 says, For God so loved the World, I have been trying to think on that a little deeper.
If you had to fill in the blanks.
For God so loved the_____________??? (Humanity??)
Thanks everyone,
Nancy:biggrinbounce:

[davo]

Hi Nancy, this is how I read Jn 3:16:

"For God so loved the world [of Israel] that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever [of Israel] believes in Him should not perish [I]but have life into the age [about to come]."

We know from Paul that Israel's redemption was God's way [Jn 4:22] of bringing reconciliation to the wider world [Rom 11:15] -- thus the restoration of humanity [Rev 21:3].

I further read 1Jn 2:2 like this:

And He Himself is the propitiation for our [the first-fruits] sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world [all Israel].

Of course these have a wider scope in application, but they do so IMO through Israel.

Just a thought.

[Amie]

I would like to know from any one who cares to answer, do you believe it was your search for the truth( starting to wonder about traditional teachings) or was it a revelation from God or just from within, that got you headed in this direction. Just curious.

I feel that we are all born knowing Grace and somehow we loose touch - whether it be doctrine or something we do to ourselves.

I found Grace again after #1 trying to save my husband's soul by proving my doctrine with the bible, #2 trying on the futurist hat, and #3 researching the bible for an answer for my son about "hell". I didn't want to answer him with fear.

Like I said, I was raised believing that the "White Throne Judgement" was what we all faced after death and that the Lake of Fire was a post-mortem (afterlife) reality. I had only recently met some of the folks that are a part of these forums today when I began that search (about "hell"). It took a week for them to help me make sense of it, and give my son an assuring answer.

I had been working on my husband before meeting them, digging into the bible and disproving my own doctrine while doing it, lol!

I couldn't ever make sense out of futurist eschatology. Honestly I keep an open mind today about it, and still haven't made any sense of it.

What about you and your journey? How did you arrive where you are now?

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Amie for asking. Wow, I just don't know where to start. I was "Saved" In VBS at 10 years old. My 85 year old parents. brothers and sister have had no religious of spiritual anything. But I was drawn to it. When I was 11 a methodist church was built right at the end of my street. My parents didn't care if I went as long as it didn't interfere with their lives. So I spent my entire childhood in the church. At 22 my first husband picked me up at work and dropped me on my folks front porch never to be seen again, and I went into the Baptist church. Met my husband now of 27 years and were married in a Presbyterian church. We in 27 years have dragged our kids to the Pentecostal church, where I couldn't teach because I wouldn't ware skirts. Another Bible church where we were asked constantly if we were saved, 2 more Methodist churches where the pastors left. A another Bible church that had a split. A very Charismatic church where the pastor had A Porno problem, a reformed church and finally I ended up in a Calvary chapel where the pastor said my depression was due to sin and I l left never to go back. In between all this I accidentally came to the Preterist Archive about 4 years ago, while googling the tribulation. Somehow I ended up there. I was so afraid at first at what I was reading that I kept it in my favorite places for a year. But it really interested me. I was so burned out by now. Felt like such a failure in my faith and was starting to have a hard time thinking my entire family was going to hell because they didn't believe in basically anything. From there I went to your web site for a little bit and also the presence site. Always kept it in the back of my mind and lurked for a long time.
This last year, I read a lot of Chip Brogans stuff and it really calmed me and reassured me that leaving the church was not such a bad thing.
I personally feel I have been on one big journey to find what I call the Grace Place. After sitting in grief and pain and suffering these past two years, I really truly believe I didn't fine grace, but grace found me. I some days still just sit before God and say, I am broken, please help me. The difference now for me, is the peace I have about just being me, No matter what shape I am in. I also, was able this year to look into my husbands eyes for the first time in years and see their color. Bright beautiful blue. And thought to myself, how long has it been since I have noticed the color of his eyes. It was like instant Grace for me. I can't explain it. We have had tremendous healing in our marriage since then. I think it wasn't him changing, but me. I saw him with Gods eyes and that made such a huge difference. But I wouldn't have gotten to this place if everything hadn't been striped from me. My Christian counselor left the practice last year, my Steven's minister had a breakdown, my Christian doctors left and the church I was going to eventually disbanded. I was like, oh my gosh, what is going on. But it caused me to sit and read my Bible, mostly at bagel church and really lay every sorrow, pain, dream, my pride, everything at the cross. I would visually pick myself up everyday and lay me at the feet of Jesus. And my husband and Kids. I was able to trust for the first time in my life. At 54, God was teaching me about trust and grace. I feel so blessed now.
So grace found me on my wilderness walk. There were days I told God I hated him, Days I said I loved him, days I swore I would or couldn't ever believe a thing.
I wanted to get back into learning more about infinite grace. This is the neat thing. I tried finding Woman beyond. It wasn't in my favorite places anymore for some reason. I gave up and then I got an e-mail from you a couple of weeks ago telling me about this place. How cool is that!!
So I am taking it slow, just soaking in the news that God loves me. He really loves me. And because of that, I can love others. The best thing for me is now though, is that I don't have to know all the answers, I don't have to worry about what God is or isn't doing. A big burden was lifted off these worn out fundamental shoulders.
Thanks for all the comforting words.
Blessings.
Nancy

[Amie]

Nancy,

Isn't it strange how we are all always beginning at the end? ..the end of one story being the beginning of a new one?


I really truly believe I didn't fine grace, but grace found me

I wonder how often the case is that Grace is tapping us on the shoulder, whispering in our ears, or at times just wapping us upside the head and we miss it? Isn't it beautiful how it never gives up?

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Grace is a beautiful thing Aime. I was thinking last night, after reading in the book Stealing Jesus, in all the years of being a Christian, I have never once sat under a message on grace. So much fear and condemnation. What a shame. Talk about a low self esteem. There was no way, I was able to live up to certain standards. The truth does set you free!!
Growing up, I really believe I became a "Christian" out of fear. My goodness, all those Sunday School Tracks form the 1960's would be enough to freak anyone out. And people say todays video games are bad!!
Blessings
Nancy

[Barry]

My goodness, all those Sunday School Tracks form the 1960's would be enough to freak anyone out. And people say todays video games are bad!!
Blessings
Nancy

LOL , good point!

[Amie]

My goodness, all those Sunday School Tracks form the 1960's would be enough to freak anyone out. And people say todays video games are bad!!

LOL, good point!

I agree! Very good point! At least in the video games, they eventually die! (In much of Christianity, that doesn't happen)

Amie

[backtothefuture]

You have to realize that when I was a little girl in the dark ages, these Christian Tracks where the thing to give out, everywhere. Halloween especially. My mother in law (may she rest in peace) every year gave them out until she passed away 5 years ago. My kids never wanted to go to Grandma's to trick or treat.
In the early days, there would be pictures of people actually burning in hell. Flames, in bright red and orange. The devil always had horns and was in bright red!! Then after they passed them out, they would say God loves you and have a nice day!! Maybe I should explore this more. I have never been able to fall a sleep very well. Maybe I am Post traumatically stressed from them!!
Have a good day everyone.
I am going to try to be the face of Jesus today over at Bagel church.:biggrinbounce:
Nancy

[backtothefuture]

I have another question I have been thinking about for about 3 years. I would like your opinion or directing to some good articles on the Flood. I have wondered if it was indeed a global thing or just a local happening? Any thoughts?
thanks
Nancy

[Paige]

Nancy,

My opinion is that the flood was a local event. There is a really good series that Tim Martin is in the middle of putting out right now on PlanetPreterist. He hasn't put the whole series out yet, but if you go there you can click on his name in the author's column and read the entire series he has put out so far.

Here is a link to get to the site:

http://planetpreterist.com/

Paige

[backtothefuture]

Thanks Paige, will head there now!
Nancy

[sarahb]

"I would like to know from any one who cares to answer, do you believe it was your search for the truth( starting to wonder about traditional teachings) or was it a revelation from God or just from within, that got you headed in this direction. Just curious."

Hi everyone, it was wonderful reading about your experiences. So I'm not the only one lurking on the internet learning all types of sacreligius materiel :) . I am curious about fulfilled esto...preterism, (I can't spell that word so I will have to resort to the un-politically correct term)

I grew up in a pentecostal/assemblies of God church. About 8 years ago I earnestly prayed that I would know the truth. I felt a strong sense of 'count the cost'. Well, since then several bad things happened, but I am now free. Truth will isolate and brings lonliness of thought, but it brings great inner freedom. I believe the Lord supernaturally told me through a dream that hell wasn't what people thought it was, it was the 'grave'. Through a series of events I wound up at tentmaker, and have been eating it up. For the past year I would say I'm a universalist, although I hate labels.

I wanted to ask you all about tongues, prophecy, knowledge, the ministries, miracles, healing. Do people with a 'fulfilled eschology (sp?)' believe these have past away, or is it varied. What do you all think?

Also, does anyone know of a history channel type video that plays the history of the 70A.D. period?

Thank you, Sarah

[Paige]

I wanted to ask you all about tongues, prophecy, knowledge, the ministries, miracles, healing. Do people with a 'fulfilled eschology (sp?)' believe these have past away, or is it varied. What do you all think?

I find it to be varied. Personally, I am somewhat of a cessationist, in that I don't believe scripture is being written anymore. The Apostles (eye-witnesses) were martyrd before 70. (There is even some speculation that John's death could have been shortly before or right after.) From Corinthians, we are told that prophecy, tongues, and knowledge would be going away, but faith, hope, and love remain. I still believe that God acts, performs miracles, and answers prayer. We are face to face (in relationship) with God today, and this means there is no part of my life or circumstances that He is not intimately familiar with and sovereign over. God is my reality, and there is no escaping it(Him). I have read accounts of missionaries going into unknown areas and being given the supernatural ability to communicate with people in their own language. I believe this can happen still today, but the need is becoming less so all the time. Healing happened and still happens (does that make sense?).

As for a history channel or presentation, I'm not familiar with one.

Just some of my own thoughts,
Paige

[Barry]

Hi Sarah
I found this program very interesting a few years ago.
http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=73199

I don't know that it will answer your questions but it does set a historical perspective on some of what Jesus and the apostles were warning the people about.

Getting to what Paige said, look at the instant translation that we have on some online games on the Internet. Universal translation should not be too far away.
So Pentecost reversed Babel in a sense. Perhaps now it is being worked out in God's new age.

But the real point would be a change of relationship. The kingdom of God was at hand. Miracles testified of what was possible in God's possibility compared to an independent human possibility (Matt. 19:23-26).

The point then would be that God is not interested in destroying his creation but rather sharing with loved ones. That is what love does. It wants to share. But sometimes such things take time.
Since the relationship is now repaired (reconciliation of all things) because of Christ and the first-fruits Christians of the first century, the sharing relationship could begin to bring in its blessings.

An example of this is in "neither Jew nor Greek, neither male nor female" ECT.
We have made a lot of advancement in many nations concerning common equality, common brotherhood, and common liberty.
We have a long way to go but the movement historically is hard to deny.
A common value and worth between all is to be expected as a sharing experience from God since God is now "all in all".

We are no longer "in Adam". And Adam's headship was not designed to be immortal.

I know that this does not directly answer many of your questions. But we can enjoy our fellowship in the Lord as we learn together.
Just a thought

Barry

[Amie]

Howdee,

I find it interesting too that in 1 Cor 13:9-13, it reads that they "..know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect thing comes, then that which is in part will be caused to cease. When I was an infant, I spoke as an infant, I thought as an infant, I reasoned as an infant. But when I became a man, I caused to cease the things of the infant. For now we see through a mirror in dimness, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will fully know even as I also was fully known. And now faith, hope, and love, these three things remain; but the greatest of these is love."

What is it that they saw face to face? What do they know wholly now that was only known in part? How does prophesying in part, become whole?

Good discussion!

Amie

[backtothefuture]

Amie,
I believe that prophesy becomes whole when you accept who you are. Until then, you are living under half law and half grace if that makes any sense. We are not walking face to face until we have that revelation, for whatever reason that we are OK. God loves us period!
Knock and the door will be opened. Search and you will find. I think, lots of people here and at other forums are doing just that. Realizing that things were finished a long time ago. I still have groaning pains I call it on some days when I slip back into my old theology. But it doesn't hit me as hard anymore.
prophesy for and in my life became whole and fulfilled when I had that oh my gosh moment, there is something I have been missing for a long time.
Is my life still hard? It is. But there is a different "spirit" around my heart these days as I tackle life. Finally realizing that God is right here. I don't have to chase after God anymore. God is Not on another planet somewhere. (well I guess that can be debated:biggrinbounce:)
Anyway, may not be the answer you are looking for. I tend to think of things with my heart and not always my head.
Blessings.
Nancy;)

[Paige]

Nancy,

I don't think you are too far off. In fact, I wonder if the "prophecying in part" goes along somewhat with the saying, "Hindsight is 20/20." When looking back at what was accomplished and fulfilled, I think we have a much clearer picture than what we ever see that is beyond us. Didn't this make prophecy so very necessary to those living through the "last days"?

[Lou]

Hello Sarah,
My background is the Assembly of God also. This is a different world than what I grew up in. there was never peace with church for me just the threat of hell if I didn’t “live right.”
About a dozen years ago at a very low point in my life I told God I had had enough of Him and I didn’t care what He did I was through with him. The bolts of lighting or calamities didn’t come as I had been told I could expect for what I did. What I didn’t know that the path I took away from would lead me to the real God.
I came first to preterism though it took me some time before I found out that I wasn’t the only one that believed like that and what it was. A few years later I came to understand that God had reconciled all unto Himself.

As for the “Gifts of the Spirit” they were tools God gave to the first century Church. I am not saying that God doesn’t answer prayers for healing and speaks to us with visions and dreams but what the churches are doing today is using esoteric experiences for self exhalation. Tongues seems to be the only “gift” that they have, if the gifts were still for today you would see them breaking up funerals as much as you hear them babble.

BTW welcome.
Lou

[Amie]

Nancy,

I think that makes a lot of sense actually. Maybe the entire problem from the get-go was self-acceptance.

Lou,

Powerful story.

Paige,

I agree. Our sight is no longer looking forward to fulfillment, but glancing back at it and looking forward in the outworking thereof.

Amie

[sarahb]

Thank you for your responses everyone.

Lou said, "I am not saying that God doesn’t answer prayers for healing and speaks to us with visions and dreams but what the churches are doing today is using esoteric experiences for self exhalation. Tongues seems to be the only “gift” that they have, if the gifts were still for today you would see them breaking up funerals as much as you hear them babble."

I totally agree that "the gifts" have been used as self exhaltation. Believe me, I have seen my share of preachers speak that if you didn't pray in tongues for so many hours, then you weren't worthy; if you were sick, you didn't have enough faith; because there were alcoholics on the Indian Reservation, we didn't pray enough. The guilt was overwhelming and horrible.

That being said, after many years of not praying in tongues anymore, not praying at all, or reading my bible, I am beginning to feel the pull to pray again, in tongues, I don't know why. I don't understand prayer, but there is a beauty in praying in tongues, for me. It was during this time that God flooded me with His warm electric peace and told me that He was my righteousness, the first time in my life that I physically felt His unconditional love. One lady described tongues as being babble that is similiar to meditation. I'm not sure, but I don't think it hurts. I suppose I just follow my heart. When I look back over my life I realize that it was the spoken word-prophocy from others and directly from God to myself, that sustained me, it wasn't the written word. I suppose I take a strong stance that the gifts are for now, but I realize this is a spa, and I don't want to argue.

Thanks for having me.

Love, Sarah

[Barry]

Thanks for having me.

Love, Sarah

We have each other sis. I am yours and you are mine and we are God's.

Your strong stance on the "gifts" is cool!
Welcome to talk-grace.
Barry

[Paige]

Yes Sarah,

There is room for diversity in the kingdom. If you find what you are practicing to be beneficial, I see no reason you should stop. :shine:

Paige

[Lou]

[QUOTE]That being said, after many years of not praying in tongues anymore, not praying at all, or reading my bible, I am beginning to feel the pull to pray again, in tongues, I don't know why. I don't understand prayer, but there is a beauty in praying in tongues, for me. It was during this time that God flooded me with His warm electric peace and told me that He was my righteousness, the first time in my life that I physically felt His unconditional love.



Sarah everyone should speak to God in the way that is his or her way. Often churches want to tell people how their relationship with God should be instead of allowing everyone to develop what is best for themselves.

Lou

[sarahb]

"Sarah everyone should speak to God in the way that is his or her way. Often churches want to tell people how their relationship with God should be instead of allowing everyone to develop what is best for themselves."

I couldn't agree more. It seems that when a person finds his or her way, they think everyone should be like them. It is like teaching a whale to fly, or an eagle to dig holes. I had one pastor explain that he would pray on a tin can, with one arm stretched skyward to keep from falling asleep during prayer. I don't think he had found his way personally, I think he was in bondage, along with the fasting pastor, the 'praying in the spirit continually' pastor, the 'casting out devils' pastor, and the list goes on.